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Tibet discussion

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Tibet discussion

Postby Jackal » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:53 am

I created this thread so people could discuss anything related to Tibet.

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Last edited by Jackal on Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Jackal » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:00 am

(continuing from a previous thread)

momopi wrote:My advice to Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama: find a way to land in Beijing this sumer during the Olympics. Declare "I surrender" in front of dozens of international press, then refuse to leave. Put the ball in PRC's court and watch the leadership panic.


Don't you think the PRC would just throw him prison forever or kill him in private and then tell the world, "Gee, we're not sure where he is." Of course, the rest of the world wouldn't buy it, but I wouldn't put it past the PRC to do something like that.
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Postby momopi » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:25 pm

Jackal wrote:(continuing from a previous thread)

momopi wrote:My advice to Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama: find a way to land in Beijing this sumer during the Olympics. Declare "I surrender" in front of dozens of international press, then refuse to leave. Put the ball in PRC's court and watch the leadership panic.


Don't you think the PRC would just throw him prison forever or kill him in private and then tell the world, "Gee, we're not sure where he is." Of course, the rest of the world wouldn't buy it, but I wouldn't put it past the PRC to do something like that.


Nope. If they wanted him dead, he'd have been killed a long time ago. As long as the person is alive, he/she is fallible. Once they attain martyrdom, they gain immortality.
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Postby Jackal » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:40 pm

Okay, maybe they wouldn't kill him--that would just lead to Tibetan protests on a scale that the PRC would shudder to think about--but don't you think the PRC would just throw him in prison for the rest of his life? I mean, hell, I just saw a news article that said that the Chinese still have at least 60 people imprisoned from the protests in 1989!

http://start.localnet.com/article.php?a ... VJOO0.html
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Postby momopi » Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:16 pm

Jackal wrote:Okay, maybe they wouldn't kill him--that would just lead to Tibetan protests on a scale that the PRC would shudder to think about--but don't you think the PRC would just throw him in prison for the rest of his life? I mean, hell, I just saw a news article that said that the Chinese still have at least 60 people imprisoned from the protests in 1989!

http://start.localnet.com/article.php?a ... VJOO0.html


Sure, look at Aung San Suu Kyi in Burma. The SPDC wanted her to leave many times but she refused. By staying, she makes herself a hot potato to the SPDC, who could've shot her in the head at any time, but know that by doing so they'd immortalize her legacy and make it impossible to subdue.

Take a good look at what position the Tibetan government in exile is in. With warming relations between China and India, plus India's desire for China to recognize their territorial ownership of south Tibet, sooner or later the Indians may see the Tibetans as a liability. Nepal's recent treatment of Tibetan protesters may be a dark omen to what's to come.

The Dalai Lama has done enough to generate PR around the world, he's even got Lashkar-e-Toiba wanting to blown him up for his "pagan Buddhism". He can either bring it to Beijing's doorstep, or wait until his people out-stay their welcome in Dharamsala.
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Postby Jackal » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:39 am

momopi wrote:The Dalai Lama has done enough to generate PR around the world, he's even got Lashkar-e-Toiba wanting to blown him up for his "pagan Buddhism". He can either bring it to Beijing's doorstep, or wait until his people out-stay their welcome in Dharamsala.


Momopi, let me first say that it is not my intention to antagonize you, and I didn't mean any disrespect by asking questions about the Qing dynasty--indeed, they seem like fascinating warriors and I'm glad that I learned more about them.

Now, regarding your quote above, I have to say that pretty much any high enough ranking government or religious official has some group of people that want to kill them, so the fact that some groups are targeting the Dalai Lama is not really unique. Somebody always wants to kill the Pope, for example.

It's true that Tibetan Buddhism has incorported many shamanistic influences from Tibet's native religion Bön and many tantric techniques originating in India along with the more standard Mahayana doctrines of Buddhism. Some Buddhists don't like it and that's fine, just like some Muslims don't like Sufism. However, I would have assumed that all types of Buddhism would seem "pagan" or "heretical" to such a militant group.

While there are many challenges facing the Tibetans, I think there are some reasons to be optimistic:

1) While China still has a lot of progress to make in the area of religious freedom, at least things have improved over the past decades and lately I read that there has been a resurgence of interest in religion by the Chinese people. Any improvement in religious freedom and awareness in China indirectly helps Tibet.

2) The internet and modern communications technologies have made total suppression of information in China impossible. The Chinese people have greater access to information than ever before and when the truth gets out it generally helps Tibet.

3) The continuing struggle of Chinese intellectuals and human rights activists to reform China shows that there are many Chinese people who do not believe the PRC's propanda. Hopefully, some of these people will influence the PRC's government or public opinion over time and make the country somewhat more free.

There was even a new petition signed by Chinese intellectuals recently:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/23/asia/china.php
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Postby Jackal » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:06 am

gordan wrote:I came across this article:

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12585


Well, I skimmed the article. It's nicely written, but I don't agree with all of its logic.

First of all, I am not trying to get people to hate China. I'm only expressing frustration with some of the PRC government's policies regarding Tibet and the PRC's unwillingness to sit down and negotiate with the Dalai Lama. I apologize if some people regard my posts as "anti-Chinese" in a racist way--that is not my intention. I think China is a country with a fascinating history and massive potential. However, many of the PRC's restrictions on freedom of religion and freedom of speech are unethical in my view.

There was a good point in that article discussing the lack of Asian Americans in American politics, and I have nothing against Asians being in Congress or the White House.

And while we're on the subject of different ethnicites, let's not forget the restrictions placed on the Muslim community in China. The Chinese Muslims don't have a well-loved international icon like the Dalai Lama to speak for them, but they should not be forgotten either.

Secondly, the Tibetan Government in Exile is not trying to gain true independence from China because they know it is futile. They just want a legitimate degree of autonomy within the PRC along with 4 other points:

The Dalai Lama's Five Point Peace Plan
1) Transformation of the whole of Tibet into a zone of peace.

2) Abandonment of China's population transfer policy that threatens the very existence of the Tibetans as a people.

3) Respect for the Tibetan people's fundamental human rights and democratic freedoms.

4) Restoration and protection of Tibet's natural environment and the abandonment of China's use of Tibet for the production of nuclear weapons and dumping of nuclear waste.

5) Commencement of earnest negotiations on the future status of Tibet and of relations between the Tibetan and Chinese peoples.

The Strasbourg Proposal (an elaboration of Point 5)
"In his address to members of the European Parliament in Strasbourg on 15 June 1988, His Holiness made another detailed proposal elaborating on the last point of the Five Point Peace Plan. He proposed talks between the Chinese and Tibetans leading to a self-governing democratic political entity for all three provinces of Tibet. This entity would be in association with the People's Republic of China and the Chinese Government would continue to remain responsible for Tibet's foreign policy and defense."

The article you provided the link for mentions the US having colonialist arrogance by telling China what to do. I don't think this is the case because many other countries of the world have expressed concern over the Tibetan issue as well, however any superpower likes to dominate and have its way, I admit.

What strikes me as real colonial arrogance is the abuse of Tibet's natural environment and indigenous people by the Chinese government. The PRC has even been dumping nuclear waste in Tibet. On top of this, the PRC has encouraged thousands upon thousands of Han Chinese to move to Tibet and this is slowly destroying Tibetan culture. Tibetans are becoming a minority and discrimated against in their own country.

Sure, the colonization of the Americas was just as devastating to the indigenous peoples living on the continent, but I think many people hope that the world could avoid repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

So many cultures, ecosystems, and languages have been lost forever due to colonization. Hopefully, humanity can find a way to have economic development without such a negative impact.

I agree that demonizing China is not the solution. All nations are fundamentally interconnected and the solution must come through dialogue.
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Postby DiscoPro_Joe » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:51 pm

Here's several video clips I found on the recent riots in Tibet. Although the Chinese government certainly needs to allow more religious freedom in Tibet, I must clearly side with its government on the recent ruckus there. The tiny minority of violent Tibetan extremists responsible for the carnage should be brought to justice fairly. I also do not believe that the Dalai Lama incited any of the riots, as some in China seem to suspect.


---------------------------------------------------
Good Footage of Tibet Riots (in Mandarin)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYdnkUbzgRU
(A good 2-minute clip. I can pick out a few words in it.)


***Best Footage of Tibet Riots*** (in Cantonese)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YksbHSwcAe8&NR
(An excellent 5-minute clip. If you watch just one of these videos, let it be this one. It's in the Cantonese dialect, so I can't pick out anything said, except for the taxi driver near the end who speaks Mandarin.)


"Tibet Riot, you won't see this on CNN and BBC"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZLzKBvvGMg
(A very sad 40-second clip.)


Tibet riots -15 March 08 (Al-Jazeera English)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfnBVKrzX6Y
(A very good 2-minute clip in English.)


Riot in Tibet: True face of western media
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas
(A 4-minute video that exposes the slanderous reporting of various Western media outlets.)


Riot in Tibet: True face of western media (Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVdx3Qh5Ct8&NR
(An 80-second follow-up. The 2nd half is really funny, because it shows Fox News failing to distinguish between Chinese and Indians! Ha ha!)


"Tibet WAS,IS,and ALWAYS WILL BE a part of China"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo&NR=1
(The 7-minute grand finale to conclude this list of video clips.)
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Postby DiscoPro_Joe » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:58 pm

gordan wrote:I came across this article:

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12585


Great, great article!!! I'll be forwarding it on to several people I know.


Jackal wrote:the PRC has encouraged thousands upon thousands of Han Chinese to move to Tibet and this is slowly destroying Tibetan culture.


Oh, no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted:
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Postby DiscoPro_Joe » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:41 pm

Here's more Tibet Riot videos:

I found a good 4-part video series, each one being about 8 minutes long.

Parts 1 & 3 are basically a recap of what you saw in my previous list of videos, but parts 2 & 4 are a must-see.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
"2008 Tibet Riot, the Truth and Lies" (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROTyGOJ2ZZI
(Shows numerous videos of the riots.)


"2008 Tibet Riot, the Truth and Lies" (Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N8r1I66SA8
(Contrasts the response of police to protesters in China, versus in other countries. A must-see.)


"2008 Tibet Riot, the Truth and Lies" (Part 3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpgmomcxrp4
(Exposes the western media's deceit.)


"2008 Tibet Riot, the Truth and Lies" (Part 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIXoHkUlYNY
(Compares life for Tibetans under the Dalai Lama's regime, versus the Chinese government. Also features clips from Penn & Teller!)
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Postby momopi » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:17 pm

>_>

/me eyes propaganda being tossed in both directions
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Postby Jackal » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:28 am

DiscoPro_Joe wrote:
Jackal wrote:the PRC has encouraged thousands upon thousands of Han Chinese to move to Tibet and this is slowly destroying Tibetan culture.


Oh, no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted:


Well, imagine how you would feel if thousands of Egyptians moved into your hometown, you became a minority in your own town, the majority of the people spoke Arabic, you had a hard time getting a job or education because you weren't an Arab, and you were generally discriminated against for being a non-Arab. No American would take that sitting down--people would be raising hell.

DiscoJoe, if you hate Tibetans and fundamentally don't have any respect for indigenous peoples, then just come out and say it. This doesn't need to be a zero-sum game: China doesn't need to eradicate Tibetan culture in order to control Tibet and profit from it.

And even if you want the Chinese to destroy the Tibetans' culture, you should be against the Chinese polluting in Tibet, dumping nuclear waste there, and destroying the natural environment (the 4th point of the Dalai Lama's peace plan). Even those who don't value humanity should at least value the planet we live on.
Last edited by Jackal on Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby DiscoPro_Joe » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:41 am

Jackal wrote:Well, imagine how you would feel if thousands of Egyptians moved into your hometown, you became a minority in your own town, the majority of the people spoke Arabic, you had a hard time getting a job or education because you weren't an Arab, and you were generally discriminated against for being a non-Arab. No American would take that sitting down--people would be raising hell.


In that situation, if I wanted to stay in my hometown, then I'd first learn Arabic. Then I might open my own bilingual business of some kind that doesn't discriminate (and/or encourage other hometown natives to do the same). Immediately, those particular businesses would gain a competitive edge in the marketplace for being bilingual and not discriminating based on race or nationality. Soon enough, this successful business model would persuade other business owners in town to choose between their prejudice and their pocketbooks.

DiscoJoe, if you hate Tibetans and don't give a damn whether they live or die, then just come out and say it. The Chinese have the whole rest of the country to do what they please with.


I don't hate the Tibetans. I just look down upon the ones who are taking part in the violence, murdering people, and destroying property.

And even if you want the Chinese to destroy the Tibetans' culture, you should be against the Chinese polluting in Tibet, dumping nuclear waste there, and destroying the natural environment.


I think the land should be privatized. Since Tibet is a remote area with very-low land value that's difficult to farm, and has no natural resources, then it might become profitable for nuclear waste disposal companies to own land and operate in parts of Tibet. That is, assuming they take the necessary precautions to prevent polluting other people's property in the process.

Anyway, with all that being said,...........

是中国!!!
Shi Zhongguo!!!
GO CHINA!!!

Click here to hear a cool tune. :wink:
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Postby Jackal » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:14 am

However, China is NOT taking "the necessary safeguards". Here's a summary of the environmental damage that has taken place in Tibet: http://www.tibet.com/WhitePaper/white9.html

If you read this, you will also learn that Tibet, indeed, has lots of natural resources (Amdo's oil fields produce over one million tons of crude oil per year!), and, contrary to the stereotypes, Tibet is 70 percent grassland. The Tibetans have traditionally herded animals on these grasslands.

This is an excerpt on the section about nuclear waste:
"Nuclear and other toxic wastes

China is reported to have stationed approximately 90 nuclear warheads in Tibet. The Ninth Academy, China's North-west Nuclear Weapons Research and Design Academy in Tibet's north-eastern area of Amdo, is reported to have dumped an unknown quantity of radioactive waste on the Tibetan plateau.

According to a report released by International Campaign for Tibet, a Wastington, DC- based organisation:

Waste disposal methods were reported to be casual in the extreme. Initially, waste was put in shallow, unlined landfills ... The nature and quantity of radioactive waste generated by the Ninth Academy is still unknown. ... During the 1960s and 1970s, nuclear waste from the facility was disposed of in a roughshod and haphazard manner. Nuclear waste from the Academy would have taken a variety of forms - liquid slurry, as well as solid and gaseous waste. Liquid or solid waste would have been in adjacent land or water sites. [Nuclear Tibet, Washington, DC, 1993, p.18]

Official Chinese pronouncements have confirmed the existence in Tibet of the biggest uranium reserves in the world. Reports say that uranium is processed in Tibet itself and that many local Tibetans died after drinking contaminated water near a uranium mine in Ngapa, Amdo.

The local Tibetans have also reported the birth of deformed humans and animals. Given the fact that underground water supplies in Amdo have been diminishing at a rapid rate, and useable underground water is very limited (a report estimated underground water reserve at 340 to 4.0 billion cubic feet, He Bochuan, pp.39), radioactive contamination of groundwater is of great concern. Since 1976 uranium has been mined and processed in Thewo and Zorge regions of Kham also.

In 1991, Greenpeace exposed plans to ship toxic municipal sludge from the USA to China for use as "fertilizer" in Tibet. The use of similar toxic waste as fertilizer in the USA has been linked to outbreaks of diseases."
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Postby Jackal » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:24 am

Let me also share the gift of music:

http://encarta.msn.com/media_461535693/ ... nting.html
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