Join John Adams, world renowned Intl Matchmaker, Thurs nights 8:30 EST for Live Webcasts with FREE Prizes!
And check out Five Reasons why you should attend a FREE Live AFA Seminar! See locations and details.


Scam free! Check out Christian Filipina - Meet Asian women with Christian values! Members screened.
Exclusive book offer! 75% off! How to Meet, Date and Marry Your Filipina Wife



View Active Topics       Latest 100 Topics       View Your Posts       FAQ Topics       Switch to Mobile


Taiwan, the younger generation

Discuss culture, living, traveling, relocating, dating or anything related to the Asian countries - China, The Philippines, Thailand, etc.

Moderators: jamesbond, fschmidt

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby Falcon » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:58 am

There's even a Wikipedia article about this phenomenon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry_generation

Strawberry generation is a Chinese language neologism for Taiwanese people born after 1981 who "bruise easily" like strawberries – meaning they can not withstand social pressure or work hard like their parents' generation; the term refers to people who are insubordinate, spoiled, selfish, arrogant, and sluggish in work.

The term arises from the perception that members of this generation have grown up being overprotected by their parents and in an environment of economic prosperity, in a similar manner to how strawberries are grown in protected greenhouses and command a higher price compared to other fruits.

The term is starting to gain prominence in the East Asian press, as it could be a way to designate a rising demographic or psychographic in terms of consumer behavior. The Strawberry Generation, like the Post-80s of China, could be the Asian counterpart of the Millennials in the Western world.
Falcon
Experienced Poster
 
Posts: 1654
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:59 pm







Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby El_Caudillo » Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:14 pm

Yes 1981 would about the right year...I have been out on dates with a couple of girls here in their early 30s who showed strawberry generation traits. They have them as well in mainland China, but due to the size of the population and the different stage of development of different areas, it's easy to find people...NOTHING like it. I'm all cool with the idea of going out with a woman of my own age - i.e. late thirties, but there doesn't seem to many attractive ones available? I've looked at both Rock's and Winston's theses on dating in Taiwan and both resonate to some degree with me - also nice to find that others had been nutting out this issue long before I started to struggle to figure it out. Taipei could almost use some petty street crime - it would get people more aware of their surroundings.
User avatar
El_Caudillo
Freshman Poster
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby Eric » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:47 am

It always seems and seemed to me that people are like blind, searching around stumbling like fools in the dark; just stumbling around... when I was growing up - but I'm sure it's everywhere. I couldn't understand why everyone was so different from me; growing up. It seemed like people just didn't want to do things smart, they had the instruction in front of them; but turned away. But it's like men don't know how to be and act like men, and the women are just waiting ...... waiting for a right man, and there are none. Ialso notice people just seem to not care at all. It can be good because they are flexible, flexibility & the ability to go with the flow are very good things; I'm working on them - but too much is bad because you don't lead.

It's been a hard road for me to walk, especially because I came from a father that emphasized control over everything; so that's in me..
I accept I didn't grow up normally, like others allowed to just be; but had stricter unnatural standards put on me - that's fine, it messed me up; but I have to work to make myself more natural.
I don't envy materialism, but I envy these stupid kids who grow up to be natural, stupid loose people; who were just allowed to be,
forgiveness works for me forgiving my father - that feeling (anger) was a stumbling block to me healing. It's hard to explain,
but you have to forgive.
I've never understood this vapid, materialistic culture - I mean I get it I guess I never let myself continue down that road far too long, that's all.
I do find Chinese hard to read in general. Often they seem wary of foreigners, like they must have seen some really bad ones, or something... I get that, then there are some real nice curious ones. The shoving sucks.
-"Virescit vulnere virtus"
User avatar
Eric
Junior Poster
 
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:07 am

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby Winston » Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:12 pm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Snowflake

Generation Snowflake, or Snowflake Generation, is a term that refers to young people, typically university or college students, who seek to avoid emotionally charged topics, or dissenting ideas and opinions. This may involve support of safe spaces and trigger warnings in the university setting.[1][2][3][4] It has also been used by The Daily Telegraph and GQ writers to refer to Millennials.

Characteristics

Generation Snowflake members "are genuinely distressed by ideas that run contrary to their worldview"; they are more likely than previous generations of students to report that they have mental health problems.[4] A UK Higher Education Policy Institute survey of university students in 2016 "found that 76% would ban speakers who had views that offended them, while half (48%) wanted universities to be declared safe spaces where debate can only take place within strict rules."[3] This is coupled with a strong sense of entitlement.[2][4]

Author Claire Fox argues we created Generation Snowflake by over-protecting them as children.[4] In the UK, Tom Bennett was recruited by the government to address behaviour in schools.[6] He commented that Generation Snowflake children at school can be over-protected from reality, leading to problems when they progress to university and are confronted with real-world truths.[6]They can react with intolerance towards people and things that they believe may offend someone.[6]

The negative connotations of the term Generation Snowflake have been criticised for having been applied too widely: Bennett also commented that "It's true that our children have never had it so good, and some have never known anything but a status quo of swimming in surplus. It's true that, for some of these children, losing fast wi-fi is a crisis and being offended on the internet is a disaster. [...] But then I remember the other ones, and I reckon they all balance each other out."[7]
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
 
Posts: 23609
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:16 pm

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby Winston » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:51 am

Hi all,
I talked to el caudillo on the phone yesterday. Great guy. Very aware and down to earth.

One important point i made was that i think you forum members overblow the smart phones and social media factor as the cause of the social disconnection of america and taiwan. I think these things are a factor and a distraction, but not the primary cause of social disconnection. After all, i have a smart phone but it doesnt make me antisocial or any less social or open.

The primary cause has got to be something deeper. I theorize that something in the upbringing of people is at work. The way you are raised in taiwan and america is to suppress your true self, be fake and live in fear so you can be a workaholic and good consumer. Somewhere along the line this causes an inner split in your mind and soul and psyche. In other words, there is a psychological disconnect within themselves. This inner disconnect is in turn reflected into an outer disconnect with others. This makes sense since our inner world manifests into our outer world.

Take someone who is wholesome with a healthy mind and rich soul. This person will be at ease with strangers and will be kind and comfortable talking with others usually. A highly spiritual person for instance, is at ease when talking to strangers. You might have noticed that.

I think another deep factor is that those who live inauthentic lives and have inauthentic personalities are afraid of authentic wholesome people, because they act as MIRRORS that show them what they really are. In a sense they are blinded by the light, the same way dracula is blinded by the sunlight and fearful of it. Their souls and spirits are dead, just as dracula and vampires are dead. Thus they fear the light of someone who is very authentic and genuine and real and alive in soul.

Thats why closed minded people fear open minded people and are uncomfortable around them and find reasons to dislike them and see them as weird.

This may also explain why taiwanese people seem to naturally dislike mainland chinese people for no reason, and claim that they are too rude or blunt, which is exaggerated to the point of being irrational. This theory above would be a deeper explanation for why taiwanese dislike mainland chinese, rather than the superficial reasons they cite which make no sense.

Does my theory make sense? It would seem so. I definitely see that people are like dead souls in both Taiwan and America, way too repressed and living in fear and psychologically controlled. They are not natural people at all, furthest from it.

The great Noam Chomsky said that when a country offers political freedoms, its elite must control the masses through increased psychological control, often through deception. But with fewer political freedoms, this becomes less necessary, as in the case of china, so people are allowed to be more human and less repressed and less psychologically controlled. This explains why in most countries, people are more genuine and down to earth and real than in taiwan and america -- similar to how americans were in the 1960s and 1970s, very human and genuine and real. (See the movies and TV shows back then and you will see this difference compared to now.)

So basically, a government has two choices: either it gives people high political freedoms along with high psychological control, or low political freedoms and low psychological control. Or moderate degrees of both. This is why in russia and china, you feel a lot more free, because there is no political correctness, liberalism and you can be yourself. You are free to be real and genuine, to have real emotions and feelings and free to be honest too. But you certainly dont feel that in america or taiwan.

What do you all think? Does my theory make sense?
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
 
Posts: 23609
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:16 pm

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby chanta76 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:21 am

Winston,

I think with wealthy country like Taiwan and USA the people become more self-centered. It's as simple as that. People become more self-center and superficial. I don't know if I agree with the inner spirit being suppress if anything as you become more selfish you just care about what you want. In some extent for the guys that post here or want to live abroad are selfish too because it's about what they want.

Back in agriculture culture it was more about group harmony. Countries that are still poor still have elements of this because cooperation is important among the community. The kids are raise to cooperate. Because of this people are more open. But as a country gets richer the family becomes smaller. There is a correlation to smaller families and having less kids in wealthy countries vs poor countries.

As a country gets richer there is more influence in pop culture. So kids watch TV or listen to pop music. They idolize that. So being good looking is more important or having some sort talent like dancing or singing or something becomes more important. In poorer country just getting the basic is all that is important. So a guy that is ugly can get a girl because that guy offers the basic. In rich country that is not enough.

It's simple as that. In rich country superficiality and selfishness is what cause the coldness.
chanta76
Experienced Poster
 
Posts: 1486
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:56 pm

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby Winston » Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:58 pm

Hi all,
Me and El Caudillo met the other day. We got along great. He's very down to earth, aware and an honest freethinker. We agreed on a lot of things and had similar observations. Some of the things we agreed on were:

1. Taiwanese girls seem to lack curiosity. When you talk to them, they don't ask "Where are you from?" like girls in other Asian countries do.

2. They also don't put much into a conversation. If you start a conversation with them, they either try to end it as soon as they can, or put no effort into it. They just aren't into talking to strangers at all.

Yet in spite of all this, when you go out in Taiwan, you see couples everywhere, both young and old. And in most of these couples, the male is usually NOT attractive at all. Many of them are even less attractive than me. Yet they are usually with pretty/cute Taiwanese girls. How do you explain that? It's baffling. And it looks like any guy can get a girlfriend in Taiwan.

I can only think of these explanations:

1. In Taiwan, you are supposed to meet people at school and work, or through mutual friends only. Not by talking to strangers. Taiwanese girls prefer to date and befriend guys they went to school with or work with. That's what makes them COMFORTABLE. To them, being comfortable around a guy is everything. They'd prefer to talk to an ugly guy they know and went to school with and are comfortable with, than a handsome attractive stranger. This means if you are a stranger, you virtually have no chance, because Taiwanese females are uncomfortable, closed and stuck up toward strangers.

2. Life is determined mostly by destiny. If you aren't meant to be in Taiwan, you won't find a good dating or social life there and won't have a girlfriend or wife. If you are meant to be there, then God or the universe will send you a girlfriend or wife to be your companion. If something is meant to be, it will come naturally and in the flow of things. You can't just "make it happen".

3. Taiwanese and Westerners have a mental barrier that makes them too different to vibe together or connect at all. Taiwanese women seem like a different species, almost like alien clones with no soul or emotion, kind of like in the film "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" from 1978. So I can see why this would be. Plus when you see foreigners in Taiwan, they are usually hanging out with other foreigners, not local Taiwanese. Either that, or they are with Westernized Taiwanese or Asian Americans. This lends further credence to explanation #3. Basically, people who are too different do not feel comfortable with each other. They don't vibe well. Just like when a lion and a hyena meet out in the wild, they know right away that they are enemies, not friends, because they are competing species.

4. If you are unique and a freethinker, you will not connect with very many women anyway. Freethinkers are on a different wavelength than most people are. And Asian women especially tend to be staunch conformists to society, even more so than White women are. This means there will be very few Asian women who can relate to you if you're a freethinker or unique. Being unique also means you won't be able to connect with many people in general.

5. When you don't fit into a culture, you don't shine or radiate. Hence, you will have lower energy and not draw women as you would if you were in your element. Your self-esteem will be lower too since the culture does not validate you or bring out the best in you. Good luck doesn't happen to you when you are in an incompatible culture, and this includes girlfriends, because there's no synergy or chemistry with you and others.

El_Caudillo also said that he noticed that in Taiwan, when a white guy sees another white guy, they don't usually talk to each other or say hi. But in China, they usually do. It's as if the antisociality of Taiwan rubs off on white guys, so that they become the same, absorbing the Taiwanese habit of ignoring strangers and not being open.

We also notice the following truisms about middle class people in general.

1. Middle class people tend to be easily offended, more so than working class or lower class people.
2. Middle class people tend to be more politically correct, rather than truthful or brutally honest.
3. Their friendships tend to be superficial and not meaningful.
4. They tend to be snobby and judgmental and look down on others just because they are different.
5. They are cliquish in their social behavior and exclusive. Not very inclusive or open with strangers.
6. They prefer fake greetings and fake optimism, saying that they are always "doing great" when asked "How are you?"

But poor people who work in blue collar jobs tend not to adopt the above and are more real and less into political correctness. Have you all noticed all this too? It means that middle class people aren't easy to get along with, even if you're middle class yourself.

I come from an upper middle class background, yet I'm very down to earth, genuine, soulful and philosophical. And I'm not snobby or politically correct at all. How come? If we are all products of our environment, then how come I am not like other middle class people? It just goes to show that some of us are old souls and can transcend our environment.

We also agreed that Buddhism is a great way to cope with pain, but it does not give you life meaning or purpose. Just meditating all the time to find enlightenment isn't a real goal to live for or aspire to.

It looks like we are on the same page on a lot of things. So we are probably kindred spirits in many ways.
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
 
Posts: 23609
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:16 pm

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby Winston » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:25 pm

Falcon wrote this comment in our facebook group:

"William Holic I have to agree with Winston Wu on this one. I have spent a lot of time in Latin America, Southeast Asia, India, UK, and so on, as well as Taiwan, speaking the local languages and dating the local women.

Taiwan is a special case. It feels more like Japan but with a Hokkien (southern China) / Americanized twist to it. It doesn't even compare to China or Thailand in terms of social vibe. The country has great infrastructure and is wonderful for tourists, but the younger locals have a very strange vibe. I can't connect with them."
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
 
Posts: 23609
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:16 pm

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby El_Caudillo » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:54 pm

I was in Hualien yesterday, but with this Typhoon hitting am now back in Taipei. Hualien is surrounded by some truly stunning looking mountains and the port, while industrial, is quite charming. It's a place full of guest houses and tourists and so has a relaxed vibe. I found the young people there a bit more friendly, but it's always different in a place on your first few days. The other thing is it doesn't have nearly the concentration of beautiful women that Taipei has. Am not sure anywhere does? Damn maybe Eastern Europe? You made me laugh Winston with your comment here that they dress super-provocative but aren't looking to flirt. I agree, and I don't think they appreciate looks or attention, in fact do they even notice? Although it's not like the west where you feel criminal for looking. They wear those short shorts to satisfy their own vanity I suppose. I actually don't like it when it shows the butt checks that's too much. I read with interest that Everdread said he got 'soft looks', I see what he means - but I'm never sure if the looks are approving or not.

I think we are actually missing the input of a social guy under 30 here in Taipei...it would be interesting to know such a guy's take on it. I met one young guy of twenty a few weeks ago, he was ABT too, and already in a serious relationship after a few months in country. It'd be interesting to get a guy totally new to Taiwanese culture's take though - I'm not saying he has to be white though.
User avatar
El_Caudillo
Freshman Poster
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby Winston » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:05 pm

El_Caudillo and Rock,

Why don't you write the Taiwanese women on these dating sites:

http://www.pof.com
http://www.okcupid.com
http://www.dateinasia.com

They are English speaking dating sites. So in theory the Taiwanese women on them would be looking for white western men, just like you, right? Have you tried that before? There are a fair share of Taiwanese women on them by the way. You can search their database and see.
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
 
Posts: 23609
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:16 pm

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby El_Caudillo » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:14 pm

When I first got here I used Tinder and actually went out with some quite nice girls. Then a colleague told me about Skout and I met a few women in person from there too, but usually it was a disaster, i.e. they really weren't my type. I sometimes still use that app to practice chatting in Chinese. I've used OK cupid too, but as you've extrapolated yourself at length it is hard to strike up conversations which last with Taiwanese girls - they don't counter with many questions, take ages to answer, disappear for no reason, the goodlooking ones don't answer at all. They say they are keen to meet in person for a coffee when actually they are dead scared to do so. I have other stuff to do with my time. Taiwan is the first time I've ever used online dating and may very well be the last.
User avatar
El_Caudillo
Freshman Poster
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby Winston » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:26 am

From ethan_sg:

"From my limited experience with Taiwanese mainly from my Taiwanese ex and her friends yeah Taiwanese do seem to have a very different vibe from mainland Chinese. They are more Americanized and less down to earth. Having said that I did make a friends with s few good Taiwanese guys in college who were originally from taizhong and Tainan.

From my limited experience with Taiwanese they are definitely less down to earth and not as relaxed as mainland Chinese. @Monkro doesn't know what he's missing lol."
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
 
Posts: 23609
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:16 pm

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby El_Caudillo » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:25 pm

Well I went on another date here in Taiwan and it was actually quite good, but not for the reasons any of you will be helping. The woman was 33 and lives near to Taichung. She took me to a massive Buddhist museum that was pretty good, then we took a look round the famous Sun Moon lake. In chatting with her we both agreed that young people in Taipei suffer from vanity and from wanting to be Western, but not understanding what that really means...and the effect of this is that they don't know their own culture properly. She also told me that the lake, the biggest in Taiwan, was made by the Japanese using Korean slave labour. Seemed incredible, and there is nothing about it on the internet?!

After the lake she took me to her house way out in the countryside surrounded by beetle nut tree plantations. (Those trees look pretty cool). Her mum was well into her Buddhism, wearing white and doing calligraphy. She started to give me a Dharma talk not a lot of which I could understand...but she was also interested in hearing about the history of NZ and Australia so we talked about that too. Then she went back to Buddhism again and so I asked something which a lot of Westerners wonder. How can I stay motivated to do anything while adhering to a religion which teaches you that nothing matters? She told me that Buddhism teaches only to let go of the bad parts within and you should still fulfill your earthly responsibilities. She also said my question was a good one.

These were good people and it was a nice visit but I couldn't help feeling a bit sad. The mother and daughter lived there alone in the countryside; apparently they had paid twice the price they should have for the property. The local people there knew they were city people from Taipei and had cheated them. The father has become a monk and is living in a temple in Taipei. The daughter had worked all over Taiwan and for six months in Australia, but was now facing a life being single and living with her mother. Still educationally it was interesting. I met the girl online, in person I found she wasn't my type romantically.
User avatar
El_Caudillo
Freshman Poster
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby El_Caudillo » Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:54 pm

A few updates on our beloved Taiwanese younger generation. Winston and I saw the world famous in Taiwan Janet Xie at a night market here in Taipei. I will give my impression of her from that brief sighting. Winston has written about her at length, not really about her but what she might be said to represent.

Anyway I saw a athletic looking woman in her thirties surrounded by well-built white guys. It looked like her and the white guys may have been researching for a TV show. Janet had a Discovery channel hat pulled down tight, I guess not to attract too much attention. There was a small crowd and some people politely asking for photos. The white guys seemed to be acting as security as they told the crowd 'OK just one more photo'. Janet seemed to be genuinely friendly. With her tan and musculature I would have definitely picked her out as an ABC than as a local. Through all this Winston seemed starstruck lol. He had bumped into his nemesis.

Back to the younger generation. I've been doing interviews to classify the English level of a number of employees at two local banks over the last two weeks. WOW. A lot of them speak good English. It's weird because I never interact with these well-to-do corporate twenty-year olds in my daily life. I don't think they'd ever bother to speak to me. I speak to service people without a lick of English and friendly oldies. Outside work it's all in Chinese - so it was kind of weird to come across all these young Taiwanese with great English. None of them seemed the type to hang out with foreigners. A bit like the Thai elite I guess, who speak great English, but don't want anything to do with white people. Although these guys aren't the elite, perhaps they are pushing upper middle class. The upper middle class in Indonesia is very Anglophilic but that dies off as you get to the elites. Thoughts?
User avatar
El_Caudillo
Freshman Poster
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: Taiwan, the younger generation

Postby El_Caudillo » Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:11 am

Here is an article about the younger generation in New Zealand. The poster girl is a twenty-four year old vegan female with tattoos. This generation is said not drink smoke or to be into sex. They are busy going to the gym, posting on Instagram and eating paleo-meals. They aren't interested in politics, being controversial or face to face interaction. I still get the idea they worship money i.e. the poster girl here probably spends time on her iPad browsing for her next expensive tattoo. Man bring back the sixties! Although I do think moving away from the binge drinking is a good thing (I wouldn't have said that when I was in my twenties though).

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11719945

Back to Taiwan I was at the hospital today and an old guy started talking to me. He was very forthright and inquisitive. He was curious he for an older Taiwanese guy. Turned out he was born in the mainland and came here at nine years old. The difference in his personality compared with his younger compatriots was like night and day. He had no shield up at all - he told me all about his illness and wanted to know about mine. I could tell people around us were tuning in - reserved Taiwanese mildy interested in the foreigner and the old mainlander talking so freely.
User avatar
El_Caudillo
Freshman Poster
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:39 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Asia, China, Philippines, Thailand

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests