But then we'd miss out on a joke.droid wrote:
Hey dudes at least give people a minute or two so they can correct a posting error, no need to quote right away.
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Discussion for marriage-minded members seeking foreign brides for marriage and serious long-term relationships.
Can't argue with that
1)Too much of one thing defeats the purpose.
2)Everybody is full of it. What's your hypocrisy?
If a person's desire is to someone who is going to rule over them, does it need to say that they are going to submit? Are they going to be in perpetual war, with her seeking to control him and him ruling over her? Is God the author of confusion for you? Because that's what it sounds like. That God has made men and women oppose one another in marriage, but in every other place He makes it clear that women are to submit.
So the woman's punishment is that she will seek to control her husband? That she would be contrary to him? Amazing.
It certainly couldn't mean, in your mind, that her desire is to please her husband and that God has ordained for the man to rule over the woman. You'd much rather believe that God has set them in contention as her punishment, but that the man will rule. God is against contention, and against confusion of gender roles. It sounds like you believe that God has authored confusion within marriage.
Wouldn't it be the woman's punishment to submit if her husband has been ordained to rule over her? Doesn't ruling over someone imply that someone is going to be submitting to the ruler? Doesn't having desire to be with or to please the ruler mean that she is being submissive?
It's either that, or you truly believe that women are some deeply screwed up conflicted people, and that God made them messed up. That is at least as evil as saying He has authorized confusion within marriage through contention when He has made it clear He is against contentious women and that women should submit. Why would He make them not want to do that if that is His commandment? Because you're saying that God made women act contrary to His own commandments (that He made them not want to obey when He has commanded them to obey; that women's punishment is to be rebels against their husbands which is contrary to the Word of God), which makes no sense.
Seriously. What are you a scholar of? I am just curious what your expertise is in?
What is the context? Adam and the woman had sinned. The serpent had beguiled the woman. The serpent would have to crawl on his belly. The woman would desires desire would be to (or some would translate against) her husband, and he would rule over her. The ground was cursed for the sake of the man. He was going to have to sweat and toil. The ground would bring forth thorns.
Does it make sense that God's words to the woman here would be about the married bliss she would experience and how easy it is to submit? He tells the serpent he'll crawl on his belly. He tells the man about hard toil. Now the woman gets it easy? It's going to be easy for her to submit to her man now? How does that fit with the rest of the passage?
After the Fall, things are messed up. That doesn't make God the author of confusion.
Look at the context. This isn't a passage about how easy things are supposed to be.
Some Evangelical feminists want to make wives submitting to husbands a result of the Fall, and say that in Christ, it no longer applies. They want to make it a curse, and argue that we are free from the curse, and that therefore women no longer submit to their husbands. But Paul ties his instructions to wives and husbands to 'two shall be one flesh.' This is related to the creation. Man had headship before the Fall. He was created first. Woman was made for him. He named the animals. Then he named 'Woman.' After the Fall and the prediction of offspring, he gave his wife a specific name for her, 'Woman.' The man had the headship from the beginning. It doesn't start when God spoke these rules about man ruling over the woman. The link I posted deals with some of these issues. You should hear him out before passing a judgment.
When sin came into the world, sin messed people up. God told her some of the consequences of her actions.
Sin had an effect. I said I'm considering the interpretation. I need to do more reading. God did give some people over to a reprobate mind. They rebelled against Him, and He gave them over. David sinned with Bathsheba and set it up for her husband to die. God forgave him, but told him the sword would not depart from his house and told him other details of what would happen through the prophet Nathan.
II Samuel 12
11 Thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. '
Adultery is against God's commands isn't it? Sleeping with your father's wife is against God's commands? Absalom had a sinful heart and rebelled against his father and had sex with many of his wives (specifically concubines). Absalom bears the blame for that, also. If David hadn't committed this sin, maybe the Lord would not have allowed that to happen.
I could let you know by PM if you opened that up and wouldn't mind keeping it confidential. It's good to have that to take discussions offline. That's a good alternative for dealing with people on the forum considering some of the public conflicts we've seen here recently. My degrees aren't in the subject area we are discussing right now. The advanced degrees nothing directly to do with interpreting Biblical texts.
The ruling part is part of the punishment, just as the childbearing part. They are made to submit. It isn't a matter of ease. It is what comes naturally, which for some reason you don't understand. It is the rebellious women who are not wanting to submit, in violation of their role. What doesn't come naturally is their rebellion. That is contrary to nature.
And who cares what some feminists think? Feminists are mostly reprobates, rebels against God. I guess you won't be able to accept that either.
I think this discussion is at an end.
The verse you are quoting doesn't say anything about women having a submissive nature. Desiring someone and submitting to someone is not the same thing. Sin desired Cain, but did it submit to him?
If the natural man doesn't receive the things of the Spirit of God, then being 'natural' isn't always that good. There are good things about women.... and men.... who are made in the image of God. There are also bad things that come from the fall.
I was pointing out where your argument was in line with feminist thinking. A lot of feminists are in rebellion against God. I suppose a Christian woman could have some feminist ideas she needs to repent of. Women need to be discipled, too.
That's up to you as far as your part of it goes.
I think these discussions would go a bit better if you were open to hearing some other people, and not just assume you are right about everything. You seem to have a knee-jerk reaction against anyone who challenges an opinion you already hold to.
Submit and obient are loaded words. Who wants a woman that will not state what she thinks or wants and has no ideas? Ive had women that if you ask them where do you want to go on holiday or where do you want to go and eat and they only say you decide. It gets boring fast.
I already have a maid to do what i tell her. Why do i want another servant?
I also had women that want things their way. That doesnt work either. Only a weak man will accept this, or one afraid of being alone.
I prefer a woman that is a partner. That respects my oinion, asks my advice and gives input. Adds value to my life. Such a woman will also pack your lunch, make you a meal, scratch your back, respect you, look after you and will see sex as a way to please you, not just herself.
I dont want a door mat that hangs on to my every word and has no thoughts or opinions and just spreads her legs because she must. Is that how some see submission? If you want that perhaps a muslim wife is best.
I prefer a woman with life plans and interests. As long as they are compatible with mine and there is mutual respect. I have no mental need to totally control them and have a ja baas type of woman. Better if they are there because they love and respect me and figure together we have a good life. If he needs space for his man interests, let him have it. That is very hard to find. When you do, you value it.
If you yourself are unloveable as a vile bitter person, you cant expect willing submission. You only can hope for financial control of her, fear, controlling her movements and personal contacts. Will that make a man happy. More likely he will be a jealous wreck always wary she will find a way out.
Submission is not the same thing as no opinions and no initiative. It would be boring to be with a woman who had no ideas or opinions at all, or was too afraid to state them.
I'm sure Muslim wives have opinions about where to eat. I've spent a lot of years in a predominantly Muslim country. They have opinions, too.
Question: Who wants a woman that will not state what she thinks or wants and has no ideas?
Answer: Jonny Law
I'm not going to bother with you anymore. All these statements which you make just show a mind blowing level of confusion and blindness. You even think God is the author of confusion between men and women in marriage when He has made it clear He is against contentious women and against disobedient women. Yet you think He didn't make women to submit when in every place He is telling women to submit. You think He made women confused as a punishment so they would not submit even to God's laws, which is ridiculous. God is pure. God is truth. And God is righteous. He is not the origin of confusion. He certainly wouldn't make women evil, as your thoughts suggest.
Even these statements which you make here are outrageous and insane. If you can't see that it is as natural for the wife to submit to her husband just as it is for children to obey their parents, then there is something seriously wrong with your religion.
We've had enough discussion and it is clear you are under strong delusions. There is no reason to continue.
Some people have a caveman like view of submission and obedience into micromanagement and cruelty.
Besides that, good women have discretion. They are not robots. They know right from wrong. They don't need micromanagement.
And of course women have preferences of their own.
Everyone seems to equate submission with being empty-headed and brainless. That is not what submissive is. It means she submits to her husband, not that she is an ignoramus or fool.
And wouldn't a good man also seek to please his wife? People act like men are cruel. A loving man isn't out to crush his wife.
This is how infectious feminism is. Wow. A man who is in charge is seeking to oppress. They can't even believe that men can be good to good women. They believe that men seek to destroy women within marriage, to force them into sexual intercourse and to control their every movement. Just wow.
some people on here want exactly that: a woman who obeys, is uneducated, stays at home and slaves after them, and just agrees with them, was a virgin and just submits while they go f**k other women on the side. That is how they interpret submission. That seems more like slavery. They seem to think asian wives are more likely to be like that. The question is, do such men offer anything for a woman to want to submit? Or do they think just paying her meals and providing a roof is enough?
That mindset is neither Christian, nor is it very white. It is more in line with islamic thinking of total submission.
Well I don't know why you take their definition of submission as God's definition of submission. It doesn't matter what people want. What matters is the truth. You can't conflate some man's desires with what the truth is.
If God says women are to submit and to obey then that is what it is. For some reason people conflate submission and obedience with terrorism and destruction, as if God would be in favor of oppression and as if men are inherently desiring to destroy women within marriage.
Sick men seek to destroy women. Good men are not out destroying their wives. They are not out seeking women to destroy. They are seeking to live the way in which God has said, and that way brings forth peace.
What some men think of as submission is destruction. God's way is peace. I don't know how in the world people believe that God's way is destruction and how can they believe that the man's authority is truly tyranny. Not my life though.
The order is this: God > Christ > Husband > Wife.
And nobody has a problem with God saying that children are to obey their parents. But oh my, if they say women are to submit, then there are accusations of tyranny and destructive desires are implied.
My parents also told me that when evaluating a woman, watch how she treats OTHERS too, not just how she treats you. She can be nice to you if she likes you, but how she treats other people around her in general will reveal a lot more about her true nature and character.
Btw dianne tries to please me a lot. She is always happy to cook for me. So she would make a good wife. She is stubborn too sometimes. However i wouldnt say she's submissive. She has strong opinions about many things too. The reason we have very few arguments is because we happen to agree on almost everything, which is very nice and hard to find in a woman. Thus our personalities are very compatible. She doesn't need to be submissive anyway, since we already agree on most things, which is nice. So its easy to keep the peace between us.
Btw dianne and her family are Catholic. Catholics arent as devout or religious as fundies like Adama are, as you all know. But hey, at least they aren't atheists like most modern intellectuals are nowadays.
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