After recent developments, we now have 2 additional reasons to add to the list. Here they are.
11. Taiwan now has the lowest birthrate in the world.
See these stats:
Why Has Taiwan's Birthrate Dropped So Low?
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 37,00.html
Taiwan Birth Rate Falls to World’s Lowest
http://www.voanews.com/content/taiwan-b ... 67887.html
Therefore, if women are not wanting marriage and family, or avoiding it for some reason, then they aren't into dating either (since dating in Taiwan is seen as a stepping stone to marriage). What this means is they aren't into men, and that for sure, does NOT make Taiwan a dating paradise where women are easy to pick up and approach.
(Sure, you can see couples all over Taiwan (some of them could be in the friends stage of course) but you can see couples all over the USA too, does that mean the USA is a dating paradise where women are easy to pick up and approach? lol)
12. Flirting has a negative connotation in Taiwan and even the word itself is a bad word. Since flirting is considered bad and creepy in Taiwan, as Mark explained, and Taiwan girls hate flirtation in general, then obviously flirting, approaching or picking up girls in Taiwan is considered inappropriate, according to its culture. Given that, there's no way that Taiwan can be a dating paradise where girls are easy to pick up or approach. Not being allowed to flirt is a tremendous handicap and highly indicative of a PRUDISH culture. I shouldn't have to tell you that no "prudish" culture can be a pick up paradise, at least not on the surface. Even Rock's tenant told me on the phone that Taiwan girls don't like guys who flirt.
Therefore, with 12 logical reasons and lines of evidence, photos demonstrating my claims with hard evidence (the ones I posted from the nightclub, letters and observations from long term expats in Taiwan that I posted, and the agreement of virtually EVERY local Taiwanese in Taiwan that I'm right - all of this constitutes a FRICKING HUGE MASSIVE SHITLOAD of evidence against Rock's claims.
In contrast, all Rock has are BIG TALK, BS claims, and words! No action to prove them!
I rest my case.
I know this debate is totally one-sided and Rock has been totally whipped, but hey, I'm not the one making BS claims and delusions that conflict with reality. He is. Not my fault that this is so one-sided.
12 Logical Reasons Why Rock's Taiwan Claims Can't Be True
Reasons #11 and 12
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Well well guess what happened today? At the supermarket, an older lady asked me whether I liked Taiwan or America better. After I gave her the pros and cons of each, she told me that the reason young girls in Taiwan are so closed "bao so" and not open with strangers, is because they were taught to be that way by their parents and by the news media, which tells them that there are many "criminals and bad men" out there. (I guess Taiwan is anti-male too in a way) She said that when she was in her 20's, she was also very closed and stone faced.
We had a long talk about this truth and about my site. I wish Rock had been there. I could have had her tell him that Taiwan girls are closed toward strangers. This is something everyone here knows. Therefore, it's an objective fact.
So what is Rock's problem? Why is he the only one or one of the few delusional guys who think that Taiwan girls are open and approachable? Isn't that weird? Why is he so delusional? Is it deliberate?
How can every Taiwanese person admit the obvious about Taiwan girls being very closed (bao so), yet Rock denies it? So frickin weird. Does anyone have a logical explanation for this? Or is Rock simply delusional?
Even if Rock was there, and the supermarket lady told him the obvious, I doubt that he'd admit that he's wrong, even if other local Taiwanese tell him so directly. He is just too stubborn and religiously fanatical about Taiwan being a dating paradise for everyone except me.
We had a long talk about this truth and about my site. I wish Rock had been there. I could have had her tell him that Taiwan girls are closed toward strangers. This is something everyone here knows. Therefore, it's an objective fact.
So what is Rock's problem? Why is he the only one or one of the few delusional guys who think that Taiwan girls are open and approachable? Isn't that weird? Why is he so delusional? Is it deliberate?
How can every Taiwanese person admit the obvious about Taiwan girls being very closed (bao so), yet Rock denies it? So frickin weird. Does anyone have a logical explanation for this? Or is Rock simply delusional?
Even if Rock was there, and the supermarket lady told him the obvious, I doubt that he'd admit that he's wrong, even if other local Taiwanese tell him so directly. He is just too stubborn and religiously fanatical about Taiwan being a dating paradise for everyone except me.
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Winston, I don't see how you can attempt to analyze "rock" without first reading his posts on wsg
(where is hkasiaphile).
Of course, you can't read them all since there are hundreds, but you can sample them. You can
even read some of them just by using google.
p.s. I was a bit amused by a recent thread you made, where you (and everyone) kept
using the term psychopath and sociopath interchangeably, (including the guy who
you refer to as an expert in psychology, becuase he is a "retired mental health counselor")
I always laugh when i think about that (the latter, that is). However, I mistakenly
used the word psychopath, when i meant to use sociopath, when characterizing "rock".
Buy seriously, rocks denial (in the earlier thread) of his "utilization" of of wsg and isg was
pretty funny.
(where is hkasiaphile).
Of course, you can't read them all since there are hundreds, but you can sample them. You can
even read some of them just by using google.
p.s. I was a bit amused by a recent thread you made, where you (and everyone) kept
using the term psychopath and sociopath interchangeably, (including the guy who
you refer to as an expert in psychology, becuase he is a "retired mental health counselor")
I always laugh when i think about that (the latter, that is). However, I mistakenly
used the word psychopath, when i meant to use sociopath, when characterizing "rock".
Buy seriously, rocks denial (in the earlier thread) of his "utilization" of of wsg and isg was
pretty funny.
Oh. Well can you post the link to his posts on WSG? On his profile, you should see a link to "View his posts" that will show a composite of all his posts. Can you post that link here?gggg wrote:Winston, I don't see how you can attempt to analyze "rock" without first reading his posts on wsg
(where is hkasiaphile).
Of course, you can't read them all since there are hundreds, but you can sample them. You can
even read some of them just by using google.
p.s. I was a bit amused by a recent thread you made, where you (and everyone) kept
using the term psychopath and sociopath interchangeably, (including the guy who
you refer to as an expert in psychology, becuase he is a "retired mental health counselor")
I always laugh when i think about that (the latter, that is). However, I mistakenly
used the word psychopath, when i meant to use sociopath, when characterizing "rock".
Buy seriously, rocks denial (in the earlier thread) of his "utilization" of of wsg and isg was
pretty funny.
You said that he posted on WSG about going to the club with his Indian tenant to try to pick up girls. If you can show that post, it would be conclusive proof that it was Rock. Can you post the link to it?
What's the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath?
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You know, come to think of it, in a sense, Rock is the one who has FAILED, not me, because he has FAILED to prove that Taiwan is a dating paradise, whereas I never claimed it was.
If he was right about Taiwan being an easy place to get a girlfriend in, then he would have a logical explanation or solution that I could use to get girls here. But he has none.
For years, he has failed to give a simple solution to the following:
- How to get Taiwan girls to stop and talk to you. They always walk on by you like you don't exist, no matter what you say.
- How to stop them from flaking out. Even when you meet them, they often flake or are only platonic, which is no fun.
- How to overcome their super cold wall and super pickiness.
- How to create chemistry with them if they are prudish and platonic with you, and see flirting as a negative thing.
If Taiwan was an easy dating culture, Rock would have a solution to the above that I can easily implement that would WORK! But he doesn't. I've asked him to provide a solution to the above, and he has none. All he does is speak in vague obscure terms.
What does that tell you all??? Use common sense.
If he was right about Taiwan being an easy place to get a girlfriend in, then he would have a logical explanation or solution that I could use to get girls here. But he has none.
For years, he has failed to give a simple solution to the following:
- How to get Taiwan girls to stop and talk to you. They always walk on by you like you don't exist, no matter what you say.
- How to stop them from flaking out. Even when you meet them, they often flake or are only platonic, which is no fun.
- How to overcome their super cold wall and super pickiness.
- How to create chemistry with them if they are prudish and platonic with you, and see flirting as a negative thing.
If Taiwan was an easy dating culture, Rock would have a solution to the above that I can easily implement that would WORK! But he doesn't. I've asked him to provide a solution to the above, and he has none. All he does is speak in vague obscure terms.
What does that tell you all??? Use common sense.
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Repatriate
- Veteran Poster
- Posts: 2533
- Joined: June 15th, 2008, 11:39 am
I don't understand why you insist on browbeating Rock and everyone else over and over about this issue. Didn't you already hang out with him once and he proved that he could open girls that you couldn't? Didn't you get ditched by a girl that he opened and convinced to go on a date with you? Even if the girls he opened weren't all that great looking he showed that there is a certain % of girls who are receptive to him and not to you. I have ABC friends who did just fine there while visiting relatives. My cousin is even married to a wealthy Taiwanese girl with looks that would be considered attractive in Taiwan and he MET HER IN THE U.S. TO BOOT where potential suitors were unlimited. 
You simply don't have the looks or personality for Taiwan. Get over it Winston, jesus. I know what you're saying is a negative reaction to being strongly rejected in your parent's native country. Go elsewhere for f**k's sake. Why do you keep living with your parents in a country where the women appear to loathe you so much? I thought you pulled enough monthly income to have better living options? Just face the reality and move on.
Also, when you approach every expat that is willing to entertain you and keep blabbering on and on about how cold Taiwanese women are and how you don't get any respect you are just showing your own insecurity and failure. You are really starting to sound like an asian Tom Arnold or Rodney Dangerfield. "I don't get any respect from these women, huzzah!"
I bet most of these guys don't have nearly as many problems as you seem to have with the women but they are willing to humor you. It's kind of sad to be honest. What you're doing is finding people with shoulders to cry on. Be a man for once in your life already. You ditched your son, the mother in your son, and you seem to be failing at Taiwan. Just MOVE ON.
You simply don't have the looks or personality for Taiwan. Get over it Winston, jesus. I know what you're saying is a negative reaction to being strongly rejected in your parent's native country. Go elsewhere for f**k's sake. Why do you keep living with your parents in a country where the women appear to loathe you so much? I thought you pulled enough monthly income to have better living options? Just face the reality and move on.
Also, when you approach every expat that is willing to entertain you and keep blabbering on and on about how cold Taiwanese women are and how you don't get any respect you are just showing your own insecurity and failure. You are really starting to sound like an asian Tom Arnold or Rodney Dangerfield. "I don't get any respect from these women, huzzah!"
I bet most of these guys don't have nearly as many problems as you seem to have with the women but they are willing to humor you. It's kind of sad to be honest. What you're doing is finding people with shoulders to cry on. Be a man for once in your life already. You ditched your son, the mother in your son, and you seem to be failing at Taiwan. Just MOVE ON.
Easy 5,000 NT challenge and test to Rock and his tenant Monkro posted here:
viewtopic.php?p=89821#89821
viewtopic.php?p=89821#89821
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Big question to all:
Suppose Rock has been totally honest and non-delusional in everything he said about Taiwan. Let's him him the benefit of the doubt for a moment.
How then, can you reconcile what he claims about most guys being able to get chicks in Taiwan easily (though not necessarily having their pick of the litter, that's another matter), with my claims about there being a cold wall around Taiwanese girls who do NOT want to be approached by male strangers? The cold wall is very real, it's NOT my imagination, and obviously, no guy is going to feel comfortable approaching a girl who doesn't want to be approached. Duh!
How do you reconcile those two contradictory claims?
Sure you can't say that girls with cold walls around them are approachable to everyone except me? Not even a redneck would be dumb enough to say that!
Also, since over 99 percent of guys don't have the guts to approach girls cold, where are these guys meeting these chicks? Don't you have to be a party animal to meet girls in cliquish societies? Not all guys are of course.
Can anyone here harmonize these two contradictory claims, assuming Rock is honest, and lay to rest this dispute once and for all?
Serious questions to Rock:
Rock,
A lot of your claims are vague. Even reading your past posts, it's not clear what you are claiming exactly. Can you clarify them?
1. Are you claiming that most guys are able to cold approach Taiwan girls in public? Yes or no?
2. How do you explain the fact that 99.99 percent of guys are NOT comfortable approaching a girl in public cold? And the fact that flirtation is not accepted in Taiwan and not liked by Taiwan girls?
3. If Taiwan girls are very approachable, how come no one is approaching them? Not even tall handsome guys are, since it's not socially appropriate. How do you explain that?
4. Where are these majority of guys you know meeting these girls, if they don't cold approach them?
5. Are you claiming that the cold wall I mention around Taiwan girls is not real and just an illusion? Seriously.
If 99 percent of guys aren't comfortable approaching girls cold, then there is no way in hell they would be comfortable approaching girls with cold walls around them. Come on now. Don't insult our intelligence.
We all know that a girl's attitude will rub off around the guys near her. So if a girl is nervous, fearful and closed, then the guy trying to chat her up will feel it too. Her attitude will rub off on him. He will feel nervous, fearful and annoyed as well. Obviously, two people who are nervous and fearful aren't going to chat up each other. It's unavoidable. No guy is going to do well in that situation. Duh.
6. If Taiwan girls are so open, then why are you afraid to approach any girls at the night market? The one here has 100+ hot girls wandering about. You can't even approach 1 out of 100+? If so, then why do you say that they are open and approachable?!?!
7. Do you dare flirt with Taiwan girls, when it's totally taboo here to do that? Can you flirt with girls in their 20's? If not, why do you say that Taiwan is a dating/pick up paradise?
(Flirting in Taiwan is akin to cussing profanity during a church service by the way, it doesn't fit the prudish culture here at all.)
8. Are you claiming that most guys in Taiwan have their pick of the litter, from ugly to hot? If so, why are most white guys dating unattractive Taiwanese girls? Why aren't they all dating hot ones?
If they don't have their pick of the litter and are just settling, then how can it be a dating paradise?
Thanks,
Winston
Suppose Rock has been totally honest and non-delusional in everything he said about Taiwan. Let's him him the benefit of the doubt for a moment.
How then, can you reconcile what he claims about most guys being able to get chicks in Taiwan easily (though not necessarily having their pick of the litter, that's another matter), with my claims about there being a cold wall around Taiwanese girls who do NOT want to be approached by male strangers? The cold wall is very real, it's NOT my imagination, and obviously, no guy is going to feel comfortable approaching a girl who doesn't want to be approached. Duh!
How do you reconcile those two contradictory claims?
Sure you can't say that girls with cold walls around them are approachable to everyone except me? Not even a redneck would be dumb enough to say that!
Also, since over 99 percent of guys don't have the guts to approach girls cold, where are these guys meeting these chicks? Don't you have to be a party animal to meet girls in cliquish societies? Not all guys are of course.
Can anyone here harmonize these two contradictory claims, assuming Rock is honest, and lay to rest this dispute once and for all?
Serious questions to Rock:
Rock,
A lot of your claims are vague. Even reading your past posts, it's not clear what you are claiming exactly. Can you clarify them?
1. Are you claiming that most guys are able to cold approach Taiwan girls in public? Yes or no?
2. How do you explain the fact that 99.99 percent of guys are NOT comfortable approaching a girl in public cold? And the fact that flirtation is not accepted in Taiwan and not liked by Taiwan girls?
3. If Taiwan girls are very approachable, how come no one is approaching them? Not even tall handsome guys are, since it's not socially appropriate. How do you explain that?
4. Where are these majority of guys you know meeting these girls, if they don't cold approach them?
5. Are you claiming that the cold wall I mention around Taiwan girls is not real and just an illusion? Seriously.
If 99 percent of guys aren't comfortable approaching girls cold, then there is no way in hell they would be comfortable approaching girls with cold walls around them. Come on now. Don't insult our intelligence.
We all know that a girl's attitude will rub off around the guys near her. So if a girl is nervous, fearful and closed, then the guy trying to chat her up will feel it too. Her attitude will rub off on him. He will feel nervous, fearful and annoyed as well. Obviously, two people who are nervous and fearful aren't going to chat up each other. It's unavoidable. No guy is going to do well in that situation. Duh.
6. If Taiwan girls are so open, then why are you afraid to approach any girls at the night market? The one here has 100+ hot girls wandering about. You can't even approach 1 out of 100+? If so, then why do you say that they are open and approachable?!?!
7. Do you dare flirt with Taiwan girls, when it's totally taboo here to do that? Can you flirt with girls in their 20's? If not, why do you say that Taiwan is a dating/pick up paradise?
(Flirting in Taiwan is akin to cussing profanity during a church service by the way, it doesn't fit the prudish culture here at all.)
8. Are you claiming that most guys in Taiwan have their pick of the litter, from ugly to hot? If so, why are most white guys dating unattractive Taiwanese girls? Why aren't they all dating hot ones?
If they don't have their pick of the litter and are just settling, then how can it be a dating paradise?
Thanks,
Winston
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How? By cold approach or by going to parties? Ask him to be specific. And ask him to answer the 8 questions above. Ask him if he thinks he can win my 5,000NT challenge.eurobrat wrote:My friend said I could probably have a girlfriend in 2 weeks if I moved to Taiwan.
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Well 80 percent of the girls are hot. That's what's so excruciating about it. If they weren't hot, you wouldn't care if they were approachable or not...eurobrat wrote:Winston what is the ratio of hot girls in Taiwan? Are Taiwanese girls usually single or do they like being in relationships?Winston wrote:How? By cold approach or by going to parties? Ask him to be specific. And ask him to answer the 8 questions above. Ask him if he thinks he can win my 5,000NT challenge.eurobrat wrote:My friend said I could probably have a girlfriend in 2 weeks if I moved to Taiwan.
I don't know how many are single. I'd say there are single girls, but they aren't very open or looking, and they are super picky.
How credible is your friend? Is he down to earth or a typical big talker?
Nothing is easy that's of any value. Come on now. This is the real world...
Most guys are full of shit. I'm one of the ones that isn't. Haven't you realized that by now?
Ask him to answer the 8 questions above, and if he can easily beat my challenge or not.
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Winston recently PMd me this post and asked me to address it on the forum. So here goes:Winston wrote:Big question to all:
Suppose Rock has been totally honest and non-delusional in everything he said about Taiwan. Let's him him the benefit of the doubt for a moment.
How then, can you reconcile what he claims about most guys being able to get chicks in Taiwan easily (though not necessarily having their pick of the litter, that's another matter), with my claims about there being a cold wall around Taiwanese girls who do NOT want to be approached by male strangers? The cold wall is very real, it's NOT my imagination, and obviously, no guy is going to feel comfortable approaching a girl who doesn't want to be approached. Duh!
How do you reconcile those two contradictory claims?
Sure you can't say that girls with cold walls around them are approachable to everyone except me? Not even a redneck would be dumb enough to say that!
Also, since over 99 percent of guys don't have the guts to approach girls cold, where are these guys meeting these chicks? Don't you have to be a party animal to meet girls in cliquish societies? Not all guys are of course.
Can anyone here harmonize these two contradictory claims, assuming Rock is honest, and lay to rest this dispute once and for all?
Serious questions to Rock:
Rock,
A lot of your claims are vague. Even reading your past posts, it's not clear what you are claiming exactly. Can you clarify them?
1. Are you claiming that most guys are able to cold approach Taiwan girls in public? Yes or no?
2. How do you explain the fact that 99.99 percent of guys are NOT comfortable approaching a girl in public cold? And the fact that flirtation is not accepted in Taiwan and not liked by Taiwan girls?
3. If Taiwan girls are very approachable, how come no one is approaching them? Not even tall handsome guys are, since it's not socially appropriate. How do you explain that?
4. Where are these majority of guys you know meeting these girls, if they don't cold approach them?
5. Are you claiming that the cold wall I mention around Taiwan girls is not real and just an illusion? Seriously.
If 99 percent of guys aren't comfortable approaching girls cold, then there is no way in hell they would be comfortable approaching girls with cold walls around them. Come on now. Don't insult our intelligence.
We all know that a girl's attitude will rub off around the guys near her. So if a girl is nervous, fearful and closed, then the guy trying to chat her up will feel it too. Her attitude will rub off on him. He will feel nervous, fearful and annoyed as well. Obviously, two people who are nervous and fearful aren't going to chat up each other. It's unavoidable. No guy is going to do well in that situation. Duh.
6. If Taiwan girls are so open, then why are you afraid to approach any girls at the night market? The one here has 100+ hot girls wandering about. You can't even approach 1 out of 100+? If so, then why do you say that they are open and approachable?!?!
7. Do you dare flirt with Taiwan girls, when it's totally taboo here to do that? Can you flirt with girls in their 20's? If not, why do you say that Taiwan is a dating/pick up paradise?
(Flirting in Taiwan is akin to cussing profanity during a church service by the way, it doesn't fit the prudish culture here at all.)
8. Are you claiming that most guys in Taiwan have their pick of the litter, from ugly to hot? If so, why are most white guys dating unattractive Taiwanese girls? Why aren't they all dating hot ones?
If they don't have their pick of the litter and are just settling, then how can it be a dating paradise?
Thanks,
Winston
I did not claim "most guys could get chicks in Taiwan" whatever that means. I did however say that I believe a large percentage of 'certain guys' which I defined as younger (up to 30-35), western (meaning white or perhaps dark skinned or black) beta males of average looks give or take a bit, would likely enjoy a large dating and social handicap in Taiwan vis-a-vis the US or other Anglo country as long as they are proactive about meeting local girls - cold approaches, online, networking, etc. Their prospects improve if they have a personality which meshes well with Taiwan and feel comfortable staying here. Softer spoken introverted types with a natural interest in something related to China or Taiwan often fit this bill.
What do I mean by dating handicap? It's the ability to date and be intimate with more, better looking, and younger girls than when in one's reference (Anglo) country. Understand, it's just a handicap though, not a magic wand. A handicap, unless it's extreme, does not enable any guy to get his 'pick of the litter'. Barring all forms of P4P, I don't think there's any country on this planet where you can get anyone you want unless you too are 'the pick of the litter' for most girls.
If you are really are only interested in dating girls who match your exact spec, I think the most effective strategy is to play a numbers game. You go only for girls who fit your type and you try enough times, chances are you can get one in Taiwan if you fall within the scope of 'certain guys' which I defined above. Remember, Taiwan is nothing like the Philippines. You see a large number of attractive girls out and about here on a daily basis here.
Eurobrat, based on info and photos he posted, is likely a solid candidate for the 'Taiwan advantage'. But Winston is not. That's why I recommended long ago that he leave for another country such as China, Thailand, or DR where he might have better luck. However, I have not focused my observations on ABCs here or older guys here so perhaps there may be other attractive opportunities for some guys in these groups as well. It's just that I'm not yet aware of any.
The Taiwan cold wall you perceive means it may require a lot of courage to cold approach. But cold approaching is just one of several ways to meet girls here. It depends on a guy's preferred method(s) and style(s). And this ice barrier you experience here is not absolute. Some are more sensitive to it than others.
To reconcile "most guys are able to get chicks in Taiwan easily" with "there is a cold wall around Taiwanese girls who do not want to be approached by male strangers", I say that the first statement is an exaggeration of what I claimed (certain vs. most) and the second one only applies to some girls and/or depends on who is approaching and how they approach (varies according to approacher and his method). So there are critical nuances which have been missed in your "Big question to all".
In addressing the questions directed specifically to me, I can shed a bit more light on this.
First, if my claims are vague, then why do you often falsely attribute specific concrete claims to me which I never made? When you do that, it derails the discussion.
Now for you 8 questions.
1. I think about anyone can cold approach Taiwan girls in public if they have the courage. So answer is Yes.
2. 99.9% of guys are not comfortable approaching a girl in public cold is not a proven fact. It's just an assumption you've arrived at from your own antidotal experience and discussions with others. Another assumption you make is that "flirtation is not accepted and not liked by Taiwan girls". First of all, I don't agree. Some Taiwan girls do like it under the right circumstances. Secondly, flirting and approaching are not the same thing. Even if a girl does not like for anyone to flirt with her, she may still be open to making friends with strangers who don't flirt.
3. I didn't claim that Taiwan girls are very approachable. But your assumption that no one is approaching them is false. Some of my friends have approached several quite recently. We both approached girls on trips to Taichung too. Just because something is not deemed by some or even most as socially appropriate does not mean no one is doing that as you and I proved last two times we were in Taichung. That's how I explain that.
4. Well the guys I know and have known met Taiwan girls in various ways including cold approaches, online, being approached first by the girl (yes it happens), meeting through friends, meeting through work, meeting through school, language exchanges, etc.
5. The cold wall you mention is an obstacle, but not always impossible to overcome. It's also sometimes relative as I explained above - "The Taiwan cold wall you perceive means it may require a lot of courage to cold approach. But cold approaching is just one of several ways to meet girls here. It depends on a guy's preferred method(s) and style(s). And this ice barrier you experience here is not absolute. Some are more sensitive to it than others.".
To have an effective logical discussion, you need to stop masking your assumptions as facts. 99% of guys are not comfortable approaching girls cold? Certainly not the case in my circle of friends. So don't insult my intelligence.
You talk about a person's attitude rubbing off on guys near her. So if the girl is nervous, fearful, and closed,, the guy trying to chat her up will feel it too. I actually think this depends on the guy. For example, I'm personally more comfortable trying to speak with timid girls than I am approaching overconfident western style chicks who may talk down to me with a hint of sarcasm. It's the latter type which intimidates me the most. Also, not all girls here are necessarily going to be nervous, fearful, and closed when approached. Remember Taichung? What, they weren't young and hot enough? Well, maybe if we had been 10 years younger, we would have had more courage and appeal to the cute 18 year olds we saw all over the train station area.
6. First, I've always been afraid to approach strangers. I grew up as an introverted loner who feared social interactions with my peers, especially females. But, once I started travelling, I managed this fear by breaking out of my comfort zone. I forced myself to approach and interact with hundreds female strangers frequently as if I was an insurance salesman. But I always felt the nervous tension inside. I just became adept at hiding it and not letting it affect my pitch. Secondly, and for the umpteenth time, I never claimed that Taiwan girls are so open. Third, I could approach single girls at a night market but I don't think I've ever been to the one you mention.
7. I normally didn't flirt with girls in Taiwan unless they indicated they are open to it. Generally, I would just express a sincere interest in making friends. If she accepted, then I would establish contact channels and hopefully work up closeness over the phone and dates. In the less common cases where she was visibly interested right off the bat, I might try to establish a seductive banter with her on the spot or over the phone as soon as I called her the first time. Generally, I did not aim for same night pulls. My sweet spot was 3-5 dates with lots of phone and text in between. If the girl really dug me, things would happen faster. If she didn't dig me at all, I generally wouldn't get much past the first date before things fizzled.
Another subtlety to understand is that flirting does not equal dating or intimacy. It's easy to find girls who will flirt with you in certain warmer cultures. But that does not mean they will date you or sleep with you. OTH, just because a girl is publicly reserved does not mean she won't get intimate with you. Just ask Momopi.
BTW, I don't think flirting here is nearly as taboo as you believe, at least in Taipei. In some venues, a lot of it goes on, guys at girls and girls at guys too. It's just usually more subtle and ambiguous (Taiwan style) to allow for face saving. And, its best done between people in same age group. An average looking guy who appears 30+ and directly flirts with 18- 21 year-olds will creep a lot of them out. With that sort of apparent age gap, he should be a lot more subtle and apply a passive strategy.
IMO, Taiwan is a social and dating paradise for many guys who fit my spec above because I believe they can do so much better here than either back at home or in so many other foreign countries.
8. No, I'm not.
Here's what I am saying from above, " I believe that a large percentage of 'certain guys' which I defined as younger (up to 30-35), western (meaning white or perhaps dark skinned or black) beta males of average looks give or take a bit, would likely enjoy a large dating and social handicap in Taiwan vis-a-vis the US or other Anglo country as long as they are proactive about meeting local girls through various means - cold approaches, online, networking, etc." There may also be attractive opportunities for other groups but that has never been the focus of my observation so I have not commented on it.
and
"What do I mean by dating handicap? It's the ability to date and be intimate with more, better looking, and younger girls than when in one's reference (Anglo) country. Understand, it's just a handicap though, not a magic wand. A handicap, unless it's extreme, does not enable any guy can get his 'pick of the litter'. Barring all forms of P4P, I don't think there's any country on this planet where you can get anyone you want unless you too are 'the pick of the litter' for most girls."
As for the answer to why are most white guys dating unattractive Taiwan girls, I believe this is again just your assumption. I actually believe they are more often with attractive girls here than in most if not all other Asian countries based on my personal observations and tastes.
Furthermore, the definition of hot or not is very subjective. Just look at the discussion I've been having with Devil's Advocate regarding a few women I posted vs. girls commonly seen with white guys in PI. What's hot for him is ugly for me and vice-versa.
Even if what you say about white guys only being with unattractive girls in Taiwan were true for 100% of them, that might be due, at least in part, to them choosing girls you find ugly but they happen to prefer.
Last edited by Rock on August 11th, 2012, 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why do I believe what I claim in my last post above - that Taiwan is strong HA destination for 'certain guys'?
1. From my own long-term personal experience. In the States, I did much worse than even Winston. In all my time there, I had only one intimate relationship with a local (white girl) and that lasted just a few months. After the break-up, I thought my life was over. I felt very ugly in the presence of white women and was afraid to even be around them. To this day, I feel very uncomfortable approaching or interacting socially with white women, even foreign ones. That may be the main reason I never gave Russia, Eastern Europe, or even Argentina a try even though I am very attracted to many of the taller and fuller figured Caucasian women.
Anyway, for a time after the cherry popper gf left me, I befriended a couple of older blacks (college dudes) and tried going for some girls at their all black parties. It was a great cultural experience and I was treated well as a guest. But my presence didn't generate any real interest from the 'sistas' so I got nowhere.
Then I then took a trip to Asia which changed everything. I visited several cities and countries. But nowhere did I get a reception as warm as in Taipei. By the time I returned to States from my short visit, I had at least a dozen Taiwanese girls writing me. I dated a Taiwanese girl in the States and later, two more in London. After finishing all levels of school, I eventually expatriated back to Taiwan for work and got all the girlfriends and dates I could ever want. This was with local college girls and newly minted career women. Some were very attractive to hot. Of course, when I cold approached, I got politely rejected all the time too but my batting average was high enough to make it worthwhile. And I met plenty of girls through other channels as well.
As time passed, I got a lot more selective and focused on those who matched specs. Granted, I had a high paying flash job, was youthful, clean-cut, innocent looking, and tall enough plus I spoke Mandarin and was sincerely interested in many things Taiwanese - an attractive package to many Taiwan gals even though I was invisible to my white sisters back home. So I was brimming with confidence at this stage which created a bit of a virtuous cycle.
Taiwan not only saved my social life, but also acted as a platform for me to overcome my fear of interacting with strangers. When Taiwanese reject me as a foreigner, they are usually polite and allow for face saving whereas in the US, the rejections can be painfully pointed, insulting, and harsh. Monkro strongly concurs with me on this point.
Deep at heart, I'm just as closed and weary of social interaction with unknown people as many of the shy Taiwanese. But I am very engaging and outgoing with people I know a bit better, especially one-on-one or in tiny groups. Perhaps that's why I feel so comfortable here.
2. From the experience of western friends and colleagues. I've known a lot of westerners here. Some did extremely well with Taiwan girls, some did OK, and others got nowhere. Although I could explain a lot of these results based on the specific details of each case, there were also mysterious X factors at work. So sometimes things happened very differently than I had predicted. For example, a well-qualified guy might do very poorly or someone with very little going for him could be a hit with a several local hotties.
Is Taipei still an attractive social and dating destination for 'certain guys' or have things changed?
My personal experience with cold approaching local girls here pretty much ceased in 2005-6 as I settled down into a long term relationship. Even the two years before that, I had been getting involved in other serious relationships so my approach activity level had slowed considerably. Presently, my last ex-gf who I am still friends with is under 30 and the current girl I'm dating here is just 24 and quite cute, albeit chubby, lol. So even if Taiwan has gotten worse, I'm still doing ok in spite of no longer falling within the 'certain guys' scope.
So has the Taipei social landscape taken a downturn with the Facebook and smartphone revolution?
Perhaps it has. Several new ultra chic and glitzy clubs with a cold and generic feel have opened-up in the Taipei 101 area displacing several of the older school venues dotted about town which brimmed with character, texture, and fun. The newest generation of girls you see out in the wee hours tend to be dolled-up divas either glued to their phones or locked into some closed group at a table or VIP room. So the Taipei club scene circa 2012 is surely not pretty for western guys if you compare to the underground dance hall era or the fifteen year period which followed the lifting of martial law (1987-2002). If u read enough about the Taipei's deep past on Forumosa (a Taiwan dedicated forum and website), you will learn that westerners were once so much in demand here as pop culture icons that certain clubs allowed them free entry while charging locals (men and women alike) a steep fee. Policy was, welcome the western guests, and the locals will follow en mass. So maybe the social arbitrage party for westerners has completely disappeared by now?
Not so fast. I still see a lot of encouraging signs from my daily observations of western guys in public plus the anecdotal datapoints I've collected and broadcast here over the last 2 years - French tenant, Dragonboy, Monkro, russj, and even myself. When I go out and about in Taipei during the day or hit the clubs at night, the western guys I generally see (not counting tourists in big hotels or at famous landmarks) are, much more often than not, with a Taiwanese date, gf, or even wife. Once in awhile, the girl looks damn hot to me, often she's very cute, other times more in average range, and less frequently, looks bad enough to remind me of the Pinays you generally see with white guys Phils. In the vast majority of cases, the guy and girl appear properly age matched meaning apparent age gaps are within 12 years. Clearly, if my eyes don't deceive me, a lot of westerners here are managing to meet, date, mate with, and sometimes even marry attractive local girls in spite of all the challenging obstacles these women may present at the surface level.
The apparent coldness Winston talks about may contrast sharply with the easy eye contact, smiles, and even overt flirting from young hotties some westerner guys may experience in the likes of Colombia or Brazil. But what is underneath it all? When you break into a Taiwan girl's world (assuming you are able), you often end up with a very trustworthy, loyal, and faithful partner. Many have good hearts and treat a man who takes good care of her emotional needs like a best friend and lover combined. On the other hand, that hot Latina in short shorts who just flashed you the seductive smile may be just celebrating her power over men. She can forget you in 5 minutes. Understand, the more a girl openly flirts in public, the less secure you are likely to be with her in a serious relationship. And if you're just looking for easy sex, well, that's a far cry from winks and smiles. I've interacted with a lot of both types - very shy vs. flirtatious - and my experience suggests that your chances at intimacy with either depends a lot more on other factors.
If was an American who had just graduated from uni and my main goal was to seek sexual adventures with lots of hot foreign women, I would probably consider a country like Brazil, Colombia, or Thailand. Those places have lots of attractive women available for no-strings attached type stuff and whenever you don't get lucky, there's plenty of reasonably priced P4P options with sexy and desirable providers right around the corner. But if I was seeking a serious relationship with an attractive to hot LT girlfriend, I would definitely head to Taiwan. While many of the foreigners do come here and end up playing the field (kid in candy store phenomenon), Taiwan's real value is for serious relationships. Garden variety Taipei girls generally look great, are slim to average, of decent height, dress with style, are well educated, hard working, loyal, thrifty, and respect men. Their values are more aligned with what we are used to in the west and contrast sharply with many of the women you will likely encounter in SE Asia. Vast majority of Taiwan women don't smoke, do drugs, or sport tattoos. Majority drinks modestly and many not at all. But they are not prudes in that if you date them, sex is par for the course. Many get involved in more casual encounters if the right guy comes a long too.
What about the extremely low birth-rate here?
It does seem odd that these developed NE Asian cultures, known worldwide for the high value they place on family and children, now experience the lowest birthrates on the planet. So why is that and how does it impact Taiwan as a HA destination? Well, I don't have the sure answers to those questions so I'm just going to speculate here. Additional input from Momopi, Falcon, and anyone else who is likely to have ideas about this is most welcome.
Perhaps some Taiwan women are fed-up with the old social contract which, depending on husband's circumstances, may require her to live under one roof with his family and endure daily pressure to please the in-laws, do the housework, etc.; especially down-country. Combine that frustration with the rising career and economic opportunities for women over last 2 decades and many may be opting not to marry, let alone bear children. But Taiwan's raw marriage and divorce rates appear middle of the road from a global perspective at roughly 6.5 and 2.5 respectively per 1,000 population per year - a far cry from its record low birth rate. So it looks like a big part of the explanation is that couple are just having fewer children on average than in most other parts of the world. This may be due mainly to economic reasons. Taiwanese who are not financially prepared to provide a good quality life for (additional) children are more likely forego having them. Also, there may be a new trend for younger people to break away from tradition and live independent lives. A significant number of late 20s to 30 something women prefer to enjoy life on their terms instead of signing away their freedom in a local marriage contract and sealing the deal socially with a traditional wedding party.
From a HA perspective, I don't think the low birthrate is necessarily a bad thing. First of all, in Taiwan, you are much less likely to encounter single mothers in the pool of available women for any age group than in any of the HA hotspots. Personally, I've rarely met them on my countless approaches here over the years and have no experience dating any. Secondly, while the focus of my past posts on Taiwan has been on the youngest adult women (18 - late 20s), the rising number of single and available 30+ers may present a new opportunity for those who wish to pursue them, especially older guys. Taiwan women tend to hold their looks well through their 30s, have great skin, and are often still very sexually attractive.
1. From my own long-term personal experience. In the States, I did much worse than even Winston. In all my time there, I had only one intimate relationship with a local (white girl) and that lasted just a few months. After the break-up, I thought my life was over. I felt very ugly in the presence of white women and was afraid to even be around them. To this day, I feel very uncomfortable approaching or interacting socially with white women, even foreign ones. That may be the main reason I never gave Russia, Eastern Europe, or even Argentina a try even though I am very attracted to many of the taller and fuller figured Caucasian women.
Anyway, for a time after the cherry popper gf left me, I befriended a couple of older blacks (college dudes) and tried going for some girls at their all black parties. It was a great cultural experience and I was treated well as a guest. But my presence didn't generate any real interest from the 'sistas' so I got nowhere.
Then I then took a trip to Asia which changed everything. I visited several cities and countries. But nowhere did I get a reception as warm as in Taipei. By the time I returned to States from my short visit, I had at least a dozen Taiwanese girls writing me. I dated a Taiwanese girl in the States and later, two more in London. After finishing all levels of school, I eventually expatriated back to Taiwan for work and got all the girlfriends and dates I could ever want. This was with local college girls and newly minted career women. Some were very attractive to hot. Of course, when I cold approached, I got politely rejected all the time too but my batting average was high enough to make it worthwhile. And I met plenty of girls through other channels as well.
As time passed, I got a lot more selective and focused on those who matched specs. Granted, I had a high paying flash job, was youthful, clean-cut, innocent looking, and tall enough plus I spoke Mandarin and was sincerely interested in many things Taiwanese - an attractive package to many Taiwan gals even though I was invisible to my white sisters back home. So I was brimming with confidence at this stage which created a bit of a virtuous cycle.
Taiwan not only saved my social life, but also acted as a platform for me to overcome my fear of interacting with strangers. When Taiwanese reject me as a foreigner, they are usually polite and allow for face saving whereas in the US, the rejections can be painfully pointed, insulting, and harsh. Monkro strongly concurs with me on this point.
Deep at heart, I'm just as closed and weary of social interaction with unknown people as many of the shy Taiwanese. But I am very engaging and outgoing with people I know a bit better, especially one-on-one or in tiny groups. Perhaps that's why I feel so comfortable here.
2. From the experience of western friends and colleagues. I've known a lot of westerners here. Some did extremely well with Taiwan girls, some did OK, and others got nowhere. Although I could explain a lot of these results based on the specific details of each case, there were also mysterious X factors at work. So sometimes things happened very differently than I had predicted. For example, a well-qualified guy might do very poorly or someone with very little going for him could be a hit with a several local hotties.
Is Taipei still an attractive social and dating destination for 'certain guys' or have things changed?
My personal experience with cold approaching local girls here pretty much ceased in 2005-6 as I settled down into a long term relationship. Even the two years before that, I had been getting involved in other serious relationships so my approach activity level had slowed considerably. Presently, my last ex-gf who I am still friends with is under 30 and the current girl I'm dating here is just 24 and quite cute, albeit chubby, lol. So even if Taiwan has gotten worse, I'm still doing ok in spite of no longer falling within the 'certain guys' scope.
So has the Taipei social landscape taken a downturn with the Facebook and smartphone revolution?
Perhaps it has. Several new ultra chic and glitzy clubs with a cold and generic feel have opened-up in the Taipei 101 area displacing several of the older school venues dotted about town which brimmed with character, texture, and fun. The newest generation of girls you see out in the wee hours tend to be dolled-up divas either glued to their phones or locked into some closed group at a table or VIP room. So the Taipei club scene circa 2012 is surely not pretty for western guys if you compare to the underground dance hall era or the fifteen year period which followed the lifting of martial law (1987-2002). If u read enough about the Taipei's deep past on Forumosa (a Taiwan dedicated forum and website), you will learn that westerners were once so much in demand here as pop culture icons that certain clubs allowed them free entry while charging locals (men and women alike) a steep fee. Policy was, welcome the western guests, and the locals will follow en mass. So maybe the social arbitrage party for westerners has completely disappeared by now?
Not so fast. I still see a lot of encouraging signs from my daily observations of western guys in public plus the anecdotal datapoints I've collected and broadcast here over the last 2 years - French tenant, Dragonboy, Monkro, russj, and even myself. When I go out and about in Taipei during the day or hit the clubs at night, the western guys I generally see (not counting tourists in big hotels or at famous landmarks) are, much more often than not, with a Taiwanese date, gf, or even wife. Once in awhile, the girl looks damn hot to me, often she's very cute, other times more in average range, and less frequently, looks bad enough to remind me of the Pinays you generally see with white guys Phils. In the vast majority of cases, the guy and girl appear properly age matched meaning apparent age gaps are within 12 years. Clearly, if my eyes don't deceive me, a lot of westerners here are managing to meet, date, mate with, and sometimes even marry attractive local girls in spite of all the challenging obstacles these women may present at the surface level.
The apparent coldness Winston talks about may contrast sharply with the easy eye contact, smiles, and even overt flirting from young hotties some westerner guys may experience in the likes of Colombia or Brazil. But what is underneath it all? When you break into a Taiwan girl's world (assuming you are able), you often end up with a very trustworthy, loyal, and faithful partner. Many have good hearts and treat a man who takes good care of her emotional needs like a best friend and lover combined. On the other hand, that hot Latina in short shorts who just flashed you the seductive smile may be just celebrating her power over men. She can forget you in 5 minutes. Understand, the more a girl openly flirts in public, the less secure you are likely to be with her in a serious relationship. And if you're just looking for easy sex, well, that's a far cry from winks and smiles. I've interacted with a lot of both types - very shy vs. flirtatious - and my experience suggests that your chances at intimacy with either depends a lot more on other factors.
If was an American who had just graduated from uni and my main goal was to seek sexual adventures with lots of hot foreign women, I would probably consider a country like Brazil, Colombia, or Thailand. Those places have lots of attractive women available for no-strings attached type stuff and whenever you don't get lucky, there's plenty of reasonably priced P4P options with sexy and desirable providers right around the corner. But if I was seeking a serious relationship with an attractive to hot LT girlfriend, I would definitely head to Taiwan. While many of the foreigners do come here and end up playing the field (kid in candy store phenomenon), Taiwan's real value is for serious relationships. Garden variety Taipei girls generally look great, are slim to average, of decent height, dress with style, are well educated, hard working, loyal, thrifty, and respect men. Their values are more aligned with what we are used to in the west and contrast sharply with many of the women you will likely encounter in SE Asia. Vast majority of Taiwan women don't smoke, do drugs, or sport tattoos. Majority drinks modestly and many not at all. But they are not prudes in that if you date them, sex is par for the course. Many get involved in more casual encounters if the right guy comes a long too.
What about the extremely low birth-rate here?
It does seem odd that these developed NE Asian cultures, known worldwide for the high value they place on family and children, now experience the lowest birthrates on the planet. So why is that and how does it impact Taiwan as a HA destination? Well, I don't have the sure answers to those questions so I'm just going to speculate here. Additional input from Momopi, Falcon, and anyone else who is likely to have ideas about this is most welcome.
Perhaps some Taiwan women are fed-up with the old social contract which, depending on husband's circumstances, may require her to live under one roof with his family and endure daily pressure to please the in-laws, do the housework, etc.; especially down-country. Combine that frustration with the rising career and economic opportunities for women over last 2 decades and many may be opting not to marry, let alone bear children. But Taiwan's raw marriage and divorce rates appear middle of the road from a global perspective at roughly 6.5 and 2.5 respectively per 1,000 population per year - a far cry from its record low birth rate. So it looks like a big part of the explanation is that couple are just having fewer children on average than in most other parts of the world. This may be due mainly to economic reasons. Taiwanese who are not financially prepared to provide a good quality life for (additional) children are more likely forego having them. Also, there may be a new trend for younger people to break away from tradition and live independent lives. A significant number of late 20s to 30 something women prefer to enjoy life on their terms instead of signing away their freedom in a local marriage contract and sealing the deal socially with a traditional wedding party.
From a HA perspective, I don't think the low birthrate is necessarily a bad thing. First of all, in Taiwan, you are much less likely to encounter single mothers in the pool of available women for any age group than in any of the HA hotspots. Personally, I've rarely met them on my countless approaches here over the years and have no experience dating any. Secondly, while the focus of my past posts on Taiwan has been on the youngest adult women (18 - late 20s), the rising number of single and available 30+ers may present a new opportunity for those who wish to pursue them, especially older guys. Taiwan women tend to hold their looks well through their 30s, have great skin, and are often still very sexually attractive.
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momopi
- Elite Upper Class Poster
- Posts: 4898
- Joined: August 31st, 2007, 9:44 pm
- Location: Orange County, California
1. Until you actually go to TW, you won't know how well the locals will interact with you.eurobrat wrote:My friend said I could probably have a girlfriend in 2 weeks if I moved to Taiwan.
2. If you get a GF in 2 weeks, you didn't take the time and effort to really look around.
3. Do not end up like this friend of mine who went to teach English in TW and got nabbed by an expired Xmas cake within the first month, then get her pregnant by 2nd month. He spent the next couple of years changing diapers at home instead of going out.
If he's willing to lower his standards and go to places known for local women chasing after foreigners, he can prolly get a girl easily. But that would also greatly increase his STD risk.Winston wrote:How? By cold approach or by going to parties? Ask him to be specific. And ask him to answer the 8 questions above. Ask him if he thinks he can win my 5,000NT challenge.eurobrat wrote:My friend said I could probably have a girlfriend in 2 weeks if I moved to Taiwan.
Taiwan has low birth rate due to a very high abortion rate. You cannot get an abortion unless if you got pregnant, and you cannot get pregnant unless if you're having sex. Young couples in TW are hooking up and humping like rabbits from college age onwards, otherwise the love motel business and abortion clinics would be in decline and not on the rise. I've had a few GF's in TW and none were virgins. What is important to note is that despite the importation of 400,000 foreign brides to TW and 1-2 million Taiwanese going to China, TW does not have a "man shortage" due to the historical gender imbalance at birth.Winston wrote:After recent developments, we now have 2 additional reasons to add to the list. Here they are.
11. Taiwan now has the lowest birthrate in the world.
See these stats:
Why Has Taiwan's Birthrate Dropped So Low?
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 37,00.html
Taiwan Birth Rate Falls to World’s Lowest
http://www.voanews.com/content/taiwan-b ... 67887.html
Therefore, if women are not wanting marriage and family, or avoiding it for some reason, then they aren't into dating either (since dating in Taiwan is seen as a stepping stone to marriage). What this means is they aren't into men, and that for sure, does NOT make Taiwan a dating paradise where women are easy to pick up and approach.
The birth rate and gender ratio at birth today affects the dating market 20 years from now, not today. The natural gender ratio at birth is 105 boys to 100 girls. In 1990, South Korea's gender ratio at birth was 117.2 boys to 100 girls. So today, in 2012, there are 117 boys : 100 girls in college age. In Taiwan, the gender ratio at birth was 110 boys : 100 girls in 1990, and today it's 109 boys : 100 girls. People often have the false impression that the parents are aborting baby girls on 1st pregnancy. In actuality the sex ratio at first pregnancy is very normal, it's the 2nd and 3rd child that often involves gender-selected abortions.
http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?o ... Itemid=393
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/a ... 2003520201
http://www.economist.com/node/15636231
Look at the chart above. In 1992, when a South Korea mother gives birth to her 3rd child, the gender ratio is almost 200 boys : 100 girls.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAza30Iq ... re=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stCYozWu ... re=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va5qjMH_ ... re=related[/youtube]
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