Discuss culture, living, traveling, relocating, dating or anything related to Russia, Ukraine, or the former Soviet Republics.
Here are two letters I received from men married to Russian women whose marriages are in shambles. I guess that article on opportunistic women must have been sent out somewhere. Any advice for them?
- "Hello Winston,
I'm sure you get a lot of mail but I thought I'd try for a response anyway. I just spent a few hours reading your long narrative about the "Taker" Russian female mentality. I met my wife three years ago on-line. I made three trips to visit her in Omsk and she visited me as well (also 3X) in Germany where I am a permanent resident. Since the marriage, things have been quite different. I would have to admit that 80% of the negative personality attributes mentioned in your report match with the personality of my wife. To make a long story short is there any way to "tame" such a person. Or what would you suggest as being the best strategy for surviving a relationship with such an individual she's driving my crazy?
I would be thankful for any advice,
I have been looking for validation of my observations about Russian
women for quite some time now. You see I am married to a Russian woman
for 5 years now. I suppose the only reason we are still married is that
I too have a bit of stubborness and value the "family life". I just
can't keep apologizing to this woman for things that I can only assume
part of the responsibility for. As you have said in your posts,
Russians do not know the meaning of compromise. I has gotten to a point now
that the constant arguing and posturing is driving me nuts. The
constant periods of silence when she won't talk to me for weeks due to some
minor misunderstanding (which she calls "my being rude towards her") have
taken their toll on my identity. As a friend of mine said once,
(this friend is now divorced from his Russian wife) "a Russian woman would
rather drive you crazy (and take great joy in it) than divorce you".
Well the only reason his wife divorced him is because she was a real
er" (maybe "hooker" is a better word) and she found a younger, richer,
sexier, American guy to take his place. She said that she could not
see herself taking care of him in his older age. Their marriage lasted a
little over 5 years. He even lived in Russia for several years where
he met his wife before he brought her back with him to the US.
So now at a time when I am looking at a divorce from my Russian wife as
the only way of preserving my sanity and not giving up on the person I
am, I have discovered your writings and am grateful for the
information you have shared. It totally agree with your observations and they
sound as if they came out of my own mouth. It too have looked towards
asian or Philippine women and feel that I would have a better chance
making a match within the asian culture. Although the only thing I am
considering after I eventually retire and have a pension at my disposal is
becoming an ex-pat and going possibly to the Philippines, or possibly
Romania. My more realistic plan for now, once I escape from my current
marital prison, is to take my summers (I work for a school system) and
to travel and spend several weeks in a country where I find the women
appealing to my senses. However I will not make the same mistake twice
and marriage will not be part of my plan for now. Advice that I
from an ex-pat in the Philippines was not to bring your new love
interest back to the USA as that is what "spoils" them. His advice is to be
prepared to move to the woman's country and take up family life there.
He is happily married now and living in the Philippines with his
current wife after two failed marriages where he brought his previous wives
to the USA.
Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for your the sharing of your
thoughts and experiences. I plan to keep reading your stuff and keep up with
your adventures. You have a new fan in Colorado.
Last edited by Winston on Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Here is another letter I received from one of them:
Thanks for the thoughtful reply! I just did a google search on
"Russian women stubborn" and your Russian women dissertation came up in that
search, which led me to your web site. I have been doing searches for a
year or more now and mostly come up with propaganda from some of the
Russian dating sites. What I have been looking for is advice on how to
divorce a Russian woman, because I know if it is not their idea, the
whole thing can get pretty ugly. Mine threatened me 3 years ago that if
I ever divorced her, she would make my life miserable for me and call
everyone that knows me including my boss to tell them that I masturbate
to internet porn. How's that for a threat that will leave you
speechless? I do plan to post on your site at some point because I think a lot
of guys, like myself, go into these relationships pretty blind,
thinking that they are getting a hot, young chick who will make their life
total bliss. I am not saying that is not possible, but my experience
me that it is pretty unrealistic. The odds of finding this mythical
woman are pretty slim. As I told one of my buddies, "you have to ask
yourself what the Russian woman finds attractive about an older guy who
is not exactly a male model and who is not exactly rich?" The answer is
"a green card, and if they manage to stick it out, eventually
citizenship". Once those things are achieved by the Russian woman, all bets
are off. And the funny thing is that these are the women who are not
even trying to scam an American guy. Several of the women I have met
through my wife, married an American guy, came over here only to divorce
after a few years and then marry a Russian guy who live here. The funny
thing about it is that most of them hate it over here. In fact most
Russians I know hate it over here and want to go back.
I would like to join your mailing list. Do I do that through your web
site? Also, one of my buddies and I are looking at doing a
documentary on this subject of inter-cultural dating, marriages, issues and
differences. Perhaps we could interview you for that or include you in that
project. I am an documentary filmmaker by trade.
Last edited by Winston on Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Well I am one of the guys who wrote to Winston describing my chaotic marriage of 5 years to a Russian woman. My advice to myself and to anyone else in my situation is "get out", as fast and diplomatically as you can. I am working now on the diplomatic part. I do not know if there is a peaceful way to end a marriage such as this because the one thing that Russian women do not like to do is to admit that they failed, so they will blame everything on the guy. This is fine with me and I am willing to shoulder all of the blame if it means that I can get out without a lot of drama involved. Hell, I should shoulder the blame as I was the idiot who thought this was a good idea to begin with. Now there will be another single Russian woman with a bad attitude in the US. Which just adds to the pool of women in the US already with bad attitudes towards men. I tell you the truth when I say that I have been as good of a husband as I think a woman could ask for but when it comes to a Russian wife, nothing you do will ever be quite good enough. They keep raising the bar on their wants and needs. So that is why I say get out as soon as you can. I kept waiting, thinking that the adjustment period for her would take a while. I have come to the realization that she is never going to adjust her attitude and her stubbornness and general unfair way of dealing with issues. It is either her way or no way. "Compromise" does not translate into Russian. IT is either win or lose and no matter what happens you will lose and she will win. I use the analogy that your wife could be standing in horse shit up to her knees right in front of you and if you pointed it out to her, she would say its not true. There is no logic when dealing with a Russian wife. So if you are thinking in this direction do not do it as a result of a one year internet love affair and then a two week visit to her country. You must totally understand the culture in a country before going there with the intent of finding a mate. Especially the culture of the women there in relationship to men. The Russian culture is very convoluted when it comes to women and their relationships with their fathers, sons, and husbands. As long as the husband treats them like a princess 24/7 and admits that he is always wrong and not a good husband, then things will probably go along fine. Oh, and one other thing; money. That the husband can provide them with a suitable paycheck every week. The Russian woman would have no problem with her husband working 20 hours per day in order to satisfy her needs. By the way, the idea of a salaried employee is very foreign to the Russian wife, they would like to think that you are paid for every hour you work. If you aren't making 6 figures a year (US $$), then I would say that a Russian bride is not for you. Even if you are making 6 figures my guess is that they will probably still drive you crazy. Anyway those are just some of my ideas as a result of a failing marriage to a Russian wife after 5 years. My biggest mistake was not sending her back before the two year green card period was up. I kept thinking that things would get better, but they haven't. I personally would be interested in hearing about other men's experiences with this. I have already heard some horror stories, just in my own circle of friends who have tried going down this path. I guess if I had to sum it up, my biggest complaint is that there is no easy way of working out differences with a Russian wife. They are not good at communicating when things are not going well. IF there is a disagreement, and you are not in agreement with her (no matter how small the issue is), there will be a problem... And the way a Russian woman deals with a problem is to not talk about it. Honestly they will not talk to a husband for weeks (while he sleeps on the couch) rather than compromise on anything. OK, I have said enough for now.
Been there, done that.
I agree completely. Might I add forget about any idea or desire to get the succa deported back to her own country. Let her stay if she wants - just get her the hell out of your life as quickly and cheaply as possible. You have no control over whether she stays or goes. Forget about it.
Hire the most cut-throat, trench-fighting, SOB matrimonial attorney you can find and end the marriage as quickly and painlessly as possible while doing everything you can to retain as many of your assets as possible.
If she wants to stay, her path will be made easier if you provide her with a letter attesting that you entered into the marriage "in good faith". If she has this from you her self-petition to stay will be a virtual lock. Often times you can "negotiate" for a better settlement of marital assets by agreeing to provide her with such a letter in exchange for assets consessions by her. DO NOT AGREE TO PROVIDE HER WITH SUCH A LETTER UNLESS ADVISED TO DO SO BY YOUR ATTORNEY!
Best overall advice I can give.
I would simply like to point out that Russia is a very broad and diverse culture, and there are many different types of Russian women. True, there are some strong social tendencies in Russia, but I would not agree that your experiences are representative of Russian women. You are meeting these women within a specific counterculture of the International dating scene in Russia. Unfortunately, these internet dating sites and sex tours attract the nation's hustlers, and that is what you are dealing with: hustlers. Not all Russian women are going to be this way. Also, remember the propaganda on these websites are selected to appeal to Western men, and it really has more to do with American culture than Russian culture. Most the descriptions on the websites have nothing to do with Russian women, and in fact some of the photos are of Los Angeles models from the Midwest, Brazil and the California area.
The reality: the only concrete tendency in Russian culture that will appeal to Western men is that the young girls keep themselves thin. This is actually, again, more reflective of American culture, as American culture is unique in the fact that we have many young girls who are overweight. Young Russian women (and even a few of the older ones), drink a special tea that prevents their bodies from using all the calories they consume. On top of that, they eat less, and rarely drive. So they stay thin.
There is allot of talk that Russian women come across as less entitled than western women, and that is not true at all. To some degree, it may be true about Soviet era women, but most of them are probably at an age that would not appeal to most of you. Even then it is not really true. A Soviet women will go out and work, come home, cook for you (badly, as Russian women are not usually great cooks), bake delicious bread and torte for you (great bakers), keep the clutter out organized on little shelves or locked away in a storage room (but she won't get rid of it), iron all your clothes and will pick up after your every crumb .. BUT .. if she knows that you can afford to buy her diamonds, she will expect it , although unlike an American woman who would directly tell you that, she will be passive aggressive about it. The modern young Russian women, if they know they are good looking, yes, they know they are a prize, and they expect their price. The only exception may be of country girls in Western Ukraine, and most men will find such girls to be a little rugged.
Keep in mind the generational differences in Russia are more pronounced than other cultures, and the soviet era women have almost nothing in common with their daughters/granddaughters who have come of age in the yeltsin/putin era. What does this mean? Well, it is very difficult to adjust to the in-laws, even for a younger person from the Russian community. I can't even imagine what a nightmare it would be for the typical American person who is used to modern and easy going parents. Don't get me wrong ... I am not saying they are "bad" in-laws, because in fact, there are many advantages (you won't have worry about daycare), but in my opinion, the difficulties would outweigh the advantages for most American people. The only exception would be if you stumbled upon a very modern and cosmopolitan type of family, but that would be more likely in a more metropolitan or "hot spot" place like St. Petersburg or Odessa. In that case, the women will have the same "spoiled" entitlement issues that you are trying to escape from American women. Especially now that Putin is turning Russia into a paradise of sorts. I am amazed at how the standard of living in Russia has improved.
What's my advice: don't be afraid of the Russian suka ... just get a lawyer, and tell her to hit the road. If you have children, get custody of them. If you wish to look for a new woman, and you are looking for a "traditional" type, then I don't recommend Russia. Putin era girls are not going to iron your socks and wake up a half an hour earlier than you to fry you blistered eggs like a Soviet mom. They are shrews, and you won't tame them.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
Here's a follow up letter from Paul, quoted in the beginning of this thread:
Actually I think it showed up when I Googled Russian Women Mentality or
something of that nature. Anyway, trying to stay one step ahead of this
woman is taking all of my energy. Unfortunately it can't always be
She's constantly conniving and trying to figure out how to "Extract." I
the huge mistake of giving her uncontrolled access to the Internet. she
on my nerves about 4 months ago by always shoving her way onto my
whenever I would take a pee break. I went out and bought a second cable
she could connect my laptop to the router. Now she chats non-stop with
all over the world (mostly Russian judging by the speed of her typing).
also noticed the "hide file XP" icon on her computer the other day. She
found out how to delete her Internet surfing tracks under options. Do
know of any way I can sabotage the laptop without it being to obvious
a way that allows me to reverse the action (maybe a line or two in the
config file that I could than reverse later?).
We live in WÃ¼rzburg Germany. I'm going to continue looking for advice
on-line. Perhaps I will start making posts in your forum.
These were the parts in your article that were the real clincher for
Non-assertiveness/lack of communication skills
- And if we are in a relationship and there's a problem
don't expect that we are going to do that lame ass constructive western
thing of sitting down and talking out all our feelings assertively. I
do that bleeding heart shit. Even though I have a high intellect,
and calculating nature, my communication skills in relationships suck.
the tide is high, I don't look for solutions. Instead, I just bail.
there's a problem between us, I prefer not to talk about it, but
aloof and distant. And if you ask me what's wrong, I'll simply tell
that nothing's wrong. If ever you wake up and find all my stuff moved
of your home, or if I stop answering your calls, then that will give
message. You need no other explanation.
Commentary: I too have experienced this. When a Russian woman you are
involved with acts aloof and distant, if you ask her what is wrong, she
always shrug and say nothing. For some reason, it's just not in their
nature to talk out their feelings to solve problems. And that can be
aggravating for a loving man with good communication skills who wants
maintain a good relationship. A relationship requires effort from both
sides, but Russian women tend not to want to do their share."
Yet another response about opportunistic Russian women:
"I read your whole article and have to say it's right on. I met a Russian woman a year ago, she is a citizen after being married 7 years to an American. I have been very disappointed at her cheapness, I pay for 120 dinners but you cannot treat me once?, and the stories of men who liked her that she did not date but took expensive gifts from. As you mentioned in your story, they dress nice, are classy, she has 5 degrees!!, but as far as warmth and ever doing for others, forget it. "
I am amazed at Strawberrybla bla bla's answer. Are you living in Alpha Centauri by any chance? I ask because after reading your sentence: "Especially now that Putin is turning Russia into a paradise of sorts. I am amazed at how the standard of living in Russia has improved". I come to the conclusion you are from out of space or you are plain ignorant of the cruel reality of today's Russia
WHAT PARADISE? HELLOOO!!! APPART FROM THE CENTRE OF A FEW CITIES IT ALL REMAINS ASTONISHINGLY BAG. THE FOOD IS OF DISMAL QUALITY. THE AVERAGE DIET IS TERRIBLE, HARDLY HEALTY AN IN ANY CASE NOT SUFICIENT, THE HOSPITALS HAVE NO HYGIENE, NO MEDICINES. THE POOR DOCTORS DRINK IN EXCESS DUE TO THE UNBEARABLE PREDICAMENT THEY FIND THEMSELVES IN. I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. I'M A DOCTOR AND HAVE 3 RUSSIANS DOCTORS WORKING AT MY CLINIC. I BROUGHT THEM OVER TO SPAIN AND I BELIEVE ME, THIS MAY VERY WELL HAVE SAVED THEM FROM DRINKING THEMSELVES TO DEATH.
ONE OF THEM IS A GYNEACOLOGYST. SHE HAD TO PERFORM NO END OF ABORTIONS WITHOUT ANAESTHETIC. IN SPAIN THERE IS NO NEED FOR ABORTION, ALL WOMEN HAVE ACCESS TO BIRTH CONTROL. IN RUSSIA THEY HAVE ACCESS TO VODKA!!! SO, DO NOT LECTURE ANYONE ON THE WONDERFUL THINGS MR PUTING HAS OR IS DOING. IT'S ALL A LIE!!!
WHERE DID YOU GET THAT INFORMATION FROM ANYWAY? CORRUPTION IN RUSSIA IS AT THE HIGHEST HAS EVEN BEEN. THE ONLY PEOLPE THAT HAS BENEFITTED FROM PUTIN'S CORRUPT POLITICS ARE A BUNCH OF OLIGARCHS WITH BLOOD IN THEIR HANDS. THE LIFE EXPECTANCY OF THE AVERAGE RUSSIAN IS 48 YEARS, ONE OF THE LOWEST IN THE WORLD!!!
I SUGGEST YOU JOIN A DINNER WITH GOOD OLD GARY KASPAROV ( YOU PAY YOUR OWN MEAL ) AND LISTEN TO WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT RUSSIA TODAY. HE WILL TELL YOU HOW OLIGARCHS SUCH AS ABRAMOVICH DERIPASKA AND BEREZOVSKI GOT THEIR MONEY AND HOW WHOM EVEN DARES TO SPEAK THE TRUTH ENDS UP DEAD OR IMPRISONED.
GARY IS TOO MUCH OF A NATIONAL HERO TO GET RID OFF, THAT IS WHAT IS KEEPING HIM ALIVE. IN FACT, NO MUCH HAS CHANGED FROM THE COMMUNIST ERA. DIFFERENT DOG, SAME COLLAR, MORE HOOKERS, THAT'S ALL. IN THE CASE OF BELARUS, THE WHOLE THING IS A DESASTER, MUCH WORSE THAN IN RUSSIA. IN ANY CASE IF YOU CONSIDERE IT TOBE SO BLOODY WONDERFUL IN RUSSIA WOULD IT NOT BETTER FOR YOU TO BE THERE? OR PERHAPS SOCIAL SECURITY DOES NOT COVER AS MUCH AS THE GENEROUS USA ONE DOES? MY ADVISE TO THOSE CHAPS MARRIED TO RUSSIANS MAKING THEIR LIVES HELL IS: " GET RID OFF THE BITCHES ASAP" PAY A LAYWER DON'T PAY HER, HAVE HER DEPORTED IF POSSIBLE. I HAVE LOST COUNT OF HOW MANY TRAGEDIES I HAVE HEARD OF INVOLVING THESE PARASITIC WOMEN HERE IN SPAIN. MY BEST FRIEND A PSYCHOLOGIST, HAS 3 COUPLES AS PATIENTS THEIR MARRIAGES HAVE BEEN BADLY DAMAGED BY ONE PARTICULAR RUSSIAN EXOTIC DANCER (HOOKER TO YOU AND ME). FROM THE FIRST IDIOT SHE GOT HER SPANISH RESIDENCY PAPERS. AN APARTMENT FROM THE SECOND. A CAR FROM THE THIRD. LUCKILY, SHE HAS BEEN REFUSED A RENEWAL OF HER RESIDENCE PERMIT(COURTESSY OF SECOND IDIOT'S WIFE, A JUDGE NO LESS) AND WILL HAVE TO LIVE SPAIN BEFORE JULY; (UNLESS SHE MARRIES SOME POOR FELLOW). INCIDENTALLY, THE RUSSIAN GYNAECOLOGIST, PAYS HER OWN MEALS WHILE ON A DATE AND DETESTS THE PARASITES AS MUCH AS WE DO....... DO YOU WORK????????
What kind of lunatic meets girls online? Why not walk into a gay bar with a blindfold on and bend over a table? It makes about as much sense.
Anyone that's serious about meeting a women overseas will actually go overseas and spend time there. And any girls that spend time on the internet chatting is automatically rejected.
I had a Russian guy tell me something and I have grown to see it as gospel.
NICE GIRLS DON'T USE THE INTERNET!
I think it's pretty safe to say that I am pretty well plugged into the Russian community, here and in Russia. You know ... considering that I am actually Russian. The economy, cultures and living standards of Belarus and Ukraine are not comparable to Russia. You sound as though you are still stuck in the Yeltsin era.
Yes I work. In fact I have 2 jobs plus I go to law school.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
W: Kristine, you may be Russian, but have you spent a lot of time in Russia, especially the poor areas? I have, and I can tell you that I've seen elements of what Basque describes, including the horrific medieval hospitals where they scar your skin with big needles.
If you go there, someone can give you a tour of all this, and perhaps you'll see what people like Basque are referring to?
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.
Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!
"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
CAPS LOCK, ITS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL!
Anyhow, if a man does not establish the rules early on in the relationship, he merely allows the female to do so after the marriage. Go in strong, stand firm. A few weeks of putting your foot down at the start of the relationship pays off forever.
That said, if you don't take such precautions, you can expect to be run over as a grandmother would be by a spoiled neurotic child. Such as the females we have on this forum.
Compromise should be one of your last options...not the default response. Don't be afraid to discipline your female, as well. Feel free to password lock the DSL router, or simply shut it off. Have a kill switch put in the car and don't tell her about it. For very unruly females, you should consider tying them up and spanking them with a paddle.
These are just suggestions. I rarely if ever have to stoop to such levels as I married a superb woman and she knows we play the game my way.
Good luck to you all, you will be needing it.
Winston, I am more familiar with medical practice in Russia than you and probably just as informed as Basque about the problems (although being a physician I am sure she knows more about the medical details). I am personal friends with physicians in Russia and Ukraine, who continue to live and practice there. I am well aware of the problems with the hospitals/facilities, the poor quality of the daily food, the stubborn tendency not to move forward with modern medical procedures and many other negative aspects ... I am not saying that problems do not remain, but the standard of living in the last 2 years has improved drastically, and is getting better.
By the way, I find it amusing that you and Basque are enjoying solidarity with your campaign against Russian women based on your mutual codependent grudge. Having said that, Winston, I do not need a middle class Chinese-American guy from San Jose who went on 2 sex tours in Russia to guide me with his expertise on Russian culture. I am not surprised that you react with such culture shock at Russian hospitals when you are going from a rich coastal community in Washington/California to Russia, but I'm going to tell you right now Winston, people from rust-belt steel towns in the Cleveland/Youngstown metro areas of Ohio simply do not react with the same shock when in Russia. Especially when that person actually has family, in-laws and friends who actually recently survived such conditions. I also do not need a Spanish woman jilted by her Russian husband to advise now that she holds an irrational grudge against all things Russian, and is blinded by her own wrath against Russian women. As qualified as these candidates may appear for this job, I have family and friends who actually LIVE in Russia, Ukraine and other areas of FSU who are more qualified to advise on these matters.
At the same time, I will ask you if you're aware that the standard of living in the United States has drastically declined, taking us from 4th best standard of living in the world, to 6th, and in just a year or less, down to number 12?! Have you spent very much time in middle-America Winston? Have you been to the poor areas of the Appalachian mountains? The hospitals and medical care there aren't much better. I can't say that American medical care is all that great either ... yeah, sure in California it is not bad, but most of America is NOTHING like California. Besides language and architecture, Ohio probably has more in common with Poland than California. Perhaps you should take a tour of a few veteran's hospitals, hospices or clinics in rust-belt areas of the United States, Winston. My parents died in their late 60s, partly because of the poor medical care in NE Ohio.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
The World Health Organization ranks the United States health care system at...*drum roll*...37th place!
Right below Costa Rica, but right above Slovenia. Now, how about some insult to injury.
Worlds most expensive health care system?
THE UNITED STATES!
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