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I partly left China because a man with opinions is living on borrowed time in China.
There's very much a culture of blame foreigners in China. Japanese, black guys in Guangzhou, white guys in Beijing, they've all been blamed for stuff one time or another. Meanwhile the locals put shit in food, rip each other off, and keep the poor from gaining any power or influence.
What I found especially insidious were white guys threatening to use their influence with members of the communist party.
Anyway, I am much happier in Bangkok. Sure, there are dangers here, but they're more physical (knives, drunks) than psychological.
This is also a good place for me to understand more about what I saw in China.
And - dare I say it - this place is 100x more FUN than China.
China is a place to visit, never live there long term or permanently. Period. It takes a special kind of patient person to manage living there a very long time. You definitely cannot successfully live there for too long without a Chinese spouse either. It will just catch up on you and force your hand.
Eh... You might be able to buy that in China. Almost everyone in China buys bottled water and it is not very expensive. I would not waste bag space for that unless you do not mind extra costs traveling with extra cases. You can also buy all your clothes in China, and not bring clothes from the US, that will save you lots of bag room. Clothes in China are butt f***ing cheap.
Yeah, as you can see, one bad weekend and you'll bale out of China unless you have the support of a good woman.
Over the course of a weekend I found out my favourite lady was already engaged, I got a cold, I got an upset stomach, there was random noise from my neighbours and I had some assholes telling me what I could and couldn't post online (not HA members I might add). Well that was too much and it was the final straw really.
I did also want to visit Thailand at some point though, so I made a snap decision to come here. I think really that anyone who wants an Asian wife MUST visit and see for himself the big three (China, Thailand, Philippines).
Thailand is much better than China to be honest. Sure there aren't so many hot pale skinned ladies here. But on the plus side my perma-loose stools have gone so the food must be much better here! Plus I noticed that when I walked around in Guangzhou my clothes would absolutely stink after just a couple of hours. But they're not nearly so bad here. God only knows what was in the air in Guangzhou.
Apartments here are also very cheap by the looks of it, plus there are ways of getting very cheap long term visas.
And the food here is the best anywhere in the world in my opinion. Middle Eastern, Thai and East Asian food is especially good here.
On the water thing, I used to buy the 4.5L bottles of spring water from the supermarket - they were about 8 RMB. If you're staying long term you can just buy a water cooler for your apartment - the water is very cheap.
Personally I used to rehydrate with the 600ml bottles of local beer - only 3.5 RMB and nearly as cheap as water!
So that is what happened to you? LOL!! I told you guys Chinese women decide quickly!
Good luck in Thailand, I bet it's easier there I guess.
I'm flying out to China tomorrow, for my wedding. Even when I come back, I highly doubt I will be posting anymore on the HA forums. I might come peek in if I ever get bored or something, but do not hold your breath. So if any of you guys have questions for me about China or Chinese women or culture, etc. please send me a Private Message (PM). Especially if you have a more private concern that you don't want the others to see.
I will not be around to debunk the constant barrages of people who post false and bad information about China and Chinese women here on HA regularly, so if you have a concern or a question about the validity of something someone here is posting here about Chinese women or China, send me a PM and I can either confirm that or post a reply for everyone in that thread. When in doubt check my guide. If you do not see the answer there, send me a PM. I will be too busy being happy with my wife and awesome new job.
Remember as a person with around 10 years of experience studying Chinese language, culture, close Chinese friends, doing business in China for large multinational corporations, dating the women, and now getting married to one, I know a lot more about China and Chinese women than probably anyone on here at HA. Only Everdred is next closest because he has lived there for a long time and knows how China is really like, which I give huge props to because that is HARD to do. See how quickly Xiongmao flamed out? If you fail to understand how China works, you will never last long in there, especially if you do not formulate a solid plan/strategy to accomplish the goals you set forth.
Oh yeah, word of advice to you mongers, if I were you I would stick to the Philippines, Thailand, Korea, or Vietnam if you want to do stuff like that without much problem. Sure lots of guys go live there and monger for a long time and get back home okay, but some do not get back unscathed. f**k the super cheap professionals (xiaojie) instead if a taste is all you want. Tricking a young girl to pop her cherry could get you in trouble. The US embassy might come visit you in jail if they let them....you have been warned for the last time. Chinese people are serious about f***ing everything and there are two sets of rules in China (Chinese & Foreigner (laowai)). Even their sense of humor should be a clue that it is all business there. If you are a wanderer-minded person with little to no direction in life, do not necessarily expect to find a good wife easily. The young prettier ones (8-10 and 18-24) these days, prefer very smart, serious, strong, loyal, monogamous, capable, and manly men, not thugs which is a huge difference. Any Chinese girl that is fanatic about girly looking K-Pop and J-Pop male singers etc. 9 times out of 10 do not want a foreigner either so it all fits and makes perfect sense. Chinese women do not want their time wasted, so do not waste your time either.
Good luck fellas!
/I want to thank Winston for this website. A little over two years ago, this website helped me to unplug from the matrix. Boycott American Women's thread was the first thread I found off Google and I lurked a little bit and was greatly inspired to start my own plan to find happiness and these last few months or so you guys have known me was a result of a strong feeling that I need to help out on the next level with actual plans, information, and strategy if found scattered everywhere, instead of a non-stop rant like BAW did. Not saying what he did had no value, it's just time for others to step up and help Winston and the others that got shit started, to take things to the next level. Years later China will be different again. It's the most rapidly changing country of it's size in the world. Someone else needs to step up and make the next dating guide or travel guide when the game changes.
Congrats on your wedding, Kai! I hope you change your mind and keep posting on HappierAbroad; I urge you to stay in the forum and update us on your life. You've been a real help to me in preparing for my trip to China in the fall. Thanks for all your tips and advice.
Yeah, I flamed out of China but...
Since moving to Thailand my skin is better, my bowels are better, and even my clothes smell better after spending all afternoon walking around in incredibly hot weather. We even saw deep blue sky here today.
China's dash for economic progress has come at a huge cost.
I know how China works - on corruption and who you know. Nothing more or less. Well maybe money as well.
What goes on in Thailand stays in Thailand, but today I had a first hand demonstration of how Chinese people are so money obsessed. Of course I'm talking about them charging for going to the loo in ChinaTown whereas all other shopping malls are free to pee!
Personally I'm getting to like Thai women. A cute girl smiled at me at the station this evening. People work hard here, but it feels relaxed. I feel pretty alpha here, my competition is just skint Aussie backpackers, retired guys in their 70's and freaks. Today I saw a guy walking along with shit dribbling out of his pants. I must say that for every 4 Western men I see with low quality girls, one has an absolutely stunning girl on his arm. Men with confidence can do very, very well here.
Anyway, keep posting about China, because more guys need to know what it's really like there.
Kai, as someone who is ethnic Chinese I think your guide is impressive and you have a pretty good grasp of mainland culture. Just for shits and giggles you should visit Taiwan sometime and compare/contrast what non-communist cultural revolution indoctrinated Chinese people are like. Taiwan is much closer to traditional Chinese culture..very reserved and polite. Mainland China has become a weird frankenstein monster where people are still trying to find their identity after being given some freedom and money now.
I've been to the mainland a few times and visited yangshuo, beijing, shanghai, harbin (ice festival), and xian. I could not stand the rudeness a lot of times though and i'm fluent in mandarin. I also got ripped off once in Harbin because the taxi driver was using a rigged meter. Plus I argued with the Holiday Inn security staff because they wouldn't let me sit in an empty coffee shop without ordering something. It almost escalated into something big until I complained to the front desk and they gave me a fruit basket. I guess I could get away with all that because I was still ethnic Chinese but those minor annoyances build up over time.
I love Chinese women too and you're right that a good Chinese woman is hard to beat. However, there's a lot of negative baggage with the culture. Plus I find Chinese women to mostly be nags when they get older and they will always be status conscious. This is especially the case if you live in a city with a lot of asians or Chinese she may constantly compare your family's wealth to theirs etc.. It'll be pretty hard for her to compete with most established asians in america economically speaking. However, if you found one that won't do that then you won the personality lottery so to speak.
Big props to you for doing this as a black man in China too. Just being there on vacation annoyed the piss out of me so I can't imagine how it is for a lot of foreigners who have to learn the language from scratch and deal with mainland Chinese mannerisms.
Ha ha, well put. Sometimes mainland Chinese remind me of the way certain ghetto blacks back home behave - very reptilian in your face me only perspective!
Nothing is likely to happen to you in that context even if you were the whitest pinky on the planet! Of course if you really lost it and started getting pyhsical, security and police would be called and you would have to deal with the law. But you ain't gonna get surrounded for complaining ugly American style inside a Holiday Inn no matter what your race.
Taiwan? Nah, that is not really on my short list of places to visit anytime soon. I'm sure the wife want's to go and it's on her top 5 places to visit so perhaps sometime soon sure we might go. I have quite a few Taiwanese friends already (mostly Christian ones though) here that I have befriended in the last 2 years and compared to past years, I know alot more about them than ever before. I certainly know enough to describe the differences between Taiwanese mindsets and Mainlanders.
Taiwanese are not more traditional Chinese than mainlanders in my opinion. They are just slightly different. Mainlanders celebrate traditional holidays that the Taiwanese know nothing about because some holidays are regional/local to certain parts of the mainland, that involve famous landmarks etc.. Taiwan just uses traditional hanzi instead of simplified. At least Mao understood the limitations of Chinese Hanzi and tried to find a way to speed up writing the characters and make them more efficient. Besides hanzi, I Taiwan does not represent more Chinese culture than the mainland. If anything Taiwanese are more preppy, stuck up, and Westernized than anything else. After reading some of Winston's rants about them, the first thing I thought about was, "Gee, the Taiwanese in Taiwan, are not any different than the ones in the US...."
Also in Taiwan there is a group of "original Islanders" that were there before the WW2 Nationalists fled there, that are pretty proud about their individual culture and some still do not like the ones that fled to Taiwan due to the war. I'm sure as time passes, those two will continue to blend to the point no one cares, but there are still many old enough to care about that still.
Taiwanese people love to look down a bit at mainlanders and some of that is warranted to some degree, but you guys fight alot and struggle to understand your democracy in many ways. As an American, it's hard to talk about anyone else's democracy these days, but still...Taiwan politics are laughed at internationally for a reason.
As for the baggage part, any woman coming from a 3rd/2nd world country will have some kinds of baggage possibly. Sometimes not. Depends alot on the woman and her family combined really. All women will have a trade off or something you have to deal with compared to another.
As for that nagging part.... As a man that has been married before to a quiet vindictive/spiteful American woman, you would appreciate a woman that nags a little as opposed to having someone quietly ruin your entire life and never check on how you are doing. All women nag to some degree. Just have to find one that you can handle. Chinese women are super good at 2 main kinds of "nagging": Checking to see if you have eaten your 3 meals a day and "It is time for bed dear." Outside of that, it is just too varied based on the individual woman. Some nag way more than that about every f***ing thing, and some never ask you anything else the entire day other than the 2 things I listed.
Guys need to stop thinking that some cultures of women nag way less than others. I can find a nag-robot from any country. Easily. Sometimes I can tell if a woman nags alot by looking at her clothing style and the way she walks around in those clothes. 8/10 a woman wearing leopard print will nag too much. I dare you to find me one that does not, and wears that. Also like you kinda suggested, older women nag. All of them. White, black, latino, Asian, etc. All older women nag. Period. Especially any pre-though-post menopausal women.
My wife sends me an IM to check to see if I made it to work safely. Before she came to the US, she would not go to sleep unless I told her I got home safe from work, or arrived at work. If she is cooking she will pause every hour or so and see if I am okay. If that is "nagging" to you, well.... I don't know what to tell you. I'm glad she reminds me of things I often times forget to remember, I am a very busy person as a consultant. My wife "nags" waayyyyy less than my mother. That is good enough for me!
As for that status part, all women are status conscious. No woman wants the lowest denominator of a man. How often do you see women that come from families with 500,000 - 1 million + dating/marrying men that come from alot less? Not often at all. If you did, does she let that man be the man in the relationship? Or is he just a boy-toy along for the ride?
Typical Chinese culture is to never marry down. That is why you sometimes see rich Chinese dudes with so-so looking Chinese wives, because they do not want to give her family anything or have poor in-laws with baggage. In reality there is no reason for a rich Chinese guy to have a so-so looking woman at all, but some of them need their business and wealth to be low-key and handled with care by their spouse, so an equally rich one is going to shut her f***ing mouth and not draw too much attention.
The same shit happens in the West too. Some of the Taiwanese I know are ridiculous rich, and I can tell because of the huge 40K+ diamond rings, ivy league schooling, and white or well groomed Taiwanese men they have. Mainlanders might just have an expensive car, but that is it. The single Taiwanese, gave me no attention in the past, and I think it was because they are very rich, but I learned that Taiwanese do not trust strangers much at first. After a while then they like you ALOT, but they have a misleading initial friendliness that may make you think they can be befriended easily, but that attempt will fall flat. In that regard, they are VERY Western-like. Perhaps if I were more aggressive, possibly my experience would have been different but I kinda doubt that. Winston and a few others spoke of this too, so I know it isn't just me.
The good news is that, in Mainland China, you can find BEAUTIFUL 8,9, and 10's in ALL social-economic rankings!!! Try doing that with Taiwanese women!
If you make 50,000 per year, live in countryside or even NYC, you can still find a pretty one that will be down with you. If you make 100,000 -150,000 per year, you can find someone hot from China that will understand that level of money too, and may have the Chinese equivalent of that herself or her family.
On a personal note, I had like 3 Chinese girlfriends, in the past, that were....basically pretty poor...they were sweet, kind, etc. and 2 of them were very hot, but they either suckered/acted greedy and stupid/cheated me out of money, when I gave them what was the equivalent of maybe half a years salary for them, in the form of a gift or something. To me the money was not much at all, but I wanted to see how they would handle it. All of them failed. Miserably. My wife compared to them, while not as rich as me, is just not poor at all. Perhaps middle to middle-upper class for a Chinese. I could trust her with huge sums of money and I still do. My economic level here in the US is kinda of a perfect match to hers in China. I find that we just happen to be on the same page on money matters. She even manages it a little better than I do in some ways.
As for that competition part, that is maybe more of an issue for Asian-american men with other Asian and Asian-American women. You guys have all that jealously/face shit to deal with, mostly driven by your parents and relatives. Laowai, and other Westerners do not give two f***s what other Asians think about us or our Asian wives. Nuff said.
If you get a non-super rich Chinese girl, they are far less likely to give a shit about stuff like that. Mine could care less. She knows all the other Chinese around us are super rich. Means nothing to her because it is no different than in China. No one in her status level tries to compete with them over there, so why bother doing that over here?
Mainland Chinese tend to mind their own f***ing business unless there is a drama going on in the street. What about you Taiwanese? Do you guys gossip about other people's money and business alot like that? I do not think my wife is a lottery pick like that at all. I think she is very normal from my experience. I picked her out of a few others mostly because of her looks. She has every single fetish I like. In that regard, she is my lottery jackpot.
Thanks for the props, but China is pretty annoying for anyone that does not have to live there and is used to alot of freedoms and good manners. Even some Chinese there might tell you they wish they could leave China, if they like you enough and they know what the outside is like.
Sorry for the long post, but my last thought is that, why bother talking about Taiwan much, when probably 90+% of the guys here on HA, are probably not compatible with the women there. Taiwanese are too cliquish and unless you are one of them or a decent-looking rich-ish white male wanting a more sophisticated high-society, Western-ish like, and highly educated ethnically-Chinese woman, I don't recommend Taiwanese girls at all. I think the others would be better off chasing mainland women or other Chinese mix types (Singapore, Thai, Filipino, etc) or Japanese girls. Taiwanese girls have awesome English skills compared to similar educated Mainland Chinese girls though. Some of them even have "Valley Girl" accents too, if some of you like that.....
We may clown Winston sometimes, but in reality he isn't THAT bad. If he would go to China, he would end up with more options than he would like to deal with. That is probably why he won't go there. He is scared of finding the perfect one. LOL.
Someone sent me a PM about this and I gave more details and thought I would share it here and I will add it to my Guide's thread as well.
As far as the feminism in China goes, there are a few particular things going on there.
1. The Global Economy has shifted thinking into women must work outside the home if they have at least some college education or skill, mentality.
2. The VERY educated, self made, often times millionaire Chinese women that work alot.
3. The Second generation rich (fu er dai)/married rich men/families that just let their women run useless profit losing businesses like restaurants and KTVs for fun to keep the stuck up high strung girl/wife busy and out of trouble.
For example on the first group, my wife's father keeps asking her if she has found a job yet. He always bugs her about this. Before she left China and once she got here. My rule is that she cannot work. I make more than enough money and her level of education is not good enough to get a job better than working in a grocery store or a retail store in the US. I am not sending her to college either because that is just unnecessary school loan debts and expenses that I do not need more of. She actually helps me make more money by staying at home helping me do errands that I am too busy or unable to do as well as doing certain IT related things for me.
The point is that her father's mentality is the same as probably 65-80% of mainstream Chinese thought right now. Things are so expensive and life is still hard, so everyone should work now. The funny thing is that her mom does not work at all! Sometimes she helps her father do stuff at his companies, but overall she stays home. He should really look at the education money he spent on his daughter as a whole, in a sense that it allowed her English and other knowledge/intelligence to be good enough to be noticed by me, allowing her to live a good life with a good man.
The second group can be explained as a segment of a bigger discussion on Feminism and how it got it's start. Women working in the workplace sometimes find a way to get rich, just like many men do. In China, entrepreneurship is more prevalent than in the West. Everyone to some degree has their own business. In many ways you need to have your own businesses to even make money there. You can see ice cream drinks and snacks out one part of your house, and fireworks in the other part of your house. I have seen places in China that do all those and also have a tireshop and a mechanic shop next to the other 3 things they sell. This has unintended consequences because now China has more female millionaires than men now. Women in China sell clothes and cosmetics online on Taobao and some of them are making a small fortunes. Cosmetics itself in the US is over 8 billion a year, so it only makes sense to me why they are doing well.
The main point is this, money = power. The more money they earn, the more they want a man like their own self. In my guide I spoke about this as "Chinese never marry down as a general rule". Rich women in China only chase men that make 85,000 to 150,000 USD, ONLY AFTER they are unable to find a million + man. Often because these rich men have literally a million different options to pick from all of which are typically 8-10 in looks, and usually might come with some government (CCP) guanxi, that will help them make even more money.
Anyway, these women are picky because they know that if there is a divorce, they could possibly lose some of their money too and they want a man that wont beat them or do other common things Chinese men do. So they strive to find Chinese men that are more Western-like. When that fails, sometimes they give up and look for Westerners that are also somewhat wealthy. Those Westerners may find alot of value in them because they are still prettier than your average non-golddigger WW. Also this may allow them to bring their money into the West and get more investment opportunities they otherwise could not get being inside China. A rich lawyer I know has a Chinese wife that was a real estate mogul in China and does that here now for example.
For that 3rd group, these are educated young men and women, that grew up with money or married into money. These women work to fight boredom or their husbands or wives force them to open a business to keep them preoccupied and out of trouble. Sometimes the men that do this, just want their wives to be so busy, they can go f**k around with mistresses easier. Also it keeps their spoiled bratty wives from annoying them with bitchyness, etc. It's like, "Here's 2 million, go create a business or start a Karaoke (KTV) bar, and promote it. They also let them do this to distract attention from their corrupt business dealings as well, and they may use those business to provide entertainment to their business buddies and partners. It's all part of guanxi.
So in conclusion, what initially seems like Feminism leaking into China, may actually not be Feminism at all. If there was any real amount of Feminism, it is coming from the still single shengnu leftover workaholic women that are 30+ and have alot of money that cannot find the man they want. Many of those women stay single out of rebellion to their families, and if that ends that family's blood line they don't care at all. The ones that marry down and give up, are not necessarily feminist, but they could end up being tiger wives depending upon their personality. That first group is buying into the Global Economy Bullshit, which merely helps make Feminism easier to spread.
Another thing to think about is that loooooong before Feminism ever existed, Chinese Tiger Wives existed for thousands of years. Most of them know how far to push their men and only a few relatively speaking, are completely out of control awful. They have honed these skills for a long time. Chinese laws always kept men in control which was key. Most Chinese men I know that have Tiger Wives can always use the secret phrase of "Gou!!" (means Enough Woman!) when they have heard enough bitching and they usually shut up immediately.
The worst thing a Tiger Wife could do to a man was beat him up or beat up his mistresses. They controlled his money, but the thing is that she could still be trusted. You almost never hear of a tiger wife taking her man's money and fleeing to go marry another man. At first I thought Tiger Wives were terrible women, then as I saw more of why they were doing the things they did, it was usually 7 times out of 10 because the man was a fault. Like gambling the house away on Mah Jong. Some of Chinese men's culture would not work well if the wife refuses to be strict on her husband when he needs it. So, in essence a Tiger Wife might be, in my opinion, an evolved or advanced version of what many Feminists might eventually turn into. Strict on many things but ultimately submissive and fiercely loyal to make up for it.
A guy I met on Couchsurfing told me this about mainland Chinese women. What do you think? Is it true? Why did he have these experiences?
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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World