Italy Expat Report

[OutWest]

I agree there's probably an underlying psychological or emotional reason for his vitriol against Italy. I'm guessing a lot of it stems from serious disappointment and the fact that he expected a deeper connection because it's his ancestral homeland. It kind of reminds me of how Winston goes nuclear everytime you bring up Taiwan. However, Eurobrat's criticism has been very measured.

He's provided plenty of logical and concise points on why Italy is not a good place to live. He doesn't come across as raving or irrational in his perspective. Also, a lot of the points he brings up are points i've heard from an Italian friend of mine who doesn't read forums at all. That's a pretty big convergence of opinion i'd say..too big to be a coincidence.

From an economic standpoint if you compare Italy and Germany side by side it's pretty obvious Germany wins overall though. It's not even a contest really. The german unemployment level is also considered one of the biggest turnaround stories in the E.U. I've also heard of Berlin as being an underrated place outside of these forums as well.

I agree, had Public Duende just set expectations correctly and told the truth about Italy I probably wouldn't have been so damaged by this whole experience. Instead he did the opposite and made it out to be the magical candy land it isn't, where everyone is so nice to each other, sociable and fun and the food is magnificent. Instead I found out Italy is not a sociable place and definitely not for a foreigner without deep connections. The food was so-so and I don't get those who hype it up so much. Yea sure it was nice being surrounded by cheap pizzeria's all the time, but the pizza which mostly isn't even made by real italians anymore because Turkish and Egyptians stole the jobs and the Italians are too lazy and spoiled to even work in a pizzeria. I have no respect for most of the younger generation in Italy.

Also given that I had been to Italy a dozen times in the last 10 years and seen it get worse in that time, perhaps I should have known not to go. Instead I was stubborn and thought I could make it work. I can tell you this, I will never live in a place with a bad economy ever again because it does effect everyones mood and outlook on life and eventually yours too when surrounded by it.

Outside of being a tourist and enjoying cheap pizza in Italy for a few days and the historical sites, Italy and Italians have nothing to offer anyone when it comes to expatriating and finding a new home and trying to make yourself a life there.

Berlin is very underrated when it comes to side to side comparison of capital cities in Europe you have the following based on my opinion.

- London: Expensive, liberal anglo culture, too many immigrants and too touristy.
- Paris: Expensive, dirty, shit hole and has the rudest people in all of Europe. One of my most hated cities in Europe.
- Rome: Dirty, streets are crumbling and buildings falling apart, too many 3rd world immigrants, shitty people and too chaotic.
- Brussels: Boring, weird french culture mixed in with some flemish, good food.
- Zurich: Boring, stale, way too expensive, people are robotic and too quiet.
- Madrid: I haven't been but I have been to Barcelona and found it kind of chaotic and touristy.
- Vienna: Clean and quiet, people are a bit standoffish but the city has middle of the road pricing with good quality.
- Amsterdam: Fun but expensive, too many tourists in the high season, dutch people are nice and welcoming.
- Prague: One of my favorite cities in Europe, a little touristy but cheap outside the center, friendly people, great culture and rich history.
- Berlin: Friendly people, quiet and clean, not super touristy, prices are cheap for German quality, great international selection of food, lots to do.

Euro-

I am no kind of expert on Italy, but having lived in three countries in Latin America and two in Asia, I have learned a bit about the hazards of expatriation. I have seen men who seemed to be following what I think sage advice, who never the less, had bad experiences. Giving advice is like lending clothing- it does not always fit.

What mystical power did Public have to prevent you from leaving Italy after a month or two, with the conclusion that Italy was just not for you? Some men, buy the nature and makeup, are incompatible with another man's well intended advice. Perhaps you should realize this. Advice and experience are both dominated by individual taste, character and background.

You make it sound as if Public had some spiteful agenda. Based on what I have read of his travels and his conversations about the Philippines, which I know very well, he comes across as a man with a rather generous heart and a good traveler. He comes across as a man who does not assume too much, who is capable of adjusting his expectations and behavior to local conditions, and hence improve his results.

Yes, there are hazards in giving advice as well as taking it. You did continue in Italy though it should have been obvious in a relatively short period of time that it was not working out for you.
You come across as churlish and ungrateful to a man who made good faith efforts to be of help and gave of his own time.

I have been through quite a few countries- more than most, and some I liked a blot better than others, yet I have yet to find someplace where I could not find a niche to make my own. On quite a few occasions I found quite attractive girls inhabiting the same niche in fact.

Why would you let Public or anyone else own your experience? That is what you are doing when you blame him for his "bad" advice. Whether intended or not, you come across as a spoiled entitled young American (complete with the slights about Public's "old age") rather than someone who is looking to craft and own their own experiences and adjust to local conditions, or not (As in just leaving).

You could have had a bad experience in Italy, left much earlier if it was beyond hope, found nirvana in Berlin, and in the end ended up at some point having a pint with Public in London.
I do not know if you will come to see this, or just rage against that em-efer in London that screwed you over. I mean really, aren't you better than that?

[zboy1]

Publicduende, this is a warning: desist your attacks on Eurobrat or else I'm going to kick you off this forum.

[OutWest]

Publicduende, this is a warning: desist your attacks on Eurobrat or else I'm going to kick you off this forum.

What are you talking about? Have you lost it? Obviously they are having a "spat" and a somewhat informative and entertaining one, but neither one of them even come close to some banning level! lol

If you compare this thread with the hard core racist threads that are common place here,
or other "Attack" threads, this is clearly just two men having it out.

You have all kinds of crazy people posting here, supporters of mass rape and murder, just regular white trash racists spewing the usual sewage, some who are clearly seriously disturbed, and yet they continue to be able to post here.

Nothing Euro or Public have said rises to that level. Perhaps if banning is still possible, why not save it for some of the demented sociopaths that can still post here at will.

[MrPeabody]

My take on this is that EB didn't get any. Men go to shitholes like the Philippines and Pattaya and regularly spread the word all over the the Internet that these places are heaven on earth. Italian women are known as the most difficult to bed in Europe and it is a first world country so being an American gives you zero advantage and won't cover your personality defects.

[zboy1]

Publicduende, this is a warning: desist your attacks on Eurobrat or else I'm going to kick you off this forum.

What are you talking about? Have you lost it? Obviously they are having a "spat" and a somewhat informative and entertaining one, but neither one of them even come close to some banning level! lol

If you compare this thread with the hard core racist threads that are common place here,
or other "Attack" threads, this is clearly just two men having it out.

You have all kinds of crazy people posting here, supporters of mass rape and murder, just regular white trash racists spewing the usual sewage, some who are clearly seriously disturbed, and yet they continue to be able to post here.

Nothing Euro or Public have said rises to that level. Perhaps if banning is still possible, why not save it for some of the demented sociopaths that can still post here at will.

This is the Expat forum, where previously, I made guidelines that these sorts of spats would not be tolerated here. I no longer moderate the regular forum, so if you have problems with the main forum--pm Fschmidt since he moderates over there.

[eurobrat]

Euro-

I am no kind of expert on Italy, but having lived in three countries in Latin America and two in Asia, I have learned a bit about the hazards of expatriation. I have seen men who seemed to be following what I think sage advice, who never the less, had bad experiences. Giving advice is like lending clothing- it does not always fit.

What mystical power did Public have to prevent you from leaving Italy after a month or two, with the conclusion that Italy was just not for you? Some men, buy the nature and makeup, are incompatible with another man's well intended advice. Perhaps you should realize this. Advice and experience are both dominated by individual taste, character and background.

You make it sound as if Public had some spiteful agenda. Based on what I have read of his travels and his conversations about the Philippines, which I know very well, he comes across as a man with a rather generous heart and a good traveler. He comes across as a man who does not assume too much, who is capable of adjusting his expectations and behavior to local conditions, and hence improve his results.

Yes, there are hazards in giving advice as well as taking it. You did continue in Italy though it should have been obvious in a relatively short period of time that it was not working out for you.
You come across as churlish and ungrateful to a man who made good faith efforts to be of help and gave of his own time.

I have been through quite a few countries- more than most, and some I liked a blot better than others, yet I have yet to find someplace where I could not find a niche to make my own. On quite a few occasions I found quite attractive girls inhabiting the same niche in fact.

Why would you let Public or anyone else own your experience? That is what you are doing when you blame him for his "bad" advice. Whether intended or not, you come across as a spoiled entitled young American (complete with the slights about Public's "old age") rather than someone who is looking to craft and own their own experiences and adjust to local conditions, or not (As in just leaving).

You could have had a bad experience in Italy, left much earlier if it was beyond hope, found nirvana in Berlin, and in the end ended up at some point having a pint with Public in London. I do not know if you will come to see this, or just rage against that em-efer in London that screwed you over. I mean really, aren't you better than that?

Point well taken, but who the f**k are you to say that I put in absolutely no effort and I'm just some spoiled young american? That's just plain out wrong and now you're the one assuming and not me.

Where you there? Do you have any idea how hard I worked to get to Italy and make it work with all the different types of life issues we encounter when going abroad such as finding steady income to feed and clothe and put a roof over your head, making sure you are legally in the country, bank accounts, finding a decent apartment or room to rent, getting to know the city, the customs, learning the language etc. etc. I actually solved all of those except finding a social circle because the Italian people I encountered were too cliquey and closed off or I wasn't cool enough.

For anyone to say I just snapped my fingers and decided to go expat to Italy is insane. It took 2 years of planning for me, selling all my stuff, closing off ties in the US, actually more like 7 years if you count how long the Jus Soli process took with the Italians.

I stayed because I truly did intend on making it work, that's why I stayed. I tried as hard as I could but there's just no way to socially be accepted in Italy unless you grow up there. I have seen it and lived it.

At times I felt like his advice was pointless, which a lot of it was. And other advice he gave, I tried out and it was good so I followed it. In comparing with other Italians I found his advice dated and mostly completely useless, maybe he's not as spiteful as he comes off and maybe he's just aloof but a turd is a turd in my eyes. If his advice couldn't produce results as it didn't, then obviously his advice isn't worth anything. I made a few friends in Italy on my own accord who I now talk with regularly but that had nothing to do with Publics advice and had more with me being simply myself.

Just as you said advice is like clothes, well so are countries, people and cultures. I hate Italian culture and Italians but at least I gave it a shot and tried it out. I do feel much more at peace here in Berlin. It's more economically safe, it's clean and efficient, there's no more loud Italians around. I actually go out now and enjoy talking to the people, eating the food and taking in the culture and history.

You can sit here and fling shit at me from your keyboard through the internet, but in the end you have no idea how much I went through and how hard it was in Italy to just enjoy myself, the country, the people and the whole expatriating experience.

[eurobrat]

My take on this is that EB didn't get any. Men go to shitholes like the Philippines and Pattaya and regularly spread the word all over the the Internet that these places are heaven on earth. Italian women are known as the most difficult to bed in Europe and it is a first world country so being an American gives you zero advantage and won't cover your personality defects.

I already said I didn't get any. But I didn't get anything else out of Italy either. And no I didn't go to Italy solely for dating like guys go to the Philippines, it was more of a cultural journey and reconnecting with roots which I wish I had never done because it was a big waste of time, energy and money.

Have you even ever read any of my posts then you would know my story. Obviously you haven't.

[eurobrat]

Don't play the victim now, dude. I didn't spit on you, you spat on yourself with your latest threads. If these people really knew how much attention you got from me - hundreds of hours of voice and text chats over Skype talking to you, giving you advice and (not least importantly) being your punching ball for every time you wanted to vent your mounting frustrations - they would probably reach the same conclusion as me: there's something wrong with you.

I don't care what you think about me because I know you and your advice are a farce.

And I was joking when I said you have Asperger, don't bring that up as a proof of my ruthlessness. I did say, and I do believe though, that externalising all the responsibility for your actions, as if most of your life was played by somebody outside your body and your control, is a telltale sign of an autistic spectrum disorder.

I never said I wouldn't take responsibility for my mistakes. But go ahead, call me whatever name you want. I really don't give a shit at this point. Whatever makes you feel better.

I am criticising you and the way you've handled your "expat experience". With incredible immaturity. And blaming me all over the place is just the icing on the cake.

You have had your own trauma's which you didn't handle well, why can't I have mine? f***ing hypocrite.

[publicduende]

Point well taken, but who the f**k are you to say that I put in absolutely no effort and I'm just some spoiled young american? That's just plain out wrong and now you're the one assuming and not me.

Where you there? Do you have any idea how hard I worked to get to Italy and make it work with all the different types of life issues we encounter when going abroad such as finding steady income to feed and clothe and put a roof over your head, making sure you are legally in the country, bank accounts, finding a decent apartment or room to rent, getting to know the city, the customs, learning the language etc. etc. I actually solved all of those except finding a social circle because the Italian people I encountered were too cliquey and closed off or I wasn't cool enough.

For anyone to say I just snapped my fingers and decided to go expat to Italy is insane. It took 2 years of planning for me, selling all my stuff, closing off ties in the US, actually more like 7 years if you count how long the Jus Soli process took with the Italians.

I stayed because I truly did intend on making it work, that's why I stayed. I tried as hard as I could but there's just no way to socially be accepted in Italy unless you grow up there. I have seen it and lived it.

At times I felt like his advice was pointless, which a lot of it was. And other advice he gave, I tried out and it was good so I followed it. In comparing with other Italians I found his advice dated and mostly completely useless, maybe he's not as spiteful as he comes off and maybe he's just aloof but a turd is a turd in my eyes. If his advice couldn't produce results as it didn't, then obviously his advice isn't worth anything. I made a few friends in Italy on my own accord who I now talk with regularly but that had nothing to do with Publics advice and had more with me being simply myself.

Just as you said advice is like clothes, well so are countries, people and cultures. I hate Italian culture and Italians but at least I gave it a shot and tried it out. I do feel much more at peace here in Berlin. It's more economically safe, it's clean and efficient, there's no more loud Italians around. I actually go out now and enjoy talking to the people, eating the food and taking in the culture and history.

You can sit here and fling shit at me from your keyboard through the internet, but in the end you have no idea how much I went through and how hard it was in Italy to just enjoy myself, the country, the people and the whole expatriating experience.

Outwest might have never been there with you in Italy and probably never spoke to you, at least about your Italian experience, yet much of what he said, or better what he read between the lines, wasn't that far at all from the truth. This says as much about his perceptiveness as it says about the levels of insanity with which you penned your last few anti-Italy (and anti-Publicduende) posts.

You could have fooled Winston and those who still think Europe to be either some sort of magical, unexplored Shangri-La or a complete post-Soviet cesspit not even good as a US colony. Unfortunately, your "expat advice" cannot stick with those who happen to know Europe, or at least Italy, better than you.

Willing or nilling, I am in the (dubiously) privileged position to know exactly what went on in your life over the past couple of years. Yes, I understand you had made extreme steps to get rid of what was left of your US life and embark in what you believed would be the defining social/dating experience of your life. Unfortunately, you put all eggs in one basket and that basket caught fire while you were holding it and all you were left is one messy omelette.

Is this something I should have been advising you, like a momma or papa to a little kid? Wouldn't it be better and more mature to recognise your lack of judgement and move on, instead of wearing this big chip on your shoulder and bash on Italy and even myself as if we were the sole cause of your misfortunes?

So let me set the record straight: you put some effort, SOME, but by no means you should feel a hero for that. I did exactly the same when I landed in London in 1998, and didn't even have a native speaking friend available every day on Skype and the social networks, always ready to give you a word of advice, support or just plain listen to your rants. It's called "settling in a foreign country", and I know thousands of people who went through that process, very often worse equipped than you, with less money and less help and more trouble. They all saw themselves on the other side of the tunnel and - sorry if this seems too much for you - few or none seemed to ever make a big fuss about it, and certainly didn't harbour the kind of nasty regret and obsessive hate you seem to hold on to like Charlie Brown to his blanket.

Let me tell you why you stayed: because, as OW said in another post, you were way too invested in your own misery. You were absolutely revelling in it. The frustration mounted into anger and then plain blind hate, and all of this filled up your days. And a very important part of feeling spitefully alive was, obviously, that you wanted to throw your curses to someone who would listen, and care. And in that, unfortunately, you would still find me, albeit less and less often and more and more reluctantly.

My advice and I might well be a turd in your eyes, I accept that and honestly won't lose my sleep tonight (or any night). Trouble is, with your brain so filled with vitriol and hate, all your eyes can see is shit. It won't be long before Berlin will lose its veneer of cool and you'll find yourself alone in a gloomy, cold city, the same work from home min wage job with no prospects and no social interactions, the same fatty food, the same cheap beer sipped lonely in a corner, and the only thing to look forward to being which escort to burn your savings on next. I know it's a devastatingly cruel life scenario to wish anyone, let alone one I would once consider a friend, but perhaps the only thing that can set up your good judgement engine back in motion is a good reality kick. And you'll have it, sooner or later.

[publicduende]

You have had your own trauma's which you didn't handle well, why can't I have mine? f***ing hypocrite.

Even assuming the two traumas were remotely comparable, one was outside our control from day one, a Kafkaesque adventure into the unknown and the uncertain, the other was mostly a self-inflicted thing you chose to endure and continue to endure every single day. At some point I felt that you were literally feeding on hate. Well, no surprise you just had to let off all the bottled up sewage, and that's exactly what you did.

[eurobrat]

Let me tell you why you stayed: because, as OW said in another post, you were way too invested in your own misery. You were absolutely revelling in it. The frustration mounted into anger and then plain blind, and all of this filled up your days. And a very important part of feeling spitefully alive was, obviously, that you wanted to throw your curses to someone who would listen, and care. And in that, unfortunately, you would still find me, albeit less and less often and more and more reluctantly

That had nothing to do with it. I'm not one to give up easily on something I wanted, little did I know what I wanted was completely unrealistic and unobtainable i.e. Starting a life and being economically and socially secure in Italy. If Italians can't get it, then I can't get it.

My advice and I might well be a turd in your eyes, I accept that and honestly won't lose my sleep tonight (or any night). Trouble is, with your brain so filled with vitriol and hate, all your eyes can see is shit. It won't be long before Berlin will lose its veneer of cool and you'll find yourself with a gloomy, cold city, the same work from home min wage job with no prospect and no social interactions, the same fatty food, the same cheap beer and the only thing to look forward to will be which escort to burn your savings on next. I know it's a cruel scenario to wish anyone, let alone one I would once consider a friend, but perhaps it's good reality kick is what you need. And you'll have it, sooner or later.

I could actually smell the fecal matter spewing out of your mouth as you typed that up.

You really do think I'm some socially defunct retard but you know I have had plenty of friends and hot girlfriends not only in the US but also overseas. I even lost my virginity to an Italian in Prague. You know all this, so what makes you think I'm socially inept? Because I didn't like your (our) country?

Berlin works as an excellent base country, much better than Italy :gasp: There's actually jobs here, it's cheap, plenty of cheap alcohol to keep warm, the food is excellent with a world class restaurant scene and the people (even girls) are sociable and very relaxed. It's the exact opposite of Italy yet you find that hard to believe.

I had my kick in Italy and I kicked back, screw that shitty country and it's people. Unless big changes are made soon Italy has some very rough times coming up and I don't want to be apart of them.

[publicduende]

Let me tell you why you stayed: because, as OW said in another post, you were way too invested in your own misery. You were absolutely revelling in it. The frustration mounted into anger and then plain blind, and all of this filled up your days. And a very important part of feeling spitefully alive was, obviously, that you wanted to throw your curses to someone who would listen, and care. And in that, unfortunately, you would still find me, albeit less and less often and more and more reluctantly

That had nothing to do with it. I'm not one to give up easily on something I wanted, little did I know what I wanted was completely unrealistic and unobtainable i.e. Starting a life and being economically and socially secure in Italy. If Italians can't get it, then I can't get it.

My advice and I might well be a turd in your eyes, I accept that and honestly won't lose my sleep tonight (or any night). Trouble is, with your brain so filled with vitriol and hate, all your eyes can see is shit. It won't be long before Berlin will lose its veneer of cool and you'll find yourself with a gloomy, cold city, the same work from home min wage job with no prospect and no social interactions, the same fatty food, the same cheap beer and the only thing to look forward to will be which escort to burn your savings on next. I know it's a cruel scenario to wish anyone, let alone one I would once consider a friend, but perhaps it's good reality kick is what you need. And you'll have it, sooner or later.

I could actually smell the fecal matter spewing out of your mouth as you typed that up.

You really do think I'm some socially defunct retard but you know I have had plenty of friends and hot girlfriends not only in the US but also overseas. I even lost my virginity to an Italian in Prague. You know all this, so what makes you think I'm socially inept? Because I didn't like your (our) country?

Berlin works as an excellent base country, much better than Italy :gasp: There's actually jobs here, it's cheap, plenty of cheap alcohol to keep warm, the food is excellent with a world class restaurant scene and the people (even girls) are sociable and very relaxed. It's the exact opposite of Italy yet you find that hard to believe.

I had my kick in Italy and I kicked back, screw that shitty country and it's people. Unless big changes are made soon Italy has some very rough times coming up and I don't want to be apart of them.

Whatever, dude, whatever. www.miserableanywhere.com

[eurobrat]

Whatever, dude, whatever. www.miserableanywhere.com

You might be throwing up the white flag but I'm not. Things are just getting good after leaving the Italian dungeon.

[publicduende]

Whatever, dude, whatever. www.miserableanywhere.com

You might be throwing up the white flag but I'm not. Things are just getting good after leaving the Italian dungeon.

It's not a white flag, it's just that we both know this is a discussion fading into a pointless metaphorical boxing match, as Jester put it, with no winner and no prize. If you didn't do everything in your power to piss me off to no end and sweep away what was left of my respect for you, I would say the only prize is your happiness. Yet, you have quite a lot of burden of hate and regret you have to let go before you can see things under a positive (non-fake, non-posing) light.

[eurobrat]

Whatever, dude, whatever. www.miserableanywhere.com

You might be throwing up the white flag but I'm not. Things are just getting good after leaving the Italian dungeon.

It's not a white flag, it's just that we both know this is a discussion fading into a pointless metaphorical boxing match, as Jester put it, with no winner and no prize. If you didn't do everything in your power to piss me off to no end and sweep away what was left of my respect for you, I would say the only prize is your happiness. Yet, you have quite a lot of burden of hate and regret you have to let go before you can see things under a positive (non-fake, non-posing) light.

Good, you deserve it after what you did to me in Italy and I will never forget it. Maybe I will down the road after I get what I want, but still I'm glad I pissed you off after you threw me in the pit for the wolves to finish me off.