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12 Logical Reasons Why Rock's Taiwan Claims Can't Be True

Discuss culture, living, traveling, relocating, dating or anything related to the Asian countries - China, The Philippines, Thailand, etc.

Moderators: jamesbond, fschmidt

Postby Repatriate » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:59 am

Rock wrote:


Not all the girls I like are unattractive by Asian standards. And I appreciate Asian taste more than typical white guy taste. I value things like youth, innocence. non-smokers, non-drinkers, and no tattoos too which I believe is in line with Asian sensibilities.


Those are more lifestyle preferences over physical appearances though. You seem to prefer heavier set women and from what i've seen that's really not the preferred look in Asia.

Perhaps Winston needs to hang in Taipei for awhile and get connected with some of the guys up here who like to go out and meet people.


I agree he needs to get outside more, meet some regular people, and maybe it'll defuse some of his irrational anger. We wouldn't him to go Seung-Hui Cho on us one day.
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Postby Falcon » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:30 am

Rock. Paper. Scissors. Is Winston the paper or the scissors? Maybe both. :D

Let me take a moderate stance here.


1) Taiwan is a very REPRESSED country with conservative values. ... Taiwan on the other hand, has a VERY strong repressed vibe/energy field, and that is definitely NOT conducive to flirting at all. ... Furthermore, the social personality of people here is to act VERY innocent. So you too have to act very innocent to fit in.

Taiwanese people are raised from childhood to be "guai hai zi" 乖孩子 (well-behaved kids), with parents using intense negative conditioning from birth way into adulthood. Furthermore, they are extremely concerned about "mian zi" 面子 ("face"), which is extremely valued all over the Sinosphere. This is why they have to behave innocently in public. I can have a lot of fun with Taiwanese people, but it's always well-ordered, well-behaved fun. In Mexico, everyone is free to literally howl like a wolf, laugh at the top of their lungs, and dance around like clowns when having good times with friends. Taiwanese people will see you as a freak if you do what the Mexicans do when having a good time.

Nevertheless, Taiwanese people do flirt, but either in subtle ways at the beginning or only after you get to know them well enough or get past their "shell" (which takes anywhere from several minutes to several days). It just takes longer to do so than in Hispanicized countries such as the Philippines, Colombia, or Mexico.


2) Taiwanese are generally conservative, despite the liberalism of the young generation. Girls are still closed, cliquish and not very social outside their clique. They are picky, think long term, and have a serious conservative mindset, not a "have fun and play hard/get wild" mentality.

I would put it as this: Most Taiwanese people like to stay inside their comfort zones. They are not closed and cliquish the way Americans are, but rather are afraid to venture out into unknown social worlds due to the way they've been raised. How many times have you heard Taiwanese parents warning about people who are "bu shou" 不受 ("not familiar")? Nevertheless, they are curious, friendly, and very warm once you make them comfortable with you.

Also, Taiwanese girls always easily give me their contact info, since I always act innocent at first and do not ever try to act like I am hitting on them. If you do so, they will be wary of giving you their contact info. But still, that doesn't mean they are inherently unfriendly people. It's just that they have been raised by their parents to be conservative.


3) In fact, not a single credible Taiwanese person I know claims that Taiwan is an easy place to pick up or meet girls. Not one.

It certainly isn't easy as pie, where girls can be picked up like "snap." But it is far from extremely frustrating and frightening as it is in the U.S. It certainly is slightly challenging to pick up Taiwanese girls, but that is because you have take it slow and easy with them, and get to know them well. Urban Chinese women would be about the same.


4) Most white expats here are not attractive.

Many white people I've seen in Taipei are indeed middle-aged folks, but they are by no means unattractive. They tend to be the better educated kind than the white expats in Thailand and the Philippines, though, since the intricate Chinese language and culture probably appeal to the more intellectual types. Sure, maybe they're nerdier, but certainly not unattractive.


5) I'm a far better charmer and smooth talker with women than most guys are. ... Most guys have shitty social skills and don't know how to flirt with girls. They are cold and stoic.

It's not bad social skills, but rather their conscience (due to strict Taiwanese upbringing) that tells them it is inappropriate to flirt outright with girls in public. They make friends with them first, and take it easy. Many aren't cold and stoic, but are rather innocent and friendly.

On the other hand, men and women in Mexico can be very, very flirty the very instant they see someone they find attractive.


6) Most women in middle class countries don't give casual sex easily.

It has more to do with culture than with a country's wealth. Women in Western Europe and the U.S. give casual sex far more easily than those in poor Muslim countries.


7) If Taiwan was an easy place to pick up women, then AFA (A Foreign Affair) would have romance tours here. Simple logic.

Romance tours usually are not usually held in developed countries, but that has more to do with economics than with how easy it is to pick up women. And if women are actually very easy to pick up in whatever country for everyone, then no romance tours would even be needed for that country.


8 ) Taiwan girls are known to be very picky, materialistic, spoiled and westernized. They are nice, yeah, but that's usually as far as it goes. They aren't even marriage minded anymore, as Taiwanese people now talk about. And many complain that they act like divas now.

I agree that many are. They tend to be "little princesses" who are usually much more sophisticated than their mothers and grandmothers. I do get annoyed by plenty of Taiwanese girls who put on fancy clothes and try to emulate Asian pop stars and actresses seen on TV. But they certainly have not gone as bad as the U.S. women being talked about in this forum.

That is why I enjoy being around with the plainer-looking and plainer-acting ones - they are really wonderful people to be around with, and are far less "picky, materialistic, spoiled and westernized." It's quite easy to tell the "Asian divas" from the "plain Janes." Go for the latter. I have said exactly the same thing in http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/view ... hp?t=13523 about Type #1's and Type #2's. The "picky, materialistic, spoiled and westernized" women are the Type #2's ("sexy" ones, as opposed to the "plain" ones).


I did enjoy reading your opinions, Winston, as well as everyone else's responses. Just remember to be civil, and to make use of constructive criticism.
Last edited by Falcon on Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby momopi » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:43 am

RE prices in TW's major cities are expensive, so young adults tend to live with their parents. It's difficult (and awkward) to bring your date home to get laid with your parents around, so couples use "rest motels" (rented by the hour), love motels, themed motels, or simply go on a weekend rump to hot springs resort or whatever.

Some of the themed motel rooms are pretty awkward, with a giant hello kitty looking down on the love-bed. >_>

To cite an example, see URL below. You don't need to read Chinese, "2H" means 2 hours and "3H" means 3 hours. So for a "3 hour rest" you might pay NT 1500 ($50) to use their themed rooms for some private time with your GF:
http://www.eden-motel.com.tw/shinguo/fr ... ory=113165

It's a somewhat pricy place because they offer rooms like these:
http://www.eden-motel.com.tw/shinguo/fr ... ory=115087
http://www.eden-motel.com.tw/shinguo/fr ... &PreView=1
http://www.eden-motel.com.tw/shinguo/fr ... &PreView=1
http://www.eden-motel.com.tw/shinguo/fr ... &PreView=1
http://www.eden-motel.com.tw/shinguo/fr ... &PreView=1
http://www.eden-motel.com.tw/shinguo/fr ... &PreView=1

Image

Image

Image


I have no idea who's idea it was for the batman room. Word of advice, although the sofa's and love seats can be fun, be warned that unlike bedsheets on the bed, they don't get cleaned as often.

The first video below should be self-explanatory.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UwRv11Bb_I&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEhNdV3_ixE&feature=relmfu[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45vNPNkyVo8&feature=relmfu[/youtube]


WARNING: NSFW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_4B_Iqc27k
Last edited by momopi on Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Falcon » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:59 am

momopi wrote:RE prices in TW's major cities are expensive, so young adults tend to live with their parents. It's difficult (and awkward) to bring your date home to get laid with your parents around, so couples use "rest motels" (rented by the hour), love motels, themed motels, or simply go on a weekend rump to hot springs resort or whatever.


Most Mexican youths, at least in rural areas, tend to live with their extended families even if they are not poor. If not in their hometowns, they would usually share their rooms with many other migrants. So to make out, young Mexican couples would either have to rent hotel rooms, or go out into the cornfields if short on cash (which is the usual option in indigenous communities). :P

Eloping is very common in rural Mexico, since conservative Mexican parents can be highly protective of their daughters. Sometimes the parents would actually be secretly pleased with the elopement if they believe the male eloper would make a very good mate for their daughter.
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Postby Falcon » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:18 am

momopi wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UwRv11Bb_I&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEhNdV3_ixE&feature=relmfu[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45vNPNkyVo8&feature=relmfu[/youtube]


WARNING: NSFW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_4B_Iqc27k


我的天啊。我媽看了會昏倒。 :lol:

台灣人真的好會做生意和做廣告。
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Postby momopi » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:40 am

Back in 2007-2008, I was in a serious relationship with a girl in TPE. Her father worked in Tianjin so her mom flew to China to be with him every few months. But if I was in TPE and I stayed over at her place overnight, even with her parents away, my relatives would disapprove because they felt it was inappropriate. Yet, when I took her on a trip to Beijing, everyone thought it was OK (including her parents) knowing that we'd be sleeping together in the same hotel room. o.O;; So when we were in Taiwan, we just took trips to Wulai or Suao. Wulai has some great hot spring resorts but not everyone use real hot springs water, so do your homework before going.

Ultimately, the relationship didn't work out because she wasn't willing to move to the US and I wasn't willing to move to TW. She had at one point asked if I'd buy a condo with her in TPE, but I just didn't like the idea of living there. That was probably the most effort I've put into courting a girl overseas back then, flying to Asia 4 times in 2007 to be with her (plus couple times in 2008), but she wasn't willing to fly to the US once in 2008 to be with me. There were other issues but it's pointless now.

On that note, I'm not understanding why people invest so much time on someone else's sex life. If the person is very successful in TW and gets laid every week, good for him. If he lied, then he's the one who's alone on the weekends. Either way, you're better off investing your time on improving your own social life.
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Postby Billy » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:38 pm

momopi, these are fascinating romantic-hotel rooms. never saw something like that :)
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Postby Ned Zeppelin » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:10 pm

Yeah, the batman one looks like quite the panty dropper.
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Postby momopi » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:55 pm

Here in California, we have a famous themed hotel in Central CA called Modonna Inn:
http://www.madonnainn.com/features.php

Move your mouse curser over the room names and you can see the room picture.

The hotel started in 1958, so the facilities are a little dated and not as "new and polished" like the themed love hotels in TW. But it's a classic and pretty fun to stay at with your GF & visit the wineries in the SLO region. Another classic place to take your date is the Apple Farm Inn:
http://www.applefarm.com/
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Postby Billy » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:24 pm

momopi, nice like a holodec. I miss the science fiction room :)
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Postby ethan_sg » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:07 pm

I think it's pointless to pick out individual examples of one's self or one's friends picking up girls or getting laid in a given country and citing that as evidence of how easy or difficult it is to get girls in that country.

In any country in the world, there are men picking up girls, getting laid, getting attached and getting married every year. Isolated examples are merely minuscule contributions to this overall statistic but are far too micro-focused to cite as evidence for general statements like the viability of male-female relationships in a given country.

Hell even in America, let alone Taiwan, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore or even China, there are guys getting girls or getting married. Isolated examples of these through one's personal friends mean little in the overall scheme of things.

To really make conclusions, you would really need to test the ground on a much larger scale, or even cite some national statistics.

By testing the ground on a much larger scale, I mean like say taking the same guy, and assuming he can speak basic Chinese, and then have him approach 5000 girls on the streets in Taipei and 5000 girls on the streets in an average Chinese city. Which does he have a higher success rate with and in which cities does he find that the girls are friendlier and more 'relationship-material' and with stronger family values? Now that goes a little way towards giving us a statistically significant number. We can't say the answer for sure given we haven't actually tried this with 5000 girls but my bet from what I understand about the 2 countries would be on the Chinese city producing much better results.

In terms of citing national statistics, well I think most of us know from common knowledge that marriage rates and birth rates in developed Asian countries/cities such as Japan, Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong have decreased significantly over the years. Marriage rates are very low while the fetility rates (meaning the rate of childbirths to fertile females) is close to an all time low - I believe that in Japan and Taiwan it has sunk below 1. To keep a population (or replacement rate) constant, you need a fertility rate of 2 (2 children for every couple out there). Compare this to China where they actually had to implement a one-child-policy to control population growth.

I think that developed Asian countries have all been struck with very similar social factors that accompanied their development - increased westernization, worship of corporate culture and conformity to wage slavery, increased materialism, increased selfishness, increased divorce rates, weaker family bonds, decreased marriage rates, much lower birth rates, increased cost of living, sky-high property prices etc. In Singapore for example, the median wage has increased by only about 3-4 times since 1970 while the average price of a home has increased 100 times! (tells you what a lie development is but that's another story) It's no surprise that in such conditions, an increasing number of men cannot afford a home and less men are seen by women as viable marriage partners in not being able to afford a home, increasing the rate of hypergamy in the country.

Here's another stat for you. In Japan, more than 25% of men in their 30s REPORT THAT THEY HAVE NEVER HAD SEX! [/u][/b] In addition, 61.4% of unmarried men aged 18-34 do not have a girlfriend.

We're talking about social trends in developed countries and as the most developed country in Asia, Japan is at the forefront of that. It is also one of the most westernized countries with a suffocating, impregnable corporate culture, the people described as machine-like in their efficiency. Workaholicism is also rife in developed Asian countries, with Singapore and South Korea recently cited by a survey as being the countries with the longest working hours in the world. With working completely taking over your life like in corporate America, how does one have a meaningful social life? With mindless drones everywhere, how does one meet soulful women?

I also think that materialism (particularly for women in the form of brand consciousness and the love of flaunting expensive purchases to 'keep face') has affected developed Asian countries (Japan, S.Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore) arguably even more than America! A good majority of attractive Singaporean women consider it an essential to own a Louie Vutton bag for instance. Middle class women in these countries are arguably more aware of the top fashion brands in the world than your average suburban American woman and crave for these items. In Singapore, virtually EVERYONE owns either an iPhone, or Samsung Galaxy phone or at least a Blackberry. Not owning a smartphone is considered embarrassing! Given how sucked into the soulless materialistic consumerist culture these countries and in particular their women are, how comfortable or viable do you think it would be to date or even worse, marry their women?

Even if put aside my belief that the average Chinese woman has a much better, down to earth, real personality than the average girl from a developed Asian country, from an economic standpoint alone, how do you think your relative wealth or earning power would be like in a country like Japan or Singapore, where the mean GDP per capita is pretty close to that of America, as compared to in a country like China, where the average woman you meet is earning merely 300-500 dollars a month?

There are so many materialistic, selfish, consumerist 'Career women' (who by the way tend to be the most conforming to the status quo) who are earning more than the average man in these developed Asian countries. Together with westernization, feminism has also infiltrated these countries to some degree. Many of these women with their overly pragmatic mindset would be thinking, if I'm earning this much what does an average man who earns less than me have to offer me? They're holding out for multi-millionaire tom cruises baby, hence the dismal national statistics.

So let's not cite individual examples as proof of the dating viability in a given country. We can't use micro-stats to prove macro-statements. But I can tell you that the macro-stats in developed Asian countries don't look very good.

And if you were to get a guy who could speak Chinese/Japanese and get him to approach 5000 girls on the street in say, Japan, Taiwan or Singapore and then get him to try the same with 5000 girls on the street in a Chinese city, I'm pretty confident he'll much a much better time in China. But that's just my inference from what I've seen on both a micro and macro level, I can't prove it until the experiment is done. There's no doubt that guys can still approach girls in Japan and Taiwan and get lucky, it's just a matter of degree, and mind you this 'degree' is also subject to the qualities of the guy himself, but that's a constant, and we're making general comparisons among the variables, which are developed and developing Asian countries.

Having said that, I once dated a Taipei girl who was hot but still nice but that's just a micro-stat, I won't cite that as a general rule at all and nor should anyone else here. I would surmise that the ranking of these Asian countries, in terms of the viability of picking up girls, getting laid, getting into serious stable long term relationships and getting into a lasting marriage, from the most viable to the least viable, would be in the following order:

1. China (try to avoid Shanghai and Shenzhen if you're looking for good women, although they got a good share of decent domestic migrants who are more 'real')
2. Taiwan (quite a gap between 1 and 2 though) (I will say though that the likes of Taichung and Tainan are likely to be much better than Taipei)
3. South Korea/Hong Kong (HK guys don't worry so much though because of their proximity to China)
4. Singapore (Very westernized and materialistic, many people speak English as a first language, easy penetration of undesirable western values)
5. Japan (has been industrializing and opening up to the west for more than a century now, and it does seem to have taken its toll on it, just look at some of the national stats. The food remains very good though, delicious yet healthy)
Last edited by ethan_sg on Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ethan_sg » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:08 pm

By the way, Winston, when are you finally going to China??
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Postby Rock » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:25 pm

ethan_sg wrote:I think it's pointless to pick out individual examples of one's self or one's friends picking up girls or getting laid in a given country and citing that as evidence of how easy or difficult it is to get girls in that country.

In any country in the world, there are men picking up girls, getting laid, getting attached and getting married every year. Isolated examples are merely minuscule contributions to this overall statistic but are far too micro-focused to cite as evidence for general statements like the viability of male-female relationships in a given country.

Hell even in America, let alone Taiwan, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore or even China, there are guys getting girls or getting married. Isolated examples of these through one's personal friends mean little in the overall scheme of things.

To really make conclusions, you would really need to test the ground on a much larger scale, or even cite some national statistics.

By testing the ground on a much larger scale, I mean like say taking the same guy, and assuming he can speak basic Chinese, and then have him approach 5000 girls on the streets in Taipei and 5000 girls on the streets in an average Chinese city. Which does he have a higher success rate with and in which cities does he find that the girls are friendlier and more 'relationship-material' and with stronger family values? Now that goes a little way towards giving us a statistically significant number. We can't say the answer for sure given we haven't actually tried this with 5000 girls but my bet from what I understand about the 2 countries would be on the Chinese city producing much better results.

In terms of citing national statistics, well I think most of us know from common knowledge that marriage rates and birth rates in developed Asian countries/cities such as Japan, Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong have decreased significantly over the years. Marriage rates are very low while the fetility rates (meaning the rate of childbirths to fertile females) is close to an all time low - I believe that in Japan and Taiwan it has sunk below 1. To keep a population (or replacement rate) constant, you need a fertility rate of 2 (2 children for every couple out there). Compare this to China where they actually had to implement a one-child-policy to control population growth.

I think that developed Asian countries have all been struck with very similar social factors that accompanied their development - increased westernization, worship of corporate culture and conformity to wage slavery, increased materialism, increased selfishness, increased divorce rates, weaker family bonds, decreased marriage rates, much lower birth rates, increased cost of living, sky-high property prices etc. In Singapore for example, the median wage has increased by only about 3-4 times since 1970 while the average price of a home has increased 100 times! (tells you what a lie development is but that's another story) It's no surprise that in such conditions, an increasing number of men cannot afford a home and less men are seen by women as viable marriage partners in not being able to afford a home, increasing the rate of hypergamy in the country.

Here's another stat for you. In Japan, more than 25% of men in their 30s REPORT THAT THEY HAVE NEVER HAD SEX! [/u][/b] In addition, 61.4% of unmarried men aged 18-34 do not have a girlfriend.

We're talking about social trends in developed countries and as the most developed country in Asia, Japan is at the forefront of that. It is also one of the most westernized countries with a suffocating, impregnable corporate culture, the people described as machine-like in their efficiency. Workaholicism is also rife in developed Asian countries, with Singapore and South Korea recently cited by a survey as being the countries with the longest working hours in the world. With working completely taking over your life like in corporate America, how does one have a meaningful social life? With mindless drones everywhere, how does one meet soulful women?

I also think that materialism (particularly for women in the form of brand consciousness and the love of flaunting expensive purchases to 'keep face') has affected developed Asian countries (Japan, S.Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore) arguably even more than America! A good majority of attractive Singaporean women consider it an essential to own a Louie Vutton bag for instance. Middle class women in these countries are arguably more aware of the top fashion brands in the world than your average suburban American woman and crave for these items. In Singapore, virtually EVERYONE owns either an iPhone, or Samsung Galaxy phone or at least a Blackberry. Not owning a smartphone is considered embarrassing! Given how sucked into the soulless materialistic consumerist culture these countries and in particular their women are, how comfortable or viable do you think it would be to date or even worse, marry their women?

Even if put aside my belief that the average Chinese woman has a much better, down to earth, real personality than the average girl from a developed Asian country, from an economic standpoint alone, how do you think your relative wealth or earning power would be like in a country like Japan or Singapore, where the mean GDP per capita is pretty close to that of America, as compared to in a country like China, where the average woman you meet is earning merely 300-500 dollars a month?

There are so many materialistic, selfish, consumerist 'Career women' (who by the way tend to be the most conforming to the status quo) who are earning more than the average man in these developed Asian countries. Together with westernization, feminism has also infiltrated these countries to some degree. Many of these women with their overly pragmatic mindset would be thinking, if I'm earning this much what does an average man who earns less than me have to offer me? They're holding out for multi-millionaire tom cruises baby, hence the dismal national statistics.

So let's not cite individual examples as proof of the dating viability in a given country. We can't use micro-stats to prove macro-statements. But I can tell you that the macro-stats in developed Asian countries don't look very good.

And if you were to get a guy who could speak Chinese/Japanese and get him to approach 5000 girls on the street in say, Japan, Taiwan or Singapore and then get him to try the same with 5000 girls on the street in a Chinese city, I'm pretty confident he'll much a much better time in China. But that's just my inference from what I've seen on both a micro and macro level, I can't prove it until the experiment is done. There's no doubt that guys can still approach girls in Japan and Taiwan and get lucky, it's just a matter of degree, and mind you this 'degree' is also subject to the qualities of the guy himself, but that's a constant, and we're making general comparisons among the variables, which are developed and developing Asian countries.

Having said that, I once dated a Taipei girl who was hot but still nice but that's just a micro-stat, I won't cite that as a general rule at all and nor should anyone else here. I would surmise that the ranking of these Asian countries, in terms of the viability of picking up girls, getting laid, getting into serious stable long term relationships and getting into a lasting marriage, from the most viable to the least viable, would be in the following order:

1. China (try to avoid Shanghai and Shenzhen if you're looking for good women, although they got a good share of decent domestic migrants who are more 'real')
2. Taiwan (quite a gap between 1 and 2 though) (I will say though that the likes of Taichung and Tainan are likely to be much better than Taipei)
3. South Korea/Hong Kong (HK guys don't worry so much though because of their proximity to China)
4. Singapore (Very westernized and materialistic, many people speak English as a first language, easy penetration of undesirable western values)
5. Japan (has been industrializing and opening up to the west for more than a century now, and it does seem to have taken its toll on it, just look at some of the national stats. The food remains very good though, delicious yet healthy)


You make good points. Personally, I'm not sure I agree with order of China over Taiwan or favorite cities in Taipei as far as white guy is concerned. I have approached well over a 1,000 girls in Taipei, a few in other parts of Taiwan, and a few dozen in China. The problem with much of my personal data is that it is dated. That's why I like to get fresh datapoints from new people when I get the chance because as we all know, places do tend to change over time.

Generally, from a few years ago, I've had a much better reception in Taiwan than China. The sense I get in China from a lot of people is that foreigners are too different to consider for serious relationships. Also, you see a lot more lone wolf girls (girls out by themselves) in Taiwan than China which are probably easier to approach unless u r good with groups. I suspect with the rise of China's economic power and profile, people are more likely to feel superior to outsiders as well. And the bigger cities do tend to draw the more attractive rural girls who often get corrupted to a degree by urban life. During my last trip a few weeks ago - Shenzhen to Guangzhou, I talked to a few people here and there. The attitude I sometimes encountered from locals was that men are supposed to support the women with an allowance and when they marry, an apartment. When I ask for figures, I'm usually surprised. Its as if everyone expects China's GDP per head will continue to grow like it has in the past. I've always sensed a stronger degreee of materialism in first and second tier China than anywhere in Taiwan.

Taiwan is a lot more middle class centric but has a suffered lackluster growth for over a decade. And the people seem much more open to foreignres in general. Yes, it is headed in a bad direction with the iPhone generation (my term) but I don't believe it's as far down that path as S. Korea or Japan. I can't be sure of this. But even these days, I encounter a fair number of down-to-earth hardworking humble types here. I guess a better appraoch for me would be to hit-up a few hundred girls here, try the same thing in a second or third tier Chinese city, and then compare results. On paper, Taiwan may look a lot like SP/HK/S. Korea/Japan. But in practice, I think the experience, at least as far as westerners approaching local women is concerned, is signficantly different in a good way.

Finally, regarding Taipei vs. Taichung or Kaoshiung, I personally prefer Taipei. Taipei has the best looking girls, is more urban and international, and probably has the highest acceptance rate of foreigners. I've always felt more of a cultural barrier with people when I visited the center and south. And the smaller cities such as Chiayi or Tainan are absolutely dead. Taipei people are fairly refined but still more hospitable and friendly towards foreigenrs and outsiders than people in say SP or HK.
Rock
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Postby ph_visitor » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:44 am

I must comment here on the constant mention of sentiments like this:

"If you can speak Chinese, then you will be able to..."

This is like stating:

"If you have 6 PhD's then you will be able to..."

Chinese is nearly impossible to learn to speak. Anyone reading your statement should know that it will take 5 to 10 YEARS to speak it so that you can converse with locals at a level that enables you to flirt and meet women.

It will take you 10 years to become functionally illiterate, in that you will be able to poorly speak the language and below fluency level, and you won't be able to read crap.

Those of you who disagree are:

1) Young
2) Gifted in the ability to learn Chinese
3) Learned it in your family growing up

The Chinese study the language for about 10,000 hours by the time they graduate University.

You, on the other hand, spent only 1,500 hours learning English in school.

If you are over 25, the difficultly increases and if you are over 50 it is just about impossible.

You will spend years with almost no improvement.

It's that bad.

There are dozens of aspects to the Chinese language that don't exist in other languages, and just being able to speak it poorly and not read it (in other words, to be illiterate) is a phenomenal accomplishment.

Then, even when you DO speak it, you will discover that you speak it with XXX accent/dialect and that no one outside of that area understands you when you travel.

I know about 50 expats. 3 speak ANY of it. Everyone else has given up or is not understood when they speak it.

You need to be:

-Young
-Linguistically gifted with Chinese
-A near genius

To learn Chinese as an adult after learning English as your native tongue.
ph_visitor
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Postby Rock » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:16 pm

ph_visitor wrote:I must comment here on the constant mention of sentiments like this:

"If you can speak Chinese, then you will be able to..."

This is like stating:

"If you have 6 PhD's then you will be able to..."

Chinese is nearly impossible to learn to speak. Anyone reading your statement should know that it will take 5 to 10 YEARS to speak it so that you can converse with locals at a level that enables you to flirt and meet women.

It will take you 10 years to become functionally illiterate, in that you will be able to poorly speak the language and below fluency level, and you won't be able to read crap.

Those of you who disagree are:

1) Young
2) Gifted in the ability to learn Chinese
3) Learned it in your family growing up

The Chinese study the language for about 10,000 hours by the time they graduate University.

You, on the other hand, spent only 1,500 hours learning English in school.

If you are over 25, the difficultly increases and if you are over 50 it is just about impossible.

You will spend years with almost no improvement.

It's that bad.

There are dozens of aspects to the Chinese language that don't exist in other languages, and just being able to speak it poorly and not read it (in other words, to be illiterate) is a phenomenal accomplishment.

Then, even when you DO speak it, you will discover that you speak it with XXX accent/dialect and that no one outside of that area understands you when you travel.

I know about 50 expats. 3 speak ANY of it. Everyone else has given up or is not understood when they speak it.

You need to be:

-Young
-Linguistically gifted with Chinese
-A near genius

To learn Chinese as an adult after learning English as your native tongue.


Well I have to disagree with you as I do not fall within 1-3 above. You don't need to have a native command of the language to use it effectively for meeting girls. There are many shortcuts. I can tell you with conviction that I picked-up enough conversational Mandarin in 12-18 months so that I was able to use it effectively for meeting girls face-to-face and working them over the phone. Within 2 years, I was able to use it for sales, business presentations, and radio interviews. And I am certainly no language genius like Ladislav.

The most challenging aspect to practical verbal Mandarin for a native English speaking American are the tones. But there are only 4 of them plus a neutral one and they are relatively straightforward when compared to those of most Chinese dialects or other tonal languages. Fortunately, Mandarin is extremely simple grammar wise (no verb conjugations, articles, subject dependance, etc. The word order is mostly intuitive to us. And almost all the sounds used have a direct equivalent or very close approximation from American English, very different from some dialects such as Cantonese or Southern Min dialect common in Taiwan.

So what are the shortcuts?

1. Spend a lot of time drilling on the sounds, the basic pronunciation (standard Taiwan or Beijing style). Its boring and tedious but critical to being widely understood in the longer run. Don't skimp with this stage.

2. Find a language exchange partner (LE) with a reasonably good accent or better, who speaks slowly and clearly by habit, and has a voice you find soothing and nice to listen too. Have her spend at least 3 days a week just talking to you about very simple things in Mandarin using body language and other visual cues to give you an idea of what she's talking about.

3. Augment your LE sessions with 2-3 hour a day self study using all materials available on Mandarin from Pimsleur and Rosetta Stone. With Pimsleur, focus very hard on learning to accurately re-produce the sounds made by the speaker at the same natural speed, even if this slows down your progress. Better to learn one unit well than 2 units half-ass. Pronunciation, intonation, and tones are critical to being understood.

4. As you pick-up stuff, practice it on the street. Make some friends in your area and ask them to correct you when something from the classroom work doesn't match the local style. Its a lot of fun and encouraging as you are able to say more and more. Just for the hell of it, watch a few minutes of local sit-coms and/or news broadcasts each day. Once in awhile, mimick what people say trying to copy them exactly. More genrally, if you want to be understood, spend time mimicking locals, especially phrases and expressions you often hear them use.

5. After 3-5 months, you can develop a list of specific phrases and and words which you will need for things you often want to talk more about but are still above your level. Get your LE partner or other local to help you translate those into practical Chinese, burn them into your brain so you can say them quickly and naturally, and then practice using them as situations call for.

6. With time, you will learn to also understand the accent of your region, not just standard form. For example, I can easily understand most Mandarin spoken by those with a heavy Taiwanese accent but still prefer standard versions. Adjusting to an accent does not take much time if you have a solid base in the standard version.

7. If you live in-country for a year and practice 4-6 hours per day (directly or indirectly), you may get fairly fluent in broad range of popular topics within a year or so. Part of your progress will depend on your starting age and whether or not you have a naturally good ear for tones (some people are almost tone deaf). But I do believe its doable to a worthwhile level for most who give it a solid shot and totally commit at least one year. Once your reach a critical point, it will become a virtuous cycle. You will know enough to have meaningful and fun conversations with locals and can use it as key tool for picking-up other aspects of the host culture as locals share with you. The process will go from tedious to enjoyable.

As a side note, China has gotten much better for the speaker of standard Taiwan or Beijing style Mandarin. Just a decade ago, it was hard for them to be understood by many in the more southern regions. But with all the movement and development, I find that you can do just fine now, even in provinces like Guangdong. I was suprised ot hear a lot more Mandarin than Canto during my recent trip to Guangzhou. Perhaps in certain 3rd and especially 4th tier parts, you will struggle communicating with some in Mandarin. But generally, if you get a handle on a standard version of Mandarin, you got China covered.
Rock
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Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:16 pm

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