Is Tibet a victim of Chinese aggression/oppression as Western media claims?

[momopi]

The PRC's map of Tibet:
http://www.nepalhiking.com/images/tibet_map.gif

The Tibetan government in exile's map of (Greater) Tibet:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... claims.jpg

The PRC government claims that there's significant deposits of uranium in Gansu province. This is where Gansu province (Tibetan poulation: 2%) is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gansu_CN.png

PLA Second Artillery (nuclear capable) missile forces deployment map:
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/facility/Map-1.jpg

When the Tibetan government in exile is claiming that the PRC is mining uranium and fielding nuclear weapons, their claim is based on the Greater (historic) Tibet from 900AD or the geographic area they call Tibetan Plateau:
http://www.mala.bc.ca/~earles/tibet-uplift-feb03.htm

Which happens to include Tibet TAR, Qinghai, Gansu, Sichuan, and Yunnan. From the PRC's point of view, the 2nd artillery has no fixed bases in Tibet TAR.

There's a known site with 20 sq meter nuclear waste storage in Haibei TAR, which is located in the far NE corner of Qinghai province:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haibei_Tib ... Prefecture

Location of Tanjianshan gold mining operation in Qinghai Province:
http://www.eldoradogold.com/s/C_Tanjianshan.asp

PRC fuel and mineral deposit map:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_e ... els_83.jpg


For the Tibetans to say "you're mining uranium in Tibet" and the Chinese to reply "no it's not in Tibet", would be an utterly stupid exchange since both sides have completely different idea on what the map should look like. For the Tibetans, they almost never show exactly where the uranium or gold mining operations are on the map and just make vague claims, because most people today only consider Tibet TAR (Central Tibet) to be "Tibet".


Also, last time when the PRC government claimed significant petrol deposits in South China Sea, they ended up blowing buckets of money along with Vietnam and Philippines to contest the territory and drilling the seabed. In the end they found very little and formed a joint venture as a face-saving way out. If Gansu really had that much uranium, then they wouldn't have to import from Australia.

Kinda <censored> that Tibetan government in exile wants to use CCPs BS propaganda, but guess they're desperate for anything .


...and DiscoJoe, dude, nobody would argue that Tibet (and China) was a backward feudalistic society a century ago. But parading skeletons from the past doesn't really have much value today. If an independent Tibetan state is ever declared, it'd have 0% chance of recovering "Greater Tibet", and 0% chance of reverting back to a feudalistic theocracy.

[Jackal]

If Gansu really had that much uranium, then they wouldn't have to import from Australia.

While we're speculating, it's been widely rumored that the PRC used most of Tibet's uranium to pay off a huge debt they owed to Russia. If so, the PRC wouldn't have made a such a thing public, and this would explain the PRC needing to import uranium now.

Here's an excerpt of an interview with the Tibetan government-in-exile's prime minister, Samdhong Rinpoche:

"...money and trade is not the totality of life. Humanity needs money. Humanity needs facilities. But humanity needs satisfaction, peace of mind and self-respect. The development of Tibet is not dependent on China. If Tibetans would have been separate from China, Tibet would have developed by much more than what Chinese have done now. That is because we have so many resources. See the huge development of Bhutan and Nepal in last 49 years. If Tibet had remained free, by now it would have been another Singapore.

The authorities of People's Republic of China are taking all the resources of Tibet away. Nothing is being given back. More than 100 gold mines are active and exploited by Chinese authorities. Copper, aluminium and uranium is taken out of Tibet. The PRC was able to pay back a huge loan taken from the USSR due to finds of high quality uranium deposits."

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/mar/19inter1.htm

[Jackal]

"Tibet WAS,IS,and ALWAYS WILL BE a part of China"

Well sadly, the "is" part is correct.

The "was" part is only correct in the sense that the Chinese controlled Tibet for several hundred years (as did the Mongolians). However, if the quote is trying to imply that Tibet was never an independent country, then this is patently false.

Tibet had been an independent kingdom for over a thousand years before the Mongolians arrived. Also, Tibet was a free and independent nation from 1911-1950, and the Chinese violated international law by invading it (unfortunately nobody enforces international law).

The "will be" part is uncertain. Although, I am pessimistic about the future of Tibet given the PRC's past actions, nobody can predict the future. I don't think that anybody 50 years ago would have believed that the Iron Curtain would fall eventually and that countries like Poland and Hungary would be free and independent today.

[momopi]

Here's an excerpt of an interview with the Tibetan government-in-exile's prime minister, Samdhong Rinpoche:

"See the huge development of Bhutan and Nepal in last 49 years. If Tibet had remained free, by now it would have been another Singapore."

If Mr. Tenzin can make such claims with a straight face, it explains why you shouldn't appoint religious leaders with little experience in real statecraft to political positions. But I'll refrain from further bashing, and assume that he's preaching pro-Tibet propaganda.

This will probably be my last post in this thread, I have little patience for those who doom themselves, or waste time debating with Tibet-philes and communist apologists. If anyone doesn't know what a communist apologists is, you can spot them hidden among these recent pro-China rallies:

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/po ... 7027.shtml
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/po ... 7087.shtml
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/po ... 7030.shtml
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/po ... 7190.shtml

For the Han Chinese, Tibet is a nationalist issue, which drives immigrants who live in democracy out to wave flags for a communist dictatorship. Nationalism I can understand. But THIS GUY, is what you'd call a communist apologist:
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/po ... 7128.shtml

==================

If the Tibetan government-in-exile wants a negotiated solution, they need one that the PRC government would accept, even if it means a Singapore or Switzerland sized piece of territory in SAR arrangement to start. They can ask for more later, and if/when the PRC government falls, they can probably get some more and re-negotiate with the new regime.

Failing that, the 150,000 Tibetans in India will continue to live on someone else's fading generosity & on borrowed time.

In closing, I'll quote Henry Kissinger:
"While we should never give up our principles, we must also realize that we cannot maintain our principles unless we survive."

[Jackal]

Momopi,

Well, I've enjoyed having you around. I admit there isn't too much left to say about Tibetan autonomy. It's up to the Tibetan government-in-exile and the PRC to work out a solution. I agree with you that the Tibetans need to find a pragmatic solution so that their culture can survive and not just pass into the history books.

I don't usually get involved with political activism of any kind, but my fascination with Tibetan Buddhism has made me very passionate about the preservation of its birthplace. Many injustices have taken place in Tibet, and I just wanted to make people aware of some of them.

I guess for a white person who looks to Asian culture to find something truly and spectacularly exotic, something mystical and spiritual with no taint of Western materialism upon it, Tibetan culture seems like the pinnacle of this ideal ("The mysteries of the Orient", etc.).

I first became interested in Asian cultures while I was studying martial arts as a boy. I was fascinated with the mystery surrounding the ancient martial arts of Japan and China. However in college, I decided to stop learning Chinese after one semester when the reality of modern China sunk in. From what I read, it seemed like a grotesque, exaggeration of all of America's materialism and greed with little trace of its beautiful, ancient culture left. People shake hands. Most Buddhists there just pray for money at shrines and don't even meditate. Chinese people idolize western movies and pop music. It seemed like the ultimate let down (although I hear that Taiwan has preserved a lot of China's ancient traditions and religions).

I guess to many white people, the Dalai Lama is the "ideal Asian". He's a true spiritual master who can give us something that we can't find at home.

P.S. About the quote about how Tibet might be like Singapore if it had never been invaded by the PRC, I don't necessarily believe it entirely either but I thought it was an interesting point for discussion. The Dalai Lama did not say that. It was the prime minister Samdhong of the government in exile who said that (who the Dalai Lama thinks is more knowledgeble about Tibet and politics than himself).

[DiscoPro_Joe]

I've enjoyed the Tibet discussion, too.

OK...so I was wrong about the physical geography and geology of Tibet. If the Chinese government has been polluting the area as badly as said, then I would definitely be opposed to that environmental policy.

Moving on...those are awesome pictures of the pro-China rally in Toronto, Momopi! That is very inspiring for me to see. Most westerners like to assume that Chinese people living in western countries are there to escape the "clutches of oppressive Chinese communism" in the 21st Century, and those Toronto pictures clearly debunk that myth. And I wouldn't doubt for a single second that any westerner who accuses the pro-China demostrators of being "commie-loving apologists" has ever been to China in the last 10 years. The reality is that 21st-Century China is more capitalist than the West nowadays.

And Jackal, I've totally respected your posts, although we do seem to be quite opposite in our personal cultural tastes. Buddhism has never really inspired me, although I do like many principles of Taoism. I really like contemporary urban Chinese culture, in that it embraces technology, flashy colors, bubbly pop music, capitalism, and individualism, but without the snobbishness, cliquishness, fakery, paranoia, and social isolation that is rampant in the U.S.

[Jackal]

I've enjoyed the Tibet discussion, too.

OK...so I was wrong about the physical geography and geology of Tibet. If the Chinese government has been polluting the area as badly as said, then I would definitely be opposed to that environmental policy.

*shakes DiscoJoe's hand* *gives him a kata (Tibetan white scarf)*


(Now if only negotiating with the PRC were this easy...)

But seriously, if our mini-debate is a microcosm that models the negotiations between Tibet and China, then maybe what the peace talks require is a Momopi-like third party to force both sides to an agreement by a threat to withdraw support or resources of some kind to both sides if they refuse to negotiate (maybe we'll just put Momopi on a plane to Beijing...).

DiscoJoe, if you like Taoism then you might like Zen Buddhism (Ch'an Buddhism in Chinese). Zen was created by the Chinese who took the traditional Indian Buddhism and extracted its essence by looking at it from a uniquely Chinese perspective of elegant simplicity and the observation of nature. Later it arrived in Japan.

Many of your viewpoints are very non-sentimental and Zen is very non-sentimental. After reading about it for years I think its message at its essence is: "Shut up and meditate." And the purpose of this meditation is to reach some level of enlightenment in this life. It can inspire you to see the radiant potential for enlightenment in all sentient beings.

Typical Zen quotes are:

"A day of no working is a day of no eating."

"What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

"Think non-thinking."

If you're interested, read my post:

viewtopic.php?t=373

I talk about the book "The Three Pillars of Zen" which first introduced me to Zen when I was 16. Although now after years of the elegant simplicity of Zen, I relish the intricate complexity of Tibetan Buddhism with its emphasis on compassion and bliss as well as wisdom.

[Winston]

So did Tibet ever really belong to China? Western media says no, but China says yes. What do independent researchers say?

Check out this site China Tibet Online. It has 7 questions for the Dalai Lama and accuses him of spreading lies. What do you think?

http://chinatibet.people.com.cn/96056/6623034.html

[royalism]

So did Tibet ever really belong to China? Western media says no, but China says yes. What do independent researchers say?

Check out this site China Tibet Online. It has 7 questions for the Dalai Lama and accuses him of spreading lies. What do you think?

http://chinatibet.people.com.cn/96056/6623034.html

tibet was part of qing dynasty since the 1600-1700s, these were manchu rulers but it had a chinese culture. also before, tibet annexed some parts near it through military conquest.

china said they emancipated the tibetans from serfdom rule. it was true tibet was a serfdom but i think it is in the same lines as the japanese wanting to rule south east asia by freeing them of colonialism from the west.

the dalai lama its probably working for the cia or at least has ties with cia

[Jackal]

So did Tibet ever really belong to China? Western media says no, but China says yes. What do independent researchers say?

Check out this site China Tibet Online. It has 7 questions for the Dalai Lama and accuses him of spreading lies. What do you think?

http://chinatibet.people.com.cn/96056/6623034.html

"Belong" is a very strong word. China certainly had power over Tibet during certain periods of history, but the Tibetans had a great deal of autonomy and freedom during those times.

The Chinese try to say that they have made everything better in Tibet, but this is not true. Tibetans deeply resent not having religious and cultural freedom. Few things are more important to people than freedom!

[xiongmao]

Not sure if I'll visit Tibet while I'm in China. I'm worried that my lungs wouldn't take it given I've lived my entire life at sea level. I think I'd be to worried about rabid dogs and other problems as well.

Hollywood loves Tibet, but the reality is that the Tibetan rulers weren't that good to their people, certainly no worse than the Chinese.

[Winston]

Wow check out what I found. A new European documentary called "Tibet The Truth" by a European producer that is very pro China. It argues that Tibet and China had peaceful harmonious relations until Western imperialism intervened, when the British Empire tried to create strife and division between them in the 19th Century, and then the American CIA did too in the 20th Century, to try to create friction and conflict in China. After WW2, the US became very anti-China. But during WW2, it was very pro-China, demonstrated in the clip shown in the documentary from the US government documentary series "Why We Fight - The Battle of China" which was amazingly positive and praising of China. This film argues that what you hear about Tibet in the western media are mostly lies, and that China has greatly improved the life of Tibetans in all areas of life, and that they are much better now than before when they were under the slavery and oppression of the Dalai Lama. It's a very different view of Tibet than the one you hear from liberals and the Western media, which has been known to lie a lot.

I just saw it and it's pretty mind blowing and informative. Here it is below. What do you all think? Is it accurate and true?



To hear the Western media's version of Tibet and how it's oppressed by Chinese aggression, etc here is a documentary called "Tibet Cry of the Snow Lion" so you can hear from the other side too.



@momopi , @Jackal , @DiscoPro_Joe , @Bao3niang , @zboy1 , @ethan_sg , @xiongmao , what do you guys think? Which side is telling the truth? What is fact and what is fiction?

Regardless, it's hypocritical for Westerners to be crying "free Tibet" when their own government conquers and oppresses lands too. Why don't they cry "free Hawaii" too since the US government seized Hawaii by force and annexed it against the wishes of the Hawaiians? Too many double standards here.

[Winston]

Michael Parenti exposes the truth about Tibet.



Description:

*** My words ***: Free Tibet!, wait, wait a moment please. Do you know the history of Tibet?

It was a utopian Shangri-La for Dalai Lama and his followers. Yes, a Shangri-La(theocracy and feudalism) built upon serfs' blood and flesh! The slaves or serfs were more poverty and less human rights(actually no any human right!) than other Chinese outside Tibet.

Here presented is an interview with an American famous scholar Michael Parenti.

Dalai Lama can represent anything but Freedom, Human Rights and Democracy! Please don't muddy these 3 words. He is worshiped by less than 20% Tibetans world wide, his followers are less than 10%， and he has no right to represent Tibetans. Separation religion from politics is the basic principle of modern democracy. If "Free Tibet" hypers don't know this, that is pathetic.

I also want to tell you so called Chinese communist army's "occupation" of Tibet in 1951. That Chinese communist army entered Tibet in 1951 actually was based on the agreement between the central government of P. R. China and the representatives of Tibet local government, which consisted of Dalai Lama, Banchan Lama and other Big Monks (similar to Bishops) of Tibet. This set the milestone that communist Chinese government officially took over control of Tibet from the defeated former Chinese government(Republic of China), which retreated to Taiwan in 1949, in the civil war. China has owned sovereignty of Tibet for more than 700 years. Actually the first Dalai Lama was installed by Chinese government!

Before 1956 Dalai Lama kept very good relationship with Chinese communists, especially Mao(the founder of communist China). He was elected as the vice chairman of the (Chinese) National People's Congress Standing Committee, and wrote an "Ode to Chairman Mao" in Tibetan poem in 1955. In the poem he appraised Chairman Mao like "the sun, who protects Tibetans, ... break down the shackles, ..., I wish the great leader like a torch will shine forever". Please watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maFVNX70WQg
English subtitle provided on the right side.

After 1956 Chinese government decided to completely abolish feudalism and theocracy in Tibet, Dalai Lama and his armed followers rebelled.

Do you think this kind of brutal and cruel social system shouldn't be abolished by Chinese government merely because she was "RED"? I wish all of us can make our judgments based on the basic conscience as human being instead of stupid ideology.

[Yohan]

Tibet does not belong to China, it is occupied territory after an armed invasion.

China is claiming even Arunachal Pradesh, which it considers as a part of China and calls it 'South Tibet'.
Never any Chinese were living there and India is totally unwilling to give this large piece of land to China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arunachal_Pradesh

China is claiming land and sea territory from almost all its neighbors without any reasonable argument and you cannot trust its politicians.
The only way to stop this theft is only with military force.

China is not ashamed to claim even land from tiny Bhutan, but it is not so easy to take land away from India.

[Winston]

Tibet does not belong to China, it is occupied territory after an armed invasion.

China is claiming even Arunachal Pradesh, which it considers as a part of China and calls it 'South Tibet'.
Never any Chinese were living there and India is totally unwilling to give this large piece of land to China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arunachal_Pradesh

China is claiming land and sea territory from almost all its neighbors without any reasonable argument and you cannot trust its politicians.
The only way to stop this theft is only with military force.

China is not ashamed to claim even land from tiny Bhutan, but it is not so easy to take land away from India.

How does Tibet not belong to China? When was Tibet ever independent? I don't see any historical proof that Tibet was ever its own sovereign nation. Not even the UN recognizes Tibet as an independent nation.