Our WeChat Rants on China vs Western Feminism/Modernism

[yick]

China made we realize what a true Confucianist society was like

China is a shadow compared to Korea regarding it being a 'true' Confucianist society. If that is your bag, go there.

Have to say though, the Chinese get it right in a lot of ways. How they bring their kids up to behave is one such way.

[Bao3niang]

Traditionally Chinese females were brought up to value their virginity a lot. It's how I'd like my daughter to behave. I wouldn't want her giving her virginity to some scum or jerk, like pretty much all Western / Westernized women do. A woman being sexy is one thing, sexualization has a different meaning.

[Winston]

Ethan_sgs great rant about how in Singapore and America, one is expected to treat work as one's religion and one's job/company is their God - all of which is insane and upside down and forced. But in China, it is understood that work is a necessary evil and not supposed to be pleasurable. Thus China is more real and sane and tells it like it is. But in the US and Singapore, and Japan too, work is supposed to be pleasurable and if it isnt then there's something wrong with you. You are supposed to "love your job" or force yourself to, in order to be normal and well adjusted. Its all forced, meaning you are not given any choice about it. Its all very sickening.

Ethan_sg:

"Wow being back in China I feel this sense of vitality and energy in the air whereas sterile Singapore made me feel lethargic and without energy. Being back I now feel like a fish which just moved back from the aquarium to the ocean lol.

In singapore work, especially corporate work is worshipped as a religion and way of life. It is assumed that work is the meaning of life and if it doesn't make you happy , they say you need to adjust your attitude. Work is glorified as if it were one's sole purpose in living. I'm sure it's the same in corporate America. At least in China while people do work hard, it is seen more as a 'necessary evil' rather than glorified as the meaning of life. They don't pretend that work is something sacred or pleasurable the way Singapore or America does. They work to survive and don't pretend that it should be pleasurable. Having said that, it would probably still be easier to be happy or at least not as frustrated at work in china because workplace environments are more harmonious and less political in china. Many people here become close to their colleagues because they see each other as fellow human beings first and foremost and colleagues second."

[chanta76]

Winston,

It's not just Singapore. South Korea and Japan is like that. I don't know how China is really like but I also hear Hong Kong to some extent is like that. Work and school is allot tougher in those countries. But that's why Japan and South Korea has strong economy.

[Winston]

Regarding Japan:

Ethan_sg:

"In Japan their foremost loyalty seems to be towards the corporation, not the family unit."

Bao3niang:

"True. They give their lives to their corporations.

Like they begin in their 20s, at like 23, and assuming they can hold down a job they are expected to work into their late 50s / early 60s.

And with the current state of things these men may never get married."

Ethan_sg:

"The problem is not the men, it's the women. The women set their standards too high because of hypergamy and their ability to make a living on their own. Also the women are unmarriable - unsuitable to be wives.

That's why I say north east Asian feminism is less political but turns women into entitled princesses/careerists with no wife qualities - don't cook, don't do housework etc."

Bao3niang:

"China is so fortunate in many regards compared to developed Asian countries. In China there's still life."

Winston:

"In japan your corporation is your family. People even marry within the corporation right? Choosing a corporation to work for must be like choosing a religion in japan. Lol"

Ethan_sg:

"Yeah and you have to do morning exercises with the entire company every morning. Be late and you're in big trouble lol. Plus chronic overtime working. You can leave office until your boss leaves.

I don't know how people can live like that."

Winston:

"Why dont Japanese workers collapse from exhaustion?"

Zboy1:

"Yes, Japanese men are worked to death in Japan. Otherwise, Japan is a nice place.

Why aren't Japanese men going on strike or trying to change things?"

Winston:

"Probably because the corporation is god and you cannot go on strike against god or protest against him. Thats anathema.

Also I'm sure Japanese corporations give their workers a lot of benefits and treat them well. That garnishes their loyalty. My dad worked for NUMMI before in California. It was run like a Japanese company. They gave us full health insurance coverage, not just for him but for the whole immediate family."

[Winston]

China made we realize what a true Confucianist society was like

China is a shadow compared to Korea regarding it being a 'true' Confucianist society. If that is your bag, go there.

Have to say though, the Chinese get it right in a lot of ways. How they bring their kids up to behave is one such way.

But the confucianism in japan and korea is a sham. Heres what we said about that below in our WeChat group.

Bao3niang:

"In Tokyo they move out of their parents' home when they start working even if they are living in the same city as them. In China they only move out if they are moving to work in a different city. I don't see any Confucianism in modern day workaholic Japanese society at all.

Confucianism as adopted by Japan and Korea is only to disguise the ugly realities of legalism and capitalism.

@Winston Confucianism has been twisted and distorted by the ruling class. What it really is, as practiced today in places such as Singapore and South Korea, Taiwan too, is a legalistic core with a Confucian mask.

Confucianism in its original form emphasized reciprocal relationships, meaning that both sides must treat each other with respect, understanding and compassion. The unjust, whether a government or the head of a family, can be get rid of."

[Winston]

Note: I changed the title of this thread because it contains rants from others in our WeChat group, not just ethan_sg, so it should be titled accordingly to reflect the group discussion.

[Winston]

My response to ethan_sg:

Winston:

"If you think Singaporean workaholic mentality is bad, then get this: in Bellingham, Washington back in 2001, I interviewed with an insurance sales company. The interviewer told me something that shocked me. She said that they didnt want someone who gives 100 percent effort to their company and job. 100 percent was not enough. They expected the ideal candidate to be willing to give 110 percent!!!!!!!!

Holy f**k. What the f**k? Lol. What am i supposed to do, run on fumes when i burn out, like rocky balboa, just for an insurance job? Lol. What do they think i am? Why should that be the norm for the ideal candidate? Why is that even a good thing? Geez.

It was so surreal. I didnt know what to say or think. I dont like to lie and pretend that im gonna give 110 percent of myself to my job, especially a boring insurance job. Im just there for a paycheck. Geez. How crazy can america be? Too bad Washington has beautiful nature but its people are not down to earth.

What would u guys have said in that situation? Those folks seem out of touch with reality. Isnt life supposed to be enjoyed? Sheesh. Do they think god wants everyone to live and breathe their work and give 110 percent? Lol. Unbelievable! I hated that kind of mentality and culture so much yet in america thats the norm, thats the ideal, thats the religion. And youre supposed to agree with it, as if it were a natural law of the universe. Lol. Go figure. f**k that.

Did the Americans steal the american lands from the native American Indians, just so they can instate a culture where people give 110 percent of themselves to their corporate jobs? Lol. If so f**k that. America was better off under the Indians. Give america back to them. At least indians were never that insane to expect such things. Its not in harmony with nature to give yourself 110 percent to a corporation. Geez. Dont those stupid Washingtonians and Californians know that? Gee whiz. People are so f***ing stupid. I swear. God must love stupid people. Why did he make so many of them?!

Like what did they expect me to say? That im gonna say "oh yes! Im happy and eager to give 110 percent of myself to this job! Yes siree!" Lol

What does it mean to give 110 percent anyway? Does it mean to do better than your best? As if your best is not good enough. No. You gotta do BETTER than your best. Lol. You rise above your limits. You gotta go the extra mile to make sure you beat your competitors. And to exceed customer expectation. Thats the role model employee. Lol

Were any of you told to give 110 percent too? Lol. Needless to say, i never followed up on that insurance job after the interview. Way too psycho for me. Lol"

Ethan_sg:

"Absolutely agree regarding the corporate 110% bullshit @Winston. That's the difference between America and China. In China people may work hard but they DON'T reify corporations into god-like entities that you're somehow supposed to devote your life to. They recognize that work is not meant to be pleasurable and a merely a means to an end. They don't turn it into a religion like Americans or Singaporeans. f**k corporate culture."

Winston:

"You mean "deify" right?"

Ethan_sg:

"No I meant reify. To objectify something that's a mere abstraction into something concrete and real.

It's reified into a religion. In reality it's a false abstraction. There is no community in corporations.

In reality it's just wage slavery. They reify it into a religion as if it should be our life's sole purpose."

[yick]

China made we realize what a true Confucianist society was like

China is a shadow compared to Korea regarding it being a 'true' Confucianist society. If that is your bag, go there.

Have to say though, the Chinese get it right in a lot of ways. How they bring their kids up to behave is one such way.

But the confucianism in japan and korea is a sham. Heres what we said about that below in our WeChat group.

Bao3niang:

"In Tokyo they move out of their parents' home when they start working even if they are living in the same city as them. In China they only move out if they are moving to work in a different city. I don't see any Confucianism in modern day workaholic Japanese society at all.

Confucianism as adopted by Japan and Korea is only to disguise the ugly realities of legalism and capitalism.

@Winston Confucianism has been twisted and distorted by the ruling class. What it really is, as practiced today in places such as Singapore and South Korea, Taiwan too, is a legalistic core with a Confucian mask.

Confucianism in its original form emphasized reciprocal relationships, meaning that both sides must treat each other with respect, understanding and compassion. The unjust, whether a government or the head of a family, can be get rid of."

With all due respect, Winston - what do you know about South Korea? Have you ever visited, never mind lived there?

I have lived in both South Korea AND China.

No-one is saying it's a TRUE Confucianist society, it's just moreso than China.

And China is the better for it.

[Eric]

I feel a need to chime in on this discussion about China, since I was there. I have to say I didn't like China all that much, although I was in Beijing the whole time - even the Chinese consider it a soulless shithole...where people trample over each other for materialism and gains in status.
I have to be honest, China was not the utopia many are claiming here, it is. Women were beautiful, but wary of the foreigner...people always rail against western women - but one thing they have is sexuality and they're far more sexually open, and that's nice. Not so in China.
Be prepared to meet their Mom, family...get married after a first date.
I found that China was very similar to what America has become, in a very weird way....remember that both countries are communist (the USA has in many ways become communist). Its just China has already gone through it...the country and people are very cold. It almost felt robotic the whole while I was there. The women and whole scene was nice for nice dating...if that's what you want.
Chinese women will not put out.

It was on the whole a simpler society to live in. But it was just flat and kind of had this artificial monotone feel to the whole culture.
Id have liked to have seen mainland China and not just Beijing. Chinese girls are very cold, as is the culture there in general. If you go there, learn Chinese....it'll help to know what's going on around you.
Make some Chinese friends, they are good to have and are good friends.

[yick]

I think that is a fair enough post and some good advice, Eric.

I am personally sorry that you didn't enjoy your time there, as they say in the UK - China is 'marmite' you either love it or you hate it.

I like living here but it took a long time to acclimatise, I am pretty sure I could have acclimatised a lot easier in a lot of other places but now I am here, I like living here, but there is a lot to get used to, it isn't an easy place to settle and really - life is too short if you aren't happy and haven't got time to acclimatise.

Look for other pastures, Eric - you were talking about Latin America, that might be more up your street, regroup and look for new pastures, good luck!

[Winston]

Below ethan_sg explains why good customer service in taiwan or singapore does not mean the country is friendly or has a good social atmosphere, as rock and monkro and others seem to believe.

Ethan_sg:

"Well I don't think good customer service can be used as gauge of the nature of the people and the social atmosphere in a country to be fair. Any premium customer oriented company can require mandate and train its staff to treat customers like kings, as they do at nice hotels and fine dining restaurants. They are trained to 'serve' the rich elite well. You can find many expensive restaurants and hotels in Singapore with top notch customer service too, but it says little about the actual social atmosphere in a country. If a hotel offers complimentary food and drinks, it doesn't actually mean they are offering food and drinks for free out of generosity - it's because they've done the math and calculated that given the amount they are charging customers for the rooms, they can afford to throw in complimentary food and drinks so as to give customers a positive experience and attract them not only to return in future but to also recommend the hotel to their friends. They've calculated that the net benefits of offering complimentary food and drinks outweigh the cost of the food and drinks and deemed it to be a prudent business move but it does not to me in any way reflect on the social atmosphere of a country. It's not as if this hotel would offer free food and drinks to random non-hotel guests who simply walked in from the streets or to homeless beggars lol. Now yes one may say but we don't get this kind of service much in the Philippines - true but that is also because in many less developed countries the corporate strategies may not be as sound as service staff may not be as well trained. This to me is not an issue about the social atmosphere of a country (and I'm not making any implications on whether the social atmosphere in Taiwan is good or bad) but is an entirely an issue of implementation of corporate strategies and should not be used as a reflection of the social atmosphere in a country. Also, In a poor country like the Philippines, premium customer service may be scarce because there is comparatively low demand for premium services in a country very proportionately few people can afford it."

[Winston]

Question:

Is it true that you cannot really own house or land in china and that u can only lease property from government? That means no one can really own a house permanently? Thats bad. I thought china is no longer communist.

Ethan_sg:

"In theory yes but in actuality it's not enforced. Which apartments can last 70 years anyway? Most are way too decapitated decades before then and are bought over either by private developers (real estate developers) or the government to make way for new apartments, so the owners do get their money back.

In theory it belongs to the government but in practice it belongs to you. This concept of leasehold property ownership is not unique to mainland china. In Hong Kong, (and this started prior to being returned to China) all property is technically leasehold - and despite this it has one of the most expensive real estate in the world. In Singapore 80% of house owners own leasehold properties. Even in London, most flats and apartments are leasehold not freehold. Leasehold properties are a common scenario around the world. In theory the properties don't belong to the owner but to the government but in practice the government or any private corporations would have to pay fair value for the properties in order to buy it over. The US is almost unique in this sense whereby the concept of leasehold property is foreign and freehold property is the norm. In practice this difference is largely academic. The leasehold clause is in place so that in the event of something drastic such as a war-time emergency, the government can retain the legal prerogative to repossess land as and when needed for emergency purposes. The concept of leasehold property is not unique to china but can sometimes be overplayed by those discussing the real estate market in China.

My problem with the modern real estate situation around the world is not that it is leasehold but that is unaffordable and requires a lifetime of debt and interest slavery in order to pay up for a house in most big cities around the world today. The biggest beneficiaries of this are the Jewish bankers and real estate tycoons around the world."

[Winston]

Some new insights from ethan_sg about what has happened to women in developed countries. So true and unjust.

Ethan_sg:

"Men and women each have their own natural advantages over each other that were meant to complement each other in a harmonious union. Men are physically and emotionally stronger, braver and more logical while women are extremely intuitive, better with domestic affairs and have sexual power over men - men are very physically attracted to women. Women have traditionally needed men to protect and provide - this goes back to prehistoric times due to their superior physical strength while men have traditionally needed women to fill their sexual needs and help take care of domestic affairs. It was symbiotic union that meant each gender was able to use its natural strengths/advantages to complement the other.

Modern society has screwed up this natural balance. Now that women are protected by the state and technology means that one can make a living without requiring the comparative physical strength that men have (ie women can making a living for themselves too), men's traditional natural advantage over women has been effectively removed. We no longer have the same leverage over women anymore.

However, men continue to desperately need women for sex - the female natural advantage over males remains. Hence feminism has created an imbalance in modern society where men need women more than women need men.

The above is a brief albeit crude summary of what's going on.

Women on the other hand become increasingly picky and hypergamous because they no longer have a primal need for men - they no longer need men to protect and provide. Hence they can become hypergamous and only settle for so called elite men with super wealth, looks or status etc. Eventually of course there are not enough so called elite men to go around and you get much lower marriage rates, lower birth rates which you see in developed countries all over the world - women don't want to settle unless it's with an elite man because they can afford to.

There probably isn't a single developed country out there today where native birth rates (not counting immigrants) are at replacement rate.

The above is of course a generalization of what's going on. Social trends can only be analyzed with the use of generalizations. There are of course exceptions and not all women are equally hypergamous. There are still good women out there without unreasonable expectations in men especially in countries like China, Vietnam, Laos and Thailand. Yet if nothing is done the situation will only continue to deteriorate and good women will increasingly become the exception rather than the norm."

[Winston]

Did you guys know that in China, one does not have to replace their identity with their job like you do in the US? And one does not need to view work like a religion or God either. Instead one is allowed to be real about work and live in reality. See our WeChat discussion below.

Ghost:

"Americans especially seem to equate job with identity. Since consumerism replaced community, job also replaced identity. In a consumerist culture your job and money define your identity and worth."

Ethan_sg replied with these profound observations:

"Over here in China many people seem to see their job as a means to an end rather and determinant of their identity - it's a subtle but important difference.

Equating job with identity and replacing community with consumerism is very evident in Singapore too, sadly so.

In China for instance you can see that even the policemen are all pretty laid-back approachable, and come across as just another average everyday kinda guy on the street. In America the cops are bastards, self important, violent, cold and take themselves far too seriously. They are almost inhuman.

Winston and I were at a night club the other day which had a lot of female dancers and pole dancing and we saw that even the security guard and another man on uniform were having a good time smoking and chatting with the girls and taking it easy lol despite technically supposed to being the bouncers of the club. In America bouncers are kinda like cops - self important self - righteous, unapproachable, violent, with a tendency to be "white knights" - discriminate against men and protect women. The atmosphere is so much more tense. Over here even the security guy feels friendly and like someone you could have a drink with at the club. lol

The lack of self importance in the attitudes of the people in China is an indication of how people see themselves as fellow human beings first and foremost, and their jobs merely as a secondary role they have to fulfill in order to make a living. In westernized and modernized countries, people morph into self important automatons behaving as if the only purpose and meaning in their lives is fulfilling their occupational requirements, their "KPIs" ( key performance indicators ) as they like to put it - it's detestable.

Really hate the term KPI, makes me feel like a robot with functions I've been programmed to fulfill."