Why not to get involved with bar girls

[ladislav]

I am of the opinion that countries turn this or that face to people depending on the person's karma or whatever. I have lived in both countries for prolonged time periods and the Philippines has worked out for me better. But again, I speak both languages and act from the platform that I need to adjust to the local culture and act/go local. I learn languages and try and work my way into local cultures. The Filipinos respond to my approach better and do seem to be better to foreigners because there is 1) Christianity 2) English language education 3) much less nationalism /racism because the latter are a mixed race with no strong national /race consciousness.
There is a far higher percentage of Filipinas in all circles married to non Orientals than in Thailand based on my observation. And it has been much easier for me and a lot of other guys I know. Thailand had proven to be a wall with sullen faces and constant insults ( uttered in Thai, the language I speak). No such thing for me here in the Philippines and people do not insult me behind my back ( in Filipino).
In the Philippines I have dated girls who are of my class more or less with BA degrees and also professional ones. But again, I speak Tagalog fluently and 99.999999999999% of foreign guys do not. The level of anti-white/foreign guys prejudice is lower than in Thailand and once you speak Tagalog, you are treated very well. Just try and see. What other people's experience has been is their blessing and I am very happy for them.
If Thailand turned its kind face to the Aussie, more power to him and then he should be promoting its virtues here on this board because I will not. I have lived in Thailand in the Thai language and in the Philippines in the Philippine language. To me Thailand will forever be a land of sardonic, mocking smiles, sullen faces and people barking and croaking- farang, farang! So glad to have gotten out of there. The Philippines will be a land of greater acceptance, less mockery and more appreciation/less nationalism. This is my experience based on acting/going local in both countries.
How other people fared is an array of experiences that they should share here.

But again, the topic here is bar girls. Strongly recommended by me not to get involved in any way in that scene. For the mother of your kids, do you want a woman who dances on stage in bikini in smoked over go go bars, in front of drunken slobs who later grope her and take her to the hotel to bang? Who had been screwed doggy style by stinky middle aged men and who had performed fellatio on them? Just imagine that picture in front of your eyes. Is that the kind of wife you want? Is that the best you can get?

Then hit department stores here or get online and find some normal girls. And also see how many Thais and how many Filipinas advertise for foreign guys. I would venture that Filipinas are in enormous numbers while Thai girls are in far lesser numbers. This statistics are very hard to dispute.

[MrPeabody]

The difference between the normal woman and the bar girl/prostitutes is night and day. In Thailand, here are a few experiences I have had with normal woman - a woman offers to help me get a ticket at the BTS station when I first arrived here after seeing I didn't know how to do it, a lady sees that I am standing at the wrong pier for the river boat and comes up to me and tell me in English, a little girl runs up to me handing me something I dropped while I was walking on the sidewalk, a beautiful young Thai girl asks to have her picture taken with me after my English class, another hands me a post card as a gift and a message thanking me for teaching her English.

Mr. Peabody, just a word of caution. You sound like you are experiencing a sort of honeymoon period there. By all means, enjoy it and get the most out of it. Thais can be extremely warm, friendly, and helpful. I've had many experiences similar to what you describe above. But there is a very mysterious and always changing side to the culture plus a very ugly underbelly which you will likely become increasingly aware of should you decided to live there longer term.

Sometimes, people you have known for awhile and have built a strong mutual trust with can suddenly turn on you for strangest reasons (from a western POV). If you work in a company there, you may have very warm relations with your local colleagues for awhile. But then one day, you start getting the cold shoulder from certain people and next thing you know, you've become a persona non grata in the office environment - coworkers shun you for no apparent reason and even your boss starts to treat you badly. You may do many kind deeds or provide substantial help to certain people. But when the tables are turned and you need their help for something important, they may disappoint you bitterly. You never know until the relationship really gets tested. And I'm talking about regular Thais here, not the bar industry characters. These types of unfortunate scenarios can play-out for a foreigner in any country. But for some reason, they seem to happen quite frequently in the Kingdom of Thailand.

I'm not going to be here for much longer. However, something like that happened to a woman in my expat group when I lived in the Netherlands, and she was so disturbed by it that she moved to Germany. So, it can happen in any country where you are a foreigner, since you are high visibility and not considered part of the group. Rather, then making it sound so mysterious, it would be more valuable to find some specific reasons why these things happen. I know that one thing the school warned us about in their information of the culture, is not to show any anger in Thailand. You are expected to be calm even in difficult situations, and it is one way to make enemies quickly. It would be interesting to isolate and identify some of the other things that can go wrong.

[Rock]

The difference between the normal woman and the bar girl/prostitutes is night and day. In Thailand, here are a few experiences I have had with normal woman - a woman offers to help me get a ticket at the BTS station when I first arrived here after seeing I didn't know how to do it, a lady sees that I am standing at the wrong pier for the river boat and comes up to me and tell me in English, a little girl runs up to me handing me something I dropped while I was walking on the sidewalk, a beautiful young Thai girl asks to have her picture taken with me after my English class, another hands me a post card as a gift and a message thanking me for teaching her English.

Mr. Peabody, just a word of caution. You sound like you are experiencing a sort of honeymoon period there. By all means, enjoy it and get the most out of it. Thais can be extremely warm, friendly, and helpful. I've had many experiences similar to what you describe above. But there is a very mysterious and always changing side to the culture plus a very ugly underbelly which you will likely become increasingly aware of should you decided to live there longer term.

Sometimes, people you have known for awhile and have built a strong mutual trust with can suddenly turn on you for strangest reasons (from a western POV). If you work in a company there, you may have very warm relations with your local colleagues for awhile. But then one day, you start getting the cold shoulder from certain people and next thing you know, you've become a persona non grata in the office environment - coworkers shun you for no apparent reason and even your boss starts to treat you badly. You may do many kind deeds or provide substantial help to certain people. But when the tables are turned and you need their help for something important, they may disappoint you bitterly. You never know until the relationship really gets tested. And I'm talking about regular Thais here, not the bar industry characters. These types of unfortunate scenarios can play-out for a foreigner in any country. But for some reason, they seem to happen quite frequently in the Kingdom of Thailand.

I'm not going to be here for much longer. However, something like that happened to a woman in my expat group when I lived in the Netherlands, and she was so disturbed by it that she moved to Germany. So, it can happen in any country where you are a foreigner, since you are high visibility and not considered part of the group. Rather, then making it sound so mysterious, it would be more valuable to find some specific reasons why these things happen. I know that one thing the school warned us about in their information of the culture, is not to show any anger in Thailand. You are expected to be calm even in difficult situations, and it is one way to make enemies quickly. It would be interesting to isolate and identify some of the other things that can go wrong.

The reasons are numerous and varied depending on the context and specific circumstances. If you want to get a basic sense for whys in a quest to unravel some of the mystery, you could start by reviewing case studies from on-the-ground expats and Thais. Thailand has been studied, written and blogged about, analyzed, and field tested intensely by foreigners other Asians, and even some locals for many decades. There's all kinds of material out there and some of it is quite compelling and/or entertaining. Rising prosperity of recent boom periods and the rapid rise of tourism has affected the values of locals too, especially the younger generations. If you live there long (several years at least) and are switched-on and sensitive enough to pick-up on what's really going on, you will develop a sort of sixth sense. But I doubt you will ever be able to fully get into the head of a Thai if you didn't grow-up there. Of course learning the language to a high degree of fluency will help a lot. But, I've seen guys who remain fairly clueless in spite of language fluency here in Asia (not specifically just Thailand) and vice-versa. Without that sixth sense, you will need a cultural translator to help you understand when certain confusing things happen. This principal applies to various degrees for typical westerners living in other Asian cultures as well. Of course, the more you remain in your expat bubble, the less you have to deal with these fuzzy issues.

As your understanding increases, you will likely become disillusioned to a degree. As I've said before, there are still some die-hard localized expats, who speak and read Thai exceptionally well, some who also understand Lao and/or Khmer, who love Thailand, its people, and its culture. But for every one of those, you will meet scores of expats with similar language and local experience who either hate the place and its people or at least have a much more cautious and balanced view of things there. Lad is one of the more extreme examples but certainly not alone.

And there are lots of guys who've just been unlucky - wrong place at wrong time, wrong friends, wrong enemies, etc. In Thailand, you are not a foreigner so much as you are a member of a huge and fluid group which happens to have virtually no power in a land with an extremely corrupt justice system and a seemingly alien sense of morality. The more you get locally immersed, the more you can lose control of your circumstances. Some guys who take this route get real lucky but many other don't. Just as an example (kinda what you were grasping for above), if someone with a bit of social clout in your work environment happens to hate foreigners for whatever reason, the group dynamics can quickly move out of your favor. You may or may not eventually figure out why. But in any case, there's usually not much you can do. Companies and locals may screw you on contracts and laws just because they can. They know well how weak you are as a non-local.

In my own case, I am much more positive on Thailand and its people than Lad. But I see it as a place with severe limitations, a value-for-money playground for fun and unwinding more than developing serious relationships with Asian women. IMO, the Taiwan and its people just do a much better job at instilling healthy family, work, and life values in children. Thus, a garden variety middle class Taiwan woman is a much safer long term bet than her Thai counterpart.

BTW, I have learned that its sometimes necessary to go against some of the the generic advice out there on how to deal with Thais to get the most desirable longer term outcome, especially in business situations.

[ladislav]

Of course, the more you remain in your expat bubble, the less you have to deal with these fuzzy issues.

The best position to be in is:

1)being transferred by a big , solid and strong multinational/international company to a big office in Thailand where the Thais are employees and the farangs are the bosses and the flow of money is from the West to the East.
2) not speak the language and only associate with English speaking Western educated Thais/Thai Chinese because that is all you can talk to anyway; never learn it beyond a few phrases just to make yourself sound cute.
3) have a relatively big salary to allow you not to depend on the locals for any kind of help or advice and instead have them depend on you for hiring, employment, etc.
4) only have sex with bar girls in tourist areas and not get involved romantically. The main social pull of Thailand is taking care of one's family which is an enormous all devouring black hole which ruins both the Thais and the foreigners there and pushes people to do all kinds of things. It is a medieval peasant system which has no place in the 21st century but which nonetheless exists there.
5) marry an English speaking Western educated Thai who works at your company and send your kids to an international school.

You will see no evil, hear no evil and thus speak no evil.

The middle position is being a Western expat who is older but who is again living on money from overseas. Pensions, etc.

The worst is going there by yourself, trying to learn the language, making a living and building yourself from the ground up. These guys get treated the worst.
This type if immigration works best in the USA, not there. A new immigrant who is working hard, learning the local ways and trying to make money locally is the one who is honored in America. In Thailand, you are nothing but a piece of white trash farang kee nok, mocked and ridiculed daily.

[Winston]

Is there a reason why bar girls can't change? Why do they lack the ability for self-reflection, introspection and self-improvement? What's missing in them?

It goes back to the old saying "You can't turn a ho into a housewife." When women give their body to many different guys, it destroys their ability to bond with one man. Apparently there's some chemical in the brain that diminishes with each new sexual partner a woman has so basically they're not physiologically capable of being both sluts and monogamous people. After only a handful of partners it's virtually guaranteed they'll cheat on you.

You can take the whore off of the street but you can't take the street out of the whore.

Does it go the same for men too? Do our brain chemicals diminish with each sexual partner that we have?

But besides sex, what about morals? Why can't a ho develop good moral character, honor and integrity? Or become and intellectual/spiritual person?

[ladislav]

Does it go the same for men too? Do our brain chemicals diminish with each sexual partner that we have?

But besides sex, what about morals? Why can't a ho develop good moral character, honor and integrity? Or become and intellectual/spiritual person?

Men are more poly-amorous because our bodies make 200,000 sperm per day but women' bodies make just 3 eggs a month. The way nature designed us was I guess : the strongest and richest alpha male takes many partners, impregnates them and feeds them and raises families with them until they are strong enough to walk on their own- 7 years- that is when we start feeling the itch and we feel we want fresher and younger women to impregnate.

So, what was happening in old societies was that the rich and the powerful had numerous wives, most other guys just settled for less and many were bachelors. It is still the same way in many Muslim and African countries.

Then democratic societies interfered and more or less divided us equally.

Being a prostitute/slut is not natural. I do not think there is such a thing in nature- say, female apes doing it to get a banana or going nympho. Most women want to get one man and keep him and raise a family with him. They want a rich strong man and would rather be a second wife to a rich one than a first one to a poor one. This is still that way in many 3d world countries.

As far as morals go, I guess most guys would like to have many wives and exchange them for newer, fresher ones every seven years. In most Westerner societies, we are conditioned by religion to have only one, but again, the rich and powerful ones have wives and mistresses, while the poorer and less handsome/attractive ones just pour all of their urges into loving one woman. So, morals are a social construct and men will not be "ruined" if they are not followed. They will just go back to their basic urges which is polygamy.

As far as bar girls being reformed, go ahead and try. A very small percentage will be. Most are incorrigibly ruined.

[The_Hero_of_Men]

A couple of examples of why not to get emotionally involved with bargirls...

How do you know that the Thai girl is not actually telling the truth? You know that these shows and their "lie detectors" are rigged, right? I have been talking with this woman who was a former guest on the Steve Wilkos show. I saw the show myself; her (currently ex) husband took her on because he accused her of molesting their young daughter. Steve gave her a lie detector test (she denied it) and she failed it. She tells me that she is not guilty and that her husband is just dragging her through the ringer. The reason why I am giving her the benefit of the doubt is this: There is a reason that polygraph test results are INADMISSIBLE in a court of law (doesn't anyone here watch Law & Order)-- it doesn't take a psychopath to beat a polygraph test. They can be beat/deceived. Also, the woman told me that she had to sign a document agreeing to the fact that "the polygraph test can be altered for the sake of ratings". I do not remember the exact wording of what she said, but that was the gist of it.

With that said, yes, it may be unwise to get involved with a bar girl....

[MrPeabody]

A couple of examples of why not to get emotionally involved with bargirls...

How do you know that the Thai girl is not actually telling the truth? You know that these shows and their "lie detectors" are rigged, right? I have been talking with this woman who was a former guest on the Steve Wilkos show. I saw the show myself; her (currently ex) husband took her on because he accused her of molesting their young daughter. Steve gave her a lie detector test (she denied it) and she failed it. She tells me that she is not guilty and that her husband is just dragging her through the ringer. The reason why I am giving her the benefit of the doubt is this: There is a reason that polygraph test results are INADMISSIBLE in a court of law (doesn't anyone here watch Law & Order)-- it doesn't take a psychopath to beat a polygraph test. They can be beat/deceived. Also, the woman told me that she had to sign a document agreeing to the fact that "the polygraph test can be altered for the sake of ratings". I do not remember the exact wording of what she said, but that was the gist of it.

With that said, yes, it may be unwise to get involved with a bar girl....

Excellent point. How quickly we believe the Western media, when they are the biggest lying scum of everyone. And they always have their asses protected with the law. It's the West's way of lying. But the East is corrupt, so you better be careful.

[The_Hero_of_Men]

A couple of examples of why not to get emotionally involved with bargirls...

How do you know that the Thai girl is not actually telling the truth? You know that these shows and their "lie detectors" are rigged, right? I have been talking with this woman who was a former guest on the Steve Wilkos show. I saw the show myself; her (currently ex) husband took her on because he accused her of molesting their young daughter. Steve gave her a lie detector test (she denied it) and she failed it. She tells me that she is not guilty and that her husband is just dragging her through the ringer. The reason why I am giving her the benefit of the doubt is this: There is a reason that polygraph test results are INADMISSIBLE in a court of law (doesn't anyone here watch Law & Order)-- it doesn't take a psychopath to beat a polygraph test. They can be beat/deceived. Also, the woman told me that she had to sign a document agreeing to the fact that "the polygraph test can be altered for the sake of ratings". I do not remember the exact wording of what she said, but that was the gist of it.

With that said, yes, it may be unwise to get involved with a bar girl....

Excellent point. How quickly we believe the Western media, when they are the biggest lying scum of everyone. And they always have their asses protected with the law. It's the West's way of lying. But the East is corrupt, so you better be careful.

What did you mean by the East is corrupt? There are people who are innocent of things that fail polygraphs while there are those who lie but beat the test.

[Rock]

How do you know that the Thai girl is not actually telling the truth? You know that these shows and their "lie detectors" are rigged, right? I have been talking with this woman who was a former guest on the Steve Wilkos show. I saw the show myself; her (currently ex) husband took her on because he accused her of molesting their young daughter. Steve gave her a lie detector test (she denied it) and she failed it. She tells me that she is not guilty and that her husband is just dragging her through the ringer. The reason why I am giving her the benefit of the doubt is this: There is a reason that polygraph test results are INADMISSIBLE in a court of law (doesn't anyone here watch Law & Order)-- it doesn't take a psychopath to beat a polygraph test. They can be beat/deceived. Also, the woman told me that she had to sign a document agreeing to the fact that "the polygraph test can be altered for the sake of ratings". I do not remember the exact wording of what she said, but that was the gist of it.

With that said, yes, it may be unwise to get involved with a bar girl....

Screw the polygraph. I hardly considered that cus everyone knows they are far from 100% and can even be manipulated by some. I would have drawn the same conclusions even if the show claimed she answered truthfully to all 3 questions.

Just look at her demeanor and body language though. Consider the way she talks. She's cold as ice and her body demonstrates nothing but contempt for this guy. Now look at him. He's desperate to keep her and will tolerate a lot of shit to do so. He probably paid a handsome dowry and perhaps gave her family all kinds of additional money. So his sunk costs maybe quite high as well. In any case, everything he claims sounds perfectly credible, I would go as far as to say very likely, given the context - young and attractive Thai girl marries an older fat farang and moves to his country.

Lower class Thais can be very blunt at times, even to the point of being rude and insulting. But they also have a reputation with expats as being bald faced liars whenever it suits their purposes. If someone lies as a course of everyday habit, related emotion changes and bodily responses will likely dull over time.

[rome86]

hey ladislav I have thais roomates ..they can be very sneaky , quiet in a hypocritical way and sometimes give these mocking smiles .. my god and I forget to tell that they speak thai in your presence eventhough they know english ..I mean how impolite is that !!

[ladislav]

hey ladislav I have thais roomates ..they can be very sneaky , quiet in a hypocritical way and sometimes give these mocking smiles .. my god and I forget to tell that they speak thai in your presence eventhough they know english ..I mean how impolite is that !!

You are lucky you don't understand what they are saying, too.

[MrPeabody]

When I lived in the Netherlands, my co-workers would always speak English on the job, but if we were anywhere off site they would all speak in Dutch even though I was present. People prefer to speak in their native language when they are intimate and relaxing. I don't see the big deal here.

[Rock]

hey ladislav I have thais roomates ..they can be very sneaky , quiet in a hypocritical way and sometimes give these mocking smiles .. my god and I forget to tell that they speak thai in your presence eventhough they know english ..I mean how impolite is that !!

I got the same grief in uni when I had a French dorm-mate. The handful of French students would swing by for a coffee and then socialize completely in French to the point of being rude. And my rommie and I were pretty good friends on a 1-on-1 basis.

Anyway, my experience with groups of people from different language backgrounds is they usually revert to the language which is easiest or most habitual for most of them. This biggest exceptions to this in my life have been with people from Germanic countries, especially Scandinavians. Perhaps English is pretty natural for a lot of them. Even when I visit my current gf's home, the convo is dominated by Taiwanese even though they all (with the exception of the grandma) can speak good to excellent Mandarin.

[ladislav]

When I lived in the Netherlands, my co-workers would always speak English on the job, but if we were anywhere off site they would all speak in Dutch even though I was present. People prefer to speak in their native language when they are intimate and relaxing. I don't see the big deal here.

The difference is that they are in their country and in the Netherlands the national language is Dutch, not English. If they speak English it is a favor they do to you. Now, in the US or anywhere in the Anglo world it is rude to speak a foreign language in the company of people who do not understand it.

I have noticed that in Thailand or Phils. it is OK to speak any language you want and is not seen as rude even if the people present do not understand it, be they foreigners, locals, etc.