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Machiavelli - How the game of power is played, won and kept

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Winston
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Machiavelli - How the game of power is played, won and kept

Post by Winston » September 17th, 2016, 10:46 pm

Hi all,
For those of you who constantly expect politicians and businessmen and elites to have the same morals as the common people, and wonder why good honest people can't attain power or get elected, this explains why.

Niccolo Machiavelli was an Italian philosopher in the 15th century who wrote "The Prince", a book that elites love because it tells them how to attain power and hold on to it. He is considered the father of modern politics. His book explains why people can't succeed in business and politics by being a nice guy. (Do you think the Rockefellers achieved their monopoly on oil by being nice to everyone?) It pontificates why rulers and elites cannot have the same morals as common people, and why they cannot govern effectively by being nice and good all the time. And it explains why politicians and businessmen can't be good, clean and honest all the time, like people want. Also it says that it's better to be feared than loved if you are in power.

Machiavelli also states that one should not focus on what they believe society should be, but on how it is, so that one can deal with it more realistically. In other words, "get real" is his point. He wants you to drop any idealistic notions that will never work in reality. In his book "The Prince", he explains how to attain power and how to keep it, also how to control your subjects by fear, and how to divide your people and pit them against each other to prevent them from uprising against you.

Here are some short animated videos about Machiavelli's philosophy and teachings.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOXl0Ll_t9s[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SSV6mwPfTI[/youtube]

Here is the full audio book for "The Prince" by Niccolo Machiavelli.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr2HO8nV3Ws[/youtube]
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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World

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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by Winston » September 18th, 2016, 12:14 am

Some quotes by Niccolo Machiavelli. Aren't they so true yet cold and calculating? lol

"It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

The first method for estimating the intelligence of a ruler is to look at the men he has around him.

If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.

Men judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, for everyone can see and few can feel. Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are.

Since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved.

Where the willingness is great, the difficulties cannot be great.

There is no avoiding war; it can only be postponed to the advantage of others.

No enterprise is more likely to succeed than one concealed from the enemy until it is ripe for execution.

He who wishes to be obeyed must know how to command.

Never was anything great achieved without danger."

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... velli.html

"Men should be either treated generously or destroyed, because they take revenge for slight injuries - for heavy ones they cannot.

Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil.

Politics have no relation to morals.

There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things.

There are three kinds of intelligence: one kind understands things for itself, the other appreciates what others can understand, the third understands neither for itself nor through others. This first kind is excellent, the second good, and the third kind useless.

The more sand has escaped from the hourglass of our life, the clearer we should see through it.

Princes and governments are far more dangerous than other elements within society.

One who deceives will always find those who allow themselves to be deceived.

When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred.

Men rise from one ambition to another: first, they seek to secure themselves against attack, and then they attack others.

The promise given was a necessity of the past: the word broken is a necessity of the present.

There is no surer sign of decay in a country than to see the rites of religion held in contempt.

The main foundations of every state, new states as well as ancient or composite ones, are good laws and good arms you cannot have good laws without good arms, and where there are good arms, good laws inevitably follow.

It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have free scope.

It is not titles that honor men, but men that honor titles.

Severities should be dealt out all at once, so that their suddenness may give less offense; benefits ought to be handed ought drop by drop, so that they may be relished the more.

Whosoever desires constant success must change his conduct with the times.

The distinction between children and adults, while probably useful for some purposes, is at bottom a specious one, I feel. There are only individual egos, crazy for love.

A son can bear with equanimity the loss of his father, but the loss of his inheritance may drive him to despair.

Men shrink less from offending one who inspires love than one who inspires fear.

Men are so simple and so much inclined to obey immediate needs that a deceiver will never lack victims for his deceptions.

One change always leaves the way open for the establishment of others.

Men ought either to be indulged or utterly destroyed, for if you merely offend them they take vengeance, but if you injure them greatly they are unable to retaliate, so that the injury done to a man ought to be such that vengeance cannot be feared.

Hence it comes about that all armed Prophets have been victorious, and all unarmed Prophets have been destroyed.

The one who adapts his policy to the times prospers, and likewise that the one whose policy clashes with the demands of the times does not.

The fact is that a man who wants to act virtuously in every way necessarily comes to grief among so many who are not virtuous.

A return to first principles in a republic is sometimes caused by the simple virtues of one man. His good example has such an influence that the good men strive to imitate him, and the wicked are ashamed to lead a life so contrary to his example.

The wish to acquire more is admittedly a very natural and common thing; and when men succeed in this they are always praised rather than condemned. But when they lack the ability to do so and yet want to acquire more at all costs, they deserve condemnation for their mistakes.

Of mankind we may say in general they are fickle, hypocritical, and greedy of gain.

A prince never lacks legitimate reasons to break his promise.

Benefits should be conferred gradually; and in that way they will taste better.

Men are so simple and yield so readily to the desires of the moment that he who will trick will always find another who will suffer to be tricked."

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes ... achiavelli

“The lion cannot protect himself from traps, and the fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten wolves.”

“it is much safer to be feared than loved because ...love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.”

“Never attempt to win by force what can be won by deception.”

“People should either be caressed or crushed. If you do them minor damage they will get their revenge; but if you cripple them there is nothing they can do. If you need to injure someone, do it in such a way that you do not have to fear their vengeance.”

“Men are driven by two principal impulses, either by love or by fear.”

“All courses of action are risky, so prudence is not in avoiding danger (it's impossible), but calculating risk and acting decisively. Make mistakes of ambition and not mistakes of sloth. Develop the strength to do bold things, not the strength to suffer.”

“Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by the sense of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion.”

“Men are so simple of mind, and so much dominated by their immediate needs, that a deceitful man will always find plenty who are ready to be deceived.”

“Since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved”

“How we live is so different from how we ought to live that he who studies what ought to be done rather than what is done will learn the way to his downfall rather than to his preservation.”

“A man who is used to acting in one way never changes; he must come to ruin when the times, in changing, no longer are in harmony with his ways.”

“And here comes in the question whether it is better to be loved rather than feared, or feared rather than loved. It might perhaps be answered that we should wish to be both; but since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved.”

“The vulgar crowd always is taken by appearances, and the world consists chiefly of the vulgar.”

“It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage than a new system. For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit by the preservation of the old institution and merely lukewarm defenders in those who gain by the new ones. ”

“There is nothing more important than appearing to be religious.”

“A prudent man should always follow in the path trodden by great men and imitate those who are most excellent, so that if he does not attain to their greatness, at any rate he will get some tinge of it.”

“Wisdom consists of knowing how to distinguish the nature of trouble, and in choosing the lesser evil.”

“Men in general judge more from appearances than from reality. All men have eyes, but few have the gift of penetration.”

“Any man who tries to be good all the time is bound to come to ruin among the great number who are not good. Hence a prince who wants to keep his authority must learn how not to be good, and use that knowledge, or refrain from using it, as necessity requires.”

“He who becomes a Prince through the favour of the people should always keep on good terms with them; which it is easy for him to do, since all they ask is not to be oppressed”

“Everyone who wants to know what will happen ought to examine what has happened: everything in this world in any epoch has their replicas in antiquity.”

“One can say this in general of men: they are ungrateful, disloyal, insincere and deceitful, timid of danger and avid of profit...Love is a bond of obligation that these miserable creatures break whenever it suits them to do so; but fear holds them fast by a dread of punishment that never passes.”

“it is better to act and repent than not to act and regret.”

“It ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new. This coolness arises partly from fear of the opponents, who have the laws on their side, and partly from the incredulity of men, who do not readily believe in new things until they have had a long experience of them.”

“I hold strongly to this: that it is better to be impetuous than circumspect; because fortune is a woman and if she is to be submissive it is necessary to beat and coerce her.”

“Therefore the best fortress is to be found in the love of the people, for although you may have fortresses they will not save you if you are hated by the people.”

“I conclude therefore that, fortune being changeful and mankind steadfast in their ways, so long as the two are in agreement men are successful, but unsuccessful when they fall out. For my part I consider that it is better to be adventurous than cautious, because fortune is a woman, and if you wish to keep her under it is necessary to beat and ill-use her; and it is seen that she allows herself to be mastered by the adventurous rather than by those who go to work more coldly. She is, therefore, always, woman-like, a lover of young men, because they are less cautious, more violent, and with more audacity command her.”

“the wise man should always follow the roads that have been trodden by the great, and imitate those who have most excelled, so that if he cannot reach their perfection, he may at least acquire something of its savour.”

“But in Republics there is a stronger vitality, a fiercer hatred, a keener thirst for revenge. The memory of their former freedom will not let them rest; so that the safest course is either to destroy them, or to go and live in them.”

“Occasionally words must serve to veil the facts. But let this happen in such a way that no one become aware of it; or, if it should be noticed, excuses must be at hand to be produced immediately.”

“There is no other way of guarding against adulation, than to make people understand that they will not offend you by speaking the truth. On the other hand, when everyone feels at liberty to tell you the truth, they will be apt to be lacking in respect to you.”

“All the States and Governments by which men are or ever have been ruled, have been and are either Republics or Princedoms (oligarchies).”

“And yet we cannot define as skillful killing one's fellow citizens, betraying one's friends, and showing no loyalty, mercy, or moral obligation. These means can lead to power, but not glory.”

“It's better to be impulsive than cautious; fortune is female and if you want to stay on top of her you have to slap and thrust. You'll see she's more likely to yield that way than to men who go about her coldly. And being a woman she likes her men young, because they're not so cagey, they're wilder and more daring when they master her.”

“The Romans never allowed a trouble spot to remain simply to avoid going to war over it, because they knew that wars don't just go away, they are only postponed to someone else's advantage. Therefore, they made war with Philip and Antiochus in Greece, in order not to have to fight them in Italy... They never went by that saying which you constantly hear from the wiseacres of our day, that time heals all things. They trusted rather their own character and prudence— knowing perfectly well that time contains the seeds of all things, good as well as bad.”

“Being feared and not hated go well together, and the prince can always do this if he does not touch the property or the women of his citizens and subjects.”

“Men nearly always follow the tracks made by others and proceed in their affairs by imitation, even though they cannot entirely keep to the tracks of others or emulate the prowess of their models. So a prudent man should always follow in the footsteps of great men and imitate those who have been outstanding. If his own prowess fails to compare with theirs, at least it has an air of greatness about it. He should behave like those archers who, if they are skilful, when the target seems too distant, know the capabilities of their bow and aim a good deal higher than their objective, not in order to shoot so high but so that by aiming high they can reach the target.”

“And as the observance of religious teaching is the cause of the greatness of republics, similarly, disdain for it is the cause of their ruin. For where the fear of God is lacking, the state must necessarily either come to ruin or be held together by the fear of a prince that will compensate for the lack of religion.”

“It was the verdict of ancient writers that men afflict themselves in evil and weary themselves in the good, and that the same effects result from both of these passions. For whenever men are not obliged to fight from necessity, they fight from ambition; which is so powerful in human breasts, that it never leaves them no matter to what rank they rise. The reason is that nature has so created men that they are able to desire everything but are not able to attain everything: so that the desire being always greater than the acquisition, there results discontent with the possession and little satisfaction to themselves from it. From this arises the changes in their fortunes; for as men desire, some to have more, some in fear of losing their acquisition, there ensues enmity and war, from which results the ruin of that province and the elevation of another.”

“Therefore a wise prince ought to adopt such a course that his citizens will always in every sort and kind of circumstance have need of the state and of him, and then he will always find them faithful.”

“Minds are of three kinds: one is capable of thinking for itself; another is able to understand the thinking of others; and a third can neither think for itself nor understand the thinking of others. The first is of the highest excellence, the second is excellent, and the third is worthless.”

“The first way to lose a state is to neglect the art of war; the first way to gain a state is to be skilled in the art of war.”

“We have not seen great things done in our time except by those who have been considered mean; the rest have failed.”

“Nevertheless, that our freewill may not be altogether extinguished, I think it may be true that fortune is the ruler of half our actions, but that she allows the other half or a little less to be governed by us.”

“When everyone feels free to tell you the truth, respect for you dwindles… A wise prince should take another course: choose wise men for your advisors, and allow only them the liberty of speaking the truth to the prince, and only on matters about which you ask, and nothing else. But you should question them about everything, listen patiently to their opinions, then form your own conclusions later.”

“Thus it is well to seem merciful faithful humane religious and upright and also to be so but the mind should remain so balanced that were it needful not to be so you should be able and know how to change to the contrary.”

“One ought perhaps not to count Moses, as he was a mere executor of the will of God; he must nevertheless be admired, if only for the grace that made him worthy of speaking to God.”

“If you only notice human proceedings, you may observe that all who attain great power and riches, make use of either force or fraud; and what they have acquired either by deceit or violence, in order to conceal the disgraceful methods of attainment, they endeavor to sanctify with the false title of honest gains. Those who either from imprudence or want of sagacity avoid doing so, are always overwhelmed with servitude and poverty; for faithful servants are always servants, and honest men are always poor; nor do any ever escape from servitude but the bold and faithless, or from poverty, but the rapacious and fraudulent. God and nature have thrown all human fortunes into the midst of mankind; and they are thus attainable rather by rapine than by industry, by wicked actions rather than by good. Hence it is that men feed upon each other, and those who cannot defend themselves must be worried.”

“The Romans recognized potential difficulties in advance and always remedied them in time. They never let problems develop just so they could escape a war, for they knew that such wars cannot be avoided, only postponed to the advantage of others.”

“It is of the greatest important in this world that a man should know himself, and the measure of his own strength and means; and he who knows that he has not a genius for fighting must learn how to govern by the arts of peace.”

“But while it was their opportunities that made these men fortunate, it was their own merit that enabled them to recognize these opportunities and turn them to account, to the glory and prosperity of their country.”

“For, besides what has been said, it should be borne in mind that the temper of the multitude is fickle, and that while it is easy to persuade them of a thing, it is hard to fix them in that persuasion. Wherefore, matters should be so ordered that when men no longer believe of their own accord, they may be compelled to believe by force.”

“For, although one may be very strong in armed forces, yet in entering a province one has always need of the goodwill of the natives.”

“In general you must either pamper people or destroy them; harm them just a little and they’ll hit back; harm them seriously and they won’t be able to. So if you’re going to do people harm, make sure you needn’t worry about their reaction.”

“Women are the most charitable creatures, and the most troublesome. He who shuns women passes up the trouble, but also the benefits. He who puts up with them gains the benefits, but also the trouble. As the saying goes, there's no honey without bees.”
― Niccolò Machiavelli, Mandragola

“Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion.”

“Moreover, a Republic trusting to her own forces, is with greater difficulty than one which relies on foreign arms brought to yield obedience to a single citizen. Rome and Sparta remained for ages armed and free. The Swiss are at once the best armed and the freest people in the world.”

“Anyone who studies present and ancient affairs will easily see how in all cities and all peoples there still exist, and have always existed, the same desires and passions. Thus, it is an easy matter for him who carefully examines past events to foresee future events in a republic and to apply the remedies employed by the ancients, or, if old remedies cannot be found, to devise new ones based upon the similarity of the events. But since these matters are neglected or not understood by those who read, or, if understood, remain unknown to those who govern, the result is that the same problems always exist in every era.”

“Many have imagined republics and principalities which have never been seen or known to exist in reality, for how we live is so far removed from how we ought to live, that he who abandons what is done for what ought to be done will rather bring about his ruin than his preservation.”

“..it happens in all human affairs that we never seek to escape one mischief without falling into another. Prudence therefore consists in knowing how to distinguish degrees of disadvantage, and in accepting a less evil as a good.”

“I am firmly convinced, therefore, that to set up a republic which is to last a long time, the way to set about it is to constitute it as Sparta and Venice were constituted; to place it in a strong position, and so to fortify it that no one will dream of taking it by a sudden assault; and, on the other hand, not to make it so large as to appear formidable to its neighbors. It should in this way be able to enjoy its form of government for a long time. For war is made on a commonwealth for two reasons: to subjugate it, and for fear of being subjugated by it.”

“A prince ought to have two fears one from within on account of his subjects the other from without on account of external powers. From the latter he is defended by being well armed and having good allies and if he is well armed he will have good friends and affairs will always remain quiet within when they are quiet without unless they should have been already disturbed by conspiracy and even should affairs outside be disturbed if he has carried out his preparations and has lived as I have said as long as he does not despair he will resist every attack.”

“And he who becomes master of a city accustomed to freedom and does not destroy it may expect to be destroyed by it, for in rebellion it has always the watchword of liberty and its ancient privileges as a rallying point, which neither time nor benefits will ever cause it to forget.”

“He, therefore, who acquires such a State, if he mean to keep it, must see to two things; first, that the blood of the ancient line of Princes be destroyed; second, that no change be made in respect of laws or taxes; for in this way the newly acquired State speedily becomes incorporated with the hereditary.”

“He said that it always struck him with surprise that while men in buying an earthen or glass vase would sound it first to learn if it were good, yet in choosing a wife they were content with only looking at her.”

“Virtue gives birth to tranquility, tranquility to leisure, leisure to disorder, disorder to ruin...and similarly from ruin, order is born, from order virtue, from virtue, glory and good fortune.”
― Niccolò Machiavelli, History of Florence and of the Affairs of Italy

“Everything that occurs in the world, in every epoch, has something that corresponds to it in ancient times.”
― Niccolò Machiavelli, The Discourses

“I say that every prince must desire to be considered merciful and not cruel. He must, however, take care not to misuse this mercifulness. … A prince, therefore, must not mind incurring the charge of cruelty for the purpose of keeping his subjects united and confident; for, with a very few examples, he will be more merciful than those who, from excess of tenderness, allow disorders to arise, from whence spring murders and rapine; for these as a rule injure the whole community, while the executions carried out by the prince injure only one individual. And of all princes, it is impossible for a new prince to escape the name of cruel, new states being always full of dangers. … Nevertheless, he must be cautious in believing and acting, and must not inspire fear of his own accord, and must proceed in a temperate manner with prudence and humanity, so that too much confidence does not render him incautious, and too much diffidence does not render him intolerant.”
― Niccolò Machiavelli, The Prince

“And when neither their property nor honour is touched, the majority of men live content, and he has only to contend with the ambition of a few, whom he can curb with ease in many ways. It makes him contemptible to be considered fickle, frivolous, effeminate, mean-spirited, irresolute, from all of which a prince should guard himself as from a rock; and he should endeavour to show in his actions greatness, courage, gravity, and fortitude; and in his private dealings with his subjects let him show that his judgments are irrevocable, and maintain himself in such reputation that no one can hope either to deceive him or to get round him. That prince is highly esteemed who conveys this impression of himself, and he who is highly esteemed is not easily conspired against; for, provided it is well known that he is an excellent man and revered by his people, he can only be attacked with difficulty.”

“[As to the second case] ,that of being drawn into one [a trap or ambush] ...you must be shrewd about not believing easily things not in accord with reason. For example, if the enemy puts some b***y before you, you ought to believe that within it there is a hook and that it conceals some trick. If many of the enemy are put to flight by your few, if a few of the enemy assail your many, if the enemy turn in sudden flight,...you ought to fear a trick. And you should never believe that the enemy does not know how to carry on his affairs; rather, if you hope to be less deceived...and...run less risk, in proportion as your enemy is weaker, in proportion as he is less cautious, you should the more respect him.”

“The first opinion which one forms of a prince, and of his understanding, is by observing the men he has around him; and when they are capable and faithful he may always be considered wise, because he has known how to recognize the capable and to keep them faithful. But when they are otherwise one cannot form a good opinion of him, for the prime error which he made was in choosing them.”

“And it has always been the opinion and judgment of wise men that nothing can be so uncertain or unstable as fame or power not founded on its own strength.”

“When trouble is sensed well in advance it can easily be remedied; if you wait for it to show itself any medicine will be too late because the disease will have become incurable. As the doctors say of a wasting disease, to start with it is easy to cure but difficult to diagnose;after a time, unless it has been diagnosed and treated at the outset, it becomes easy to diagnose but difficult to cure. So it is in politics.”

“Men will not look at things as they really are, but as they wish them to be - and are ruined”

“A prince who is free to do as he pleases is unreasonable, and a people that is free to do as it pleases is not wise. If we consider princes restricted by laws and a people bound by laws, we will find greater qualities in the people than in the princes.”

“For a Monarchy readily becomes a Tyranny, an Aristocracy an Oligarchy, while a Democracy tends to degenerate into Anarchy. So that if the founder of a State should establish any one of these three forms of Government, he establishes it for a short time only, since no precaution he may take can prevent it from sliding into its contrary, by reason of the close resemblance which, in this case, the virtue bears to the vice.”
― Niccolò Machiavelli, Discourses on the First Decade of Titus Livius

“A prince is also respected when he is either a true friend or a downright enemy, that to say, when, without any reservation, he declares himself in favour of one party against the other; which course will always be more advantageous than standing neutral; because if two of your powerful neighbours come to blows, they are of such a character that, if one of them conquers, you have either to fear him or not. In either case it will always be more advantageous for you to declare yourself and to make war strenuously; because, in the first case, if you do not declare yourself, you will invariably fall a prey to the conqueror, to the pleasure and satisfaction of him who has been conquered, and you will have no reasons to offer, nor anything to protect or to shelter you. Because he who conquers does not want doubtful friends who will not aid him in the time of trial; and he who loses will not harbour you because you did not willingly, sword in hand, court his fate.”

“If princes are indeed superior to the people in enacting laws, in organizing civil governments, in setting up new statues and ordinances, then doubtless the people are so superior in maintaining what has been instituted that they increase the glory of those who instituted them.”
― Niccolò Machiavelli, The Prince

“there are two distinct viewpoints in every republic: that of the populace and that of the elite. All the laws made in order to foster liberty result from the tensions between them,”
― Niccolò Machiavelli, Selected Political Writings
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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by starchild5 » September 18th, 2016, 2:31 am

Due to the present age of darkness these kinds are flourishing....else, they would be flushed out...

There time of reckoning is coming...It cannot go like this for ever...BS will stop ...

These elites are pu**ies...Having high morals needs balls of brass ...Low morally corrupt souls do cheating, back stabbing to come on top....

Only in a twisted society created by darkness that these kinds of logic will be approved, if they try this trick on other Alien Species ..they would be kicked out...

I found the bodies of elites are totally different than us. They get easily possessed by dark forces...They are mere vessel's.

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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by The_Adventurer » September 18th, 2016, 5:48 am

So even back then women went for the bad boys.... :)
“b***y is so strong that there are dudes willing to blow themselves up for the highly unlikely possibility of b***y in another dimension." -- Joe Rogan

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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by Winston » September 18th, 2016, 11:48 am

The_Adventurer wrote:So even back then women went for the bad boys.... :)
That's not what the quotes are saying. They are saying that women respond better to strong men who put them in their place. They seem genetically hardwired to submit to men who shape them up and discipline them.

What do you think of the quotes above?
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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by The_Adventurer » September 18th, 2016, 2:52 pm

Winston wrote:
The_Adventurer wrote:So even back then women went for the bad boys.... :)
That's not what the quotes are saying. They are saying that women respond better to strong men who put them in their place. They seem genetically hardwired to submit to men who shape them up and discipline them.

What do you think of the quotes above?
"...and if you wish to keep her under it is necessary to beat and ill-use her; and it is seen that she allows herself to be mastered by the adventurous rather than by those who go to work more coldly. She is, therefore, always, woman-like, a lover of young men, because they are less cautious, more violent, and with more audacity command her.”

That's not a bad boy?

Nicco was obviously wise in the ways of rulership. Today, one might consider his words harsh, but it must be acknowledged that they hold true, especially in today's world. The stuff about deception being preferable to force, is this not exactly how rulers operate today? The idea that princes are not obligated to keep their word, is this not how politicians and rulers operate even now?

"One change always leaves the way open for the establishment of others. "

Isn't this exactly why we have conspiracies today?
“b***y is so strong that there are dudes willing to blow themselves up for the highly unlikely possibility of b***y in another dimension." -- Joe Rogan

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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by El_Caudillo » September 18th, 2016, 3:29 pm

Imagine if somebody like Donald Rumsfeld had a conscience like the rest of us? He'd be screwed.

I mean 'unknown knowns', can you get more Machiavellian than that?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnRB1QhOGko[/youtube]

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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by Adama » September 18th, 2016, 5:29 pm

At first I considered this man to be distinctly evil. Now I don't actually think he was evil. He just saw the system for what it is. The system is evil (amoral). He just learned how the system worked and wrote it down. Unfortunately, I do believe he is very correct in his assertion that bad things must be learned only so that when they arise, they can be avoided. This isn't to learn in order to institute evil, but rather to defend yourself.

These are games I'd rather not have to play though. It is a good thing that I am not a politician.

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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by Winston » September 18th, 2016, 10:24 pm

The_Adventurer wrote:
Winston wrote:
The_Adventurer wrote:So even back then women went for the bad boys.... :)
That's not what the quotes are saying. They are saying that women respond better to strong men who put them in their place. They seem genetically hardwired to submit to men who shape them up and discipline them.

What do you think of the quotes above?
"...and if you wish to keep her under it is necessary to beat and ill-use her; and it is seen that she allows herself to be mastered by the adventurous rather than by those who go to work more coldly. She is, therefore, always, woman-like, a lover of young men, because they are less cautious, more violent, and with more audacity command her.”

That's not a bad boy?

Nicco was obviously wise in the ways of rulership. Today, one might consider his words harsh, but it must be acknowledged that they hold true, especially in today's world. The stuff about deception being preferable to force, is this not exactly how rulers operate today? The idea that princes are not obligated to keep their word, is this not how politicians and rulers operate even now?

"One change always leaves the way open for the establishment of others. "

Isn't this exactly why we have conspiracies today?
That was a bad translation. This was the full quote:

“I conclude therefore that, fortune being changeful and mankind steadfast in their ways, so long as the two are in agreement men are successful, but unsuccessful when they fall out. For my part I consider that it is better to be adventurous than cautious, because fortune is a woman, and if you wish to keep her under it is necessary to beat and ill-use her; and it is seen that she allows herself to be mastered by the adventurous rather than by those who go to work more coldly. She is, therefore, always, woman-like, a lover of young men, because they are less cautious, more violent, and with more audacity command her.”

Another version:

“It's better to be impulsive than cautious; fortune is female and if you want to stay on top of her you have to slap and thrust. You'll see she's more likely to yield that way than to men who go about her coldly. And being a woman she likes her men young, because they're not so cagey, they're wilder and more daring when they master her.”

So I guess women in the 1400's were similar to today. Here is another quote about women that's true. lol

“Women are the most charitable creatures, and the most troublesome. He who shuns women passes up the trouble, but also the benefits. He who puts up with them gains the benefits, but also the trouble. As the saying goes, there's no honey without bees.”
― Niccolò Machiavelli, Mandragola
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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by Winston » September 18th, 2016, 10:30 pm

Here are some Machiavelli quotes that Adama will like:

"There is no surer sign of decay in a country than to see the rites of religion held in contempt."

“And as the observance of religious teaching is the cause of the greatness of republics, similarly, disdain for it is the cause of their ruin. For where the fear of God is lacking, the state must necessarily either come to ruin or be held together by the fear of a prince that will compensate for the lack of religion.”


These are true today. Maybe that's why the US government is becoming more tyrannical now? Because since people no longer fear God, the government needs to make people fear it in order to hold society together?

Btw everyone, the reason Machiavelli's book is called "The Prince" is because in Italy in those days, Italy wasn't a country with a monarch. It was divided into principalities that were ruled by Princes, kind of like how Germany was. So these Princes were the monarchs that ruled their principality or kingdom and had authority there. His book was designed to teach these Princes how to rule their kingdoms.
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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by The_Adventurer » September 18th, 2016, 10:36 pm

I have to wonder if he really knew Leonardo Da Vinci and Carlo De Medici as was depicted in the TV series Da Vinci's Demons.
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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by Winston » September 18th, 2016, 10:38 pm

Btw, is this the reason why many people here on this forum disrespect me? lol. It seems true. If you allow everyone to be honest with you in the name of free speech, they sort of lose respect for you right? It makes sense. But maybe we are an exception here because we are freethinkers though.

Niccolo Machiavelli:

“When everyone feels free to tell you the truth, respect for you dwindles… A wise prince should take another course: choose wise men for your advisors, and allow only them the liberty of speaking the truth to the prince, and only on matters about which you ask, and nothing else. But you should question them about everything, listen patiently to their opinions, then form your own conclusions later.”

“There is no other way of guarding against adulation, than to make people understand that they will not offend you by speaking the truth. On the other hand, when everyone feels at liberty to tell you the truth, they will be apt to be lacking in respect to you.”
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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by Winston » September 18th, 2016, 11:42 pm

Some great documentaries about Machiavelli and his teachings in "The Prince". Apparently, Napoleon, Stalin and Mussolini read and favorited the book. And Nixon and Henry Kissinger had the book on their bedside as well.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fphTuyJXTcQ[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DYFg4mnBjo[/youtube]
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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by Adama » September 19th, 2016, 12:44 am

Winston wrote:Here are some Machiavelli quotes that Adama will like:

"There is no surer sign of decay in a country than to see the rites of religion held in contempt."

“And as the observance of religious teaching is the cause of the greatness of republics, similarly, disdain for it is the cause of their ruin. For where the fear of God is lacking, the state must necessarily either come to ruin or be held together by the fear of a prince that will compensate for the lack of religion.”


These are true today. Maybe that's why the US government is becoming more tyrannical now? Because since people no longer fear God, the government needs to make people fear it in order to hold society together?

Btw everyone, the reason Machiavelli's book is called "The Prince" is because in Italy in those days, Italy wasn't a country with a monarch. It was divided into principalities that were ruled by Princes, kind of like how Germany was. So these Princes were the monarchs that ruled their principality or kingdom and had authority there. His book was designed to teach these Princes how to rule their kingdoms.
One thing which he disagrees with on you strongly is the right to bear arms. According to him, it is a necessity. He also tells us about how being unarmed is dangerous.

Hows that reconcile with your thoughts on gun control, Mr Wu?

As for respect, one thing I've noticed, is that you are indecisive, which is not a trait of a prince. And also at times whimsical. Also not princely. According to Niccolo anyway, from what I just read and heard.

Also, you give out too many shameful details about your women.

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Re: Machiavelli - Why elites cannot have the same morals as

Post by YourTrustedAdvisor » September 19th, 2016, 1:04 am

lol Winston, you're a pretty self-aware guy :mrgreen:

But then, if you didn't allow truth-telling, your forum would suck! :D

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