Recent Visit to Thailand

[Rock]

I recently spent 3 weeks in Thailand: Bangkok and Pattaya. Girlfriend came over to join me for 1 of those weeks so I had 2 weeks on my own.

Here are some takeaways (just my observations and opinions as a frequent tourist and hobbyist)

- Living standard in Bangkok seems higher than last visit over a year ago. Costs approaching Taipei’s for many things and already higher for some. Best value for money I found: taxis, all types of massages, drinking and eating (esp. Banglumphoo area), legal services, dental work, some medical tests and procedures, and budget to high-end hotel accommodation (many attractive promotions given recent political protests).

- Infrastructure improvements. Elevated train link between airport and Bangkok commenced, freeway to Pattaya completed. More newish taxis and operating deluxe condo buildings. Fewer small time direct rip-offs, scams, and hassles.

- Bangkok becoming even more diverse. Long term residents and tourists from most parts of the world representing all age groups. Free Shabbat meals on a weekly basis at Chabad House near Khao San Rd. attract hundreds of Israeli travelers on a consistent basis (I went once and saw over 500 people inside). Muslim Middle Easterners found in heavy concentrations around Bumrungrad Hospital / Grace Hotel area. Same area has more recently experienced an influx of West Africans and Kenyans. There is now an alley off of Soi 3 aptly named Soi Africa. Some of the Africans have followed the working Thai girls to find bottom-end accommodation miles away in the high sois of Suk. White westerners found in significant numbers all around the main areas of town. Indians are heavily concentrated in central areas as well, many as tailor, hotel, or restaurant proprietors. There is Korea Town Plaza on Suk Soi 12 and some Koean dominated multi-building high-rise condo complexes on outskirts of town. Likewise, there are many small Japanese areas and condos around town. Banglumphoo full of young western travelers who stay out all night drinking and partying. Lots of Chinese tour groups or Chinese tourists on their own these days. One day on the Skytrain, I sighted a Thai tour leader communicating with her group in half decent Spanish. Seemed to be a higher number of young expats than in previous years. Thai nationals in the capital segregated along job and class lines. Bulk of lower-paying and/or dirtier or more manual stuff appears to get done by poor Thai Isan (people from large northeast region of Thailand) while much of the higher paying and/or more prestigious functions are handled by central Thais, Chinese Thais, or Indian Thais.

- Favorite place for drinks or dinner. The Dome Restaurants (Breeze, Skybar, Sirocco, and others) atop State Tower on the corner of Silom and New Charoen Krung Rds. Beautiful outdoor panoramic view of Bangkok and Chao Phraya River from the roof of a 60+ story building and mellow music from a live jazz band on one side. Prices for 2 will start at 1,000+ Baht for a drink each and can easily shoot-up to over 10,000 Baht if you drink a lot or do dinner. A great experience and worth at least one visit IMO.

- Another fun thing to do is to get off BTS at Saphan Taksin station, go out the river exit, and catch free shuttle boat to the Marriot Riverside Resort. There you can hang-out at the resort style pool and jacuzzi next to the river while having modestly priced drinks or even lunch at the pool bar. They have a 2 for 1 happy hour from 4-6 pm everyday which you can enjoy while taking dips in the pool or outdoor hot water whirlpool (one of the few in Bangkok). You can even buy a pass to use the gym and other facilities at the resort. The more conveniently located Shangri-la used to have similar set-up (pool, jacuzzi, and bar along river) but ruined it when they remodeled their pool area, separated the outdoor bar, and eliminated the outdoor hot tub.

- To Do List for next visit: Siam Niramit theater production, Segway Tour, Lumpini Muay Thai fights

- Farang P4P in Bangkok still seems strong. Visited Suk (Grace/Nana area all the way to Soi Cowboy and Soi 33) and Patpong night market area. Girls - chubby, slim, short, tall, dark skinned, light skinned, Thai Isan, and a smattering from other parts of Thailand, CIS, and Africa. As usual, there are lots of ladyboys around and the better ones have gotten even more feminine and beautiful. The doctors and hormone treatments are getting really good.

- P4P Scene Pattaya: Best value for money and more better looking girls available than B4. Regular hotel rooms generally half the price of Bangkok’s for similar quality and location. Probably over 90% of local gals hail from Isan (NE region of Thailand) quite different from central Thailand culturally and economically, population tends to be of Lao origin. My visit coincided with Ramadan and generally depressed tourist numbers due to recent 2010 Political protests. Perhaps for this reason, it seemed to be a buyers market. Lots of willing girls all over the streets of South Pattaya available for 500 Baht ST, 1,000 Baht LT. In past, best looking freelancers tended to hook-up fast with longer term customer/boyfriends for days to weeks at a time or pick and choose customers. Garden variety of available ones were high mileage/older/map of the world/outta shape/drug addicted or some combination. So that left more expensive go-go dancers who by many accounts are more mercenary. But this visit, there seemed to be a lot of friendly and willing freelance hotties out and about. If you’re lucky, you can find one who is fairly new (English fluency is a rough benchmark for experience), naturally generous, easygoing and willing to provide a convincing low-cost GFE. IMO, best to keep some distance and take out multiple times ST (which can last many hours if commenced during day) instead of overnight. The biggest change I noticed from past visits was the new Central Mall (quite big and nice) and the bazaar along the beach side of Beach Rd.

- Non-P4P Pick-ups recs for ST visitors/tourists. You're in Thailand so don’t think too much. Just go with the flow, try your best, and take whatever comes. In South Pattaya, most girls either work in the business or on its periphery. But Bangkok is full of regular girls. If you feel comfortable, just smile and talk to girls you see around the malls and public venues. If one is friendly back, get her number or ask her out. She may bring a friend along but if they decide you’re ok, you may get a chance, either that date or next, to have her alone. Some modern gals who are completely disconnected from ‘the business’ are still sexually open or at least curious. In the evening, you will find lots of local young girls around Khao San Rd. and its local clubs (Lava, Immortal, etc) or drunk tourist girls in Gullivers @ Khao San and the nearby open air after-hours venues. If you feel young enough, swing by the RCA area (throngs of teens to early 20s local gals and guys). There are a smattering of clubs in other parts of town so depending on where you stay, just ask around or Google.

- Dangers / Dos & Don'ts. A lot of nasty things happen to foreigners in Thailand. You constantly read or hear about brutal beatings, set-ups, scams, questionable suicides, arrests with lengthy jail stays, and even murders. In spite of all this, I generally feel much more relaxed walking around Bangkok and most parts of South Pattaya day or night than in many parts of urban Europe. In all my stays and visits, I’ve only been a crime victim once (theft) and that was perpetrated by another foreigner.

Depending on how you behave and think, your chances of running into to trouble can be quite low or almost certain. People are not considered equal in this land. As a visitor and foreigner, any disputes you have with locals will be from a position of weakness.

- Respect Thais and their sensibilities. Be polite and give them face. For example, if a taxi driver quotes you an exorbitant fare in front of his friends, especially if they are drinking, don’t tell him to f**k-off. Just smile and decline while walking away.

- If you get bad service from an establishment or person, don’t complain cus usually, nobody cares what you think. Just vote with your feet and take your business elsewhere.

- Don’t act macho because you will just look stupid and might suffer a beat-down. The same applies if you visibly express your anger western style. You are generally not allowed to be a true alpha male here (not that you were one back home). Fight one Thai and you fight em all.

- Steer clear of rough looking ladyboy packs near darker or more isolated areas.

- Avoid all drugs and people who use, offer, or even talk about them.

- Get away from any stranger or tout who comes up to engage you in any sort of conversation.

- Police are to be avoided as much as possible too. If you have any problem with them, try to resolve it as quickly, on the spot if possible. But don’t just let them extort you. Patiently, calmly and politely argue your side with a smile. If its a small thing and you're lucky, they might just get bored and let you go.

- In P4P or touristy areas, drink from cans and bottles opened in front of you and don’t leave them unwatched unless you are finished.

- If you pick-up working girls, best to go for short term rooms. If you must bring to your hotel, be clear about joiner policy and keep your valuables locked-away out of sight. Have ID checked to make sure she’s of a safe age (19 or above IMO) and female (unless you’re into shemales).

- If you land in a rip-off joint (easy to avoid if you are halfway alert) and get served an exorbitant bill, try to bargain it down as much as possible and if still outrageous, pay and go straight to tourist police for possible help in recovering the balance.

- Never give full trust to new people you meet, no matter where or in what circumstances.

- As a general rule, whenever an argument arises between you and someone else, do your best to diffuse it even if you are clearly in the right. If it’s just principle or a small amount of money, you might wanna give-in and cut your losses.

- Mind your pockets and bags in concentrated areas such as Chatuchak Week-end Market or Train Station.

[Winston]

Wow that was long. You wrote that yourself?

So you're not gonna give us any details of your "personal experiences"? hehehe

Did you talk to the expats there? What did they say? How do they compare Thailand to the Philippines?

Also, how do you tell if the girl you meet is a ladyboy or a real girl? Any tips on that?

Ladislav?

[Winston]

Check out these videos of Thai bar girls. Wow some are hot. It looks like a similar scene to Angeles:

[Rock]

Wow that was long. You wrote that yourself?

So you're not gonna give us any details of your "personal experiences"? hehehe

Did you talk to the expats there? What did they say? How do they compare Thailand to the Philippines?

Also, how do you tell if the girl you meet is a ladyboy or a real girl? Any tips on that?

Ladislav?

I've been to Thailand many times. First time I went was as a kid. But I've been to Phils only a hand full of times and never to Angeles so cannot compare from direct experience. Only can go by what others have told me.

Thailand today is very diverse as described in my first post. Expats and tourists from everywhere and there are girls to fit most tastes (ie Middle Easterners like really big women, Asians like like skinned girls, some guys have particular fetishes which can be satisfied, etc.). Americans are actually a very small percentage. I suspect Angeles is still dominated by older white American men pursuing short slim and dark girls (correct me if I'm wrong).

Ladyboys have also become a lot more diverse. You've got the ones who fit the stereotype (large framed, exaggerated behaviors, etc.). But others are very small and act very passive. Some even have wide hips and big ass and/or a feminine voice. And I've been told one of the Kenyan working girls hanging around Bookazine near Suk Soi 7 is actually a guy. Many of the best ones are very cute or even hot. Of course, there's the arm test and the walking test which can be used to tell for sure. But the easiest way is when in doubt, just ask them directly. If its a girl, she will probably laugh or deny it immediately. But if it is a ladyboy, he/she will either own-up to it, pretend they don't understand, or hesitate before lying. If they play deceptive, you will see it in their body language. The ones who pose as real ladies (most don't these days) will be stirred up emotionally by your doubts and their insecurity will show if you observe carefully enough.

[Repatriate]

Check out these videos of Thai bar girls. Wow some are hot. It looks like a similar scene to Angeles:

Winston you have it backwards..the Phils red light district is based on Bangkok. Anyways it's huge in Thailand and comprises of several areas in the city and one entire city (Pattaya) is devoted to pay for play. There's also one entire broad street (Ratchada) where every block is a massage parlor with high class brothel/massage parlors.

With that being said, you're always talking about the friendliness of the women etc.. but if you go to a country to engage in prostitution then why do you care how the people act? After all if you're paying for it anyways then stuff like that is inconsequential.

Also, the beer bar scene is full of sweaty overweight western expats. The real "quality" can be found in the massages. It's precisely the type of ideal women that you always post pics of.

[The_Adventurer]

I've never had much desire to go to Thailand and your post is making sure I never want to go. Why bother with that long list of dangers? Sure, it may not be as dangerous as LA or another American city, but I chose to leave there too.

Sounds like you can have a much easier and more fun time someplace else.

[Rock]

I've never had much desire to go to Thailand and your post is making sure I never want to go. Why bother with that long list of dangers? Sure, it may not be as dangerous as LA or another American city, but I chose to leave there too.

Sounds like you can have a much easier and more fun time someplace else.

Terrance

Sorry if I gave you the impression that Thailand is very dangerous. What I meant was that it can be very risky for people who behave the wrong way. I've spent time in a lot of not so safe places which are much worse. In those cities/countries, odds are that you will eventually face a crime no matter how you behave as long as you stay for awhile.

In Thailand, I believe you can usually avoid trouble. The problem is that a lot of visitors misunderstand it to be a super easygoing, anything goes, party type of place with very meek people who can easily be pushed around. Some lose themselves in drinking, sex, and even drugs while behaving like they are at an out of control frat party. I'm talking about P44 areas, full moon parties, nights carousing the back-packer district, etc.

A lot of Thai guys you are likely to see are soft and very effeminate. But many others you encounter are tough as nails and have been trained in muay thai. If something you disturbs them or a fellow Thai, they can be on you in a flash. Once they lay into you, it can be very ugly. People like yourself who have lived awhile both in East Asia and Southeast Asia will probably know by instinctively how to behave. But over-the-top macho behavior is an invitation for trouble. I'm sure you already realize what a no-no drugs are anywhere in Asia too. Generally, I still believe the majority of Thai guys are non-confrontational in most circumstances. Live and let live.

BTW, my girlfriend has been to Bangkok and Patts many times as well and visited Manila for the first time last year. She felt a lot safer in Thailand. She goes out in Bangkok by herself day and night without much worry. The site of guns which you may see in Phils is scary to some.

Repat, Lad, or others can shed more light on the danger issue if they wish.

[Winston]

Check out these videos of Thai bar girls. Wow some are hot. It looks like a similar scene to Angeles:

Winston you have it backwards..the Phils red light district is based on Bangkok. Anyways it's huge in Thailand and comprises of several areas in the city and one entire city (Pattaya) is devoted to pay for play. There's also one entire broad street (Ratchada) where every block is a massage parlor with high class brothel/massage parlors.

With that being said, you're always talking about the friendliness of the women etc.. but if you go to a country to engage in prostitution then why do you care how the people act? After all if you're paying for it anyways then stuff like that is inconsequential.

Also, the beer bar scene is full of sweaty overweight western expats. The real "quality" can be found in the massages. It's precisely the type of ideal women that you always post pics of.

Not true. You are acting narrow again and showing that you don't understand human needs. Any guy prefers a bar girl who is friendly vs. one who isn't. You can't perform with a bar girl with a bad attitude. It's far less fulfilling. Trust me, I've experienced all kinds. The kind that treats you good and is sweet makes the experience a thousand times better. It definitely matters. So you are definitely wrong about that, for sure.

Friendliness is not just about whores. It's about mainstream girls too. The mainstream girls in the Philippines are cheerful and relaxed and approachable and easy to flatter and flirt with. That's what I like. That's what gives me freedom. Ladislav can attest to that too. He has flirted with many normal sales clerks in the Philippines.

You aren't seeing the big picture and have narrowed/distorted things again.

How are these high class massage parlors different from the normal bars?

[Repatriate]

Not true. You are acting narrow again and showing that you don't understand human needs. Any guy prefers a bar girl who is friendly vs. one who isn't. You can't perform with a bar girl with a bad attitude. It's far less fulfilling. Trust me, I've experienced all kinds. The kind that treats you good and is sweet makes the experience a thousand times better. It definitely matters. So you are definitely wrong about that, for sure.

It's fake no matter what. You're paying for sex full stop. It's a business proposition at the end of the day and the only thing that matters is how well she fakes it. All this talk about natural friendliness etc.. doesn't really apply to whores since they have to grit their teeth and play pretend with clients anyways. Unless you're one of those guys who thinks prostitutes are really into their line of work.

How are these high class massage parlors different from the normal bars?

Much hotter women because it's more discrete. A lot of the women are truly "part time" and don't make it a all consuming lifestyle.

[Winston]

Not true. You are acting narrow again and showing that you don't understand human needs. Any guy prefers a bar girl who is friendly vs. one who isn't. You can't perform with a bar girl with a bad attitude. It's far less fulfilling. Trust me, I've experienced all kinds. The kind that treats you good and is sweet makes the experience a thousand times better. It definitely matters. So you are definitely wrong about that, for sure.

It's fake no matter what. You're paying for sex full stop. It's a business proposition at the end of the day and the only thing that matters is how well she fakes it. All this talk about natural friendliness etc.. doesn't really apply to whores since they have to grit their teeth and play pretend with clients anyways. Unless you're one of those guys who thinks prostitutes are really into their line of work.

How are these high class massage parlors different from the normal bars?

Much hotter women because it's more discrete. A lot of the women are truly "part time" and don't make it a all consuming lifestyle.

Well like you told me before, that's YOUR experience, not mine. Maybe you have no ability to distinguish between genuine and fake emotion. I've seen both and can tell the difference. When they touch me and kiss me, there is a big difference between an act and an emotional investment in it.

You must have closed yourself off from emotion, feeling, instinct and intuition if you can't tell the difference. Dang...

It is not fake no matter what. Sometimes it is. But you are generalizing. I am shocked at how closed minded and overgeneralizing you are being. Most expats who go to bar girls will tell you this: It is not true love nor is it all business. It's somewhere in between.

In another thread, I showed a photo that showed their attitude.

This is not black and white. It varies. There are shades of gray, subtleties and individual differences. I'll bet you that Larry Elterman and Ladislav would agree.

How many bar girls have you been with? What is your experience level?

Maybe it is YOU who is all business, so you project it onto them?

If it was all fake then explain this:

- How come they have preferences? Some only go with white guys. Others go only with Asian customers. Others like black customers. Why do they have preferences if it's all business?
- How come they get jealous of their customers if they like them? Ladislav will tell you this too. If you barfine one girl and then go in and barfine another, the one you first barfined will often show jealousy and contempt. It is not an act. You can sense it strongly and obviously.
- How come they like some customers over others? I have gone in discos in Angeles with older white males, and the girls I picked up would like me, but not like the guy I was with. How do you explain that?
- How come one time when me and a friend barfined the same girl or slept with the same girl, he reported that she was a dud, but I reported that she was passionate and intense and made love to me for hours? How can there be such a huge difference in how she treated me vs. him if it was all business? HOW????????? EXPLAIN THAT ONE!
- If they like you, they will sleep with you for free too. Mr. S and I have experienced this. So how do you explain that?

The above five variations debunk your "it's all fake and business" theory.

BUSTED!

You forget that these girls are human and have emotions and feelings too. You've dehumanized them with your prejudice for some reason. Why?

Maybe you have no ability to feel emotions from women?

Of course there is some fakeness, but it's not all fake. Some are having fun and some actually LIKE the customer, but it depends on the individual. I've experienced all types.

That's common sense. So why do you have such a black and white mind? I thought you were insightful? Any insightful expat who reads people well could have told you all this.

It's simple. So why do I have to waste my time explaining this when it should be obvious to any intelligent expat?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

It's not a good sign regarding the quality of this forum if I have to explain such obvious things to people. ::::::: shaking head ::::::::

[Repatriate]

It is not fake no matter what. Sometimes it is. But you are generalizing. I am shocked at how closed minded and overgeneralizing you are being. Most expats who go to bar girls will tell you this: It is not true love nor is it all business. It's somewhere in between.

A lot of expats also end up in "relationships" with bar girls and get bled dry and then cry on forums/stickman bangkok about how they were deceived. There's a lot of painfully naive guys out there who are emotionally stunted and believe that the prostitute girlfriend experience is something real. It's not. These women operate on a different level and ones that work in prostitution for more than a few months have their interpersonal relationships warped.

- How come they have preferences? Some only go with white guys. Others go only with Asian customers. Others like black customers. Why do they have preferences if it's all business?

Do you know the term long baller, short baller, and sponsoring? A lot of these women have learned to specialize because they hope to hook up with "boyfriends" who will fly in and out and/or support them from afar with gifts and money. Just because one woman favors one type of man doesn't mean her intent isn't the same. She just finds it easier to ply her trade with that ethnic choice because maybe her features are more appealing to that ethnicity as well.

- How come they get jealous of their customers if they like them? Ladislav will tell you this too. If you barfine one girl and then go in and barfine another, the one you first barfined will often show jealousy and contempt. It is not an act. You can sense it strongly and obviously.

Because these girls are territorial and they don't like other women grabbing their potential repeat customers (sources of income.) It also causes a loss of face to them because it's projecting the image that they aren't good enough to satisfy their customer.

- How come they like some customers over others? I have gone in discos in Angeles with older white males, and the girls I picked up would like me, but not like the guy I was with. How do you explain that?

Specialization. Some athletes play football others play baseball.

- How come one time when me and a friend barfined the same girl or slept with the same girl, he reported that she was a dud, but I reported that she was passionate and intense and made love to me for hours? How can there be such a huge difference in how she treated me vs. him if it was all business?

Perhaps she thought you were a more pliable mark, maybe he smelled, maybe she was in a bad mood that day, or maybe she was in a good mood when she was with you? It could be dozens of reasons but I really really doubt genuine emotion factored into it.

- If they like you, they will sleep with you for free too. Mr. S and I have experienced this. So how do you explain that?

It's a typical long baller game to get the guy on the hook to become a "boyfriend" so they can extract monetary reward later if there is indeed a connection. There are women who do this exclusively and they usually chase after the wealthier asian expats so they can be set up as mia nois (second wives) and such.


Look, i've lived in Thailand since late 2005. I'm not some chump who stepped off the plane. I am very familiar with the p4p hustle. I even personally knew a couple MP girls (who were just casual club acquaintances..not f**k buddies or anything) and I saw a lot in how they operate from a personal level. They are almost always hustling in one way or another...whether they work in a bar or a MP.

If you wanted a more detailed answer on why some girls also do the MP over the bar scene I can explain all of that to you as well. I can also explain how freelancers work and what places they hunt in. If you don't believe what I say you can verify it yourself in Thailand sometime. You're not going to pull the wool over my eyes on this.

[The_Adventurer]

BTW, my girlfriend has been to Bangkok and Patts many times as well and visited Manila for the first time last year. She felt a lot safer in Thailand. She goes out in Bangkok by herself day and night without much worry. The site of guns which you may see in Phils is scary to some.

That sounds like what I have heard in other places. Most seem to view Bangkok as safer than Manila. The guns never bothered me, as I saw that in Arizona, even on normal people, not guards, but I still would probably never want to go back to Manila. The city of Cebu was, in my view, much better all around. I haven't tried many other places. If I ever came up with a good enough reason to go to Thailand, I might try it.

I am very familiar with the p4p hustle.

If you're speaking specifically about Thailand, I can't comment, but I think Winston is primarily talking about the Philippines and I would have to agree with him. I became good friends with a few bar girls, hung out wit them on a regular basis, no money or sex etc. involved. (You get all the good dirt that way) They are real people. They can and do fall in love with customers. I knew one girl who fell head overheels in love with this fat Korean dude who was, in my view, ugly. There were plenty of nicer looking and richer guys there. He would invariably go into her bar and barfine another girl and she would come to my place crying about it and how horrible he treats her. She wasn't getting anything from me but an ear, and she often wasn't getting anything from him as she would go with him for free anytime he called.

I knew a girl who truly had her heart broken by a guy she wanted to marry. Most of these girls don't consider themselves prostitues.

Of course, there are plenty of fake, mercenary, hard balling, underhanded, all business girls out there, but my point is there is no one brush you can paint them all with. Winston is very much right about how it can be very real with many girls, especially in regards to younger guys. And if you're really handsome, look out!