Indonesian Wives

[E Irizarry R&B Singer]

To E Irizarry R&B Singer: Yeah, I agree: Mongering while leaving a "trail-of-destruction" as you stated, only leaves a bad taste in the mouth of both American and foreign women, and ruins it for the rest of us.

That also makes women more feminist and become hateful towards men; Also it makes the females in some countries, become more Westernized in their behavior.

When I mean mongers, I mean the RooshV, ROK crowd, and some of the people on HappierAbroad (including Winston)--who only want to travel abroad to have sex with as many women as possible--without understanding the consequences of doing so. ...

Nice. We agree to agree and confirm. *Handshake* I felt I was indirectly addressed. LOL

[E Irizarry R&B Singer]

@zboy1,

PostScript: I will not, and I will not, marry an American or a Foreign woman stateside. Furthermore, I will not marry an American or Western woman for that matter anywhere on planet Earth.

[Mr S]

I've been to Indonesia numerous times and personally I find 95% of the women there to not be good looking. Now I may have different tastes, but I would say a majority of the girls have NO curves, no breasts (A-B cup), small flat ass, bean pole legs, super thin. Then there are the other ones who are plump who think they have curves but they are just fat with a big flat ass and still no tits but have the pear shape going on. I would say out of all the Malay Asian countries, Indonesia had the least decent looking women.

I went around everywhere in Jakarta (and Bali) and very rarely saw a girl I would even give a second glance too, and some of them had massive plastic surgery on them and so looked fake. I scoured the Malls, Bars, discos, looked at the GRO bars for Indonesians men (did not partake), foreigner bars, etc. All were pretty much the same. I personally don't go to Indonesia for the women, but more for the shopping and sightseeing. The only Indonesians that were friendly were the ones that were upper class and spoke English for some reason. All the others, mostly just ignore you or barely want to deal with you even when you are buying something from them. (unless they are gay)

I'm sure if you lived there a long time you could meet other kinds of locals but I still wouldn't find the locals decent looking or worth my time to date cause I don't find their bodies that attractive unless you're into prepubescent girl look, which I'm not.

I actually was more attracted to the other foreign girls hanging around in the malls or bars than the Indonesian girls. Jakarta is a huge city and lots of people from other countries visit or work there so it would maybe be better to try to get with one of them than a local Indonesian chick. I noticed a lot of central Asian women in the bars, from the stan countries. A lot of those chicks are whores though, but nice eye candy anyways.

Anyways, that's my two cents. I think girls in Thailand, Vietnam and Philippines are way better looking on average than Indonesian chicks if you are looking for the SE Asian look.

[MrMan]

Mr S,

I understand what you are saying. I mentioned in my opening post I'd find a lot more young women attractive in the US than in Indonesia. I'm really picky, too. I looked through some threads and some of the girls posted as potential 10's I'd consider maybe 8s for their face. As far as bodies go, I didn't see too many pear-shaped women in their 20's when I was in my 20's and looking. There were middle aged women who look like that. Maybe the diet has changed a bit.

A girl that most Indonesians consider pretty, I might consider so-so, or just too fat. But there are some really stunningly beautiful women. And if you find one, she looks different and exotic. I'd say my wife is in the 9+ range for looks, the range I put some of the better looking movie stars in.

As far as bodies go, if you like a woman to have large breasts, that may be hard to find in Indonesia. But there are women who do have some curves. You might like curvier than me. For me, I consider the ideal body type to be something like Audrey Hepburn though I'm okay with shorter legs, etc., and I could be attracted to a woman without her having to have huge breasts.

If you have to marry a woman who is thin with huge breasts that may be hard to find in Indonesia. If you are okay with small to medium, then Indonesia may be a good place.

We've got a bunch of kids, and my wife is still slim, a lot slimmer than I ma, and she's in her late 30's. Her face still looks great. She's a real beauty, and I can tell that other guys see that, too. I went to her family reunion, I'm talking about 500 people, and I did not notice anyone as pretty as her. She's got two cousins, maybe three or four if they'd grown their hair out, that I'd consider good-looking enough to marry.

So on looks, I was very selective. Jakarta is densely populated. If you are attracted to 1% of women instead of 5% or 3%, but the city is densely populated and you are a rock star as far as attraction goes, the odds still seems pretty good, IMO.

I also get the impression that the Philippines would probably have a lot more women I'd consider really good-looking, though I haven't been there. Maybe it's the mix of other Asian people-groups and Spanish blood.

The big plus with marrying an Indonesian, IMO, has to do with what their culture expects of wives and their attitudes toward marriage. Even then, you need to be selective.

If I'd never married and know what I know now or if I were a widower and wanted to remarry, I think I would go looking in Indonesia, but I'd be very selective in terms of both looks and character.

I'm not sure what you mean about most people not being friendly. I've experienced friendly people when I didn't speak Indonesian. But if you were in a touristy area where foreigners misbehaved a lot, I could see how you might get that reaction. I speak the language, though, so a lot of people were friendly with me when I was there.

[tamdrin12]

Thinking about teaching English in Indonesia while looking for your dream Indonesian wife?

Think Again!!!
https://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/ ... ia-warning

[MrMan]

Thinking about teaching English in Indonesia while looking for your dream Indonesian wife?

Think Again!!!
https://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/ ... ia-warning

Strange story. I'd never heard of that. I guess it pays to go over there on a business visit visa first and check the place out.

The president whose just finishing up his term is said to have done a lot about corruption, but when I was there, I'm pretty sure for $50 you could get an immigration official to get your a visa done up without the employer signing it. Not that I've ever done that. I've never heard about this problem.

The guy could just go work under the radar for some other employer until his work visa needed renewing, probably, and get out of the situation that way.

It may be worth it to own a PT (local company) under my wife's name and subcontract myself out to an employer if I work there again, though I don't plan on being an ESL teacher. I've had four KITAS visa sponsors and never had a problem with this. But I never bailed on my employer, or saw my employer take a dump in the street and hire prostitutes.

I suppose you could also insist on an multi-entry visa as a condition of employment for a strip to Singapore you'd like to take over the holidays.

It also helps to be prepared for culture shock and to know that sometime between month 3 and 6, you may want to leave the country. I didn't go through that in Indonesia, but I did in my early 20s in South Korea, which I think may have toughened me up for Indonesia. I got some close friendships fast in Indonesia, which also helps prevent the urge to leave.

[Mr S]

I noticed that the friendly ones were the ones that spoke English, the ones that didn't speak English pretty much ignored me for most anything unless I specifically was in their face about something. I didn't go to many touristy areas I mainly explored different parts of Jakarta on my own and went to a combination of local shopping places and the larger mixed malls. I noticed that CS was less helpful than here in PI, you would actually have to go up to someone to get assistance other than that they would ignore you. Even when I went to restaurants/bars and I had to wait and flag someone down to serve me, it was like I was invisible half the time.

Basically I figured out that the country isn't really friendly to foreigners if you don't speak the language. Obviously, if you speak the language you would have a different experience than just speaking English and phrase books to get around. Also, if you don't look conservative they treat you different, standoffish. I have my own independent look and style which isn't conformist to what is generally acceptable for society, especially sporting longer styled hair so that probably is problamatic as well in that country.

From my own travels conformist nations frown upon guys that don't have traditional conservative male style looks and one doesn't do too well socially unless you become one of them....which I would never do, but I could care less.

[MrMan]

Mr S,

I have always had reasonably short hair in Indonesia. I had a beard for a few days after getting out of the hospital, but shaved it after that. So I haven't tried to be a nonconformist in dress and see how people treat me. There is a style of hair for Timorese men that's long and styled, but it's not the norm in Jakarta.

People selling water and cigarettes on the side of the road are aggressive, but customer service people tend to wait until spoken to. I don't mind that. I enjoy a bit of anonymity going into a store sometimes.

If you are ever the guest in the home of a Javanese person, for example, the hospitality is really good. But it may not be the warmest country for people approaching strangers and making them feel super welcome. Neither is the US.

[Falcon]

Welcome to the forum MrMan. I am now seriously dating an Indonesian (Javanese) lady myself. I was just in Central Java recently and have stayed in rural villages that are off the tourist trail. I perfectly agree with many of your points and see that you've got plenty of knowledge and experience with Indonesia.

I'm just curious, but I'm wondering which ethnicity your wife is and what kabupaten (regency) she is from?
Feel free to PM me, and we can swap stories and photos.

[Falcon]

As far as people-groups go, Javanese women are kind of known for being submissive. Once I said something to my wife about being more submissive, and she said I could have married a Javanese woman. Javanese act nice and polite to you, they say, until they are so angry they want to kill you. That's how Indonesians say they hide or bottle up their feelings. I like the Javanese. They are very hospitable and try to make people feel comfortable. Bataks tend to be very pro-marriage, anti-divorce, and patriarchal. They are more outspoken and share their thoughts and feelings. The Sunda tend to be Muslim and have higher divorce rates, I hear, than most other people-groups. Padang tend to be strongly Islamic. The food is great, but the culture is matriarchal. Inheritance passes through the women. Women used to decide who the king would be. I've got some in-laws living there, but I wouldn't recommend marrying into the Padang culture.

Thanks for the interesting insights. And the Madurese are known as the Sicilians of Indonesia. They're stereotyped as being very aggressive, violent, pushy, and money-grubbing by the Javanese and Dayaks. Some Sundanese and Javanese guys in the cities, however, have very thuggish tendencies, and hence all the riots and street fights that have happened in Indonesia throughout the years.

Traditional Javanese women are indeed polite, and can be outwardly submissive but can be quite good at managing the household money and other things on their own. Pre-Islamic Indonesia was mostly matrilineal, so women had a more equal footing back then than in ancient China.

I noticed that the friendly ones were the ones that spoke English, the ones that didn't speak English pretty much ignored me for most anything unless I specifically was in their face about something.

Most of the friendly ones I've met did not speak English. I usually speak Bahasa Indonesia with all the Indonesian ladies I meet, as well as a smattering of Javanese if they happen to speak that too. As a young Asian male who looks relatively conservative and speaks the local language fluently, I guess my experience would have been quite different from yours.

[MrMan]

Falcon,

My wife is Batak. She grew up near Medan for part of her life and moved to Jakarta around her teenage years.

You say Javanese women are outwardly submissive. Are they submissive in the home and in marriage as well. My wife has made comments about herself not being more Javanese once when I expressed a desire for her to be a bit more submissive.

Javanese are stereotyped as not telling you what they think if they are upset until they are ready to kill you. But the Batak are more straightforward about their thoughts. They can be a very expressive people in a lot of ways. Lots' of lawyers and preachers are Batak. Though there are plenty of two-bit Batak thugs. Bus driver seems to be another common occupation. In the villages, there are farmers, too, of course.

As far as I know, Batak culture was traditionally patriarchal. Aceh and Padang culture are traditionally matriarchal, though they are heavily Islamic now, which is patriarchal, so those two tendencies clash or counteract each other.

Were the Javanese patriarchal? I hear if your dad is Javanese, they count you as Javanese, which sounds patriarchal. The Sultan of Yokja used to have many wives.

Btw, I speak Indonesian fluently. I was up to the level of small talk with a cab driver at about 6 months, and progressively improved, especially after meeting my wife, for about 4 or 5 years, and kind of plateaued. I plateaued before meeting my wife about 2 years into learning the language. I used a Lonely Planet phrasebook to get started and sort of picked it up from people from there on.

[Falcon]

Falcon,

My wife is Batak. She grew up near Medan for part of her life and moved to Jakarta around her teenage years.

You say Javanese women are outwardly submissive. Are they submissive in the home and in marriage as well. My wife has made comments about herself not being more Javanese once when I expressed a desire for her to be a bit more submissive.

Javanese are stereotyped as not telling you what they think if they are upset until they are ready to kill you. But the Batak are more straightforward about their thoughts. They can be a very expressive people in a lot of ways. Lots' of lawyers and preachers are Batak. Though there are plenty of two-bit Batak thugs. Bus driver seems to be another common occupation. In the villages, there are farmers, too, of course.

As far as I know, Batak culture was traditionally patriarchal. Aceh and Padang culture are traditionally matriarchal, though they are heavily Islamic now, which is patriarchal, so those two tendencies clash or counteract each other.

Were the Javanese patriarchal? I hear if your dad is Javanese, they count you as Javanese, which sounds patriarchal. The Sultan of Yokja used to have many wives.

Btw, I speak Indonesian fluently. I was up to the level of small talk with a cab driver at about 6 months, and progressively improved, especially after meeting my wife, for about 4 or 5 years, and kind of plateaued. I plateaued before meeting my wife about 2 years into learning the language. I used a Lonely Planet phrasebook to get started and sort of picked it up from people from there on.

The Javanese are patrilineal. Names are often derived from fathers (for example, "Sukarnoputri," which means "daughter of Sukarno"). And yes, many groups in Sumatra such as the Minangkabau are strongly matrilineal.

Personally I think it's hard to generalize about Javanese women, because Javanese occupy all social strata and occupations in Indonesia, from the lowliest beggars to dictators of the entire country. It's a common stereotype that many Indonesians have of Javanese, but as modernization speeds up things can get quite different. Some Javanese women can be quite free-spirited and will definitely boss their husbands around, especially if they're middle-class office ladies. I know a Javanese woman who told her husband to work in South Korea instead of Taiwan, since Taiwan has a lot of female Indonesian migrants (and hence she thinks his chances of infidelity are greater over there). So the guy listened and got a job at a Korean factory.

Nowadays, many lower-class Javanese women go abroad by themselves to get job as domestic workers, and will often end up with way more money than their husbands and all the other guys in their home villages. The women get to manage the family money.