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Taiwan is Boring, Repressed, Loveless, etc.

Discuss culture, living, traveling, relocating, dating or anything related to the Asian countries - China, The Philippines, Thailand, etc.

Moderators: jamesbond, fschmidt

Postby Winston » Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:57 pm

Repatriate,
One more question:

Rock is not a trendy hipster type either. He is down to earth, intelligent and a straightforward person with no fakery. So how does he do well? Cause he is tall and white?

Aren't white people held to a different standard in TW like I suspect? An Asian is expected to act and behave a certain way, but a white person isn't right? He just scoops up the females with white fetishes, and that's it. No need for them to be hip or trendy, right?

And what about Momopi? What is the key to his success in Taiwan? He is not exactly a trendy hipster type either. He says he is a D&D/Anime type of geek.

Is it just cause he has a Taiwanese mindset in that he is a conformist who only values practical things, which is typical of Taiwanese? And that his social circles consist of professionals?
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Postby Repatriate » Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:58 pm

Winston wrote:You say that once you're "plugged in" it's effortless.

How do you plug in? Do you have to get invited?

Find a network of people you can hang out with like co-workers etc.. branch out from there. Meet people in cafes and/or other social gatherings naturally. Branch out even further. Contact or be contacted by those people to go socialize at different popular venues. It snowballs from there. Be socially active? Find like minded pleasant people who are accepting of your views?

You could always go the facebook route and try to find women who would like to meet up before you go to Taiwan too.

Here's the thing I was fooling around on the MSN personals a few years back and I met a few TW girls _WITHOUT EVEN TRYING_ while I was in Thailand of all places. In fact i'm sure some girls even actively do searches for ABCs because I thought it was very easy. They wanted me to meet up with them if I was in Taipei but I never went to Taiwan long enough to take them up on that.

It's not that hard Winston.

If so, and Taiwan is a dating/social paradise, then how come no one will show me this paradise that they talk about? I've offered Taiwan bloggers money to show me where the open girls are, but they make excuses.

It's more understated. There's clubs etc.. where people have fun but you just have to network in. I do get the impression though that a lot of expats often blow smoke about the kind of girls they are getting with. I am in Thailand where it's supposed to be drop dead easy and like I said before I rarely..and I mean _rarely_ see a westerner with an attractive Thai. It's mostly dark skinned farmer types..while there is nothing wrong with that they are the type that's considered plentiful and unattractive by mainstream Thai society.

If you were in Taiwan right now, would you also make excuses about why you can't show me where these "open people and women" are?

No, because if I was in Taiwan i'd be busy hanging out meeting people and establishing a network of friends. That's such an awkward hypothetical question to begin with...
Would you say that Taiwan is easier to plug in and break into cliques than America? If so, in what way? Both countries are cliquish. And cliquish countries are HARD to break in. It's not natural or easy, and doesn't flow naturally. So how can it be easy for everyone you know in Taiwan to meet people, yet f***ing impossible for me?

A few ways that it's easier..

1) there's no race penalty for ABCs at least. In America it's automatically harder to join into certain groups if you're the wrong skin color
2) Religiosity is kept to a minimum
3) People even tend to like ABCs despite your own experiences.
4) Once you have a social network it's pretty hard to fall out with them. I think "cliques" in America are far more superficial with lots of social politics.

Finally, how can Thais be like Orientals? Thailand is in SE Asia and everyone says SE Asia is more open and relaxed. Right? Plus darker skinned Asians tend to be more open and less snotty, for some reason.

Thais are a bit of a contradiction at times. They can be super friendly and sociable to strangers but also very very conservative. There's a reputation for Thailand for girls being "easy" but really it's pretty false if you're dating normal women of a high standard. You'll reach the same sort of conservative culture that's similar to Taiwan at times.

Also, Thais are not all dark skinned..there's a big mix here dating from over a thousand years ago. You'll find Thais who look identical to NE asian girls.
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Postby Repatriate » Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:21 pm

Winston wrote:Repatriate,
One more question:

Rock is not a trendy hipster type either. He is down to earth, intelligent and a straightforward person with no fakery. So how does he do well? Cause he is tall and white?

Aren't white people held to a different standard in TW like I suspect? An Asian is expected to act and behave a certain way, but a white person isn't right? He just scoops up the females with white fetishes, and that's it. No need for them to be hip or trendy, right?

Foreigners are held to a different standard only in the most trivial ways. I won't deny there is a subset of party girl types in every asian country that hang out at foreign clubs. These are "borderline" slappers and I think even Rock said that one of the guys who did well with the ladies in TW was good at picking up these types.

I'm referring more to the regular women who aren't party girl types or foreigner hunting. The party types and foreigner groupies are the minority. I'm talking about the majority in Taiwan where you'll find the best quality IMO. I think even Ladislav says that it's very beneficial to be able to plug into this majority set in the Phillipines even because you find lots of great women there.

And what about Momopi? What is the key to his success in Taiwan? He is not exactly a trendy hipster type either. He says he is a D&D/Anime type of geek.

I'm pretty sure Momopi has mentioned networking before and he seems to be pretty knowledgeable on the social etiquette in Taiwan. Nerdy and hip isn't mutually exclusive in Asia.
Is it just cause he has a Taiwanese mindset in that he is a conformist who only values practical things, which is typical of Taiwanese? And that his social circles consist of professionals?

You don't have to be conformist to be sociable. You only have to get your foot in the door and be thought of as a pleasant person to be around. There are a myriad of ways to do this. It's just social skills. Matter of fact part of being sociable is acceptance of others while bringing something to the table that's new and interesting.
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Postby Winston » Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:37 pm

Repatriate wrote:Find a network of people you can hang out with like co-workers etc.. branch out from there. Meet people in cafes and/or other social gatherings naturally. Branch out even further. Contact or be contacted by those people to go socialize at different popular venues. It snowballs from there. Be socially active? Find like minded pleasant people who are accepting of your views?

You could always go the facebook route and try to find women who would like to meet up before you go to Taiwan too.

Here's the thing I was fooling around on the MSN personals a few years back and I met a few TW girls _WITHOUT EVEN TRYING_ while I was in Thailand of all places. In fact i'm sure some girls even actively do searches for ABCs because I thought it was very easy. They wanted me to meet up with them if I was in Taipei but I never went to Taiwan long enough to take them up on that.

It's not that hard Winston.


It is if they don't like you or your personality and Taiwanese are like oil and water...

I am a very competent person. If it wasn't hard, I'd be doing it long ago.

But anyway, it seems like you only meet people through cliques there. You can't cold approach a girl or see a girl you like pass by and get her to stop and talk to you and agree to go out with you, right?

Every guy I've challenged to do that has chickened out cause he felt it was not appropriate.

If I paid you, would you be willing to cold approach TW girls with a hidden cam, and show me how easy it is? No one has done that.

Rock told me that it is possible to cold approach girls in Taiwan the way I did in Russia. I'd pay money to see that. I don't think TW girls and Russian girls are alike at all. So I don't know why he said that. That's like saying that Hitler and Mother Theresa have similar personalities. It just makes no sense and conflicts with direct observation.

I showed my cousin's son my videos in Russia on YouTube, and he told me in Taiwanese "There's NO WAY you could find girls that wild and open in Taiwan".

So how come Rock thinks you can? No way. There is no denying that Russian girls act totally different than Taiwanese.

Why deny that? Is truth becoming a taboo here in this forum too? lol
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Postby Winston » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:10 pm

Repatriate wrote:
If you were in Taiwan right now, would you also make excuses about why you can't show me where these "open people and women" are?

No, because if I was in Taiwan i'd be busy hanging out meeting people and establishing a network of friends. That's such an awkward hypothetical question to begin with...


You misunderstood me. What I was getting at was, if Taiwan is such an easy socially open country, like Latin America and Russia are, then WHY can't you introduce me to people or give me some contacts to hang out with or hook up with?

Remember in Yatterman's thread where he complained that all Filipinas he met wanted money from him? Then I gave him the emails of three Filipinas who would not ask him for money? Well that was a case of me putting my money where my mouth is. I didn't just talk. I proved my point to him, and gave him contact numbers of REAL people that would prove his assertion wrong.

So if I'm wrong, why can't you do the same for me like I did for Yatterman???

How come everyone is all talk and no action??? Why am I the only one that's REAL and full of ACTION and able to put my money where my mouth is?! Why? Why can't everyone be as genuine as me?! Why God? (looking up)

Btw, I have talked to a few TW girls on Facebook and MSN. Only one from Couchsurfing became friends with me, but she is living in Australia now.

The rest, well I couldn't hold any decent conversation with them. They didn't have much to talk about. All they knew was their job and simple things. What was there to build a conversation on? I could hold it for a while by asking open ended questions, but eventually we ran out of things to talk about.

I have a much easier time holding conversations with American girls. As long as they don't see me, they are more conversant and talk in the same style as me, and same assertiveness. As long as they are willing to talk, you can just ask them open ended questions and get them to open up.

Even with Russian girls, I can hold conversations easily. They love to communicate and so the language barrier didn't matter.

But not the case with TW women. After a while, there just isn't much to talk about.

What am I doing wrong?

Is there a logical solution to my "wavelength difference" with them?

Momopi chats with TW girls a lot. Maybe he can advise. However, he is interested in cooking, so he has more interests in common with TW women. He is also a natural conformist (for sure) and so are they, so he obviously would vibe more easily with them. But beside cooking, I wonder what else he talks to them about.
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

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Postby Rock » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:24 pm

Wow, this thread is getting out of hand. I've skimmed through the last couple pages of exchanges and will just throw out a few off the cuff thoughts. I may return at a later time to give a more thorough response.

- I agree that a lot of white guys have very bad taste (according to my own standards). Here in Thailand, its really in your face. Young decent looking guys in Banglamphoo hanging out with nasty looking dark girls from the sticks of Issan. But, I do see some with quality too. Sometimes, I see these guys with innocent looking stunners from Chula or Bangkok U around the malls. And today, I met, through a mutual friend, a mixed (half German half Thai) 24 year old photo model chick who frequently hooks up with young farang and is currently with a big Aussie dude. As with many Luk Kreung, she was quite stunning in person as well as in the photos she showed me. In Taiwan too, some of the white guys choose gals who are not very impressive according to my own taste. But I have seen some real hotties with black guys. But hey, my taste is different too. The Taiwanese girls I like the most physically would probably be considered very attractive facially but somewhat overweight by the majority of local Taiwan guys.

- Good thing about Thai for someone like you Winston is that you can find a wide variety, spec wise, of low cost P4P in places like Pattaya while you slowly build-up your local language and social skills and hopefully succeed in moving into more mainstream Thai circles. I believe for many Thais, your Chinese appearance brings you closer to them than regular whites/blacks/arabs/etc. In fact, I've heard very often that Thais absolutely hate Indians (there is a large disporia here) and lump a lot of middle easterners in with them. If you do partak in P4P, you really should be very discreet abut it if you wanna hang in respectable circles. Do it the way Thai guys do, not typical foreigners. If you act like many white farang parading their rental girls around town, you will may find yourself shunned by polite society once the word gets around.

- Taiwan is a dating paradise for some. For others, its a dating hell, no better than the States. First thing I wanna make clear. I believe its a younger man's country. The average Joes I refer to tend to be white beta male types in the 25-35 year old range. A lot of Taiwan gals wanna try-out white guys. But of these, many do not intend to get serious. In fact, they often have local boyfriends. Of course, once things get going, its hard to control feelings (I've got a related story about my tenant which will come out in the interview highlights I post). Winston, no matter how western you feel, you are not a white guy so you do not appeal to these types. As for the gals who want ABCs, I understand they are quite picky about height, looks, dress, etc. So you fall out of their spec range too.

- If you asked some black Americans, they might tell you that Iceland is a sexual paradise with all kinds of blond girls offering up their b***y for short term no strings attached fun. But for average Joe whities, it would be a sexual dessert. So the formula depends on both the person and place. Its not like any guy can do well in a given country.

- When I get back to Taiwan, I will discuss some of your questions w/my girlfriend and friend in Spain and post their feedback. I will also ask for their honest opinion about your appearance if you want me to (let me know).

- If I were you but unattached, I would give-up on Taiwan and focus on areas where I might be considered the most attractive as a prospective mate. Here's a few guesses:
BEST: Phils, 2nd and 3rd tier urban China, Vietnam, certain parts of Lat Am. I would add Thai for shorter term relationships.
WORST: Fully developed East Asia, Mongolia, developed English speaking world.
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Postby Rock » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:49 pm

Winston wrote:
Repatriate wrote:Find a network of people you can hang out with like co-workers etc.. branch out from there. Meet people in cafes and/or other social gatherings naturally. Branch out even further. Contact or be contacted by those people to go socialize at different popular venues. It snowballs from there. Be socially active? Find like minded pleasant people who are accepting of your views?

You could always go the facebook route and try to find women who would like to meet up before you go to Taiwan too.

Here's the thing I was fooling around on the MSN personals a few years back and I met a few TW girls _WITHOUT EVEN TRYING_ while I was in Thailand of all places. In fact i'm sure some girls even actively do searches for ABCs because I thought it was very easy. They wanted me to meet up with them if I was in Taipei but I never went to Taiwan long enough to take them up on that.

It's not that hard Winston.


It is if they don't like you or your personality and Taiwanese are like oil and water...

I am a very competent person. If it wasn't hard, I'd be doing it long ago.

But anyway, it seems like you only meet people through cliques there. You can't cold approach a girl or see a girl you like pass by and get her to stop and talk to you and agree to go out with you, right?

Every guy I've challenged to do that has chickened out cause he felt it was not appropriate.

If I paid you, would you be willing to cold approach TW girls with a hidden cam, and show me how easy it is? No one has done that.

Rock told me that it is possible to cold approach girls in Taiwan the way I did in Russia. I'd pay money to see that. I don't think TW girls and Russian girls are alike at all. So I don't know why he said that. That's like saying that Hitler and Mother Theresa have similar personalities. It just makes no sense and conflicts with direct observation.

I showed my cousin's son my videos in Russia on YouTube, and he told me in Taiwanese "There's NO WAY you could find girls that wild and open in Taiwan".

So how come Rock thinks you can? No way. There is no denying that Russian girls act totally different than Taiwanese.

Why deny that? Is truth becoming a taboo here in this forum too? lol


Winston

With all due respect, I believe most of those Russians (w a couple exceptions) just played you for some easy fun at best. I just don't understand how you can crave this type of fake relationships.
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Postby Repatriate » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:01 pm

Rock wrote:- I agree that a lot of white guys have very bad taste (according to my own standards). Here in Thailand, its really in your face. Young decent looking guys in Banglamphoo hanging out with nasty looking dark girls from the sticks of Issan. But, I do see some with quality too. Sometimes, I see these guys with innocent looking stunners from Chula or Bangkok U around the malls. And today, I met, through a mutual friend, a mixed (half German half Thai) 24 year old photo model chick who frequently hooks up with young farang and is currently with a big Aussie dude. As with many Luk Kreung, she was quite stunning in person as well as in the photos she showed me. In Taiwan too, some of the white guys choose gals who are not very impressive according to my own taste.

I dated a half Thai/Half Aussie (ironically) and most Luk Kreung (half asians) end up in relationships with Thais. This is almost universally true because it's become a cliche' amongst social circles here. I find myself stunned at some of the choices made by westerners though. I do think a lot of attraction is racial. What "white" guys find attractive isn't necessarily what asian men find attractive although some women are universally attractive but they are extremely rare.


But I have seen some real hotties with black guys. But hey, my taste is different too. The Taiwanese girls I like the most physically would probably be considered very attractive facially but somewhat overweight by the majority of local Taiwan guys.

I am close friends with a black guy from Chicago who spent a bit over a year in BKK. He actually didn't have a problem with a lot of girls. I saw him pull very attractive Thai women before. A lot of women were just surprised at his outgoing nature and the fact he wasn't a Nigerian. The fact of the matter is if you're different from the norm in a charming way it's a good thing. If you're "strange" in their eyes it's a huge minus. He had all the right attributes.
- Good thing about Thai for someone like you Winston is that you can find a wide variety, spec wise, of low cost P4P in places like Pattaya while you slowly build-up your local language and social skills and hopefully succeed in moving into more mainstream Thai circles. I believe for many Thais, your Chinese appearance brings you closer to them than regular whites/blacks/arabs/etc.

In fact, I've heard very often that Thais absolutely hate Indians (there is a large disporia here) and lump a lot of middle easterners in with them.

False. I know quite a few 20 something Thai-Indians who do really well in dating. They are with hi-so Thai-Chinese girls who are very attractive by any measure. It's all about culture and social skills like I said before.

If you do partak in P4P, you really should be very discreet abut it if you wanna hang in respectable circles. Do it the way Thai guys do, not typical foreigners. If you act like many white farang parading their rental girls around town, you will may find yourself shunned by polite society once the word gets around.

Gentleman clubs on the other hand are accepted by "polite society" Thais and especially if you're invited by the boss :).
Winston, no matter how western you feel, you are not a white guy so you do not appeal to these types. As for the gals who want ABCs, I understand they are quite picky about height, looks, dress, etc. So you fall out of their spec range too.

I actually agree with this. The "groupies" I mentioned before are present in every asian country and are there to service white guys. Women who want ABC's aren't that picky actually, you just have to fit into their mold. You have to be hip locally but foreign privately. There's a huge set of women to choose from here. I tapped into it in Thailand and it's pretty amazing. ABC's are considered defacto "Thai" in a lot of ways. You get a ton of benefits with upper-middle class Thai girls.
- If you asked some black Americans, they might tell you that Iceland is a sexual paradse with all kinds of blond girls offering up their b***y for short term no strings attached fun. But for average Joe whities, it would be a sexual dessert. So the formula depends on both the person and place. Its not like any guy can do well in a given country.

Most black guys hilariously mention Australia and Canada as their b***y paradise. Runner up? Germany.

- If I were you but unattached, I would give-up on Taiwan and focus on areas where I might be considered the most attractive as a prospective mate. Here's a few guesses:
BEST: Phils, 2nd and 3rd tier urban China, Vietnam, certain parts of Lat Am. I would add Thai for shorter term relationships.
WORST: Fully developed East Asia, Mongolia, developed English speaking world.



I think Winston would do better in Vietnam than China. That sounds weird but Vietnam has a strange tolerance for outrageous personalities. I think most Thai women would think he's weird though. He might also want to try Indonesia just for shits and giggles. It's a muslim country but it's so unorthodox in many ways that a strange Chinese looking guy might have good success there.
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Postby Rock » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:25 pm

Repatriate wrote:
Winston wrote:Repatriate,
One more question:

Rock is not a trendy hipster type either. He is down to earth, intelligent and a straightforward person with no fakery. So how does he do well? Cause he is tall and white?

Aren't white people held to a different standard in TW like I suspect? An Asian is expected to act and behave a certain way, but a white person isn't right? He just scoops up the females with white fetishes, and that's it. No need for them to be hip or trendy, right?

Foreigners are held to a different standard only in the most trivial ways. I won't deny there is a subset of party girl types in every asian country that hang out at foreign clubs. These are "borderline" slappers and I think even Rock said that one of the guys who did well with the ladies in TW was good at picking up these types.

I'm referring more to the regular women who aren't party girl types or foreigner hunting. The party types and foreigner groupies are the minority. I'm talking about the majority in Taiwan where you'll find the best quality IMO. I think even Ladislav says that it's very beneficial to be able to plug into this majority set in the Phillipines even because you find lots of great women there.

And what about Momopi? What is the key to his success in Taiwan? He is not exactly a trendy hipster type either. He says he is a D&D/Anime type of geek.

I'm pretty sure Momopi has mentioned networking before and he seems to be pretty knowledgeable on the social etiquette in Taiwan. Nerdy and hip isn't mutually exclusive in Asia.
Is it just cause he has a Taiwanese mindset in that he is a conformist who only values practical things, which is typical of Taiwanese? And that his social circles consist of professionals?

You don't have to be conformist to be sociable. You only have to get your foot in the door and be thought of as a pleasant person to be around. There are a myriad of ways to do this. It's just social skills. Matter of fact part of being sociable is acceptance of others while bringing something to the table that's new and interesting.



Personally, I've normally gone for more mainstream types which probably sets me apart from the more stereotyical white guy. But if you dig through my posts from several months ago, you will see some scenarios I posted about other guys I knew, many of whom did not meet the stereotype either.

Only a minority of the girls I dated were encountered in clubs. I've met so many in public places like shops, restaurants, and even the sidewalk. The majority had never dated a western guy before and with almost all of them, we communicated soley in Mandarin Chinese, irregardless of the girl's English skill.

What do I say? Anything that pops in my mind. Basically, it boils down me to telling her I would like to be her friend. And I suprise the hell out of her, some foreigner appearing outta nowhere suddenly wants to know her. If the girls likes the way I act and look and is curious, and open to the idea, she usually probes a bit to find out the whys. Then I throw in a few sincere compliments and usually get a number to follow-up on. If the girl does not like the way I look, is unavailable for some reason, or just not open to the idea, she normally declines politely saying something along the lines of its not convenient. They were almost never rude to me.

Does this still work? I don't know. Things change. But my tenant's experience is recent, he was more passive than me, and he did very well - with club girls and even uni students. Perhaps being a graduate exchange student at a Taiwan university is the way to go these days.

Finally, are white and black foreigners held to different standards? Perhaps. When gals review us in their mind, the dominant thought is a white or black image, not so much the specifics of our face, etc. So we may get some benefit of association if they have a generally positive feeling for the foreigners they've seen in movies, etc. That's the way I used to think about east Asian girls too before I travelled or got used to being around them (ie when I was in high school and my early days in college).
Last edited by Rock on Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rock » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:31 pm

Winston wrote:Repatriate,
The friend in Korea is a white guy. He is very outgoing like me, and smart, but very real and there is no fakeness about him at all. He is from NY and is no nonsense.

You say that once you're "plugged in" it's effortless.

How do you plug in? Do you have to get invited?

If so, and Taiwan is a dating/social paradise, then how come no one will show me this paradise that they talk about? I've offered Taiwan bloggers money to show me where the open girls are, but they make excuses.

Also, I don't get how in a land with ZERO eye contact with strangers (esp women) no one has a problem socially except me? I find that hard to believe. I am far more outgoing and communicative than most people. But no one has a problem except me?

That doesn't add up.

If you were in Taiwan right now, would you also make excuses about why you can't show me where these "open people and women" are?

You say that your Asian friends in TW have no dating issues. But they all meet girls through their friends right? None of them can chat them up or approach them in public cold, right? If so, then that is the conservative way to meet people, just like in America, through friends. So how is that any different from America?

Would you say that Taiwan is easier to plug in and break into cliques than America? If so, in what way? Both countries are cliquish. And cliquish countries are HARD to break in. It's not natural or easy, and doesn't flow naturally. So how can it be easy for everyone you know in Taiwan to meet people, yet f***ing impossible for me?

I am far more outgoing and communicative than the average person.

Finally, how can Thais be like Orientals? Thailand is in SE Asia and everyone says SE Asia is more open and relaxed. Right? Plus darker skinned Asians tend to be more open and less snotty, for some reason.


Rock: What are you doing in Thailand? I thought you couldn't leave here? Will you give us any trip reports? Or is it all classified?


I've come here to deal with an investment. And I'm enjoying it. I will try to give a trip report. But first thing on agenda is to post my interview about Taiwan / Brazil / France / USA.
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Postby Rock » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:49 pm

Repatriate wrote:
Rock wrote:- I agree that a lot of white guys have very bad taste (according to my own standards). Here in Thailand, its really in your face. Young decent looking guys in Banglamphoo hanging out with nasty looking dark girls from the sticks of Issan. But, I do see some with quality too. Sometimes, I see these guys with innocent looking stunners from Chula or Bangkok U around the malls. And today, I met, through a mutual friend, a mixed (half German half Thai) 24 year old photo model chick who frequently hooks up with young farang and is currently with a big Aussie dude. As with many Luk Kreung, she was quite stunning in person as well as in the photos she showed me. In Taiwan too, some of the white guys choose gals who are not very impressive according to my own taste.

I dated a half Thai/Half Aussie (ironically) and most Luk Kreung (half asians) end up in relationships with Thais. This is almost universally true because it's become a cliche' amongst social circles here. I find myself stunned at some of the choices made by westerners though. I do think a lot of attraction is racial. What "white" guys find attractive isn't necessarily what asian men find attractive although some women are universally attractive but they are extremely rare.


But I have seen some real hotties with black guys. But hey, my taste is different too. The Taiwanese girls I like the most physically would probably be considered very attractive facially but somewhat overweight by the majority of local Taiwan guys.

I am close friends with a black guy from Chicago who spent a bit over a year in BKK. He actually didn't have a problem with a lot of girls. I saw him pull very attractive Thai women before. A lot of women were just surprised at his outgoing nature and the fact he wasn't a Nigerian. The fact of the matter is if you're different from the norm in a charming way it's a good thing. If you're "strange" in their eyes it's a huge minus. He had all the right attributes.
- Good thing about Thai for someone like you Winston is that you can find a wide variety, spec wise, of low cost P4P in places like Pattaya while you slowly build-up your local language and social skills and hopefully succeed in moving into more mainstream Thai circles. I believe for many Thais, your Chinese appearance brings you closer to them than regular whites/blacks/arabs/etc.

In fact, I've heard very often that Thais absolutely hate Indians (there is a large disporia here) and lump a lot of middle easterners in with them.

False. I know quite a few 20 something Thai-Indians who do really well in dating. They are with hi-so Thai-Chinese girls who are very attractive by any measure. It's all about culture and social skills like I said before.

If you do partak in P4P, you really should be very discreet abut it if you wanna hang in respectable circles. Do it the way Thai guys do, not typical foreigners. If you act like many white farang parading their rental girls around town, you will may find yourself shunned by polite society once the word gets around.

Gentleman clubs on the other hand are accepted by "polite society" Thais and especially if you're invited by the boss :).
Winston, no matter how western you feel, you are not a white guy so you do not appeal to these types. As for the gals who want ABCs, I understand they are quite picky about height, looks, dress, etc. So you fall out of their spec range too.

I actually agree with this. The "groupies" I mentioned before are present in every asian country and are there to service white guys. Women who want ABC's aren't that picky actually, you just have to fit into their mold. You have to be hip locally but foreign privately. There's a huge set of women to choose from here. I tapped into it in Thailand and it's pretty amazing. ABC's are considered defacto "Thai" in a lot of ways. You get a ton of benefits with upper-middle class Thai girls.
- If you asked some black Americans, they might tell you that Iceland is a sexual paradse with all kinds of blond girls offering up their b***y for short term no strings attached fun. But for average Joe whities, it would be a sexual dessert. So the formula depends on both the person and place. Its not like any guy can do well in a given country.

Most black guys hilariously mention Australia and Canada as their b***y paradise. Runner up? Germany.

- If I were you but unattached, I would give-up on Taiwan and focus on areas where I might be considered the most attractive as a prospective mate. Here's a few guesses:
BEST: Phils, 2nd and 3rd tier urban China, Vietnam, certain parts of Lat Am. I would add Thai for shorter term relationships.
WORST: Fully developed East Asia, Mongolia, developed English speaking world.



I think Winston would do better in Vietnam than China. That sounds weird but Vietnam has a strange tolerance for outrageous personalities. I think most Thai women would think he's weird though. He might also want to try Indonesia just for shits and giggles. It's a muslim country but it's so unorthodox in many ways that a strange Chinese looking guy might have good success there.


1. If taste is race based, then I'm probably 75% black and 25% East Asian. I almost never go for the same gals as my white friends except for those occasional universal stunners (attractive to almost everyone).

2. I can't believe what Suk Soi 3 area looks like these days. Some parts are full of Africans and now there are even some black working gals. When the guys approach me, I keep a big distance. I've heard they managed to get tacit permission to do drugs business by paying the right amount at the right level. I find that hard to believe given Thailand's stance on drugs but these guys seem to get away with it in so many other places so you never know.
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Postby Rock » Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:22 pm

@ Repatriate

In a previous post of this thread, you stated, "False. I know quite a few 20 something Thai-Indians who do really well in dating. They are with hi-so Thai-Chinese girls who are very attractive by any measure. It's all about culture and social skills like I said before."

I did not base that on my own observations or experience but rather what an expat Adjarn at Chulalongkorn expressed through over 1,000 posts on a popular forum, with the last post being about 2 years ago. His handle was "Old Thai Hand" and he clai med to pull lots of hi-so student types and would also post lots of photos with identies thinly disguised to prove himeself. He often came-off as pompous but was generally acknowledged as the top Thai expert on that forum. He claimed that the Indians and Thai Indian students on campus were completely shunned by their female Thai classmates. He also openly disdained whoremongers and their ugly rent-a-skanks. His taste in women had become completely Thai and would encourage guys who planned to stay long term to date regular Thais.

Now how credible was he? Well, he was very gifted as a writer and and online debater. He name dropped a lot and weaved himself in the picture (royal family, police, etc). Anyone who challenged him online would get put in their place. But some of the claims he made seemed exaggerated to me. How did a guy his age (late 40s / early 50s) attract women like that. Did his 20 year old girlfriend truly have affection as he claimed? Why would students avoid fashionable and well presented young Thai Indians? When I read his stuff, he had me for awhile just cause he was so gifted at the art of argument and persuation. But I'm less certain now, esp. after reading your comment in bold above.

I cannot judge from my personal experience. I've spent a lot of time in Thailand on trips of up to 3 months max, both for biz and pleasure. But I have only scratched the surface of this country. I do find it fascinating and have read many books about various aspects of life here. Most of them were written by seasoned expats but I did read the English translation of a famous book, "Letters from Thailand" which provided some great insight into the culture here (often negative) from a Chineses perspective several decades ago. I also read a couple of interesting books written by a for hire spy based here and one written by a female farang teacher in the 1950s. Oh, also 4 books written by former expat prsoners in Thailand, one who managed to escape.

Personally, I've only been physically involved with one higher class type, a Thai Chinese from a fairly wealthy family. And I only maintained that relationship for 9 months. Believe it or not, the only other girl I dated here was a farang, a big tall white girl who taught at the Princton Review. After being in Asia so long, she had a lot of exotic appeal to me.

Anyway, it sounds like you are very plugged-in to the current scene here. What is your racial background? How long have you been in Thailand and Asia? If you've asnwered this before in preious postes, forgive me for having missed those posts.
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Postby Repatriate » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:46 am

Rock wrote: He claimed that the Indians and Thai Indian students on campus were completely shunned by their female Thai classmates.

Indians that are of the international student variety are not especially popular due to cultural differences but I wouldn't say they are shunned either. Thai-indians on the other hand are pretty well accepted if they speak and act Thai. The Thai-indian guys I know dress very well, speak fluent Thai (and english), and have lots of regular Thai friends.

I do know that in the whoremonger areas there is a prejudice against Indians and Arabs for sure but that's entirely different and based on actual Indians from India and their rep for being smelly and cheap.


Now how credible was he? Well, he was very gifted as a writer and and online debater. He name dropped a lot and weaved himself in the picture (royal family, police, etc). Anyone who challenged him online would get put in their place. But some of the claims he made seemed exaggerated to me. How did a guy his age (late 40s / early 50s) attract women like that. Did his 20 year old girlfriend truly have affection as he claimed? Why would students avoid fashionable and well presented young Thai Indians? When I read his stuff, he had me for awhile just cause he was so gifted at the art of argument and persuation. But I'm less certain now, esp. after reading your comment in bold above.

It sounds like another expat blowing smoke. I seriously doubt someone in his late 40's-50's is attracting 20 something university students unless of course it's a pay for play proposition. Matter of fact the only time i've seen this sort of age difference is in the obvious whore monger areas. A regular Thai girl (especially a status conscious 20 something university student) would be really embarrassed to be seen with an old farang guy because there are prostitution connotations there.

If that's really him with members of the royal family he'd be pretty stupid posting his pics up connecting his name with theirs. This is especially true if he's making all sorts of veiled derogatory comments on the internet about Thai people. Someone could print out all his posts and mail them to the cops and the university he supposedly works at in Thailand, they take lese majeste and defamation against Thais very seriously.

Anyway, it sounds like you are very plugged-in to the current scene here. What is your racial background? How long have you been in Thailand and Asia? If you've asnwered this before in preious postes, forgive me for having missed those posts.

I'm an ABC like Winston and also from a Taiwanese background. I've been living in Thailand for about 5 years now. I consider myself pretty familiar with the country and people now but by no means consider myself an "expert" or "old hand" like a lot of expat clowns try to play it up.

I think there's an awful lot of misconceptions about Thailand though. It's really a country that has a much more complex mix of people than what is initially seen on the surface. Since I am often mistaken for being "thai-chinese" it's been relatively easy for me to see how Thai people really think beyond the face that they put on for foreigners.
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Postby Rock » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:04 am

Repatriate wrote:
Rock wrote: He claimed that the Indians and Thai Indian students on campus were completely shunned by their female Thai classmates.

Indians that are of the international student variety are not especially popular due to cultural differences but I wouldn't say they are shunned either. Thai-indians on the other hand are pretty well accepted if they speak and act Thai. The Thai-indian guys I know dress very well, speak fluent Thai (and english), and have lots of regular Thai friends.

I do know that in the whoremonger areas there is a prejudice against Indians and Arabs for sure but that's entirely different and based on actual Indians from India and their rep for being smelly and cheap.


Now how credible was he? Well, he was very gifted as a writer and and online debater. He name dropped a lot and weaved himself in the picture (royal family, police, etc). Anyone who challenged him online would get put in their place. But some of the claims he made seemed exaggerated to me. How did a guy his age (late 40s / early 50s) attract women like that. Did his 20 year old girlfriend truly have affection as he claimed? Why would students avoid fashionable and well presented young Thai Indians? When I read his stuff, he had me for awhile just cause he was so gifted at the art of argument and persuation. But I'm less certain now, esp. after reading your comment in bold above.

It sounds like another expat blowing smoke. I seriously doubt someone in his late 40's-50's is attracting 20 something university students unless of course it's a pay for play proposition. Matter of fact the only time i've seen this sort of age difference is in the obvious whore monger areas. A regular Thai girl (especially a status conscious 20 something university student) would be really embarrassed to be seen with an old farang guy because there are prostitution connotations there.

If that's really him with members of the royal family he'd be pretty stupid posting his pics up connecting his name with theirs. This is especially true if he's making all sorts of veiled derogatory comments on the internet about Thai people. Someone could print out all his posts and mail them to the cops and the university he supposedly works at in Thailand, they take lese majeste and defamation against Thais very seriously.

Anyway, it sounds like you are very plugged-in to the current scene here. What is your racial background? How long have you been in Thailand and Asia? If you've asnwered this before in preious postes, forgive me for having missed those posts.

I'm an ABC like Winston and also from a Taiwanese background. I've been living in Thailand for about 5 years now. I consider myself pretty familiar with the country and people now but by no means consider myself an "expert" or "old hand" like a lot of expat clowns try to play it up.

I think there's an awful lot of misconceptions about Thailand though. It's really a country that has a much more complex mix of people than what is initially seen on the surface. Since I am often mistaken for being "thai-chinese" it's been relatively easy for me to see how Thai people really think beyond the face that they put on for foreigners.




1. That’s the good thing about you and Winston - break your ass, gain a decent level Thai fluency, and you can blend in quite well. You still have to put big effort into networking and socializing in the correct way but its quite doable. I guess we farang are always from another (inferior) planet even with fluent Thai as far as locals are concerned. But, some of the young and fashionable ones seem to be accepted. At night, around RCA Tower area or some of the Thai hotspots on the high sois of Suk, I usually see a smattering of these types of farang hanging out w groups Thais or Thai dates.

2. When you go below the surface, I’m guessing many common Thai values would be an affront to Winston’s sensibilities. He would probably like it for awhile but eventually get disillusioned (just a guess though).

3. Chula instructor never showed himself in photos or revealed his name. But if someone really wanted to find him, they probably could given all the details he posted (age, subjects taught, description of boss, etc.). He also never made ill comments about the royal family as far as I know. In his earlier years, he would often fight on behalf of the Thais with other forum members. But after spending over a decade here, he got disillusioned under bad treatment by some of his superiors (a female boss in particular) who made a lot less than he and the general direction the country was headed-in. In the last year, he did seem quite bitter and complained a lot about Thai incompetence and lack of intellectual curiosity.

4. As for the ladies he pulled, he claimed much of it was discreet. He theorized that some of the gals were curious about him given his position and title (a large number were ex-students or their friends from other unis). He claimed his girlfriend was middle class and light skinned with a family who liked him.

5. I have not noticed age gaps here either. Most couples seem to be of like aged partners. Do the older guys with money who keep young mia nois keep it all indoors?

6. When I see expats who claim to be experts about a country after just a few years, I too find it ridiculous. I do know of an exception here and there though, people who manage to get very well connected with power and/or the in-crowds. I mean, put it in perspective. I grew up in the USA. Yet I’m no expert on that country, not by a long shot. So how can I claim to be the authority on another land?
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Postby momopi » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:42 pm

Rock wrote:2. When you go below the surface, I’m guessing many common Thai values would be an affront to Winston’s sensibilities. He would probably like it for awhile but eventually get disillusioned (just a guess though).


Knowing him, I'd think that's almost a certainty.

Hmf, sometimes I wonder if he could've been successful at being EMO when he was a lot younger.


Anyways, commenting on how women rate men, I found this article:
http://www.esquire.com/women/women-issu ... women-0510

34. What's the first thing you look at when you see a man?
His hair 14%
His clothes 15%
His shoes 2%
His eyes 49%
His Body 17%
His girlfriend 4%
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