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Brutal Truth about Russian Morality, Greed, Hypocrisy

Discuss culture, living, traveling, relocating, dating or anything related to Russia, Ukraine, or the former Soviet Republics.

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Postby ph_visitor » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:02 pm

ladislav wrote:Agreed again, but who is trying to justify it? We are not talking about a 'right' here. We are talking about an opportunity for a criminal to see where he/she could take advantage of you. And a foreigner is a country in turmoil like Russia or a lawless place like Thailand is a target of opportunity. So, you've got to be careful.

And people who are online expressly looking for foreigners have an agenda, wouldn't you agree?


Other wrote:And how can it be that Russians have such high IQ's and are good in philosophy, art and chess, yet their country is chaotic, corrupt and nothing makes sense there? It's as if chaos rules there, and the people seem to revel in it.


Russia and parts East, were affected by the Orthodox schism in Christianity, which isolated them from 'The West', and the prevalent thinking there. Mongols, Huns and hordes also came a calling every once in a while, bringing ideas and ways from as far as China.

Thus, when you converse with a Russian on-line about something contentious, he often begins to 'argue' and 'reason' like someone from a Confucian culture. For instance, Russians are commonly intellectually dishonest, blind, dissembling or wilfully misleading about the tens of millions that Stalin killed.

They argue the point much like a Chinese man would argue that Mao was not that bad.

Then, just as someone in China would attack first and hard so as not to appear weak, the Russian brings up the USA/Britain whatever.

Fundamentally, Russians do not 'think' as you do. Since they look like you or like 'Westerners', you believe that they think the same. They do not.
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Re: Brutal Truth about Russian Morality from Repatriate?

Postby Jester » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:23 am

Winston wrote:-----------------------------

“Hello Winston,

...I hate to say it..but I told you so. One only has to
look at Russia's history as a nation and people to
know that they have some serious cultural character
flaws. ...Modern anglo and western european societies
also possess some rudimentary sense of morality and
social mores in regards to "right" or "wrong"
behavior. Russians DO NOT have the same type of
morality in their society. I'm not afraid to make this
very controversial point because you see how they can
take greed, malice, and exploitation to a whole new
level in their individual dealings. ....I'm afraid in Russia you can't
trust a great deal of people, the most nice and well
meaning (or ones that act that way) WILL f**k you over
if given the chance especially if you're a foreigner.
It's almost a given in their culture because they
don't have the same notions of respect or integrity....


......You may find a
millionaire with a model under each arm but there's a
cost to him as well since he's giving the girl de
facto status and wealth
.

....D.

In fact I encourage you to circulate this
as i'm interested as to what others would say about it
as well.â€￾


This guy D is sharp, Winston, he is dead on accurate about FSU folks (ok Ladislav excepted but I don't think he spent that long there). Conniving barbarians in European skins. (Brilliant and accomplished, too.), He makes other great points too - I love "de facto status and wealth". (Ain't that the truth? Chicks act like it DOES rub off!)

Anyway I suggest you invite him to join us here.

Oh and congratulations on having the mental toughness, confidence and love of truth to post his personal criticism.

PS Btw actually **I** don't personally find you attractive enough to date. :wink:

Maybe a poll would be appropriate for this? :wink:
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Postby Jester » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:29 am

ladislav wrote:

...But it is a non English speaking country and you are severely handicapped if you do not speak Russian as you would be in Latin America if you did not speak Spanish. The English speaking people there or those who like foreigners just because they are foreigners are not the best people you can find.


So, it's one thing to be a charmer at a social gathering of folks whose language you barely speak, another thing to develop trust? Interesting.

Seems obvious but once again the basics are worth repeating. Like in any kind of learning.
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Postby Jester » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:57 am

ph_visitor wrote:Fundamentally, Russians do not 'think' as you do. Since they look like you or like 'Westerners', you believe that they think the same. They do not.


You said it.
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Postby ladislav » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:32 am

Why should they think as you do? Just because they look like you do?

Another thing. The Russian culture is Orthodox. Most other Orthodox peoples such as Greeks and Serbians and Bulgarians have no problems with them and love them. People from Catholic or Protestant cultures have hard time dealing with them and do not understand them. So, that is another factor to consider.
One thing in Russia which is true is that if you work within their system on their terms, you will have much less of a hard time. That means basically speak Russian and act like one and put friendship above rules and laws. Once you have friendships built up, they will not betray you. Betrayal of a friend there is punished severely.
In the Anglo cultures, everything is based on rules, laws, with friendship usually taking a second place. You have people suing friends and family members, calling the police on neighbours, and so called friends just disappearing to be never heard from again. That would be unheard of there. Everything is very communal and once you are a member of their community you are in, and you will be treated very differently. But a total foreigner? Good luck!
If you become an insider on their terms, well, then you will see their world differently. If you are not prepared to assimilate into their culture, do not bother.
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Postby ph_visitor » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:36 am

ladislav wrote:Why should they think as you do? Just because they look like you do?


Because appearance is geographically located, denotes a common history, language and value set.

Because the western 20% of Russia is European, but does not share European values.

Because common values usually result in common moral codes and sense of right and wrong.

Because Russians are White and Caucasian (please spare us a lecture on the nature of the Caucasus) in appearance to most people on this planet, thus it would be natural to assume that they share similar moral codes as most Europeans.

They don't.
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Re: Brutal Truth about Russian Morality from Repatriate?

Postby Winston » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:41 pm

Jester wrote:This guy D is sharp, Winston, he is dead on accurate about FSU folks (ok Ladislav excepted but I don't think he spent that long there). Conniving barbarians in European skins. (Brilliant and accomplished, too.), He makes other great points too - I love "de facto status and wealth". (Ain't that the truth? Chicks act like it DOES rub off!)

Anyway I suggest you invite him to join us here.

Oh and congratulations on having the mental toughness, confidence and love of truth to post his personal criticism.

PS Btw actually **I** don't personally find you attractive enough to date. :wink:

Maybe a poll would be appropriate for this? :wink:


D is already on this forum, posting as Repatriate. Didn't you read the post?

That was sent to me a long time ago.

I don't care if you find me attractive or not. I'm not trying to date you. You or I probably wouldn't consider most of the guys here to be attractive either.

But many hot Chinese women consider me to be attractive enough for them. :P
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Postby ladislav » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:35 pm

Because appearance is geographically located, denotes a common history, language and value set.


But again, who is evaluating their appearance and making assumptions? Americans who go to Russia to find a wife and then discover that she does not share Anglo Saxon values even though she looks white?

Because the western 20% of Russia is European, but does not share European values.


But the rest of the country ( the Asian one) is Siberia, which the Russians started conquering at the time of European colonization. It was sparsely populated by Asian tribes who were, btw, not cleansed the way American Indians were. Unlike Uzbekistan or Kazakhstan, Siberia did not declare independence because it did not have enough indigenous population to declare it. Siberia has very little Asian culture per se. It has no pagodas, and unless you are talking of Tuva where most people are of Mongolian stock, most of Siberia is just as Slavic as the European Russia and the people there are as Russian as anyone else.

Because common values usually result in common moral codes and sense of right and wrong.


Russia belongs to the European Cyrillic/Orthodox world. Its values are similar to most other Orthodox countries such as Serbia, Bulgaria, Macedonia and yes, Greece. Russians mostly have Greek derived names, alphabet and religion. They are Slavs who have been Hellenized basically. Russians share a common sense of right and wrong with those countries. Not with Catholic or Protestant countries of Europe or the Americas.

Because Russians are White and Caucasian (please spare us a lecture on the nature of the Caucasus) in appearance to most people on this planet, thus it would be natural to assume that they share similar moral codes as most Europeans.

They don't.


Natural to assume by whom? American bride hunters? People who went there without even bothering to crack a book about the Russian culture or learn the language/customs and assuming that they look like us, hence they must think like us. How naive!

Also, the terms White and Caucasian are Anglo terms valid on the territories of Anglo countries. Again, this is how an American/Brit would classify them which is invalid on the territory of Russia. They do not classify themselves as such. They see themselves as a bulwark of proper Christianity, a second Rome, the Byzantium- based Christian European culture squeezed between the heretical West and the Muslim/Buddhist East. As far as " European" moral codes, you probably think Catholic or Protestant 'Western' European codes, not those of the Eastern Wing of the Roman Empire- the Orthodox Byzantium. And that is what Russia is all about.

This is the Byzantium Emperial Emblem. Virtually the same as the Russian one.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... emblem.svg

This is who they try to copy and who they have been seeing themselves as inheritors of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

Note please, that other Orthodox Byzantium peoples such as Macedonians, Serbians and Bulgarians are Europeans, too ( they are not Africans or Asians or Latin Americans) and they are the ones who are of a very similar culture and codes as the Russians. Those are the bunch of Europeans the Russians belong to (as well Ukrainians and Belarussians)

They never say anything bad about the Russians, worship them and see them as their great leaders and saviors. Almost identical languages, alphabets and outlooks on life. They have no problem understanding the Russians and are not even treated as foreigners there. Greeks also feel very comfortable there as anyone who is an Orthodox European. Catholic Ukrainians, otoh absolutely hate the Russians and misunderstand them( I was born in the Catholic part of Ukraine) and constantly write the same thing most Americans write about them. Except much less PC. "Barbarians, inferior race, wild Asiatics, dirty swine". Just get on a Catholic Ukrainian message board and you can read the worst slurs imaginable.
Last edited by ladislav on Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Banano » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:33 pm

"Note please, that other Orthodox Byzantium peoples such as Macedonians, Serbians and Bulgarians are Europeans, too ( they are not Africans or Asians or Latin Americans) and they are the ones who are of a very similar culture and codes as the Russians. They never say anything and about the Russians, worship them and see them as their great leaders and saviors. Almost identical languages, alphabets and outlooks on life. They have no problem understanding the Russians and are not even treated as foreigners there. Greeks also feel very comfortable there as anyone who is an Orthodox European"


As a Serbian I can say its all true, we have so much in common, same culture, same enemies,etc..Russians are like our big brother.
Montenegro as well, aparently Russians rule the place, they bought everything
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Postby Winston » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:19 pm

Ladislav,
Again, just because someone doesn't understand a culture, doesn't give the people in that culture a right to cheat them, rob them, scam them, backstab them, etc. like my "friend" Vadim in Novgorod did to me. He even led me into an ambushed staged assault, which I thought only happened in the movies.

http://www.happierabroad.com/The_Privat ... e_Scam.htm

How does me not understanding their culture justify that? Why do you use this excuse to justify immoral and criminal behavior? Do I have a right to commit acts of violence and betrayal against YOU if you don't "understand" me?
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Postby ladislav » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:36 pm

Winston wrote:Ladislav,
Again, just because someone doesn't understand a culture, doesn't give the people in that culture a right to cheat them, rob them, scam them, backstab them, etc. like my "friend" Vadim in Novgorod did to me. He even led me into an ambushed staged assault, which I thought only happened in the movies.

http://www.happierabroad.com/The_Privat ... e_Scam.htm

How does me not understanding their culture justify that? Why do you use this excuse to justify immoral and criminal behavior? Do I have a right to commit acts of violence and betrayal against YOU if you don't "understand" me?


No, of course nothing justifies criminal behavior even in a country in turmoil. But the discussion was different. It was about the Russians allegedly not having "European values" and not thinking "as Europeans". I tried to prove that they do by saying that their values are of the Orthodox corner of Europe, not its Catholic or Protestant parts. That in their culture they are similar to Serbians and Macedonians; not Brits, Germans or the French. And the former are Europeans, too. A fact oft forgotten.

Russian criminals are a whole different thing and a discussion of a different topic.

A lot of the culture shock that Americans have with Russia and the Russians is due to the fact that it is the first time they come in raw contact with an Orthodox civilization. Protestant based cultures have hard time dealing with a Catholic- based culture and its values, but at least they have been exposed to such ones somewhat. When suddenly you plunge yourself into the Orthodox world, the result is well, a shock!

Nations that are based on different religions often do not get along. Look at England and Ireland. Albania and Greece. In Yugoslavia, it was mainly Catholic vs Muslim vs Orthodox nations killing each other. Americans traditionally welcomed people from other Protestant nations and these had no problems assimilating into the US culture. But people from non Protestant countries had a hard time.

So, when up against the way the Russians view their world from their very deep Orthodox view, all kinds of wild accusations start flying- Oh, the Russians are not Europeans, they are Orientals in white skin, etcetera, etcetera. No, they are not Chinese/Koreans in white skin. They are Orthodox Europeans. What do you know about Orthodoxy? Did you read up on it before going there or were you trembling with anticipation of you putting your hungry fingers on some blond's tits and had no time to delve into her Orthodox mind?

Try and understand the Orthodox values as as you would try to understand Islam if you had to go to Saudi to live or something.
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Postby PeterAndrewNolan » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:06 am

ladislav wrote:But in a nutshell, the US is a country of laws, not men.


You are just kidding, right? The US is a lawless land that is run by psychopaths. There has been no rule of law since 1938 and only the most tenuous rule of law from 1860 to 1938.

Please go do some reading before making such as ass of yourself.
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Postby PeterAndrewNolan » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:11 am

Winston,
I have been to Moscow a few times...and moscow is not "russia" as people tell me.

Before I went I was briefed. Simply put as a westerner you are a target. You can be mugged and killed for the contents of your wallet. I was told NEVER walk outside with a laptop in moscow. NEVER show that you have money. Even though wearing business suites I was not no valuable looking watches or overly impressive ties and stuff that might attract attention. I was told only to EVER go with the cab company that the company I was working for dealt with.

When I was going with drivers they ALL had guns to protect clients.

The cab rides late at night from the office were the equal of the Jason Bourne car chase in moscow. The cab drivers would drive at 130, 140 kms/hour on the big wide roads and throw the cars around like toys...it was actually a lot of fun.

I like moscow as a city and I like russians as people. But there is more than enough poverty to make it a VERY dangerous place for a foreigner.

I have also been to cape town and felt VERY unsafe there as well. I have also worked in Manila, Saudi Arabia, Kuala Lumpur.....and in all these places a mans life is not worth very much. You can wind up dead in these places pretty easy.
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Postby ph_visitor » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:56 pm

ladislav wrote:
Because appearance is geographically located, denotes a common history, language and value set.


But again, who is evaluating their appearance and making assumptions? Americans who go to Russia to find a wife and then discover that she does not share Anglo Saxon values even though she looks white?

Because the western 20% of Russia is European, but does not share European values.


How about just about anyone who is not, and some who are, living in proximity to Russia? Englishmen, Europeans, Germans, Americans, Canadians, Mexicans, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese - must I list all those nations who would look at a Russian and an Englishman and assume similar culture, values and language?

You cannot be so blind as to not be aware that this is a common belief on this planet.

Also, the terms White and Caucasian are Anglo terms valid on the territories of Anglo countries. Again, this is how an American/Brit would classify them which is invalid on the territory of Russia.


You are American, correct?

But the rest of the country ( the Asian one) is Siberia...[another unwanted lecture redacted] there are as Russian as anyone else.


I even asked you not to lecture, and you still do it. Even when I display knowledge of the subject.

Hint:
This is not your classroom.
I am not your student.
I am well-versed in Byzantine history and the etymology of the Russian languagevia the Orthodox schism. I brought this up, recall.

Stop lecturing.

Natural to assume by whom? American bride hunters? People who went there without even bothering to crack a book about the Russian culture or learn the language/customs and assuming that they look like us, hence they must think like us. How naive!


Everyone else who looks at someone of apparently European genetic heritage. As in, most of everyone else on this planet.

Wake up and take a look around. Everyone else does NOT know this and to deny it is folly.

Also, the terms White and Caucasian are Anglo terms valid on the territories of Anglo countries[another unwanted lecture redacted]And that is what Russia is all about.


I told you not to do this, but you are so arrogant you cannot resist. Appalling.

I even gave you the opportunity not to lecture and you still cannot resist.

I am well aware of all that you posted. Thus the mention of the Orthodox Schism and the similar thinking in those areas and the reason for the differences. Is this unclear, or do you reflexively lecture?

Go read up on the usage of 'Caucasian'.

It has been used in multiple countries (non-Anglo) to refer to people as diverse as Iranians and Ethiopians. This is widely accepted by billions as proper usage, most notably in India. Many Indians self-identify as 'Caucasian'.

Perhaps you should lecture them?

I am sure they would enjoy hearing from your enlightened, more educated, point of view how wrong they are.
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Postby Winston » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:29 pm

The most disturbing psychological thing about being in Russia is that creepy feeling that the people around you just don't care or have empathy, sympathy or conscience about what happens to you. Deep down, you know that if you got hurt, or were injured and suffering, that no one would feel any emotion about it. It's kind of like if you are in the wild jungle, you know that the predators, lions and tigers will not have any sympathy or compassion toward you. No one will care about you or protect you. That's a scary feeling.

Here in Taiwan for example, you can walk around feeling like the society at large does not want you to get hurt and take great care in protecting you. For example, in public buildings, they put nets between floors so that if you were to fall off the balcony, you would land in the net safely. And subway stations have glass walls that prevent you from falling into tracks below, which could cost you your life if you fell just before the subway came. Overall, the people and society actually care about making sure that no one gets hurt. There is a strong conscience about it. People feel guilt and shame about such things. So you can walk around and feel safe because you know that people around you have a conscience, and the society itself takes great care to ensure your safety as well.

But you won't get such consideration in Russia. If you get killed there, or meet with some unfortunate accident, people will brush it off as though you were some insect that just died and are forgotten. People just don't care what happens to you and about your safety. Their inherent attitude is "It's not my problem." So you can't walk around with a comfortable feeling that people around you have conscience or care. That's what's truly scary about it.

I know that this may sound extreme. But that is the feeling you get. Deep down, many Russians are cold sociopaths in comparison to countries with strong morals and conscience. This also makes them more fearless and easy to approach, as they have no fear of strangers. This is one reason why the girls there are so easy to meet and approach. It's not because I don't look intimidating.

So, although they may be very approachable, direct and have no fear of strangers, at the same time, they also lack sympathy, empathy, conscience, shame, etc. at least by Western or Asian Confucian standards.

That being said, if you stick to good common sense and street smarts, you will still remain relatively safe in Russia. It's not as dangerous as I'm making it out to be. In fact, if I hadn't made a few mistakes, and tried to be too nice, I would have never encountered any violence there.

So Russia is still relatively safe if you navigate through it wisely. The scary thing is that "feeling" I described above where you know that deep down, no one cares for you or your safety, or has any guilt or shame about anything happening to you, because their attitude is "It's not my problem." It's the same feeling you'd get in the wild jungle, where the creatures follow no law and have no conscience, where "anything goes". I'm not saying that Russian cities are as dangerous as wild jungles, but it's that "feeling" you get that you are surrounded by cold uncaring sociopaths.

Know what I mean? That's the best way I can describe it.

It gets even worse during the cold winter, because the people get even more miserable there under extreme cold. That's when you feel their misery the most, and their "gremlin-like" faces come out. If you are around during that time, it will rub off on you. That's why you should avoid winter there, and only go during summer, when people are in a happier mood.
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