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Why is Taiwan so alienating, lonely, disconnected, negative?

Discuss culture, living, traveling, relocating, dating or anything related to the Asian countries - China, The Philippines, Thailand, etc.

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Postby momopi » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:26 am

...you've been recycling the same complaints for ? years now?

http://www.orientexpat.com/forum/21396- ... in-taiwan/
http://www.orientexpat.com/forum/16641- ... in-taiwan/

Why are people cold to you? Because you're on the "out".

If you're on the "in" with in-group/out-group boundaries, people will treat you well with hospitality, reciprocal, familial terms & good faith. Traveling and need a place to stay? Hospitality will be offered. Unemployed? They'll ask around for you. Looking to get married? Incoming hook-ups. Run a business? Incoming referrals. But if you're on the "out", you get a stone wall.

In relationships it's the same. You are either in or out. Once she decides that you are "in", you get everything. Cold in public, hot in private. If you're "out" then she has no reason to touch you.

Don't like it? Vote with your feet.
Last edited by momopi on Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Jester » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:43 am

momopi wrote:...you've been recycling the same complaints for ? years now?

http://www.orientexpat.com/forum/21396- ... in-taiwan/
http://www.orientexpat.com/forum/16641- ... in-taiwan/


Hilarious!

Winston is the Rodney Dangerfield of dating. Making a living through knocking himself in public.
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Postby Winston » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:04 pm

momopi wrote:...you've been recycling the same complaints for ? years now?

http://www.orientexpat.com/forum/21396- ... in-taiwan/
http://www.orientexpat.com/forum/16641- ... in-taiwan/

Why are people cold to you? Because you're on the "out".

If you're on the "in" with in-group/out-group boundaries, people will treat you well with hospitality, reciprocal, familial terms & good faith. Traveling and need a place to stay? Hospitality will be offered. Unemployed? They'll ask around for you. Looking to get married? Incoming hook-ups. Run a business? Incoming referrals. But if you're on the "out", you get a stone wall.

In relationships it's the same. You are either in or out. Once she decides that you are "in", you get everything. Cold in public, hot in private. If you're "out" then she has no reason to touch you.

Don't like it? Vote with your feet.


Because you keep giving me the same answers but not addressing my questions. I'm not asking you to say "Vote with your feet" or "Leave if you don't like it". I'm asking you for REASONS WHY Taiwan isn't as friendly as other countries are.

Why can't I start up a conversation easily and naturally in Taiwan like I can in other countries? Why is there a cold wall around Taiwan girls that doesn't exist in most other countries?

What's the REASON? You aren't giving me any reasons. That's why I keep asking over and over again.

Why aren't Taiwanese girls like European girls? Why aren't they as easy to talk to? Why are they different? You're not giving me REASONS.

Rock's reason turned out to be false. He said it was because Taiwanese girls are small and fragile and afraid of me, whereas Euro white women are strong and masculine and can kick my ass. He was joking, but this doesn't explain anything and isn't true because: 1) If you look in my photo collage, you'd see that most of the white girls I flirted with were petite and feminine, not buffed or tall. 2) Taiwanese girls taller than me are not any more open than those shorter than me. Thus his explanation was false and was a cheap attempt at sarcastic humor.

On the other hand, Keepingitreal gave me an actual REASON by PM for the "cold wall", which you Momopi, keep failing to do. He told me:

"And to answer the questions regarding the social setting. Dude how come you still don't you get it? They have this "cold wall" or whatever you wanna call it, because it's a result of insecurity and lack of social skills. If you somehow get them to relax and talk to you, you'll find that they're in fact quite childish due to have no social skills and they'll be attached to their family."

You see Momopi, he gave me a REASON that explains my question. You didn't. For some reason, you can't admit the obvious: That Taiwanese girls simply aren't as open, relaxed or secure as women in other countries are. That's the obvious reason, but you are too politically correct to admit it for some reason. Don't you see that?

Furthermore, your "IN or OUT" dichotomy is too simplistic. I am "in" the circle of my relatives, but they don't do anything for me or introduce me to any friends or girls. You and I and Rock are all friends. But you don't help me or introduce me to any girls. In Taiwan, there's just too much going against me. That's why it sucks.

Plus, my personality and traits don't fit in at all. Thus my "vibe" will be felt as "disruptive" and people will avoid me. People can sense if you are different from them. You can me your nice self, and people will avoid you simply because, like dogs, they can smell and sense your vibes and know that you are on a different wavelength. As we discussed before, conformists and materialistic people are intimidated by nonconformists and people who don't care what others think. The difference of "vibe" itself causes a dislike and disdain in vain shallow narrow people.
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Postby Billy » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:41 pm

winston you explained it yourself being a freethinker has it´s price.

the lack of skills could be an explanation at least western style of social skills. as they can not speak proper english and have this confucianist triad they are boring and they know it. but what do i know....
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Postby momopi » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:15 pm

Winston wrote:Because you keep giving me the same answers but not addressing my questions. I'm not asking you to say "Vote with your feet" or "Leave if you don't like it". I'm asking you for REASONS WHY Taiwan isn't as friendly as other countries are.


The answer has already been given, you simply didn’t like the answer because it did not confirm to your views. What you’re doing is fishing for replies that support you own fear-based views for the sake of winning an argument. You keep asking for reasons because you’re looking for someone or something else to blame for your own lack of success, in addition to repeating the same arguments and rants on the forum to hopefully generate forum activity and online income. So, let’s see if I can rant for a page and contribute some pennies to your airfare fund.

Since I’m doing the ranting, I’ll puffer my cheeks like fugu (*) and talk about myself instead. Back in 1970s, after my grandfather lost the farm (apple orchid) in Nantou and the factory where my father worked in Changhua closed, we moved to Taipei to start over. It was a terrible time for me as I was unaccustomed to the city pollution. I was sick all the time and had to visit the doctor almost every week. Back then Taipei had open sewers everywhere; we had an open sewer that ran next to our condo. To get to school I had to cross a bridge over a large open sewer with raw untreated sewage. At the time TW was a major manufacturing hub and there were a lot of industrial pollution (which has since been exported to China).

As parents, it was quite frustrating to see their only child constantly ill. They did not indulge in mental anguish or bang their heads like this:

“…WHAT IS THE LOGICAL REASON FOR ALL THESE OPEN SEWAGE AND POLLUTION?!â€￾
“…WHY CAN’T ANYONE GIVE ME THE ANSWERS THAT WE ARE LOOKING FOR?!â€￾
"…WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE BE HONEST AND GIVE ME THE ANSWERS THAT I WANT INSTEAD OF BEING POLITICALLY CORRECT?!â€￾
“…WHY ARE YOU NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS THE WAY THAT I WANT YOU TO?!
“…WHY CAN'T YOU ADMIT THAT I AM RIGHT?! ARGH!!"

Nor did they stand around the street corner, holding up ad banners while ranting about why they’re unhappy and unsatisfied, hoping that someone would listen and click on a few ad banners – oops, that’s a bit before the world-wide web, getting ahead of myself here. Nope, they just took me to the doctors, and when traditional medicine and western medicine didn’t help, they took the lesson from the mother of Menicus and we packed our bags & moved to the cleaner coastal cities of Orange County, California. When I first arrived, my elementary school teacher commented that I looked like a malnourished Vietnamese boat refugee. Thank goodness my parents didn’t stay in Taipei to rant; otherwise I’d have been royally screwed.

Moving forward by almost 3 decades (man I’m old!), I found myself courting my ex-fiancé in Taipei in 2007-2008. She refused to move to the US and I refused to move to TW, so we parted ways. I had spent quite a bit of time and effort (6 trips to Asia) for her, but taking a cue from my parents, I did not indulge in mental anguish like this:

“…WHY ARE YOU AFRAID OF MOVING TO CALIFORNIA? WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF EXACTLY?â€￾
“…YOU TAIWANESE WOMEN ARE FEARFUL, INSECURE, AND LACK MATURITY!â€￾
“…EXPLAIN TO ME EXACTLY IN A LOGICAL WAY WITH ANSWERS THAT CONFIRM TO MY VIEWS WHY YOU DECIDE TO BREAK UP WITH ME! AND I MEAN LOGICAL WAY AS IN MY WAY! I’M LOGICAL AND YOU’RE IMMATURE LIKE REST OF TAIWANESE WOMEN! ARGH!â€￾

Nope, I simply said “Sorry things didn’t work out, please extend my thanks to your family for your hospitalityâ€￾. Mentally I was thinking “thanks for the good sexâ€￾ but that’s TMI. She had a variety of reason for not wanting to move to the US. She had spent years to build up her education, career, social network, etc. with master’s degree from TW’s best university (NTU) and youngest women to have been promoted to section chief. For her to leave everything for me was a lot to ask. Could it be she was afraid to leave everything behind? Sure. Could it be that she was insecure about moving to another country and starting over? Sure. Could it be that she already had back-up men lined up to take my place, or already started dating someone else? Sure! Do I need to press her into a corner to demand answers to a long-list of uncomfortable questions? No. Doing so would make me an even bigger loser. That’s part of knowing how to be a person, which we’ll get to later. By maintaining good relations with my ex, she helped to introduce a winery to me in France about a year after we parted ways, and when I told her that I was getting engaged, she sent me a lot of information about engagement photography and banquet places in TW. Unlike the US where it's lame for the guy to keep in contact with his ex's friends, I'm still on good terms with my ex and her friends. If you spent all that time to build a relationship with someone (and their social circle), it's quite a waste to burn the bridge just because you didn't marry the girl.

In addition to what I’ve already wrote to you in e-mail about oculesics in East Asia, you should have also learned from business school that the Japanese culture (and other East Asian cultures to varied extent) valued familiarity over uncertainty. By the book (from when we were in college), Japanese businesses tend to value their long-established relationship with existing suppliers, instead of looking for the lowest prices. This means, if you’re a new supplier trying to break into the business, you’ll find yourself facing a cold brick wall, unless if someone was willing to take you inside. You think people in TW lack social skills. Social skill is defined as the skills that facilitate interaction and build relations. In East Asia this means your skill or ability to meet people, work with in-group/out-group barriers (i.e. gaining entry), and maintaining positive relationship with people who are less inclined to give second chances. If you’ve been unsuccessful in TW, it’s because you’re the one who is lacking in social skills.

Man that’s a lot of stuff to type; I hope this will generate some pennies for you. Anyways, let’s examine a situation where a younger TW girl is introduced to an older TW girl. If the younger TW girl feels that it’s worth her while to “gain entryâ€￾ with the older TW girl, she may behave like a kōhai and call the older girl "elder sister" to facilitate familiarity. As an observer, if you thought the girl had little or no social skills and is childish or lacking maturity, you have completely failed to understand the interaction. For readers who are wondering why I’m mixing Japanese terms, TW was a Japanese colony for 50 years and we still use a lot of Japanese words as slangs (i.e. obaasan). Now, in a different situation where she feels that the person is not worth her while, then she’s less likely to waste her time, or in case of a goldfish uncle trying to hit on her (yeah, we know what you’re thinking), the brick wall goes up. But if the guy is age appropriate and pre-screened by people that she is familiar with, then perhaps she might give him consideration. Just as Taiwanese women want guys who will be dedicated to them instead of the type who thinks with his smaller head and hit on random pretty girls on the street, Taiwanese men do not want girls who’d be open and flirty with other men.

By now you should’ve already know that TW is not an easy dating place. You’ve been rating about it for years. For a small island country to import >400,000 brides, you only need to put 2 bananas together to figure it out. Those 400,000 Taiwanese men didn’t sit around to rant like you, they simply went “happier abroadâ€￾ and imported hot girls from Vietnam or elsewhere. Over 1 million Taiwanese men have also left TW and went happier abroad to China in pursuit of greener pastures, where they have access to a much larger pool of pretty girls. You, on the other hand, think too much, talk too much, and do little. You’re not looking for a happy medium; you’re a perfectionist chasing a moving target.


Winston wrote:Furthermore, your "IN or OUT" dichotomy is too simplistic. I am "in" the circle of my relatives, but they don't do anything for me or introduce me to any friends or girls. You and I and Rock are all friends. But you don't help me or introduce me to any girls. In Taiwan, there's just too much going against me. That's why it sucks.


I cannot speak for your relatives, but speaking for myself, I’m not inclined to give a kitten to someone who’d be prone to discard the cat later. As for you as a person, I see that the Philippines and its people welcomed you to their homes and you return their hospitality by calling them animals (see: Bobby Fischer thread). Your parents supported you for all these years with free room & board and you want to rant about their choice of residence. Well, yeah, as a kid you didn’t have a choice, but as an adult you have no excuses, not even invisible energy draining vampires that roam around Chayi and somehow prevent you from visiting the local travel agency to book a flight.

You’re not having a good time in TW. We get it. We got it months and months ago. Why else do you think we’ve been telling you to leave TW and go to China?



(*) A Fugu (consume with care):
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Last edited by momopi on Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:31 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Billy » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:41 pm

"WHY CAN'T YOU PEOPLE BE HONEST AND GIVE ME THE ANSWERS THAT I WANT INSTEAD OF BEING POLITICALLY CORRECT?! WHY ARE YOU NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS THE WAY THAT I WANT YOU TO?! WHY CAN'T YOU ADMIT THAT I AM RIGHT?! ARGH!!"

loooool


winston it takes only two bananas to figure it out. leave taiwan. you fool. leave :)
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Postby Winston » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:16 am

Momopi,
I didn't ask you to introduce me to a marriage partner. I only asked you to introduce me to a casual friend/dating partner. That's not a lot to ask. I do that for other people too. Why is that so complicated and difficult, like everything is in Taiwan? Why can't it just be simple and normal.

You are mistaken about one thing. Filipinos did not invite me into their home. A small percentage did. But not most. Most poor Filipinos do not have homes that they are proud of. They prefer that I take them out and spend money on them.

Yes you are right that Taiwan is not an easy dating place. So why are so many lying and saying that it is, for nearly everyone that is? Why do they lie so much? I hate that!

Momopi, you are complicating this. I just wanted to know one simple thing. How come in Lithuania or Russia, I can look at a girl and say "excuse me" and she will talk to me and let me flirt with her. But in Taiwan, that doesn't work, they will ignore me and treat me like a creep or intruder and return coldness and bad vibes. WHY THE BIG DIFFERENCE? It's just a simple question right?

Why is it hard for you to admit that "Taiwan girls aren't friendly or open to strangers outside their clique"?

Btw everyone, check this out. I sent this thread to my Uncle, and here was his reply. As you can see, even he admits that "girls do not talk to boys they don't know in Taiwan". So you see, I WAS RIGHT!!!

Winston,
It nice seeing you last October in Chiayi.
Let me try to say few words.
1. First there is a complete cultural difference between Taiwan and the US. In Taiwan people just don't greet
strangers, especially girls don't respond to boys unless they know each other. It has nothing to do friendly or not.
2. Like your parents, we grew up in a difficult time. When you say "enjoy life", it has different meanings to us.
Although we all could afford "better" life, but it's hard to change life style for most people. For some people, they like to have entertainment all the time, for others they just like to spend quiet time themselves. So "enjoy" has nothing specific, just respect others when you see things different.
3. Chiayi is a nice mid-size city. Your parents' home there has very nice retirement setting although it needs a car to get in and out. I went to school there for six years.
Try to look things from a positive prospective, then you will be happier.
Hope this helps.
uncle chen


So you see, I WAS RIGHT!!! Jacare and Repatriate f***ing LIED when they said that the cold wall around Taiwanese girls is only because I'm not attractive and well dressed. That was f***ing BULLSHIT! f**k THEM TO HELL! SUCH LIARS!!! I HATE LIARS!!!

The truth is, the cold wall is there in general and you can feel it even when their back is turned and don't even know that you are there. It's part of their INTRINSIC NATURE.
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Postby momopi » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:44 pm

Winston wrote:I didn't ask you to introduce me to a marriage partner. I only asked you to introduce me to a casual friend/dating partner.


I only facilitate omiai for marriage purposes.


Winston wrote:Momopi, you are complicating this. I just wanted to know one simple thing. How come in Lithuania or Russia, I can look at a girl and say "excuse me" and she will talk to me and let me flirt with her. But in Taiwan, that doesn't work, they will ignore me and treat me like a creep or intruder and return coldness and bad vibes. WHY THE BIG DIFFERENCE? It's just a simple question right?


First you say my reply was too simplistic, now you say my expanded reply is complicating? The question has already been answered previously; you simply did not like the answer and opted to repeat your question over and over again to fish for replies that confirms to your views. Example:

Winston wrote:Btw everyone, check this out. I sent this thread to my Uncle, and here was his reply. As you can see, even he admits that "girls do not talk to boys they don't know in Taiwan". So you see, I WAS RIGHT!!!


Whoopee. Did your uncle's reply made you feel better for a few minuets, before realizing that you’re still stuck in TW and unhappy? Here, let me repeat myself:

1. Taiwanese girls who are flirty with strangers are not considered good marriage material.
2. Taiwanese girls do not want husbands (or potential husbands) who thinks with their smaller head and hit on random pretty girls on the street.
3. Taiwanese men do not want wives (or GF’s) who flirt with other men. Note that adultery in TW is a criminal offense punishable by jail term.

If you're looking for answers that confirm to your own views, feel free to write your own replies and stop wasting other people's time.


Winston wrote:Why is it hard for you to admit that "Taiwan girls aren't friendly or open to strangers outside their clique"?


When I wrote about in-group/out-group boundaries and stone walls on Dec 18th, you said that was "too simplistic". Then I wrote a more detailed description of in-group/out-group dynamics yesterday, and you want to say that I can't admit to the existence of in-group/out-group stone walls?

To be clear on what context we're using the word "walls" for:

Winston wrote:So you see, I WAS RIGHT!!! Jacare and Repatriate f***ing LIED when they said that the cold wall around Taiwanese girls is only because I'm not attractive and well dressed. That was f***ing BULLSHIT! f**k THEM TO HELL! SUCH LIARS!!! I HATE LIARS!!!
The truth is, the cold wall is there in general and you can feel it even when their back is turned and don't even know that you are there. It's part of their INTRINSIC NATURE.


If you did not understand what context I used "stone walls" or "brick walls" for, please refer to your own word usage above.

Let me introduce you to a Cantonese slang "gum yu lo" (goldfish man/uncle). At Asian night markets you might see a middle-aged Asian dude running goldfish scooping games for kids. When little girls in skirts crotch down he gets a view of her camel toe. When a middle-aged dude walks up to a young girl and try to hit on her, he is a "gum yu lo". Look, she knows why you're trying to chat her up. If she was at her college cafeteria and some jock from the school baseball team came over to chat her up, he may find her "stone wall" lowered to 3 feet tall, versus a gum yu lo trying to do the same on the street will find an elevated 60 foot tall castle wall with ice cold moat, sharp spikes, and burning cauldrons of oil.

Image

===========================

OK, let me rant some more to makes some pennies for you. Again, since I'm doing the ranting, I'll be the fugu and blab about myself. Different people have different experiences. In my personal experience, when I was actively dating in CA, I’d meet & date 3-4 girls in a year. When I visited TW, I went out with that many girls in a month. To me, TW was "easier", but the devil is in the details.

I attended CSU in my 20's and was part of a Taiwanese student social group. As the older sempai, I looked after my kōhai's welfare. When SQ006 crashed in Taoyuan international, one of the girl’s father was on board. For a while there was no information about the causalities. She knew that I was a frequent flier on SG airlines and reached out to me. Earlier on one of trips to SG, I was seated next to a "mystery flier" who was also management. When I asked the attendant for water, she told me get it myself. The gentlemen seated next to me was visibly upset and apologized on behalf of SG airlines. We chatted and exchanged business cards. I had his card in my old Franklin organizer, so I reached out to him. In retrospect that was probably not useful (inappropriate?) as he didn't have any more info than we did. Before he returned my voice mail, the father had appeared in a wheelchair on TV at the hospital, because he wanted to let his friends and family know that he was alive. Yup, he wanted to be on TV first before calling his family on the phone. X_X

Regardless, my response to her need, and the less dramatic needs of others such as picking them up at LAX are remembered. So when I arrived in TW, my friends from college introduced me to their friends and prospective single girls. That, in addition to the girls I had meet months earlier and have been chatting over the internet, resulted in me going out with several different girls during a 4 week stay in TW. Since I do not reside in TW, chatting over the internet was a necessity. It's simple, if you don't hit it off she'd simply drop off, and whoever that stays probably likes you enough to consider you a marriage potential. This is not "casual dating" and if she doesn't feel that I'm marriage material or that she'd ever want to sleep with me, she's not likely to waste her time. If you go to Eastern Europe where girls may be more open and friendly, it'd still eventually come down to if the girls are willing to sleep with you. If the girl is friendly and leads you by your nose and wallet, then gives you no honey, you'd still end up with blue balls. From my perspective, TW girls mature sexually later than westerners, typically losing their virginity in college vs. Jr. High or HS in the West. So between a girl who had double-digit sexual partners since Jr. High, and a late bloomer who only slept with 1 or 2 BF's in college, I'd happily take the latter who'd make a better wife with lower divorce risk.

So, for me it was easier to go out with more girls in TW in a shorter period vs CA, but I wouldn't call it easy. It's very possible that a younger and more attractive ABC can go to TW without many connections and become popular in a short time, making me look like some lame beta-male. Or, it's also possible that someone else can go to TW and strike out completely, making my social life there look like a rock star. Is it possible to meet girls via cold approaches in TW? Yes, I suck at cold approaches but was still able to meet girls at Starbucks in Taipei. Chatted with one over several months and she came to visit in the US. But if your expectations is to flirt with her and get NSA sex, you better have a hell lot more game than I do.

===================================

Now let's take another look at familiarity vs. uncertainty. People are multi-faceted and culture is always changing with the times (i.e. internet), so we're only looking at one aspect here & try not to over-generalize.

My family has been using the same insurance agent since 1982. His rates are not the cheapest but we value our existing relationship with him. Whenever we get into a car accident he goes the extra mile to assist us, and if I needed to get ahold of him I can call him at home (I have his personal cell and home #). When I want tofu, I go to Meiji Tofu, where I've been buying from the father for years and now I buy from the son. They sell traditional hand-made tofu made fresh every morning and the store is closed by 1pm. Then I'd swing by Sakuraya, where I've been buying mochi for many years from the family. Again, their prices are not the cheapest, nor are they the closest, but I value the familiarity with the owners and quality of their goods. When I visit a different confectionery, I might find their products "confusing".

Because I don't shop for the best prices in above examples, it's not a zero-sum game of my win (in savings) vs. the merchant's loss (in profits). In other words, I'm not playing chess. So if you approach the situation with chess game mentality, you’d be lost and confused. If you're standing on a Go board and everyone around you are carrying bowls of Go pieces, instead of learning how to play the game,you want to argue why it’s a Go board and not a Chess board? You want to prove that you're right and everyone else is playing the wrong game? That's about as absurd as arguing that cats should bark and dogs should meow. If you're thinking "but, but, cats always meow and Taiwanese people in US don't act like back home blah blah", that proves my point that you're just looking to argue your case. Look, if you want to play chess, go find a chess board elsewhere. Stop asking repetitive questions, stop over-thinking, stop making excuses, and start packing. Capisci?


Image

...do not bring chess pieces to a Go house and claim that the game is rigged against you.
Last edited by momopi on Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Winston » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:25 am

Momopi,
You are overblowing it again. You did not answer my question directly. The in/out explanation doesn't explain why Taiwanese are cold and unfriendly, but not people in other countries. I asked you why the difference? How come in Taiwan, I get this STRONG FEELING that I'm not allowed to talk to female strangers, but I do NOT get that feeling in other countries? The feeling is very strong, so I don't think I'm imagining it. WHY do I get that feeling? It feels like I'm committing a crime by trying to talk to girls, like it's illegal.

Why do you have trouble admitting that Taiwanese girls have no social skills or confidence and are very insecure. Keepingitreal stated that too. Remember? How come you don't have the guts to admit to that?

Here is what he said:

"And to answer the questions regarding the social setting. Dude how come you still don't you get it? They have this "cold wall" or whatever you wanna call it, because it's a result of insecurity and lack of social skills. If you somehow get them to relax and talk to you, you'll find that they're in fact quite childish due to have no social skills and they'll be attached to their family."


It's true. It takes some confidence to talk to strangers. Taiwanese are anything but confident.

I didn't ask you to introduce someone for marriage. I just asked why you can't introduce anyone as a "hang out friend" if Taiwan is so open and friendly like everyone falsely claims.

I don't care if TW girls who are flirty are good marriage material or not. That's not the point. The point is that it should NOT be so damn hard to start a conversation with a stranger. How come it's not hard to do so in Europe? Explain that.

How come if I go to a restaurant alone in Taiwan, no one will talk to me. But you can go to a restaurant in Europe and start conversations easily. But why can't you do that in Taiwan? People here have even said that in Germany, it is easy to go to a restaurant or pub or bar alone and start conversations with strangers easily. Why not in Taiwan?

So basically, in Taiwan, if no one introduces you to people, you are basically screwed. No one will talk to you except for elderly people. And you are guaranteed to be lonely. WTF? That's f***ed up. So I basically have no options unless someone introduces me to people?! What could be more f***ed up than that?!

Otherwise, I have to get a job and HOPE that my coworkers will introduce me to someone, or that the girl sitting next to me at the office is single, available and my type. WTF? What kind of odds are those?!

How come out in public, no one talks to me except elderly people? WTF? How come I get the strong feeling that I'm not allowed to talk to girls in Taiwan? I don't have that feeling in other countries, so why do I have it in Taiwan?

Most of the time, I freeze up when I try to talk to a Taiwanese girl, because talking to them feels ILLEGAL, committing a crime or something. WTF? When we were at the night market, you were also scared to talk to any girls and you froze up as well. Probably, you felt that it was "illegal" to talk to them too, but you won't admit it.

Btw, look at my uncle's letter again. Notice that he implies that Taiwanese are LESS open than Americans are, because they don't smile or chat with strangers. WTF? Isn't that in direct contradiction to Rock's claim that Taiwanese are more open and friendly than Americans are? Who is right? This uncle is a very smart guy. He is a wealthy retired Lockheed engineer in Silicon Valley, and if you give him a calculus problem out of a textbook, he can figure out what's going on after a few moments and show you how to do it. That's why I used to bring my calculus homework to him. So he is a very accurate and credible person.

Winston,
It nice seeing you last October in Chiayi.
Let me try to say few words.
1. First there is a complete cultural difference between Taiwan and the US. In Taiwan people just don't greet
strangers, especially girls don't respond to boys unless they know each other. It has nothing to do friendly or not.
2. Like your parents, we grew up in a difficult time. When you say "enjoy life", it has different meanings to us.
Although we all could afford "better" life, but it's hard to change life style for most people. For some people, they like to have entertainment all the time, for others they just like to spend quiet time themselves. So "enjoy" has nothing specific, just respect others when you see things different.
3. Chiayi is a nice mid-size city. Your parents' home there has very nice retirement setting although it needs a car to get in and out. I went to school there for six years.
Try to look things from a positive prospective, then you will be happier.
Hope this helps.
uncle chen


Btw, I do notice that Taiwanese are friendlier when they are outside of Taiwan. Why is that? I also notice that once they become Americanized, Taiwanese are friendlier too. Isn't that in direct contradiction to what Rock claims? WTF?

So basically Momopi, you have no solution to Taiwan's coldness and unfriendliness. Your only solution is for me to leave, or to join some clique, gain their trust, and hope they introduce me to someone. That's so limiting.

Either way, Taiwan sucks.
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Postby Winston » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:35 am

Momopi,
Check out what someone emailed me. He may be from the forum. I don't know. But his observations about Taiwanese people are spot on. So you see, the problem isn't me. I'm not the one that's cold and never talks to strangers. I can start conversations with strangers easily and naturally. But in Taiwan, only elderly people can do that.

What he says is accurate, and is something you don't have the guts to say because you are politically correct and have a bias toward defending Taiwan. But the truth is the truth. Taiwanese are f***ed up.

See below:

"Hi Winston.
I read your forum posts on why you wanted answers to why Taiwanese in
general are cold and unfriendly. As someone who has written to you before
and is locked up here, Taiwanese (and other yellow people) are much less
sociable compared to other races. J. Philippe Rushton had a research paper
called 'Race, Evolution, Behavior' where he details the racial differences
between whites, yellows, and blacks. I can provide you the .pdf file, but
not now as I'm writing this email from a public computer.

Secondly, Taiwan is a business-minded society, rather than a society that
emphasizes personal happiness. Even in the workplace, the administration
will say that you come there to make money, not friends, because chatting
up with coworkers is seen as being useless. I agree 100% with your forum
posts and criticisms of Taiwan that Taiwan is cold and unfriendly, etc.

You live with your parents, but even if you live in a rented apartment, it
feels impossible to try to chat up with people you live side by side with.
I've been renting apartments for the past 3 years here, and even if you
live in the same floor with others, if you attempt to talk to them, they
will just ignore you or be unhappy or disturbed that you talked to them. I
once had to live side by side with a woman who was very mean even if I
requested nicely for her to do something.

Did you ever think about running away from your parents when you were in
your teen years? I did, but I had always wanted to rely on my parents to
let me live somewhere where I felt included, but they were never
interested in doing so. My mom said that they wouldn't be able to support
themselves financially outside of Taiwan, and she openly said that
meaningful life experiences were unnecessary.

How long will you be in Taiwan? If you have any questions or comments, you
can write back to me and I'll do my best to reply. I don't know when I
will be released from this hellhole either."

After he sent me the PDF he mentioned, he then wrote:

"Look under sociability, among the first few pages. Rushton was not really
liked among politically correct academics.

I would describe Taiwan as being a slave mentality society, where 99% of
Taiwanese feel that people were born to do only 3 things: to work, to
obey, and to follow/conform. You had written that Taiwanese and yellows in
general live to be enslaved, and living here certainly feels like slavery.
I think it's where the cold and repressed vibe of Taiwanese society comes
from-- that the self is sacrificed for the group. If you read newspapers
here in Taiwan, there's regularly news stories about children and teens
being physically abused or punished just because they stepped out of line
too much--whether it's just being a kid, or dyeing the hair, or getting a
tattoo, etc."
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Postby Winston » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:14 am

Btw all,
I don't know if I told you this already, but here is an interesting revelation. At a supermarket in Chiayi, there's this older woman that works there that I talk to. One day I asked her: "How come no one talks to strangers here except middle aged and elderly people? How come girls here have a cold wall and ice shield around them? And how come no websites talk about this except mine?" Her reply was: "We are taught by our parents not to talk to strangers. When I was a young girl, I didn't talk to strangers either."

So you see, she admitted that Taiwanese are taught not to talk to strangers. How does that make them any better than in America, esp since they consider Americans to be more open than they are?! What's the point of going to Taiwan, if you can't befriend local people and only other foreigners?

Someone told me that all his foreigner friends in Taiwan only befriend other foreigners, and maybe westernized Taiwanese (but those are rare because they tend to leave Taiwan). So what's the point of going to a country if the locals aren't going to befriend you?

This proves yet again that Repatriate and Jacare were bullshitting and lying when they said that the cold wall was all about my looks. They are such scumbags. This is about THEM, not me. In other countries, it is easier to start conversations with strangers. There is no cold wall. And it doesn't feel illegal and criminal to talk to girls.

The lady at the supermarket didn't say that Taiwanese girls are cold because I'm not attractive. She said that they are taught not to talk to strangers. So we have some bullshitters even on this forum.

Btw check this out. Even Falcon on this forum admits that Taiwan is unfriendly and boring and not a place for fun. He PMed me this:

"Yeah, Taiwanese people can get really annoying oftentimes. So you need to get out of Chiayi.

Come visit me in Guatemala. I´m having a blast over here right now. Mguy is having a blast in Colombia. Theres a reason we`re not in Taiwan."
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!

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Postby momopi » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:17 pm

Winston wrote:You are overblowing it again. You did not answer my question directly. The in/out explanation doesn't explain why Taiwanese are cold and unfriendly, but not people in other countries.


See:
Winston wrote:Why do you have trouble admitting that Taiwanese girls have no social skills or confidence and are very insecure. Keepingitreal stated that too. Remember? How come you don't have the guts to admit to that?



Since you've already per-determined a cause for your lack of success in TW, all you have to do is write the reply to your own question. Then you don't have to complain when my replies doesn't confirm to your exact specifications. So, if your opinion is that Taiwanese girls have no social skills, then they must have social life without social skills?

Image

See:
momopi wrote:You think people in TW lack social skills. Social skill is defined as the skills that facilitate interaction and build relations. In East Asia this means your skill or ability to meet people, work with in-group/out-group barriers (i.e. gaining entry), and maintaining positive relationship with people who are less inclined to give second chances.


A TW girl who has no social skills, confidence, or is very insecure would have difficult time in building familiarity with a senior of superior social standing -- or even with those of her own social standing. Even more difficult, after becoming familiar with someone and always remembering one's relative social standing. Does this reply look "overly complex" to you? If you want to say "but in Russia and...", obviously you're in East Asia and Eastern Europe, Taiwan compares to Japan and contrasts to Russia. The study of cultural anthropology looks at the cultural variation among people from a professional, academic perspective, and not"I'm not getting laid so this culture must suck!". You're asking repetitive questions and expect a specific answer, because you want to blame others for your lack of success. You complain that TW girls you've just meet don't let you kiss their hands, when that's obviously not an East Asian cultural norm (in the same way that you do not kiss the bride in a Hindu wedding). You like "innocent looking" girls, but when TW girls like guys who are "innocent looking" you want to go on a multi-page rant because you're too old to be a Sunshine boy. When you see Taiwanese guys and girls having fun and posting for photos, you want to rant about their "gay a*s pose" with the V sign because you don't fit in.

Look, you want others to agree with you so that you can say your lack of success in TW is not your fault. Do you think that getting a few "yes man" will make you feel better about yourself? In the end you're still home alone. You've been at this for how many years now? Do you want to be in TW 4 years from now and still be alone and miserable, writing another multi-page rant on the forum, or would you rather get off your butt for greener pastures?


Winston wrote:Btw, I do notice that Taiwanese are friendlier when they are outside of Taiwan. Why is that? I also notice that once they become Americanized, Taiwanese are friendlier too. Isn't that in direct contradiction to what Rock claims? WTF?


Here's a group of Taiwanese Americans. If they were open and friendly to you, and you had no trouble fitting in or getting dates, then you wouldn't need to leave the US to get a date, would you?

Image

...and if you're thinking "I didn't say anything about getting dates! I'm talking about being open and friendly!" Uh, yeah, let's be honest here about what guys really want (and you want girls to be single, available, and be your type). If they were friendly but all of them reject you for dates, I'm pretty sure that you'd be typing multi-page rants about how much it sucks for you. Worse, you might write that it'd have been better if the girls went out with you just to use you, because that would at least make you feel needed for something.


===================

Winston wrote:I didn't ask you to introduce someone for marriage.
<snip>
I don't care if TW girls who are flirty are good marriage material or not.


Did you miss the part where I said "I only facilitate omiai for marriage purposes." ?

If someone in TW were to ask me to hook him up with girls who are flirty with hot legs, and he didn't care if they were marriage material, I'd direct him to take a short flight to Lisboa racetrack in Macao. It ain't the horse that are running around in high heels.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Buq74tLo3Y[/youtube]


Winston wrote:So basically, in Taiwan, if no one introduces you to people, you are basically screwed. No one will talk to you except for elderly people. And you are guaranteed to be lonely. WTF? That's f***ed up. So I basically have no options unless someone introduces me to people?! What could be more f***ed up than that?!
Otherwise, I have to get a job and HOPE that my coworkers will introduce me to someone, or that the girl sitting next to me at the office is single, available and my type. WTF? What kind of odds are those?!


Winston wrote:So basically Momopi, you have no solution to Taiwan's coldness and unfriendliness. Your only solution is for me to leave, or to join some clique, gain their trust, and hope they introduce me to someone. That's so limiting.
Either way, Taiwan sucks.


When I referred you to a speed dating event in TPE specifically for Taiwanese with oversea experience, where you could've meet 50-60 single girls in person and talk to them (and they're there specifically to meet guys and talk to YOU), why did you choose to stay home?

P.S. If you come back with "...can you GUARANTEE that you'd get a date...", don't bother.
Last edited by momopi on Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:52 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Falcon » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:16 am

Winston wrote:Btw check this out. Even Falcon on this forum admits that Taiwan is unfriendly and boring and not a place for fun. He PMed me this:

"Yeah, Taiwanese people can get really annoying oftentimes. So you need to get out of Chiayi.

Come visit me in Guatemala. I´m having a blast over here right now. Mguy is having a blast in Colombia. Theres a reason we`re not in Taiwan."


Actually, even Momopi admits it too, in http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/view ... 7&start=75

momopi wrote:As we've already discussed many times in the past, TW is not an "easy" dating place, otherwise Taiwanese men wouldn't have had to import several hundred thousand foriegn brides. If you had some false expectations, you should have gotten rid of them years ago.

For the record, I spent years courting several girls in TW, slept with most of them and did not find one virgin (they were all sexually active since college, conservative my arse), was engaged to one in 2007-2008, and failed to marry any of them. In 2007-2008 alone I flew to Asia 6 times to court my ex-fiance and she demanded that I must move back to TPE for our relationship to work, because she ain't moving to California. I declined and that was it. I moved on and she moved on.

If TW isn't working out for you, you should move on too. Standing under the grapevine to write about how sour the grapes are, isn't going to get you where you want to go.


Keep in mind that this all really depends on the person. Taiwanese dating works for some people, and not for others. This applies in all countries, even here in Guatemala.

For example, I find many Guatemalan indigenous ladies to be really friendly, easy to chat up, interested in me, and quite dateable. But Mguy does not. Here's what he told me via PM.

mguy wrote:I did not get love from the Indians who wear the traditional garb. Actually, I was not attracted to them. Seriously.. could not have done it. And they stick to their own.


This is because with the Guatemalan indigenous women, you'll need to have a knack for learning funny-sounding Amerindian languages, and especially, have a certain kind of charisma. In this case, I'm "in." Many others would be "out." Momopi is right (see his posts above).

momopi wrote:If you're on the "in" with in-group/out-group boundaries, people will treat you well with hospitality, reciprocal, familial terms & good faith.


So instead of complaining non-stop about rural Guatemala, Mguy moves to urban Colombia. Great example for Winston.

I will post more about this later.
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Postby momopi » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:40 am

Falcon wrote:Actually, even Momopi admits it too, in http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/view ... 7&start=75
momopi wrote:As we've already discussed many times in the past, TW is not an "easy" dating place, otherwise Taiwanese men wouldn't have had to import several hundred thousand foriegn brides. If you had some false expectations, you should have gotten rid of them years ago.
For the record, I spent years courting several girls in TW, slept with most of them and did not find one virgin (they were all sexually active since college, conservative my arse), was engaged to one in 2007-2008, and failed to marry any of them. In 2007-2008 alone I flew to Asia 6 times to court my ex-fiance and she demanded that I must move back to TPE for our relationship to work, because she ain't moving to California. I declined and that was it. I moved on and she moved on.
If TW isn't working out for you, you should move on too. Standing under the grapevine to write about how sour the grapes are, isn't going to get you where you want to go.


Keep in mind that this all really depends on the person. Taiwanese dating works for some people, and not for others. This applies in all countries, even here in Guatemala.


"Admit" means "Confess to be true or to be the case with reluctance". I've been trying to smack the above into Winston's forehead with giant blinking neon signs for how long now? How many times have I told Winston to go to China?

How many times have I wrote about in-group/out-group boundary and dynamics? And Winston's reply was "Why is it hard for you to admit that Taiwan girls aren't friendly or open to strangers outside their clique?". Man, I even used the "stone walls" and "brick walls" and he still thinks that I have trouble to admit that the wall exists?

No, that's not it, what he wants to hear is for us to say "yes sir! you're right! The only possible reason why Taiwanese girls rejected you is because they have big tall cold walls for everyone, and that they're immature and have no social skills whatsoever! It couldn't possibly be your fault! If they were normal they should all be attracted to you! On and if there were any nice scenic areas in TW, they should be relocated to your front door for your viewing pleasure! Yes sir!"

======================================

Back in 2010, I told Winston that he should leave TW and go abroad before his parents are too old and that he'd have to stay in TW to look after them:

http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/view ... c&start=30

Winston wrote:
momopi wrote:Go to more countries and write more journals. Do this before your parents are too old and you have to stay in TW to look after them.

I have nowhere to go. And I am enjoying sitting in front of the computer and doing different things and watching YouTube and doing whatever I want. It's relaxing. And I get intellectual stimulation from what I do, a lot more than "going through the motions" of pretentiousness with fake people, which provides no stimulation to me.



Moving forward to 2012:

http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/view ... hp?t=17073

Winston wrote:Their sterile lifestyle rubs off on me too. Being around my parents makes me miserable as well. I can't do anything except eat and watch TV and work on my computer. WTF can I do? Where can I go? f**k! Every girl I've met here is either really fricking boring and prudish, or flakes out on me! Being with my parents feels like a prison where I can't do anything!

What if I have to live here someday to take care of them?! I'd go fricking crazy and become suicidal! All because of their HORRIBLE CHOICES IN ALWAYS PICKING THE MOST MISERABLE PLACES TO LIVE! f**k!!! WHY AM I SO UNLUCKY?! f**k!!! WHY DOES FATE ALWAYS PICK THE MOST INCOMPATIBLE PLACES AND PEOPLE FOR ME?! I AM 1000 PERCENT INCOMPATIBLE HERE IN EVERY WAY! f**k!!! Does God like mixing matter and anti-matter? WTF MAN?! WHY WHY WHY?!



So, why did I tell Winston to leave TW and go abroad in Oct 2010? See:

http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/view ... ght=taiwan
Taiwan is Boring, Miserable, Repressed, Loveless, etc.
Aug 8, 2010

http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/view ... ght=taiwan
Winston vs Taiwanese/E Asians: Differences and Similarities
May 15, 2010

http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/view ... ght=taiwan
Taboo Observations About Taiwan That No One Would Dare Say
May 26, 2009

http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/view ... ght=taiwan
Winston's incompatibilities with his own Taiwanese people
June 26, 2008

http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/view ... ght=taiwan
Critical Observations of East Asian Culture/Mentality
Jan 4, 2008


Winston opted not to accept my suggestion and stayed in TW. The result?

Winston wrote:I'm going crazy! I couldn't even sleep last night because I'm so fricking PISSED OFF!!!
Last edited by momopi on Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Falcon » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:03 am

momopi wrote:No, that's not it, what he wants to hear is for us to say "yes sir! you're right! The only possible reason why Taiwanese girls rejected you is because they have big tall cold walls for everyone, and that they're immature and have no social skills whatsoever! It couldn't possibly be your fault! If they were normal they should all be attracted to you! On and if there were any nice scenic areas in TW, they should be relocated to your front door for your viewing pleasure! Yes sir!"


Similarly, I don't fit in with Gen 2.0 Asian Americans. Is it my fault or their fault? I could care less. No one is to blame. They're happy among themselves, and I'm happy among other people, outside their circles. To each his own.

However, some people like Mguy fit in very well with the Gen 2.0 Asian-American cliques. We could have gotten into huge arguments about all of this. But instead, Mguy and I have both packed our bags and moved off to Colombia and Guatemala, respectively. We all have a limited amount of time, and that could either be mostly talk or mostly action.

So to set a good example for you HA guys, I'm going to log off, get out of the Internet cafe, and have some more fun in the vibrant ("renao") markets of Guatemala. They are shockingly similar to Taiwanese night markets. ^___^
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