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Change in China's marriage law stirs controversy

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Change in China's marriage law stirs controversy

Postby momopi » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:51 pm

http://www.thehansindia.info/News/Artic ... entId=2026

Change in China's marriage law stirs controversy

Beijing (PTI): A ruling by China's Supreme Court divesting wives of the right of co-ownership of property in the event of divorce has stirred up major controversy, as it changed the country's time honoured marriage law almost overnight.

The changed marriage law, which took effect on August 13, stipulates that houses bought on mortgage by one party prior to wedlock are to be deemed as the personal property of the registered owner, rather than the joint estate of the couple.

The judicial ruling, intended to resolve real estate disputes in divorce cases, depriving wives' of co-ownership of a couple's home will make them feel both insecure and unromantic, women's and rights groups said.

Passed without any public debate, it challenges the traditional Chinese view that to secure a marriage the groom has to buy an apartment, which has become increasingly expensive, Liu Yan, a lawyer on marital affairs said.

For a Chinese man marriage is impossible without him owning an apartment, the right over which was shared in the event of divorce as per the old rules.

The new ruling will only make divorce more complicated, Fan Li, a 30-year-old mother in southwest Chongqing Municipality said. "Just think of women's sacrifices for the family. When a woman loses her looks, and her husband wants to leave her, you think wives will let go and get nothing to compensate for their sweat and youth?" she asked.
The ruling came amid reports that China's divorce rate has reached an all-time high.

More than 4.65 lakh married couples filed for divorce in the first quarter of 2011, a 17.1 percent annual increase, according to figures released by the Ministry of Civil Affairs.

More than 82 percent of women saw "singledom" as a positive way of life, as per Chen's demographic studies in 2007. Also, Census figures show that the sex ratio has increased with 118 males for every 100 females in 2010. The ruling stirred up a heated debate in the country's citizens.

Related News


=========================

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 0825000004


China's People's Supreme Court decision that in the case of a divorce, a house inhabited by a married couple would belong solely to the person in whose name it was registered, has driven home the importance of pre-nuptual agreements on property rights, according to Beijing Daily.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -love.html

In a bid to temper the rising expectations of Chinese women, China's Supreme Court has now ruled that from now on, the person who buys the family home, or the parents who advance them the money, will get to keep it after divorce.
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Postby Truthville » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:02 pm

Wonderful post momopi!!!!

This is the quote that sums it up for me, "(changing the law) will make them feel both insecure and unromantic, women's and rights groups said."

So, reading between the lines, not being able to count on half the proceeds of a dwelling you didn't purchase makes Chinese women "unromantic?" It sounds like the are becoming more and more Westernized everyday. I am very surprised they passed this law, but, as the article says, it probably has more to do with trying to stem the rising divorce tide then anything else.

IF only we could get such a law adopted in the U.S.
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Postby Jackal » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:50 pm

I bet that men all over China are celebrating with some cold ones!

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Postby odbo » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:47 pm

Good news indeed. Chinese men are some of the most beaten down on earth. Their women become treacherous once married. I remember the Chinese moms my friends at school had to deal with.. I think I'd prefer juvenile hall to that. f**k Marxism and f**k the Chinese matriarchy!

Japanese woman: sweet, charming, feminine
Chinese woman: "I am woman, hear me roar! I wear the pants in this relationship is that understood!! :evil: All your money is belong to ME. What yours is mine, what's mine is mine." :twisted:

Setting a few million of these nagging Chinese women loose in a warzone would be a war crime. The other army would lose the will to live.
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Re: Change in China's marriage law stirs controversy

Postby Rock » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:59 am

momopi wrote:http://www.thehansindia.info/News/Article.asp?category=1&subCategory=4&ContentId=2026

Change in China's marriage law stirs controversy

Beijing (PTI): A ruling by China's Supreme Court divesting wives of the right of co-ownership of property in the event of divorce has stirred up major controversy, as it changed the country's time honoured marriage law almost overnight.

The changed marriage law, which took effect on August 13, stipulates that houses bought on mortgage by one party prior to wedlock are to be deemed as the personal property of the registered owner, rather than the joint estate of the couple.

The judicial ruling, intended to resolve real estate disputes in divorce cases, depriving wives' of co-ownership of a couple's home will make them feel both insecure and unromantic, women's and rights groups said.

Passed without any public debate, it challenges the traditional Chinese view that to secure a marriage the groom has to buy an apartment, which has become increasingly expensive, Liu Yan, a lawyer on marital affairs said.

For a Chinese man marriage is impossible without him owning an apartment, the right over which was shared in the event of divorce as per the old rules.

The new ruling will only make divorce more complicated, Fan Li, a 30-year-old mother in southwest Chongqing Municipality said. "Just think of women's sacrifices for the family. When a woman loses her looks, and her husband wants to leave her, you think wives will let go and get nothing to compensate for their sweat and youth?" she asked.
The ruling came amid reports that China's divorce rate has reached an all-time high.

More than 4.65 lakh married couples filed for divorce in the first quarter of 2011, a 17.1 percent annual increase, according to figures released by the Ministry of Civil Affairs.

More than 82 percent of women saw "singledom" as a positive way of life, as per Chen's demographic studies in 2007. Also, Census figures show that the sex ratio has increased with 118 males for every 100 females in 2010. The ruling stirred up a heated debate in the country's citizens.

Related News


=========================

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 0825000004


China's People's Supreme Court decision that in the case of a divorce, a house inhabited by a married couple would belong solely to the person in whose name it was registered, has driven home the importance of pre-nuptual agreements on property rights, according to Beijing Daily.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -love.html

In a bid to temper the rising expectations of Chinese women, China's Supreme Court has now ruled that from now on, the person who buys the family home, or the parents who advance them the money, will get to keep it after divorce.


This news also hit one of Taiwan's local English newspapers yesterday too. They have a big section on China every Friday. It sure seemed sudden but I haven't been following related developments.

With housing prices what they are in China today, its usually the parents who foot most of the down-payment bill. Its really not fair to the parents of the groom to be essentially handing-over so much wealth to bride's family. So this is a great development IMO. I sure hope China keeps women's power in-check. Perhaps the men their are a lot smarter than their western counterparts.

Another thing which is disturbing that I've been reading is that 70% of Chinese women claim they won't even consider marrying a man who does not own a house or condo. Well, with this new law, they'll probably insist on having their name put on the title deed to become co-owners and effectively making the real estate part of the marital assets. I sure hope most of these local guys just say no that.

I think Taiwan is a lot better in some regards. And divorce rate here has actually been falling over last several years.
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Re: Change in China's marriage law stirs controversy

Postby momopi » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:06 pm

Rock wrote:With housing prices what they are in China today, its usually the parents who foot most of the down-payment bill. Its really not fair to the parents of the groom to be essentially handing-over so much wealth to bride's family. So this is a great development IMO. I sure hope China keeps women's power in-check. Perhaps the men their are a lot smarter than their western counterparts.


Generally speaking, Asians have higher savings rate, and a higher % of Asian parents give their kids money for their first homes. In this respect, I think if the parents bought the house, then they should keep it after a divorce and not the other party. This kind of law is also easier to pass in China because of the circumstance, plus buying a home in East Asia often require much higher % in down payment.

I'm inclined to think that in the US, fewer parents give $ to their children for down-payment on a house. The savings rate in the US is also quite poor, so fewer parents (% wise) have the money to give or lend. But if the parents are wealthy enough, I think the kids are better off getting a private mortgage with their parents instead of the bank. Why pay all that interest to the bank when you can give it to your own parents instead?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/05/busin ... TGAGE.html

"To get the loan documentation drawn up, lenders can consult with lawyers willing to do the work for a lump sum, or check out companies like National Family Mortgage, which will help create notes for intrafamily loans. For $599, National Family Mortgage, which focuses on intrafamily mortgages specifically, will help families structure a promissory note, including penalty terms, and will also file the loan with the appropriate government authority. For about $15 a month, the company will also keep the loan an arm’s-length transaction, for instance, by collecting payments from the borrower’s bank account and depositing them in the lender’s account."


Hmmm. I wonder if intrafamily private mortgage concept would work in East Asia? Now that's a business idea.
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Re: Change in China's marriage law stirs controversy

Postby OutWest » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:20 pm

momopi wrote:
Rock wrote:With housing prices what they are in China today, its usually the parents who foot most of the down-payment bill. Its really not fair to the parents of the groom to be essentially handing-over so much wealth to bride's family. So this is a great development IMO. I sure hope China keeps women's power in-check. Perhaps the men their are a lot smarter than their western counterparts.


Generally speaking, Asians have higher savings rate, and a higher % of Asian parents give their kids money for their first homes. In this respect, I think if the parents bought the house, then they should keep it after a divorce and not the other party. This kind of law is also easier to pass in China because of the circumstance, plus buying a home in East Asia often require much higher % in down payment.

I'm inclined to think that in the US, fewer parents give $ to their children for down-payment on a house. The savings rate in the US is also quite poor, so fewer parents (% wise) have the money to give or lend. But if the parents are wealthy enough, I think the kids are better off getting a private mortgage with their parents instead of the bank. Why pay all that interest to the bank when you can give it to your own parents instead?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/05/busin ... TGAGE.html

"To get the loan documentation drawn up, lenders can consult with lawyers willing to do the work for a lump sum, or check out companies like National Family Mortgage, which will help create notes for intrafamily loans. For $599, National Family Mortgage, which focuses on intrafamily mortgages specifically, will help families structure a promissory note, including penalty terms, and will also file the loan with the appropriate government authority. For about $15 a month, the company will also keep the loan an arm’s-length transaction, for instance, by collecting payments from the borrower’s bank account and depositing them in the lender’s account."


Hmmm. I wonder if intrafamily private mortgage concept would work in East Asia? Now that's a business idea.


I'm surprised it is not already being done there. The general idea that marriage is a tool to aquire real estate is actually an old one, and not just for women, but was commonly a design of men in the past as well. Now of course in modern America , marriage has become this deal where the woman says,
"OK. we will live together in 'marriage' and if it does not work out, I get to keep the house and all your stuff."

I still remember the very very long sad face of the wife of a friend near Portland, Oregon when she discovered that her new husband's house (7000 sq ft, 4 acre estate in Dunthorpe, an old money area) was in fact held by a family trust. You should have seen the look on her face! Her vampire soul could not
hide itself.

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Postby The_Hero_of_Men » Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:23 pm

odbo wrote:Good news indeed. Chinese men are some of the most beaten down on earth. Their women become treacherous once married. I remember the Chinese moms my friends at school had to deal with.. I think I'd prefer juvenile hall to that. f**k Marxism and f**k the Chinese matriarchy!

Japanese woman: sweet, charming, feminine
Chinese woman: "I am woman, hear me roar! I wear the pants in this relationship is that understood!! :evil: All your money is belong to ME. What yours is mine, what's mine is mine." :twisted:

Setting a few million of these nagging Chinese women loose in a warzone would be a war crime. The other army would lose the will to live.


That was very funny :) lol
Wielding the blade of evil's bane, he sealed the dark one away and gave the land light. This man, who traveled through time to save the land, was known as the Hero of Men. The man's tale was passed down through generations until it became legend...
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Re: Change in China's marriage law stirs controversy

Postby Rock » Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:06 pm

momopi wrote:
Rock wrote:With housing prices what they are in China today, its usually the parents who foot most of the down-payment bill. Its really not fair to the parents of the groom to be essentially handing-over so much wealth to bride's family. So this is a great development IMO. I sure hope China keeps women's power in-check. Perhaps the men their are a lot smarter than their western counterparts.


Generally speaking, Asians have higher savings rate, and a higher % of Asian parents give their kids money for their first homes. In this respect, I think if the parents bought the house, then they should keep it after a divorce and not the other party. This kind of law is also easier to pass in China because of the circumstance, plus buying a home in East Asia often require much higher % in down payment.

I'm inclined to think that in the US, fewer parents give $ to their children for down-payment on a house. The savings rate in the US is also quite poor, so fewer parents (% wise) have the money to give or lend. But if the parents are wealthy enough, I think the kids are better off getting a private mortgage with their parents instead of the bank. Why pay all that interest to the bank when you can give it to your own parents instead?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/05/busin ... TGAGE.html

"To get the loan documentation drawn up, lenders can consult with lawyers willing to do the work for a lump sum, or check out companies like National Family Mortgage, which will help create notes for intrafamily loans. For $599, National Family Mortgage, which focuses on intrafamily mortgages specifically, will help families structure a promissory note, including penalty terms, and will also file the loan with the appropriate government authority. For about $15 a month, the company will also keep the loan an arm’s-length transaction, for instance, by collecting payments from the borrower’s bank account and depositing them in the lender’s account."


Hmmm. I wonder if intrafamily private mortgage concept would work in East Asia? Now that's a business idea.


I don't know Momopi. Perhaps with some families. Others might think having contracts with family members might hurt relationships given the lack of trust implied. How would your relatives and friends feel do you think - what % open vs. what % closed to the idea? Another factor to keep in mind, for Taiwan anyway, is that mortgage rates have been extremely low for a long time, especially for first time home buyers. You don't get the long-term fixed ones but it hasn't mattered for a long time since the variable rates have been so low so long. So, the parents would not get much compensation in terms of an interest rate. I suppose their biggest concern (in some cases) would just be getting paid back the principal over time.
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Re: Change in China's marriage law stirs controversy

Postby momopi » Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:46 pm

Rock wrote:I don't know Momopi. Perhaps with some families. Others might think having contracts with family members might hurt relationships given the lack of trust implied. How would your relatives and friends feel do you think - what % open vs. what % closed to the idea? Another factor to keep in mind, for Taiwan anyway, is that mortgage rates have been extremely low for a long time, especially for first time home buyers. You don't get the long-term fixed ones but it hasn't mattered for a long time since the variable rates have been so low so long. So, the parents would not get much compensation in terms of an interest rate. I suppose their biggest concern (in some cases) would just be getting paid back the principal over time.


Have a look at this site:
http://www.nationalfamilymortgage.com

So here's what I'm thinking. In California there's a small nitch of FCB's (foreign cash buyers) for real estate, and many of them are wealthy Asian parents or grandparents buying a home for their kids/grand children. Asian Americans run about 20% divorce rate in first 10 year of marriage. So what happens to the property if the couple divorce, or one dies of illness/car accident? What happens if the kid "borrows" the money and refuse to pay the parents later? There are lots of FUD's to exploit.

So here's a scenario. You're the A-Ma and your kid wants to borrow $500,000 to buy a property in Diamond Bar (cash purchase). You read on local Chinese newspaper about intra-family loans, and you make an offer to your kid: $250,000 in gift and the other $250,000 in intra-family loan @ AFR rate 30-year term. If your kid gets a divorce later the $250k mortgage is still owned by YOU regardless of who the house goes to. Or, if your kid is rotten and don't want to pay you, you can foreclose the home. ;p

A $200,000, 30-year loan @ 4.5% means paying $300,000 over the life of the loan in interest to the bank. Why give the bank all that money when you, the A-Ma, can get it instead? You'd be helping your kids, doing them a favor, and getting a return on your investment for raising them in the first place!

The only problem is that the intra-family mortgage makes very little $ in service fees. So to make any decent $ and to give financial advisers an incentive to offer the product to their customers, you'd need to make a small % from the loan's interest and pay off the referral fees, so you'll need pre-payment penalty of x months or years to make sure you at least break even, and.. (gears in brain running)

I think I'll go have a chat with my friends in the RE and mortgage industry. ;p
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Postby Winston » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:57 pm

A guy on my mailing list had this to say about the China article quoted here.

I love the article about the change in China's marriage law that allows husbands to keep real estate in the event of a divorce if that real estate was purchased prior to the marriage.

I was laughing so hard as I was reading it. This was such a huge slap in the face against feminism. GOOD.

Feminists around the world must be furious. I hope they are.

It's so nice to see China's independent spirit in action. China basically thumbed it's nose at the worldwide feminist dictatorship.

China is truly an independent sovereign nation, and that is definately something to be proud of. They did what was in the public interest and not what was 'politically correct'.

They have my utmost respect and admiration.

The U.S. could learn something from them. U.S. politicians, legislators, lawmakers, judges, police, etc. are all such a bunch of pathetic wimps. They never seem to stop coddling, pacifying and pandering to females. It's so sickening. No wonder American females are such spoiled, selfish, lothesome creatures.

China has convinced me that all is not lost. Feminists actually can lose! Let's hope they lose even more.
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