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Reason Why The Chinese Created Confucianism and other Philos

Discuss culture, living, traveling, relocating, dating or anything related to the Asian countries - China, The Philippines, Thailand, etc.

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Reason Why The Chinese Created Confucianism and other Philos

Postby globetrotter » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:14 am

...Philosophies of life.

Having lived here for 5 months I have noticed one thing:

That absent societal control a group of Chinese kids will revert to really bad, anti-social behaviour. Put a Chinese authority figure in the room and they behave and don't act out. Put just me in the room and the worst kids revert to terrible behaviour. I see similar behaviour while driving. There is no right of way, everyone is in the right. If you see an accident, it is always a case of each attempting to justify themselves. There is no abstract sense of right and wrong.

Consider Confucianism by Master Kong Tse. Why would someone create a philosophy that emphasised kindness and loyalty to ones parents, unless the current society lacked those values?

I believe, but have no proof, that the reason for that philosophy and the others of ancient China is that the Chinese people began to behave so abhorrantly that some controlling meme was needed to further civilisation. There is a undercurrent of really shady, violent uncivilised behaviour that runs deeply through this culture. How else to explain a normal businessman spiking kids milk with melamine, or cutting corners to the point that his product kills it buyers, or putting antifreeze into toothpaste or lead into toys? These guys are not monsters they are your average Chinese businessman who without constraints will engage in the least common denominator behaviour.

This country needs such philosophies to keep the people in line or else they will revert.
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Re: Reason Why The Chinese Created Confucianism and other Ph

Postby Nate » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:29 am

globetrotter wrote:...Philosophies of life.

Having lived here for 5 months I have noticed one thing:

That absent societal control a group of Chinese kids will revert to really bad, anti-social behaviour. Put a Chinese authority figure in the room and they behave and don't act out. Put just me in the room and the worst kids revert to terrible behaviour. I see similar behaviour while driving. There is no right of way, everyone is in the right. If you see an accident, it is always a case of each attempting to justify themselves. There is no abstract sense of right and wrong.

Consider Confucianism by Master Kong Tse. Why would someone create a philosophy that emphasised kindness and loyalty to ones parents, unless the current society lacked those values?

I believe, but have no proof, that the reason for that philosophy and the others of ancient China is that the Chinese people began to behave so abhorrantly that some controlling meme was needed to further civilisation. There is a undercurrent of really shady, violent uncivilised behaviour that runs deeply through this culture. How else to explain a normal businessman spiking kids milk with melamine, or cutting corners to the point that his product kills it buyers, or putting antifreeze into toothpaste or lead into toys? These guys are not monsters they are your average Chinese businessman who without constraints will engage in the least common denominator behaviour.

This country needs such philosophies to keep the people in line or else they will revert.




You are most likely quite right...the cultural revolution is something the Chinese did to themselves...horrific...on a scale Americans will never contemplate....
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Postby Enishi » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:51 pm

This is one reason why I think liberal/cultural marxist attempts to destroy all those "repressive conservative values" tend to backfire. People point to small forager/hunter tribes and say "look, they aren't repressive, we can be that way too". However, getting to that point isnt really something you can design, it has to grow organically from the ground up with people choosing kindness. Unless people are already extremely psychologically balanced, removing the social barriers which obstruct bad behavior can be disastrous.
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Postby momopi » Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:37 pm

Confucian philisophy is merely one of many that developed in China's history. About 2,500 years ago during the "Spring and Autumn period", it was said that 100 different schools of philosophers and their students competed for influence. A brief:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Schools_of_Thought


Prior to this, during China's early Shang dynasty period (1600 BC), the society could be compared to classical Mesoamerican civilizations. It was well developed enough to have urban cities, and the warriors would go to war with neighboring tribes to capture slaves, which in turn are sacrificed in human sacrifice rituals. Here's a brief:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... -tomb.html

Let's say if you're a wealthy person during the Shang Dynasty period, and you had a new house built. To celebrate the construction of your new home, you'd purchase some slaves and have them killed and buried at the corner of your new house. They could be beheaded, burned alive, drowned, etc. These human sacrifices continued to Zhou dynasty (1045 BC), and gradually fell out of fashion from the end of Spring & Autumn period (770 BC to 476 BC.). By Qin Dynasty (221 BC) the pratice of human sacrifices were made illegal (except for the Emperor himself).

Quoting from the article:
"The Chinese premodern state was built upon sacrifice," said Plutschow, "and no theory of Chinese statehood could ever be proposed without reference to sacrifice and sacrificial ideology."


Then came Confucius and his peers, who spoke against the practice of human sacrifice. He wasn't necessarily successful during his life time, but the impact of his teachings and that of his peers continued to denounce human sacrifice and made it unpopular over the follow 300 years, until it was banned by the State of Qin.

It's not politically correct to compare early Chinese civilization to the Aztecs, but history is what it is. If human sacrifice is used as a yard stick for civilization's development, the Chinese passed that point over 2,000 years ago.

Oh and westerners have been visiting and moving to China and hooking up with local women from over 1,400 years ago:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... a-dna.html

LoL.
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Postby globetrotter » Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:34 pm

To truly appreciate what the Chinese look like you have to come here and travel around. For being basically one phenotype -'The Han' and 'Mongols' - they sure have a great deal of diversity. I have seen everything from people who look just like Native Americans like Apaches, to women that could pass for Mexican, to people that resemble some blacks back in the states. In Mexico the upper class girls look almost Asian - super slight and slim in appearance, strong Asian facial features, light skin.

There is one thing in most of the world that the USA has that others do not.

Samaritanism.

If you get in trouble people in other countries will studiously avoid helping you out in fear of their lives. No one will jump in if you are in a fight, mugged, robbed, hit and run, auto accident, you name it.

China is no different than Mexico in that regard.
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Postby The_Adventurer » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:37 am

I can understand what you mean about the removal of authority. I met a girl from Hunan who seems to be away from parental control for the first time, for school, and she seems to be leaning towards the wld side. She even specifically said she is different without her mother constantly looking over he shoulder.

What part of the US did you live in that has Samaritanism? In LA you coul dget shot or stabbed in the street and people would keep walking by like it never happened. You might be lucky and someone will cal 911 while quickly avoiding you.

I've seen far more samaratanism in other countries, at least locals for locals. Maybe they won't jump in and help a foreigner, but I've seen people give the shirt off their back to help others of their own.
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Postby Repatriate » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:07 am

globetrotter wrote:There is one thing in most of the world that the USA has that others do not.

Samaritanism.

Have you by chance heard of Kitty Genovese? There are several high profile researched incidents where Americans don't give a crap. Samaritanism definitely isn't a typical U.S. trait. I also might add that if you're the "wrong" race it's even less likely that people will help you at all.
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Postby momopi » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:43 am

Quoting Monty Python, and now for something completely different:


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSPtz7wVDHI[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6kJnduB4L4&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzzD6SAco7g&feature=related[/youtube]


I'm dialed in on a phone conference with China factory and bored out of my mind. ;p

Thank Bacchus for the mute button!
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Postby MrPeabody » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:23 pm

I use to be cynical about all societal controls because of the massive abuses perpetrated by organized religion. But as I get older, I realize that the reality is that most people need rules imposed on them because they don’t have a sufficiently developed internal conscience to act decently without them, so we are probably better off with religion then without it. One of the most brilliant minds that ever walked the earth – Thomas Jefferson – expressed in private letters that he didn’t believe in the core beliefs of Christianity (e.g., that Jesus is God), but publically he donated money to churches spreading those same beliefs because he believed a moral education was necessary to have a healthy society. That is how at least one intelligent man handled the situation.
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Postby globetrotter » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:23 pm

Repatriate wrote:
globetrotter wrote:There is one thing in most of the world that the USA has that others do not.

Samaritanism.

Have you by chance heard of Kitty Genovese? There are several high profile researched incidents where Americans don't give a crap. Samaritanism definitely isn't a typical U.S. trait. I also might add that if you're the "wrong" race it's even less likely that people will help you at all.


Quoting one of a literal handful of famous outlier examples to disprove a general society wide trend is not sufficient. I am rapidly growing weary of the lack of intellectualism on the internet. My ability to suffer fools is rapidly diminishing to zero. Samaritanism is indeed a typical US trait, even in places like NYC or L.A. Is it practiced by everyone, on every occasion, 100% of the time? No - don't be a brick.

In the USA if you get in an accident people will race into the intersection to help, generally speaking.

In most other countries, you f***ed up and they watch you suffer, generally speaking. No one wants to get involved, ever. You need to call for help, you need to handle it, and you better have the money to deal with it.
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Postby Repatriate » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:53 am

globetrotter wrote:
Repatriate wrote:
globetrotter wrote:There is one thing in most of the world that the USA has that others do not.

Samaritanism.

Have you by chance heard of Kitty Genovese? There are several high profile researched incidents where Americans don't give a crap. Samaritanism definitely isn't a typical U.S. trait. I also might add that if you're the "wrong" race it's even less likely that people will help you at all.


Quoting one of a literal handful of famous outlier examples to disprove a general society wide trend is not sufficient. I am rapidly growing weary of the lack of intellectualism on the internet. My ability to suffer fools is rapidly diminishing to zero. Samaritanism is indeed a typical US trait, even in places like NYC or L.A. Is it practiced by everyone, on every occasion, 100% of the time? No - don't be a brick.

Don't be a rude jackass just because someone's opinion differs from you. From my experiences and others I know people in major metropolitan areas in the U.S. avoid getting involved whenever possible. If there's a bad car accident they'll call the cops but in most cases they'll rubber neck as they go by. Also, there was a situation just recently in NY where a guy was stabbed and lay bleeding to death in the street. There was even a street camera that showed different people walking by seeing the blood but continuing on their way afterwards anyways.
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Postby globetrotter » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:09 pm

The fact that you cite NYC or large metropolitan areas as the main examples of non-Samaritan does not refute the fact that for most Americans, in most of America, Samaritanism is a long-held quality.

I have seen this myself on a highway in AZ when some woman was on her cell and rolled her suv and I and 20 others righted it and helped until paramedics called.

New York is 469 square miles, and both of the incidents you cite occurred within 1 mile of each other (Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax and Kitty Genovese's murders both occurred within one mile of each other in Queens - not exactly representative of the entire nation) and was never representative of what America is about.

Your own examples are literally blocks apart from each other.

Even in L.A. I see people stop to help after bad traffic accidents.
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