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Discuss culture, living, traveling, relocating, dating or anything related to Russia, Ukraine, or the former Soviet Republics.
Someone emailed me:
I got your email concerning your friend from Oregon living in Ukraine and I have to say that I found my experience quite different when I visited Ukraine this past September. If you have a few minutes, I wanted to share my experience with you and get your perspective on it. I know you've talked extensively about your travels on your website and I found many similarities between your overall experience with russian and ukrainian women as I did.
Let me just say that I was fortunate enough to run into some ukirainian girls who spoke some english that told me about the marriage agencies in ukraine. They explained to me that these agencies are pretty much a business service to make money. These girls explained to me that unless a man is loaded with money, most ukranian women are not interested in leaving their country with a foriegn man. They made it pretty clear to me that big money is about the only reason a girl would leave.
I visited three cities while I vacationed around Ukraine: Kiev, Karkiv, and Odessa. I traveled around the cities every day and tried to start some lite conversation with many women. I had learned some basic russian language phrases and words from a language learning CD set about four months prior to my trip so it was enough to break the ice with some general conversation phrases and questions. The women were somewhat friendly but I made it clear that I was an American tourist wanting to learn about ukrainian life and maybe meet a nice ukrainian lady. I was fortunate enough to meet a german guy at a hostel who spoke very good russian and he and I spent many days sightseeing around and being fairly bold towards women while we were out and about. Most of the women expressed an interest in us but almost all of them wanted to be taken out to expensive places and expensive restauants. I would have to say that most of these women seemed to be focused on spending alot of money. I just came to believe that most ukrainian women were interested in money - not something I really wanted in a long term lady. Sure they were georgeous, mini skirts and all, but not what I hoped to find in ukraine. I also went thru Poland and Germany while on my trip. I would have to say that the sincerety of the polish and german women seemed to be more genuine than the ukrainian women I met. What do you think Winston?
As I mentioned to you in an earlier email, I used to be stationed in the Philippines back in 1985 and 1986 and remember how nice the girls were when I lived there. I couldn't help but compare this experience to my ukrainian experience and believe filipinas are much more of what I would like in a woman. I just had to go to ukraine for myself to experience some of the culture for myself and to see first hand whether or not they really seemed to be wonderful and loving women there.
So that's where I'm at now. I've got one more trip planned before I come out to meet you Winston. In four weeks from now, I am taking a two week trip to Buenos Aires and Montivideo (Argentina and Uraguay). I speak a little spanish so I hope to get out and experience some of the culture down there. I'll stay at some hostels and try to meet some women when I'm out and about.
Then, on the 8th of Feb, I fly to Manila and will visit Angeles and maybe Olongapo. I'd like to know what you think. I know your busy with Dianne and your new baby. If you get some time - drop me a note about this stuff. "
Also see my HA Grand Ebook and Join Our Dating Sites to support us!
"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
Mabuhay from Boracay! I got really great vibes from women in Poland back in 2006 but Filipinas, all things considered, are hard to match. Loving, loyal, supportive, wise counselors as they mature and age very well. That's one thing I noticed in Europe / Poland that the women do not age as well, those who are very HOT and attractive in their 20s and early 30s evolve into elder Aunties becoming thicker, heavier or more scornful with age.
Life is Short! Traveling and the people you meet and experiences you have "on the road" will enhance your life forever so GO FOR IT! Feel FREE to ask me Questions about living and traveling in Asia & the Philippines.
No kidding, Winston.
Of course he failed. He was doing the same thing that you did!
He was even staying in a hostel like you did. He should have gotten into a hotel or apartment. They aren't that much. But staying in a hostel means "I don't have money" to other people. I wrote about this in my "New Year with Lessons Learned" thread in your forum. To bad he didn't read it.
There's this accusation that the Ukrainian girls are all looking for money. Well, how much? If they were truely gold-diggers, that would be one thing. If they are only expecting for you to have resources to bring them to America and support them while they get their life established, then I don't see anything unreasonable about this expectation. Why would they want to leave their home to be worse off someplace else? Taking them to a nice restaurant shouldn't be a big deal either. And if everything went well, where was he expecting to take them afterwards, his hostel? No privacy. You need to think about the woman's needs for once and he didn't do it.
The marriage agencies are all in it for the money? I find that hard to believe. There are two honest agencies that I know of. One is in Kiev and the other in Kherson and they are lucky to be making a profit at all. Then there are other honest sites such as "Elenas Models" and "Kiev Connections" where you can contact girls and find out for yourself if money truely motivates them and weed them out that way. Lastly there are personal sites that are pretty much free to everyone. This man simply didn't do his research and believed everything people told him. Unfortunately he listened to the wrong people. He actually thought that women would like him for his passport.
And how does this anonymous email square with what jtest was saying in your forum? You remember him, don't you? He was the one who thought American women were so bad that his stripper friends couldn't get long term girlfriends but thought the women were so easy in Ukraine (he wrote about a girl virtually raping a guy in an alley somewhere). I exposed what he said as BS but you defended him. So either Ukrainian woman are the best in the world, or they're gold diggers. Which is it Winston, eh?
I know it sucks to debate with a man who has a good memory, but do your best!
There is no sense complaining. Half of the people you talk to won't care. The other half will think you deserved it!
I find the Filipinas hard to beat as well and that is why I spend most of my time in the Philippines as does Winston. No harm in that, but the conversation here is about Ukrainian girls, so let's stay the course and use Filipinas as a comparison only.
I congratulate the young traveler for actually trying to learn the language and some culture before going ( unlike some other travelers on this board who may think it is beneath them) . However, one needs to keep in mind that, unlike in the Philippines, an English speaking, former US colony with so many people wanting to get back into the fold of the former colonial master, Mother America through marriage to a Mr. American, the Ukrainians have no such desire for the most part, because well, they love their country. They fought for it, died for it and well, they love it. Just like Americans love their country for the most part. The country's connection to the US is minimal and people just, well, do not fall all over Americans as do many poor Filipinas who grew up on Hollywood movies and who have 30% of their family in the US already.
The second factor is that Ukraine is full of very good looking guys who treat girls quite well, unlike Russia where men treat women like crap. The economy is doing well, and getting better and it seems that, the only reason a girl would want to marry an American or any foreigner is, well, because of money and since life is not so bad in Ukraine now, it has to be a lot of money.
Think about this- how many American gals would love to leave the US by marrying a foreigner ( who can speak only rudimentary English) ? Probably not many because well, they love their country and they love their own American guys. Now, what if a foreigner is a Prince of Monaco or an Arab Sheikh with a trillion dollars in the bank. Possibly, they will do so. Quite a few ladies would, no questions asked because that is worth their while, don't you think?
Now, what if you go to Ukraine to live and work and learn the local language and the local dialect of Russian which is very different from what they speak in Russia in many ways and try and do things on their terms, hold parties, sing their songs and tell jokes the local way? Be introduced through local guys to local girls at parties. Ah, well, that is another story you see. Guys who do that seldom fail. I know of Arabs who are there and they are very happy. They have oodles of friends and have girls to last them a life time. You see, they did things the local way, the Ukrainian way. Probably because they too, love the country and its people and respect its traditions and not just think about how they can benefit themselves by getting some E European p...y just because they are Americans.
And also, while in the US the culture fosters confidence, it also gives young people an overinflated view of themselves. How about, when in Ukraine, you walk up to the mirror and take a good look at yourself and see how well you stack up against a good looking local guy of whom there is a plenty. While many Filipinas dream of mixing their brown blood with a former colonial master no matter how old, fat and ugly he is so that the kids will have higher noses and whiter skin and so that they family would now have a bit more than $70 a month that a local guy can provide, Ukrainian girls have no such needs. They want good looking guys who are fun to be with. The local way, that is.
Like these guys?
Otherwise, well, you guys better have enough money to make ladies interested in you or well, head for the Philippines like I do.
A brain is a terrible thing to wash!
In a few days I'll be going to Ukraine to meet a dozen women through a dating website. I previously visited Ukraine 3 years ago. When I arrived in the city of Zaparozhye, I had made the mistake of not booking accommodation. The translator called me before I arrived and reassured me that it was taken care of. When I arrived she took me to an apartment that I could stay at and told me it would cost Â£120 per night. I think my date owned the apartment, although the translator said it belonged to the agency. It was a nice flat but fairly small. I agreed to stay but only for 1 night rather than my previously intended 2 nights. My date then arrived and her and the translator took me to an expensive restaurant. We then went out again for another meal later in the evening. By the time I had paid the translator another Â£150 for her day''s work, the whole 24 hours had probably cost me nearly Â£400 (around $650). The next day I felt a bit annoyed as it felt like I had been taken for a bit of a ride, and my date never seemed very interested in me. Later on my trip I went to Simferopol, Crimea and met another women. I wanted to visit a historial palace on the south coast near Yalta, and the women said that she could get a taxi and meet me at my hotel, then we could go there in the same taxi. I should have asked how much it would be, as at the end the day I was told it was Â£150 (around $250). I reluctantly paid the amount but told her that we would not be able to travel to another place we had wanted to go to the next day, as this would have also meant going by taxi.
You'll be wondering why I'm bothering to go to Ukraine again, but I hope I've learned from my experiences, and won't repeat them again. It's better to just meet a women for just a coffee first and if she seems genuine then meet again for dinner and possibly take it further. And never let the women arrange accommodation for your or book a taxi, as she could use it as an opportunty to make a lot of money.
Well my accommodations were setup by Larisa when I went to Ukraine. I didn't overpay, $100 for three days, two nights in one room flat. It was on the, well very Soviet of Kiev proper among typical low cost housing. The reason why Larisa pick it was because it was down the street from her... The subway stop was across the street, so it convenient. I had to spend the night in another flat because the owner wanted use of his flat for some other reason. For $50 I stayed in another flat, this time Larisa spent the night however.
This is the classic - WOVO (Write One, Visit One) strategy and convenient since I was already in Mainland Western Europe (Germany). Including buy some groceries I spent maybe $400US total for three days and nights in Kiev including plane ticket.
Here's what I would do if you plan on doing this totally on your own.
Be highly organized!
I would plan on meeting as many women as I could in a centralized area to keep cost down. Agencies are not all evil and there are some trusted sites I would use. You should be meeting more than two or three women and don't spend months talking to them online, increasing expectations on both sides. What you should do is let some women know you're interested in them but only within maybe a week or two of hitting town. This lets the women know your serious about meeting a woman for marriage and not just for fun times.
As for a flat or hotel or whatever, PM me and I'll give you some links to places that offer affordable housing, usually to business travelers. Its still affordable for the average person.
Find a regular spot you're comfortable with in town and choose to meet there first. This way you can see by her mannerisms how she feels about how you look and what you have to say. From there you have you option of extending this meeting into an actual date, setting up something for the next day or two or you can just say there's no spark and I don't want to waste your time.
This way your spending the least amount of time and money gauging interest of the women.
If you need to print our profile and keep spread sheets I would do it. Hide this information from your dates however. I would use something like drop box or encrypt the information so it can't be read by anybody without knowing the code to open it. I would personally refrain from printing it out actually.
Depending on how long you want to be in town(s), you should be seeing at least 2-3 women per day. You're entire day should be filled with meeting women. This is where doing on your own becomes an issue. Between two or three sites, I don't have enough "favorites" to see that many women in a day. To keep cost down you need to keep it one general area as well.
I also wouldn't rule out Russia. Yes I know you have to pay for a Visa and all that, but because of that reasoning, Ukraine is flooded, while interest in Russian women has dropped to a trickle. Russian women are no less deserving and you should consider them as well.
Two women per day at 5 days is 10 women per week. Ten days in town, you should meet 20 women. The problem is that you'll meet various women on these dating sites.
For me I'm Black so only certain women are going to be interested in me. I personally think that gives me an advantage and narrows down my selection for me.
Feel free to PM me
I think this view is a bit simplistic honestly. PI women are concerned more about matting with an Anglo more than how much money is in his pocket? Thinking if he had the wherewithal to visit PI, he must have a little money.
I don't think that makes them less materialist however, maybe if you keep then in PI, but once exposed to Western way of life and standard of living, it will change. The Heritage Foundation may believe our poor people have it too good with flat screen tv's, xbox game systems and central ac. That's because they use out dated cost of living indexing like the Federal Government does.
I think its safe to assume that if you can afford to go to Ukraine/Russia, you have some wherewithal. As I said in another thread, even working at Pep Boys I qualified for K-1 sponsorship. In reality it would be a struggle if she wasn't working, but possible.
I agree with the professionals in the MOB industry that say you should be very cautious of women under 25. Many of these women if they haven't been married or don't have children are not all that serious about you, especially if your advanced age (over 35). Its NORMAL for 10 year age differences but 5-10 years is becoming very normal with women. However women inside the Western European/North American men market know that their future husband is likely 10-15 years older than them. This why you should be looking at women in their late 20's, early 30's. Not everybody is going to be like Mark and Anna (41 and 19 at the time they met), you're likely to be more like Lawrence and Alona (38 and 28) and that should be acceptable to most if not all. If you don't find that acceptable, you should really take a long look at what your doing.
I still think and nothing I have seen has changed this is that most men can blame themselves for not finding the right woman instead of blaming the women for being herself and you finding it unacceptable later.
"Depending on how long you want to be in town(s), you should be seeing at least 2-3 women per day. You're entire day should be filled with meeting women. This is where doing on your own becomes an issue. Between two or three sites, I don't have enough "favorites" to see that many women in a day. To keep cost down you need to keep it one general area as well. "
In practice, you cannot find women you like or who like you who live in the same city to meet! They will be at all ends of the country. I guess you can ask them to come to where you live, but in general they won't, so you have to budget extra money for travel..Its an excellent idea not to let the women plan your trip or find accomodation as you will be ripped off.
About Russia - this isn't a country you can go to on a whim as you can only get a visa at your own countries' Embassy & it takes time if you do it. You really HAVE TO go to a agent to get a Russian visa, as the local Russian embassy won't want to disappoint them, but will LOVE losing your passport & documents! By the way - YOU CAN NEVER POST YOUR APPLICATION TO A RUSSIAN EMBASSY - you must always go in person or pay the agent to go in person.
"There's this accusation that the Ukrainian girls are all looking for money. Well, how much? If they were truely gold-diggers, that would be one thing... Why would they want to leave their home to be worse off someplace else? Taking them to a nice restaurant shouldn't be a big deal either. And if everything went well, where was he expecting to take them afterwards, his hostel? No privacy. You need to think about the woman's needs for once and he didn't do it."
What Ukranian girls want is to live in the Ukraine with 1/2 YOUR money & Ukranian men want ALL your money! They have various scams to get it - e.g. taxi rip-offs. When you understand this, you know to kick these people to the kerb. Life in the Ukraine is abysimal - minimum wage is like $US10 a day! But most professional people in Kiev earn around $1000 a month - not enough for a great life. Real estate prices have collapsed & petty crime is terrible. But they do love their country & only 8% of foreign brides are still in the USA 1 year later, so they really do want to stay in the Ukraine with 1/2 your money!!
"Woman is a violent and uncontrolled animal... If you allow them to achieve complete equality with men, do you think they will be easier to live with? Not at all. Once they have achieved equality, they will be your masters." Cato the Elder
To a point your right, it will be extremely difficult to find enough women to date in one part of the country. That said, you can TRY and centralize this process as much as possible; That means you may have to use a service/agency to help you pick up the slack.
The difficulties you mention about visiting Russia has put a damper on Western Men going to Russia and increased activity in Ukraine, where instances of scams, rips-offs and gold digging women have come with them.
About your last paragraph though; I know minimum wage and other poverty factors are thrown around various web sites that talk about marrying women. It revolves around the man being the Savior or the Hero, saving women from their difficult lives. Since we're not Hero's to our Western counterparts unless you're trying to play Captain Save A Hoe saving women from their horrible selection of men and being irresponsible by having children with these men. This again proves that men need to feel like A Hero to the women he desires.
I still put the blame of the failure of these relationships mostly on men. When you hear their stories, there's usually a time somewhere before the marriage where an obvious Red Flag is raised. Since men are "Fixers", they believe its only a minor problem, like object poverty for example... Not fully understanding how it impacted the woman he's involved with. This is blinded by a lust for a woman and the idea of no longer being alone.
That's why I'm a fan of making it PLAIN AND SIMPLE. You are marrying ME not a Lifestyle. If you want to marry a lifestyle, then I'm not for you, just that simple.
I agree with you - men should call off the marriage when they see red flags (like the wife running-you-down to her friends in the Ukranian language - you don't need to speak this language to know what she's saying about you). I think marrying any woman & taking her back to your country is a BAD IDEA - how do you know she's not a passport-digger? You won't know until its too late if you don't listen to the many red flags before you marry.
Another terrible idea id thinking she will "LOVE YOU" for saving her from her life in poverty - NO SHE WON'T. She'll become an entitled, narcissistic, evil Western woman in a few months of coming to your country & you won't be able to control her. Men in the Ukraine can control their wives to a point as their women can't call the Ukranian Police & get him dragged away. Divorce doesn't often result in the woman taking 50% of the man's assets, so Ukranian women don't threaten their husnads with divorce all the time, but she will to you in your country!!
In summary, its a terrible idea "saving" a woman from her poverty & taking her back to your country.
Last edited by polya on September 4th, 2011, 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Woman is a violent and uncontrolled animal... If you allow them to achieve complete equality with men, do you think they will be easier to live with? Not at all. Once they have achieved equality, they will be your masters." Cato the Elder
Well, today is my last day in Ukraine having supposed to have met up with sixteen women. It's been an enlightening but often frustrating experience. Only three out of the twelve women spoke enough English to communicate without the reliance of a translator. Having already paid the agency a significant amount of money, the cost rises further by having to pay each translator 120 hygrivna per hour, as most of the girls have their own personal translator accompanying them.
Two women cancelled and two stood me up on the date by not showing up or answering their phone, which is the worst thing you can do. One woman I met was not the same women as from her profile. With this one, I think I was set up the translator as her happy, friendly, smile quickly soured to a tetchy moodiness when I told her that I was only going to pay for one hour translation and that I that I wasn't going to buy them a meal. My date though didn't seem too bothered and said she was rather pleased as she could now go to a family relation's birthday party.
Don't get me wrong, online dating is a good money earner for the Ukranian economy and there are many honest, decent people who make their living out of it. The agency staff were professional and helpful but they told me that they had been having problems with the affiliate agency that supplies the women.
I'd be curious to know what the stats are in terms of percentage of guys who come here and successfully find someone. What I've learned to appreciate is that unless you speak enough Russian or Ukranian to communicate proficiently, can offer a lifestyle involving a sizeable amount of money and also that there is not an age-gap of more than 10 years then you might have a better than remote chance of finding a serious relationship. Otherwise, you're probably wasting your time and probably better to persevere with dating women in your own country.
My experience agrees with the OP. I went to Kiev over 10 years ago with a European Connections tour. The women seemed more interested in going to restaurants and nightclubs (which were just opening up back then) then in a husband. At the end of the tour, I asked my translator who was an Orthodox Christian if any of the women were sincere and she indicated that she didn't think so. Also, at the time, I knew a guy who went there for six months to live, he went to all of the agencies, and came back disillusioned and told me they were all out for money without any exception.
Its hard to say if wife hunting in the Ukraine is a bust, but if you don't do your research it might be a bust!
There are a couple of web sites you can use for DIY. I use Lucky Lovers, that's how I met Larisa. I would also use Elena's Models, very trust worthy and a few men on RU Adventures met their wives on that site.
This takes the agency out of the equation. The only problem is finding what I would call the min 10 women to even make a visit worth while. Recently with a limited search because I'm no longer a paying member, I found 6800+ profiles that fit my criteria. That's ALOT of profiles to run through. On Elena's its a bit more precise and it comes back with about 50-100 profiles, with two of the women specifically looking for Black Men...
The problem is one woman lives in Uzbekistan, not that ITS a problem but if I can't find 10 women in Uzbekistan, well I would need to do online correspondence (Email, IM, Skype) and of course fly there. Its about $200 more to see her, (32yr, Single Mom, Speaks English, Computer Operator). Add I think its $65 for the Visa. Like most women over 30 that have children (daughter is 13), I wouldn't say desperate but she will appreciate the interest and if she finds me attractive (because I find her very attractive...) who knows Write One, Visit One has worked several times before, especially on Elena's Models that seem to be the common theme.
Why WOVO works better it seems for Elena's more than say AFA is slightly puzzling. On the ABC broadcast all three men featured failed to connect with the women they contacted ahead of time. While on Elena's its story after story of a guy writing one woman and he getting on the plane to see her, resulting in marriage. Most men don't make more than two trips.
You can read the success stories here - http://www.elenasmodels.com/testimonials.htm
If you don't know what I want its under 30, no children preferred, not locked in concrete however. A woman with children is going to be concerned about quality of life issues however.
Traveller, I highly suggest RU Adventures for advice and research though some of the members are a bit gruff, its still a good place to learn.
As for stats according to the Congressional study from 2005 about 2,000-3,000 men a year. Or as many sites/agencies put it about 3-5% of the men that start looking online.
I understand your frustration with this. Its not easy, its mentally draining and time consuming. Many believe the pool of women in Ukraine is a bit tainted, making it hard to find a woman. IMHO it shouldn't take more than two trips. For many it doesn't take more than two. Anybody that goes several times, I think the problem is them and not the women available.
Having said that, you may want to speak to Mark and read his book. It seems he's working hard to find sincere women, when many other places don't bother with that. I might also recommend any of the US ran services like Eduard's, though its pretty expensive (About 20K) his success rate is very high as he gets women from outside the agency loop in Russia and walks you through the process. I would also recommend Kiev Connections, another agency ran by an American and Kherson Girls, yet another agency ran by an American.
AFA's tours do work, its just a question of the sincerity of the women and how good a judge of character you are. You mentioned pounds are you British?