About the Philippines...

[Winston]

Well-informed,
I didn't say that I had a problem paying for a burger for a Filipina. You missed my point. I said I didn't like being LIMITED to the poorest of the poor. Usually girls are happy to chip in, but they can never chip in. And their family are total takers who don't contribute or help you.

Being limited to the poorest means I have to DESCEND DOWN into the gutter to get a date. That's a shame and dishonor to me. I came from upper middle class, so I should be able to date my own class.

Besides I am not really compatible with girls in poverty. Their nutrition sucks and their eating habits are barbaric and gross. It's like being with an animal, but one that is not in tune with nature. It's a total mismatch.

I said I've slept with many non-P4P girls, not that prostitutes give me free sex. Stop twisting my words. You waste my time when I have to correct you.

Sorry well-informed, but Dianne and many girls have a much higher opinion of my looks. Stop assuming that your asinine opinion of me is gospel truth and objective fact. It is NOT.

I told you well-informed, to stop commenting on my personal life. You only piss me off with shit comments when you do. And I don't like having to address your stupid questions. We either make a truce now, like I did with Phoenix Sosa, to not talk about each other's personal lives, or I ban you.

Which is it?

[Rock]

I have a friend who described doing things for women this way:

"Women CRAVE masculine leadership.
They willfully submit to anyone whom they trust is looking to show them a good time.

Women DESPISE a man who'll bend to her trivial whims. You may only compromise AS A FAVOR, but there must be a verbal 'contract of appreciation' - ie, she must ASK for the favour ("Please") and therefore guarantee she will appreciate your doing it."

Most men do not mind doing things for women that they are having a relationship with if the woman sincerely asks and then appreciates the favor - in this discussion money. It's when they expect it and don't appreciate it that there is a problem. If you still give them money in those circumstances, then you're being used.

This sounds right to me. Women are attracted to strength in men. If you are a soft touch and too easy with your money, will will quickly find yourself in the sugar daddy/santa clause role. Expectations will continue to rise while her appreciation of you will decrease.

On the other hand, if you are able to maintain control, and make her earn your rewards, she is much more likely to respect you. Don Steele, one of the old school dating gurus who focuses on older men / younger women relationships talks a lot about this in his books. I don't agree with a lot of his teachings but when it comes to his views on women being attracted to male strength and masculinity, I think he's right-on target.

[Rock]

I have no experience with the PI (though I'd like to in the future) but certainly can comment on the notion of men paying for women or their becoming alleged sugar daddies. Being a bit older and having been married twice I can say with absolute certainty that all women the world over want men to pay.

Let me repeat - all women cost $$. It's only a matter of whether you get your money's worth and whether they are appreciative.

In general, YES. However, quite a few exceptions can be found to this rule if you travel enough, open your eyes, and observe critically. Let me throw-up a few real life examples:

- One of my female friends (late 20s) in Taiwan took a trip to Nepal and met a man (early 30s) who ran his family’s small jewelry shop. She corresponded with him by phone and email for awhile. In time, she found out he was actually pretty poor. They talked about marriage and him moving to Taiwan but she was going to have to support him (pay all rent, food and living expenses plus ticket to Taiwan) he could not teach English or get work here. She thought seriously about it and got my advice. But the guy actually lost interest and stopped answering her calls and responding to her emails (probably found a better target).

- Sugar daddy vs. non sugar daddy: I have a couple of friends in Shanghai who approach women in a very different way. The first guy (Chinese American 50s) dates early 20s hot model types put pays them a monthly allowance of between RMB40,000 to 100,000 (US$6,250 – 15,625) for the privilege. The second guy (tall Jewish American mid 30s) dates early to mid 20s educated and attractive to hot girls and generally splits everything with them. They take turns paying at for restaurants and going out and the girls who live with him share the rent. Of course that turns a lot of girls off. But he is still able to find long term girlfriends who fit his specs and he’s picky about looks.

- Gits Ferrari (American poster on this forum who I’ve met) dated a local girl in Hsinchu for over a year. He was early 30s at the time and she was of similar age (though he never found out her actual age). She was making more money than him and paid for most of their dates plus gave him free use of her car. She also paid for a trip together to Shanghai but eventually demanded his share back when he decided to his own thing there and pretty much ditch her during the trip.

- Taiwan has “Friday clubs� where young and attractive men entertain female clients. Some of the luckiest guys end-up getting kept by wealthy women who fall for them and want to establish a longer term relationship. Similarly, Japan has gigolo clubs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upymOJCm030&NR=1

- In Bali, Indonesia, it’s fairly common to see Japanese and white girls and women tourists who rent a local companion, the man of their choice, as a tour guide with benefits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRgy4wiJVF0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq5Si3oSdkg

- Many of girls in Thailand and Kenya who have foreign sugar daddy type boyfriends use some or all of their ‘daddy’s’ money to support their local boyfriend. I know of specific examples in both countries. Same goes for prostitutes in both places. I’ve heard a similar dynamic plays-out in PI sometimes but know of no specific examples yet.

- My parents’ neighbors across the street are an example of a woman who has supported her husband throughout their marriage - the wife is from a well-off family with lots of farmland, the guy is a retired factory worker. They are both in their 70s now.

- In Beijing, a lot of the Nigerian guys find local girlfriends who help support them.

- In Pattaya, I met a 40s Scandinavian (friend of a friend) who was actually using his younger local girlfriend to scam lots of western guys off-the Internet to generate his only source of income. You could argue that the girl was supporting him in this case.

- I used to know girl in Taiwan who would ‘loan’ her Argentinean boyfriend a lot of money. Over the course of 2 years, the loans accumulated to over NT$1.5 million (~US$51,724). She never saw any of that money again. Who’s supporting whom in this case?

- A few years ago, I met an Australian Chinese girl in Zhuhai from a wealthy family who I ended up getting to know well. She was just early 20s but a bit overweight (like a lot of Aussies, lol). She admitted to me that she would be willing to financially support a man in a relationship if she really liked him a lot.

Also relevant to recent discussions here are some excerpts from a recent Stickman Bangkok column (Widespread BS so many foreigners believe about Thai women):

You pay for it with Thai women one way or the other

My #1 peeve, the way so many Westerners in Thailand believe that with Thai women, you pay for "it" one way or the other drives me crazy.

This myth is a pathetic attempt by those who frequently use prostitutes to justify what they get up to. They are effectively saying that a guy who sleeps with a Thai woman who is not a prostitute paid for it one way or the other, be it through dinner, movies, flowers and / or spending a lot of time with the lady. Guys who use prostitutes do NOT have to justify it and should refrain from making this stupid comment!

As any young and / or charming and / or handsome and / or successful guy who has had success with women anywhere in the world knows, women with an itch want it scratched! And they often don't want anything more than having that itch scratched! I am not talking about slappers, but decent women who quite simply enjoy decent sex from time to time!

Many Thai women seek out Western men from time to time for sex - sex and sex only - because they believe a Western man won't boast of his exploits to friends - and as such she will not be seen to be easy, and her reputation will not suffer.

The guy does not have to pick up the tab for anything. Often she will come to his place, do the business and leave. She may be very attractive. She may be highly educated and may have a great job. She wants that itch scratched and does not want nor expect anything more from the guy. There are thousands and thousands of such women in Bangkok online looking for this at any given time. She is not looking for anything long-term and does not linger around at his place, or suggest he buy her an IPhone.

One of the joys about Thai women is the lack of sexual hang ups. There does seem to be an attitude that sex is simply a bodily function, something that makes you feel good and as such it is something they wish to enjoy from time to time, even if they don't have a boyfriend. This attitude seems to be becoming much more widespread amongst younger Thai women i.e. those aged under 30.

You do NOT have to pay for it in Thailand! Do NOT listen to those who tell you otherwise!

Thai women are not concerned about a man's age

It is said that Thai women are not concerned about a man's age and that a Thai woman will marry a guy of any age.

It is true that Thai women are generally more open-minded about a man past his prime than their sisters in the West. With that said, the majority of Thai women seem to prefer a man around the same age as them, with a general preference for a guy who is perhaps just a few years older.

The older a woman is, the less concerned she becomes about the age of her partner and Thai women aged 45+ seem to be more relaxed about being involved and getting hitched with a much older guy.

Thai women do seem less concerned about smaller age gaps, with up to 10 years ok, and up to 15 years seems to be within acceptable limits. Once it goes beyond 15 years - especially if it is obvious that there are more than 15 years between them, things change a little, especially in the perception of others.

This myth is equally perpetuated by both Thai ladies and Western guys. Some younger women in the bar industry may tell an older guy that she is not concerned about the customer's age, and vice versa, the older guy marrying the younger woman will tell his friends and family that his age is not important to her. Look closely, however, and the number of marriages where there is a huge age gap between the partners is predominantly found with guys who met a girl in the bar industry. Large age gaps in relationships where the couple met through more conventional means are less common.

Thai women aren't concerned how a guy looks

It is said that Thai women don't mind how their guy looks. I would suggest is total fiction!

Thais are ultra image conscious and many believe that the way someone looks says more about them than anything else.

In Thailand, the way the people you associate with, and spend time with look - and act - is also considered to be very much a reflection on you. As such, a woman who is with a man who is rough physically, or who takes little or no pride in his appearance reflects negatively on her.

For Thais, the way you look is not just your physical condition, but just as much how you dress and how you present yourself. Someone who has let themselves go physically, but who wears tidy, clean clothes, and who has some fashion sense will generally receive a pass mark, irrespective of how large they may be.

Some foreign men in Thailand who have let themselves go claim that one reason they like Thai women is that these women do not care how they look like. Actually, they do - and they would very much like it if their guy shed a few pounds, got a decent haircut, dressed decently or at least appropriately for the place / occasion.

When Thai women talk about Thai guys, they may complain about him being overweight. However, you never hear them complain about him being too slim. He would have to be 6 foot tall and 50 kg or less to be too slim. So if they don't like their Thai guy being overweight, what does a well-rounded Western guy mean for them?

Thai women do look at the guy on the inside and the outside is not the be all and end all. Whether he is kind, gentle, polite and can adopt the traditional male's role are important to her. But looks ARE still important to her!

[Winston]

Rock:

- Sugar daddy vs. non sugar daddy: I have a couple of friends in Shanghai who approach women in a very different way. The first guy (Chinese American 50s) dates early 20s hot model types put pays them a monthly allowance of between RMB40,000 to 100,000 (US$6,250 – 15,625) for the privilege. The second guy (tall Jewish American mid 30s) dates early to mid 20s educated and attractive to hot girls and generally splits everything with them. They take turns paying at for restaurants and going out and the girls who live with him share the rent. Of course that turns a lot of girls off. But he is still able to find long term girlfriends who fit his specs and he’s picky about looks.

That's insane. Who would pay a girl 6,000 to 15,000 dollars a month to be his girlfriend? Even Hugh Heffner pays his playboy bunnies only about a thousand dollars a week in allowance. Why would this Chinese guy need to pay more than Hugh Heffner does? That's sad. And what kind of guy has that much extra dough to throw away? If he's that dumb, then how did he get all that dough in the first place?

Sheesh. A lot of guys here can't even afford the $800 round trip plane ticket overseas, yet they are smart, bright and awake.

[Rock]

Rock:

- Sugar daddy vs. non sugar daddy: I have a couple of friends in Shanghai who approach women in a very different way. The first guy (Chinese American 50s) dates early 20s hot model types put pays them a monthly allowance of between RMB40,000 to 100,000 (US$6,250 – 15,625) for the privilege. The second guy (tall Jewish American mid 30s) dates early to mid 20s educated and attractive to hot girls and generally splits everything with them. They take turns paying at for restaurants and going out and the girls who live with him share the rent. Of course that turns a lot of girls off. But he is still able to find long term girlfriends who fit his specs and he’s picky about looks.

That's insane. Who would pay a girl 6,000 to 15,000 dollars a month to be his girlfriend? Even Hugh Heffner pays his playboy bunnies only about a thousand dollars a week in allowance. Why would this Chinese guy need to pay more than Hugh Heffner does? That's sad. And what kind of guy has that much extra dough to throw away? If he's that dumb, then how did he get all that dough in the first place?

Sheesh. A lot of guys here can't even afford the $800 round trip plane ticket overseas, yet they are smart, bright and awake.

I had a big debate with the guy when he was last in Taipei (big-shot I mentioned before on this forum). I told him that guys like him were probably ruining the attitudes of many girls in places like Shanghai. He profited from Shanghai boom and became a multi-millionaire but just a few mil. So he's still not rich, just well-off. On the other hand, you could argue that Hugh Hefner is the master pimp on the planet. He makes his fortunes off the asses of those bunnies, lol.

[Rock]

1. Perhaps Korea and Japan are that way or have become that way. But even during my last visit to Seoul, the one day I was unaccompanied (not with my gf) a lone 20 year-old decent looking girl approached me while waiting for subway car to arrive, and asked me if I was lost (I had a confused look on my face and was looking around, he he). We ended up talking on the train for the whole ride and exchanged numbers and emails though nothing came of it of course.

2. In Taipei, female strangers may look difficult to approach. But if you have the balls to do it and don't act weird or creepy, some of them will exchange numbers and emails with you, at least with foreigners. And some of those can be successfully worked (unlike the crap numbers you get in US or UK). I met with Git the other day and he claims his experiences and those of his closer friends are in line with mine in that regard. I may write more about that meeting later in another thread.

3. For Philippines, I honestly don't know how easy or difficult it is to sleep with non-P4P young and childless girls you manage to date. I don't recall anyone ever addressing this directly. But a lot has been said about the large number of Filipina women who are traditional, very religious, and virgins. So connecting the dots, I'm assuming that in a lot of cases, you won't get sex from your non-P4P dates. If anyone is in the know here, please confirm or correct me.

4. As for premarital sex in Taipei, I can confirm its the norm. Girls will openly admit to having sex with their boyfriends and have done so for a long time. Some of them even talk about their sex lives on Facebook or blogs. Most of the girls I've dated were completely open to it once we got somewhat serious. Many others were open to casual non-monogamous relationships. Even some of girls who rejected me admit to having sex with others saying I was just not their type but was good friend material (ughh). My single female colleagues at work who became part of my social group, my current gf's sister, her friends, friends of friends, etc. all admit to having sex with their current or ex-boyfriends. The only exceptions I run-into here are Christian or Mormon girls, a very small percentage of the general population.

5. S. Korea actually has a lot of Christians so it may have a much higher percentage of virgins. I don't know though. As for Japan, I doubt girls are very prudish about sex. In mainland China, I found some of both, girls who were too conservative for intimacy and girls who were open to it. Overall, I found it to be more conservative than Taiwan.

Rock,
Wait a second. I wasn't talking about premarital sex with boyfriends. Any girl who has a boyfriend can have sex with him. That wasn't the point though. We were talking about casual sex type of girls who would sleep with anyone they found attractive. Remember? You said that in the PI, the girls were either P4P or super conservative and prudish, and that there didn't seem to be any casual sex girls. By that, I thought you were referring to girls who will sleep with any attractive guy they date.

I don't see how Taiwanese girls are better in this area. Are you claiming that the majority of Taiwanese girls will have casual sex with any guy they find attractive? Usually, if you ask them, they will say that they would only sleep with a guy they have known for a while and really liked or loved.

Also, NE Asian cultures are very conservative, so any girl having casual sex will not admit it out in the open, and certainly not in front of a large group of friends. She would only talk about it to her closest friends.

Do you have any stats that talk about how many sex partners an average Taiwanese woman has in her lifetime? I doubt that it's that high. But remember, we are talking about mainstream types, not fringe types.

You gotta date some non-P4P Filipinas and find out for yourself.

Btw, Dianne is not a P4P girl, yet we slept together on our third date. So regular Filipinas do sleep with you within a few days, if they really like you, I think. They aren't that hung up about it. In the province, there are many shy conservative types too, who are shy to talk to strangers. I guess it all depends.

But overall, I don't see any evidence that non-P4P girls in NE Asia are any more into casual sex than in the Philippines.

In general, NE Asian people are MUCH MUCH more hung up than Filipinos are. If Japanese girls, for instance, are much more reserved about talking to strangers, how can they be more open about sex? Remember that black guy we met at Kokomos, who lived in Japan? He said that Tokyo has something for everyone, but he admitted when I prodded him about it, that you CANNOT simply stop girls on the street in Japan and get their number. He admitted that it didn't work that way there, even if you're an exotic black guy like him. So I was not wrong about that. How could I be, for something so obvious?

Here is another case in point. One time, Dianne tried to get her picture taken with a cute Japanese kid, but her mom came and took her away, as if scared of strangers. She was hung up against having her kid get a photo taken with a stranger. However, the thing is, a Filipino mom would NEVER have a problem with you wanting to take a picture with her kid. They simply are not hung up about that kind of thing, whereas Japanese are.

So I have no idea where you and Terrence get this idea that Japanese women are so open, wild, loose, uninhibited, carefree, and not hung up. That seems to be 1000 percent fiction. I swear. Yet you seem to want to believe that NE Asians are wild and carefree, like it's some religion, when it is 1000 percent clear that they are not. Very odd and strange.

The example of the Japanese mom not allowing her kid to take a photo with Dianne is a classic example of how Japanese are to strangers. Ladislav concurred with this. And so did Dianne. A Filipino mom would NEVER have a problem with you wanting to take a photo with her kid.

That says a lot. It speaks volumes.

So I don't get why you religiously believe that NE Asians are more open and uninhibited. That contradicts reality 1000 percent.

::::::: scratching head ::::::::

Just to address the last part first, the logic barrier I often suffer in discussing Taiwan and NE Asia with you Winston is that you focus on how friendly people act on the surface (superficial openness or friendliness) whereby I concentrate more on how easy it is for westerns to ultimately score with attractive young women. The issues are related but the overlap is not absolute. Let me give you an example of how our arguments tend to go:

Rock: State Tower is the biggest building in Bangkok.

Winston: No its not. State Tower is just 810 ft. and has only 63 floors. Baiyoke Tower is 997 feet and is 85 floors. So you see, what you say is 1000% fiction!

Rock: Well Winston, I never claimed that State Tower was the tallest building in Bangkok, just the biggest one. State Tower has 300,000 sq. meters of floor space making it the biggest building not only in Bangkok but in all of SE Asia. Baiyoke Tower has just 179,400 sq. meters of floor space so it’s much smaller.

When you talk about how reserved people are about talking to strangers vs. how easy it is to find girls for intimacy, these are really two separate issues.

- I remember visiting National University of Singapore many years ago and running into some super friendly students. They invited me to hang-out with them, join their activities, etc. Most people in the big group talked to me a lot and were interested to know about me. It was pretty cool. But since they were a very serious Christian group, I don’t think I could have casually dated any of the women.

- One of the friendliest cities I remember visiting is Dubai. It was pretty easy to talk to strangers I met all around there. But once again, I don’t think I could have dated any of the women I saw.

- In spite of the NE Asian style ice barrier you talk about in Taipei, numbers can be pulled during the day. Conversations can be started in bookstores and coffee-shops. Follow-up can be pursued via phone, SMS, and email. It may seem awkward and often it is. But it works enough for westerners to make it very worthwhile IMO, very unlike the US or UK.

I didn’t realize that most Filipinas would have sex with their bfs. If that’s the case, that makes things better there IMO. Anyway, my impressions about PI are from very limited experience. If I manage to build-up time in country in several locals, my perception of the place could be turned upside down. I just wish there were more hotties and tall curvy types there, lol.

For Taipei girls, I would say many one-night stand opportunities can be found in the clubs which could be considered a fringe element. That’s not to say all girls in clubs do this but plenty do. And very slutty girls who don’t frequent clubs can be found too. But again, I think it’s just a small subset.

1 night-stands vs. girlfriends: Girls in Taipei will almost always get sexually intimate with steady bfs unless they are from a special background (church, etc), a fringe from the other extreme. But between 1night-stands and girlfriends, there’s a large ambiguous area – girls you repeatedly take-out on dates but who have not become serious with you. Usually, you can sleep with these types as well once she is familiar enough with you (unless she puts you in the friend zone which can usually be avoided if you know how to play it right). Sometimes, these girls will try to move the relationship into serious territory and other times, they wanna keep it casual (the latter happens a lot with foreigners).

In my own experience, I usually know within a few dates (1-5 weeks) if a new Taiwan girl I have met will ever get intimate with me. Although there have been exceptions, if it happens, it’s usually within the first couple of months.

Traditionally, I think regular NE Asian women have been more monogamous and have had fewer sex partners on average than their US/British counterparts. Personally, in Taiwan anyway, I have found this to work in my favor. Women are more sexually innocent and easy to excite and please. And as a foreigner, you are given license to go against local tradition to a degree. Until most recently, Hollywood movies and western TV shows (both very popular here) enhanced the perceived attractiveness of western men. As for stats, keep in mind, some weird things are happening in NE Asia now. People here are well-known to be family oriented and love kids. But birth rates have become lower here (Japan, S. Korea, Taiwan, HK, SP) than anywhere else on the planet. And I think over a third (33%) of Hong Kong women in their 40s have never been married nor had a baby.

When discussing Japan, my position is similar to that of the PI in that I have very limited personal experience. So I’m not qualified to discuss it in the same depth that I do Taiwan. I have seen very open looking Japanese tourist girls in Bali (with local guys) and in SoCal with black guys. And I’ve read about the practice of young boys and girls having multiple ‘sex friends’ in urban Japan. There’s actually a lot of weirder sounding stuff you read about contemporary Japan. But it all boils down to the size of different segments. A certain percentage of urban women there are probably very traditional (in the way you imagine) and another percentage can be broken down into the more wild categories. But I just don’t have any idea how big or small each segment is: it could be 99% traditional, 1% wild, 90% traditional, 10% wild, 50/50, etc. I really don’t have a clue about this.

I don’t believe anything religiously. My beliefs are subject to change and over time, with benefit of experience plus the reality of a constantly changing playing field, they often do. But if I believe something and you or someone claims something counter, I may debate you about it. If your arguments are sound enough and I can’t refute them adequately, I will change my position.

[davewe]

I have no experience with the PI (though I'd like to in the future) but certainly can comment on the notion of men paying for women or their becoming alleged sugar daddies. Being a bit older and having been married twice I can say with absolute certainty that all women the world over want men to pay.

Let me repeat - all women cost $$. It's only a matter of whether you get your money's worth and whether they are appreciative.

In general, YES. However, quite a few exceptions can be found to this rule if you travel enough, open your eyes, and observe critically.

There's always exceptions to any rule but it does not make it any less of a rule. Sure, when I was younger I knew plenty of girls who supported their boyfriends getting through college but it was always with the hope that said boyfriend would appreciate them, marry them, and later reciprocate.
Western divorce courts are filled with angry women who yell that they supported their husbands through college and then...

And of course there are always the dysfunctional relationships where the girl takes care of her bad boy boyfriend; she pays and maybe he even abuses her, but I doubt that's what most of us aspire to.

You're certainly right that some women just need that itch to be scratched and she may be attractive enough to get it scratched by a young, good looking Western guy. Course if the guy is that young and good looking he doesn't need to go abroad to scratch anyone, does he?

My only point was that having been married 20 years, to a woman with a job that paid as much as mine did, I just know that ultimately there is no free lunch. Just as men are hard wired to spread the seed, woman are hard wired to find a guy to "take care" of them and some kind of exchange is generally involved.

And as I said before, middle aged men are often shamed by both women and younger men with the notion that they can only get it because of cash. Tom Leykis often received calls from angry women who would say, "I saw your picture - you're fat and ugly. The only reason you get hot women is that you are rich and famous." Tom would say, "Being rich and famous is a big part of who I am. I worked hard to become who I am. That's what the women are attracted to."

The successful older guy who travels and finds younger women abroad to share his adventures, often attracts those women because his travels and adventures are expressing who he is. Of course any man with a couple of bucks in his pocket has to be careful. There will always be women who want to take advantage - even in America. So, I still maintain that there's always an exchange and as long as the "terms" are amenable to both parties, then all is good.

Sorry if I'm coming off as condescending; I'm trying not to be. But experience in life tells must of us older guys that everyone wants something and one should take advantage of what you've got to offer. If what you've got is youth, looks and muscles - make use of those. If what you have is experience, maturity, wisdom and a few bucks in the bank - by all means use those. It's all good and we all benefit. BTW, this is what I hope Winston will realize too.

[Rock]

I have no experience with the PI (though I'd like to in the future) but certainly can comment on the notion of men paying for women or their becoming alleged sugar daddies. Being a bit older and having been married twice I can say with absolute certainty that all women the world over want men to pay.

Let me repeat - all women cost $$. It's only a matter of whether you get your money's worth and whether they are appreciative.

In general, YES. However, quite a few exceptions can be found to this rule if you travel enough, open your eyes, and observe critically.

There's always exceptions to any rule but it does not make it any less of a rule. Sure, when I was younger I knew plenty of girls who supported their boyfriends getting through college but it was always with the hope that said boyfriend would appreciate them, marry them, and later reciprocate.
Western divorce courts are filled with angry women who yell that they supported their husbands through college and then...

And of course there are always the dysfunctional relationships where the girl takes care of her bad boy boyfriend; she pays and maybe he even abuses her, but I doubt that's what most of us aspire to.

You're certainly right that some women just need that itch to be scratched and she may be attractive enough to get it scratched by a young, good looking Western guy. Course if the guy is that young and good looking he doesn't need to go abroad to scratch anyone, does he?

My only point was that having been married 20 years, to a woman with a job that paid as much as mine did, I just know that ultimately there is no free lunch. Just as men are hard wired to spread the seed, woman are hard wired to find a guy to "take care" of them and some kind of exchange is generally involved.

And as I said before, middle aged men are often shamed by both women and younger men with the notion that they can only get it because of cash. Tom Leykis often received calls from angry women who would say, "I saw your picture - you're fat and ugly. The only reason you get hot women is that you are rich and famous." Tom would say, "Being rich and famous is a big part of who I am. I worked hard to become who I am. That's what the women are attracted to."

The successful older guy who travels and finds younger women abroad to share his adventures, often attracts those women because his travels and adventures are expressing who he is. Of course any man with a couple of bucks in his pocket has to be careful. There will always be women who want to take advantage - even in America. So, I still maintain that there's always an exchange and as long as the "terms" are amenable to both parties, then all is good.

Sorry if I'm coming off as condescending; I'm trying not to be. But experience in life tells must of us older guys that everyone wants something and one should take advantage of what you've got to offer. If what you've got is youth, looks and muscles - make use of those. If what you have is experience, maturity, wisdom and a few bucks in the bank - by all means use those. It's all good and we all benefit. BTW, this is what I hope Winston will realize too.

First of all, let me set the record straight. I sincerely hope you and Lad are right - that a guy, with just a modest amount of money by US standards, can continue to pull the finest young female specimens around the world throughout his whole life. Moreover, I genuinely hope that these women will feel sincere affection for such guys, be willing to commit to them, be faithful to them long-term, respect them, and enjoy being around them. If all that’s is true, then any of us who take the right steps to be that kind of guy have a lot to look forward to for the rest of our lives. That would be a big win and the dream of many men including myself. Trust me, I want all that to be true, very much.

But here’s the thing. I’ve been travelling and living overseas for a long time. I’ve spent lots of time in environments which are, by reputation at least, very favorable for men. I’m talking about countries like Brazil, Colombia, China, Cameroon, Kenya, Ethiopia, Mongolia, Thailand, Cambodia, etc. I’ve also read a lot of the literature published by marriage agencies and dating sites regarding age gaps in areas such as FSU countries, China, and the PI. I’ve noticed a few patterns about age and age gaps in relation to dating which seem to be almost universal so far:

- The overwhelming majority of local couples I observe in public are two people of similar age in all these countries.

- As far as young women overseas are concerned, a short and average or even below average looking western guy who is not above mid-30s is much more likely to appear on her radar screen than his tall and handsome counterpart who is apparently much older (late 40s or more) unless she's a gold digger.

- A new trend is occurring – a lot of younger men are travelling to these hotspots in search of better women for easy sex (prostitutes) or romantic relationships. And its affecting the attitudes and expectations of many of the girls. For example, I have an American friend who has been living in Pattaya for over 10 years. He tells me these days, a lot of the working girls, especially the younger and hotter ones, refuse to even go with older customers. Even in Angeles City, I noticed a lot of the better looking prostitutes walking with younger Korean or western guys during my last trip. Winston told me that a few years ago, you rarely saw young punters there. Now they’re everywhere.

- For westerners visiting poorer countries and dating locals, age gaps of 10-15 years is not a problem for majority of girls, 20 years is pushing the envelope but is more doable for man who looks young for his age + girl who looks mature for her age, 25-30 years or more is very rare and challenging.

- As for absolute age, guys up to 35 or so can usually be considered by girls in the 18-25 group, 40 is still pretty good, but late 40s and above gets damn challenging. 50 is a very tough age cus many of the most attractive 30 something girls who have never had children become more picky and demand a guy closer to her own age.

- Extreme age gap relationships are easiest for western men to pull-off in many African countries or other very poor countries such as Cambodia, PI, or Indonesia. But from my observations, the young girls who enter into these relationships tend to be less attractive and not popular with the better local guys. They are usually from impoverished families and desperate. Many are skinny, usually not tall, and some may even have health or drug issues. The real stunners in these countries can usually get decent foreigners or high class locals much closer to their own age. And in all honesty, that’s what they almost always prefer. A daddy complex may happen once in awhile, but not a granddaddy complex!

- The more credible marriage and dating sites I’ve seen which cover the age gap issue usually advise on 10-15 years max in places like Ukraine and Russia and 20-25 years max in PI. They also warn to avoid very young girls (18-22) unless you’re under 30 or so.

- As you acknowledged, many young women sometimes get an itch which they need to have scratched. If they are stuck with a much older man, they are going to be very tempted to find a younger guy to do the scratching once in awhile. Its just human nature.

- Perhaps I am less sensitive the gold-digging culture of American woman these days. My grand-parents on both sides, parents, most aunts and uncles on my dad’s side, and sister are/were all in fairly equal arrangements where both sides worked and contributed to household expenses.

- A guy as rich and famous as Tom Leykis is going to attract a lot of gold diggers plus fame groupies and can afford to actually buy women on his own terms. By now, he’s learned marriage is scam for guys like himself. A poor guy in the US who marries is fairly unexposed. But the guy with a few million US$ in net worth is in a very dangerous position if he marries a regular girl with minimal assets.

BTW, many of the members on Winston's forum are under 30. And most of them seem totally frustrated with the difficulty in dating American females. Hence, new competition is emerging overseas from the younger boys at home.

[Rock]

I have no experience with the PI (though I'd like to in the future) but certainly can comment on the notion of men paying for women or their becoming alleged sugar daddies. Being a bit older and having been married twice I can say with absolute certainty that all women the world over want men to pay.

Let me repeat - all women cost $$. It's only a matter of whether you get your money's worth and whether they are appreciative.

In general, YES. However, quite a few exceptions can be found to this rule if you travel enough, open your eyes, and observe critically.

There's always exceptions to any rule but it does not make it any less of a rule. Sure, when I was younger I knew plenty of girls who supported their boyfriends getting through college but it was always with the hope that said boyfriend would appreciate them, marry them, and later reciprocate.
Western divorce courts are filled with angry women who yell that they supported their husbands through college and then...

And of course there are always the dysfunctional relationships where the girl takes care of her bad boy boyfriend; she pays and maybe he even abuses her, but I doubt that's what most of us aspire to.

You're certainly right that some women just need that itch to be scratched and she may be attractive enough to get it scratched by a young, good looking Western guy. Course if the guy is that young and good looking he doesn't need to go abroad to scratch anyone, does he?

1. If its a choice between being the user or one that's being used, I would chose the former. I think Winston would too. But don't misunderstand. I've never consciously abused a girl or woman emotionally or physically. Do unto others...

2. A lot of active posters on this forum are under 30 and most are under 40. Several claim to be good looking, yet they DO want to go abroad to scratch itches. American women are not giving them what they want. It sounds like American women pass them over too, perhaps in favor of bad-ass thugs. Don't American women have itches which need to be scratched by regular men anymore?

3. Depends on your definition of 'rule'. Don't too many exceptions dilute it, perhaps to the point of it not being much of a rule? I mean if a rule were only valid, say 80%, 70%, or 60% of the time, is it still considered a rule? I don't know what the correct percentage is for women who cost money, maybe around 85%? But its certainly not 'all women'.

[steve55]

They also warn to avoid very young girls (18-22) unless you’re under 30 or so.

Rock, my first 2 fiances who changed their minds (both about 4-6 weeks before the USCIS interview date) were 19-20 yrs old. I was 35 the 1st time and 38 the 2nd time. Im 43 now.

[Rock]

And as I said before, middle aged men are often shamed by both women and younger men with the notion that they can only get it because of cash. Tom Leykis often received calls from angry women who would say, "I saw your picture - you're fat and ugly. The only reason you get hot women is that you are rich and famous." Tom would say, "Being rich and famous is a big part of who I am. I worked hard to become who I am. That's what the women are attracted to."

Yea, Tom is a master at holding his own and turning the table on these wenches. Since he could be considered powerful by some, I wouldn't be surprised if the odd fame groupie is actually attracted to him at some level in spite of his 'long expired body'.[/quote]

The successful older guy who travels and finds younger women abroad to share his adventures, often attracts those women because his travels and adventures are expressing who he is.

In my experience, that sort of thinking is usually a case of the much older western traveler deluding himself. The girl is just tolerating being stuck with him short-term for potential payoff. There's no fool like an..., lol. Now if you were to find super desperate girls (say those from refugee camps in certain parts of Africa), she might be grateful just to have decent meals. But that's not where you're going to find attractive girls you wanna date. In Africa, regular girls are usually going to expect some monetary compensation or tangible gifts at the end of the trip if not during. If they refuse this, they may be holding-out for that big-ticket to the rich world - the visa. And that's usually a bait-and-switch strategy. Once she gets to Germany, UK, US, etc., or at some point after, she can disappear into her own network of African contacts. [/quote]

Sorry if I'm coming off as condescending; I'm trying not to be. But experience in life tells must of us older guys that everyone wants something and one should take advantage of what you've got to offer. If what you've got is youth, looks and muscles - make use of those. If what you have is experience, maturity, wisdom and a few bucks in the bank - by all means use those. It's all good and we all benefit. BTW, this is what I hope Winston will realize too.

That's fine and I don't think you are. Likewise, I hope I'm not coming off as condescending. And I agree with you in principle about the ideal of seeking some sort of fair exchange. Its just that a lot of these girls you meet in poorer countries can be a lot more cunning and strategic in the longer term than you would ever imagine given their modest backgrounds and very limited educations. And their mentality is often more along the lines of victor-victim, not win-win or fair exchange. Its just the way their environments have conditioned them

Thailand, one of the most popular destinations on earth for older western travelers, is littered with thousands of true stories of guys, many very educated and formerly prosperous, who've been totally bankrupted in relations with Thai girls. Many others have survived financially but over the course of 2-4 years, have made total payments to the families in excess of US$100-200K. A lot are eventually kicked-out of the houses they buy in the girl's name. Some are even abused by the extended family and/or girl's local boyfriend/husband.

I firmly believe power is seductive to many women. But in Africa, a regular tourist white man is actually very weak in spite of his relative wealth. So don't imagine that you are perceived as some kind of 'powerful man' there. Locals just see you as exposed and naive about the ways of Africa, a fish out of water. You are constantly at threat of being exploited by corrupt local police, scam artists, and more serious criminal elements. Sometimes, the girls work together with these parties. And local papers will sometimes run articles about young women who use foreigners for getting visas and cash. Cities which attract a lot of tourism such as Mombasa are particularly notorious for good reason. White get arrested for bogus charges, thrown in jail, and then extorted for as much as possible. And the Nigerians have made scamming foreigners an art form.

Finally, ordinary Africans may sympathize with those who steal from you you as they consider their countries as having been impoverished by the white west. For example, police who raid Lagos Internet cafes suspected of being 401 centers often get fruits and stones thrown at them by neighbors on their way out as they escort suspected perpetrators back to the police vans. Local politicians love to use foreigners and foreign countries such as America as a scape goat for their own policy failures or downright greed. Locals eat-up this propaganda. In the 70s, Idi Amin expelled relatively wealthy Indians from Uganda and much more recently, Robert Mugabe confiscated most of the land owned by white farmers in Zimbabwe. Both moves were widely popular in spite of the great damage they did to the local economies during the respective periods.

[davewe]

So what is the message you wish to convey? Stay in America? It's screwed but at least you know how it's screwed.

[davewe]

So what is the message you wish to convey? Stay in America? It's screwed but at least you know how it's screwed.

BTW, I should add that as a newbie on this site, I am genuinely seeking the truth. I love travel and love women and would love to combine both. And I have often thought about relocating post-retirement. But OTOH if as Rock as several others seem to imply it's (old) fools gold, well I have no desire to waste my time.

However, I will say that I have traveled abroad and without any effort found women in those countries and so far have managed to do it without getting fleeced.

[E_Irizarry]

@Rock,

Since Nigerian men are faring decently in Beijing, CHina, how would Black American and Latino American (Latinos raised in America) do with the women in Beijing?

[Repatriate]

Thailand, one of the most popular destinations on earth for older western travelers, is littered with thousands of true stories of guys, many very educated and formerly prosperous, who've been totally bankrupted in relations with Thai girls. Many others have survived financially but over the course of 2-4 years, have made total payments to the families in excess of US$100-200K. A lot are eventually kicked-out of the houses they buy in the girl's name. Some are even abused by the extended family and/or girl's local boyfriend/husband.

I have been in Thailand awhile and I will say that by having familiarity with the culture and people that I would never ever marry a Thai woman or enter into a long term financially dependent situation with one. I'd say the same about most SE Asians in general. I don't think the cultures here are conducive to an honest relationship when it comes to financial matters. I'm not talking about ratty whores in bars either but the ticket to easy street is too much of a temptation for the vast majority of the regular population in these countries. Even financially independent Thai women can turn out unreliable if given the incentive.