Happier Abroad Discussion Forum

Hi all,
Momopi told me recently that most dateless men in America will not consider going abroad, that's why this site doesn't appeal to most people, even if its message and claims are true.

If that's so, then why are most dateless men in the US unwilling to go overseas? Any theories or explanations?

I thought wanting to travel was part of human nature?

If we look across East Asia, 5% of marriages in Japan are "international", compared with 9.5% in Taiwan and 13% in S. Korea. The vast majority of these marriages are local men marrying foreign women.

How does that compare to Americans? hehehehe.

I think its either that so many American men are simply very skeptical about women, all women, period. Or they do think foreign women are better but are afraid to go. When I got back from Ukraine, to my surprise there were a lot of men saying to me, "Are you nuts!" and "Weren't you afraid?" I think it's probably a little of both reasons. But money could be another factor too.

It could be. One time, I had this redneck friend who was a genius at fixing cars and selling stuff on Ebay. But clueless when it came to women. He said he'd never date a foreign girl cause of the language barrier, and cause he wanted a red blooded American of his own kind. So that's another reason, wanting someone of your own kind, culture, and language.

The language and cultural barrier does indeed make a huge difference. Several months ago I had sex with an asian woman, and although she was feminine and kind, the fact we both kept having to repeat oursevles several times until the other understood did make me feel pretty uncomfortable.

Moving to another country and changing yourself so you can assimilate into their culture tends to be the best bet for getting together with foreign women. Hpwever, it requires more work then most are willing to give, besides the fact that most (myself included) prefer to stay near friends and family.

Wow, 13% foreign marriage among South Korean men! That's fantastic, unbelievable.

I guess with South Korea being so close to Viet Nam, China, and other developing 3rd world nation, its hardly a problem financially or time-wise to find good quality foreign wife.

As far as marriage in the west, Ive read some reports that current rates are the lowest in recorded history. Ive also seen a graph that shows the K-1 visa application rate literally skyrocketing straight up beginning in the late 80's.

But it looks like South Korean men have us beat when it comes to kicking shrill feminazi trash to the curb where it belongs.

Many people prefer to stay in the same place they've been. They aren't willing to travel unless if they risk their jobs unless they can manage to find a well-paying job overseas. The thought of going abroad permanently with no means of a backup plan to keep yourself afloat in the long run sounds like a bad idea to me. For me, it's to work and study hard till i find a good job to support myself.

I wouldn't go to another country unless I know the language well. I don't like communicating with another person using gestures to repeat myself. I find the idea to communicate with a monolingual russian woman using gestures to be annoying.

most dateless men are probably feeling that they don't have enough money to go overseas, some kind of language/cultural barrier, or they want a woman within the same cultural sphere as they are, even if they have to deal with some feminist bitch.

Agreed, it is a challenge to find a good foreign wife, but its worth it.

If at least not worth it, its preferable to marriage to a shrill neurotic axe-murderer in training American female. And cheaper then a divorce to boot.

The seemingly "easier" alternative is often much more costly. But its nearly pointless to tell that to any men in America. It all boils down to seeing who has the will and determination to actually pull it off.

Not everyone has the balls to climb that particular mountain.

Enishi wrote:The language and cultural barrier does indeed make a huge difference. Several months ago I had sex with an asian woman, and although she was feminine and kind, the fact we both kept having to repeat oursevles several times until the other understood did make me feel pretty uncomfortable.

Moving to another country and changing yourself so you can assimilate into their culture tends to be the best bet for getting together with foreign women. Hpwever, it requires more work then most are willing to give, besides the fact that most (myself included) prefer to stay near friends and family.

W: That's a pity that most think that way. I personally think that a language barrier makes a relationship more stimulating and exotic. And besides, you don't need to talk to have sex. Body language is universal in that situation

If I'm with a foreign woman who doesn't speak English, I just carry around a dictionary in her language and mine. If I can get an electronic dictionary, even better. That usually gets across my meaning.

The only thing you will sacrifice is being able to have deep conversations. The dictionary can translate most basic things.

Plus it's a good exercise in training oneself to read body language as well.

I had these kind of experiences when I first went to Russia. And I always got around them. It was very stimulating. But you also have to have good communication skills, which I do have, so it came easier for me.

I wasn't just talking about moving overseas to find love though. I also meant just going overseas to date and bring back a wife. Most are unwilling to do that.

I guess only those who THRIVE on diversity and the novelty of something foreign and exotic, are suited for this type of endeavor.

wraith wrote:Many people prefer to stay in the same place they've been. They aren't willing to travel unless if they risk their jobs unless they can manage to find a well-paying job overseas. The thought of going abroad permanently with no means of a backup plan to keep yourself afloat in the long run sounds like a bad idea to me. For me, it's to work and study hard till i find a good job to support myself.

I wouldn't go to another country unless I know the language well. I don't like communicating with another person using gestures to repeat myself. I find the idea to communicate with a monolingual russian woman using gestures to be annoying.

most dateless men are probably feeling that they don't have enough money to go overseas, some kind of language/cultural barrier, or they want a woman within the same cultural sphere as they are, even if they have to deal with some feminist bitch.

W: I didn't find it annoying when I first went to Russia. It was a great chance to practice my acting and improvisation skills.

For example, when I wanted to ask where the ATM machine was, and no one knew what I meant, I then took out a credit card, acted like I was going to insert it into something in midair, then pushed buttons with my other finger, then with my voice I made electronic sounds like what an ATM would make when you push the buttons, then I used that same hand to take out cash or I said "dengi" or "money", and then it was understood what I was referring to.

Another time, when I was trying to explain to a Russian girl what I meant when I said that the girls here were like Cinderella, she didn't know what I meant. So in order to explain it to her, I used my limited Russian vocabulary and managed to come up with this in Russian: "girl, beautiful dress, 12am midnight, no more beautiful dress". It was then that she knew the story I was referring to.

So you see, you gotta be creative in things like that. I know some are not like that. But I thrived in it. I had a love and joy of communicating, as well as acting, so this came naturally to me. Plus, at the time, being in Russia gave me a sense of excitement and energy that I never had before.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/su ... 240045_ITM

International marriages in South Korea: the significance of nationality and ethnicity.

Publication: Journal of Population Research

Publication Date: 01-NOV-06
Author: Lee, Yean-Ju ; Seol, Dong-Hoon ; Cho, Sung-Nam
How to access the full article: Free access to all articles is available courtesy of your local library. To access the full article click the "See the full article" button below. You will need your US library barcode or password.

COPYRIGHT 2006 The Australian Population Association

International marriage has increased drastically in South Korea in recent years, and by 2005, 13.6 per cent of marriages involved a foreign spouse. The purpose of this study is twofold: to explore the demographic demand and supply of foreign spouses in the marriage market in South Korea, and to examine how social positions of foreign wives vary by their place in the marriage market as determined by their nationality and ethnicity. Data show that the demand for foreign spouses is particularly strong among rural never-married and urban divorced Korean men. Among foreign wives, Chinese, especially Korean Chinese, tend to marry divorced Koreans, partly because many of them have also been married before. The Korean Chinese are the most autonomous among five groups of foreign wives examined, showing the highest rates of Korean citizenship, divorce-separation, and employment. Southeast Asian women tend to marry rural never-married men, and they are the most adaptive to the host society in the way they show among the highest rates of Korean citizenship and employment (after controlling for their poor Korean proficiency and short duration in Korea). Their divorce-separation rate is the lowest regardless of such control. This study demonstrates that marriage migrants' adaptation to the host society differs significantly by nationality and ethnic origin.

Keywords: International marriage, South Korea, citizenship, nationality, ethnicity, remarriage, Chinese, Southeast Asian

**********

International marriages and multiethnic families are becoming important current topics in the media and in national politics in South Korea. Heins Ward, who is black and a distinguished football player in the United States, was the top news story during the ten days he visited South Korea with his Korean mother in April 2006. The media frenzy touched various issues never publicly discussed before, especially regarding discrimination against mixed-race children in Korea. Owing to this outcry, the government promised legislation recognizing the citizenship of children of cohabiting international couples. (1)

International marriages through the 1980s were largely restricted to Korean women marrying foreign husbands, and most of them lived in a foreign country. Many of these marriages took place in the context of the Korean War and the continuing American military presence in South Korea (Song 1974; Park 1982; Yuh 2002). Only since the 1990s have immigrant foreign spouses become a visible population in Korea and, together with the even larger population of immigrant labourers, they have challenged the long-held image of a homogeneous Korean society. With the emergence of these immigrant populations, various agents, including human rights advocacy groups, local government offices, and scholars, have studied their social circumstances. They highlight the hardships that immigrant spouses face, including the commercialization and anonymity of broker-arranged marriages (quick matching based on superficial information about the other party); conflicts with in-laws and related violence in the family; and limited access to social services (Kim 1998; KWDC 2003; Yi 2003; Yoon 2004; Yoon and Yim 2004; Lee 2005). However, most of these studies are exploratory and use small samples.

This study attempts to provide a more comprehensive view linking the marriage patterns of foreign spouses to their social positions in the host country, using national data from marriage registration statistics and an in-depth survey of immigrant wives (including those who are divorced or separated). (2) We highlight the variation by nationality and ethnicity of immigrant wives, especially contrasting two major groups: Korean Chinese and Southeast Asians. The next section discusses the demographic characteristics of the marriage market, highlighting the population segments involved in international marriages. Then follows a brief reflection on the social circumstances other than demographic that facilitate international marriages. The third section uses data from a national survey of 945 foreign wives (Seol et al. 2005) and examines their social positions in South Korea using multivariate analysis. Then follows a conclusion.

Demography of the marriage market in South Korea

In South Korea the percentage of total marriages that involve a foreign spouse increased threefold over the four-year period between 2001 and 2005, from 4.6 to 13.6 per cent (see Table 1). The theories of international labour migration view labour shortages in receiving societies as a primary cause of worker immigration, but labour shortage is usually limited to or particularly severe in certain segments of the structurally differentiated labour markets (Massey et al. 1993). National data, such as marriage registration and population census statistics, show that international marriage is particularly relevant to two groups of men, never-married men in rural areas and previously married men of low socio-economic status in urban areas, although the most recent reports suggest that international marriage is becoming more prevalent also among urban never-married men (Seoul Economy 2006).

Rural never-married men

With the rapid pace of industrialization from the 1960s, many rural young women migrated to urban areas for factory jobs; sex-selective rural-urban migration continued in the 1980s while the service sector expanded. Therefore, the sex imbalance in the rural population has worsened through the past few decades. For example, in rural villages (myun areas), for ages 20-24 the sex ratios (number of males per 100 females) were 126, 151, 188, and 162 in 1970, 1980, 1990, and 2000, respectively. The analogous numbers for ages 25-29 were slightly lower but still above 100, reaching 131 in 2000 (KNSO 2005). The sex imbalance among single rural people is more severe: in 2000, for ages 25-29 and 30-34, sex ratios among never-married persons were more than 300 in rural villages (myun) and more than 200 in town areas (eup). (3) It is not surprising that about one in four (27 per cent in 2004) marriages in rural areas involve foreign wives.

Marriage registration statistics show that more than 50 per cent of foreign wives live in provincial areas, containing medium and small cities as well as rural towns and villages,4 whereas only about 40 per cent of foreign husbands do so (Table 2). Provincial residence is most common among wives from Southeast Asia, at about 70 per cent. Among foreign husbands, provincial residence does not vary by nationality.

In the next 20 years, the male excess among rural young adults is expected to worsen as the cohorts born in the 1980s and 1990s reach marriageable age. The sex ratio at birth went beyond 110 in the mid-1980s and reached a peak, 116.5, in 1990. Since then it has steadily fallen but is still above the natural ratio of 105-106: it was 110 in 2002 and then 108 in 2004. In 2005 the male excess was the greatest for ages 1019 and the next highest for ages 0-9, foretelling a still worse sex imbalance for young adult males looking for brides in the coming years. Thus, a shortage of females may be observed even in some urban areas.

Divorced men

Less well known than the increase in foreign wives in rural areas is the increasing trend of divorced men marrying foreigners. Nationally, divorce rates increased rapidly during the past decade. The crude divorce rate (number of divorces per year per 1000 population) was only 1.1 in 1990 but it reached 3.5 by 2003; it fell back to 2.9 in 2004 and 2.6 in 2005, which is still double the level of a decade ago (Figure 1). Ages at divorce are concentrated in the thirties among men and more evenly distributed in the twenties and thirties among women. Remarriages make up an increasing proportion of all marriages: in 1990 about one in ten marriages involved remarriage of either spouse or both, but in 2004 and 2005 a quarter of all marriages were in this category (Figure 2; KNSO 2005).

Marriage registration data show that remarriages constitute a much larger proportion among international marriages than in the national total. Among Korean men with international marriages in 2001, 32 per cent were remarried, but the percentage increased...

Read the full article for free courtesy of your local library.

jtest28 wrote:I think its either that so many American men are simply very skeptical about women, all women, period. Or they do think foreign women are better but are afraid to go. When I got back from Ukraine, to my surprise there were a lot of men saying to me, "Are you nuts!" and "Weren't you afraid?" I think it's probably a little of both reasons. But money could be another factor too.

Exactly. Most Americans are conditioned by the media to think that all the other countries in the world are dangerous and primitive. After traveling in the Czech Republic and Hungary, my first surprise was how NORMAL everything was.

Sure the language is very different and the culture is somewhat different, but the people are still essentially ordinary people going about their business. The American media has people thinking that anyplace east of Austria has people who wear fur hats and carry AK-47s.

Before I left the US, however, many people reacted very uncomfortably when I told them I was going to Hungary. They positioned their mouths into fake smiles and said "Great..." even though they clearly thought it was a crazy idea to go to such a country which is rarely mentioned in the American media. Only if you say you are going to France, Italy, or the UK will you be forgiven in the US.

Right now, I'm living in a medium-sized city in Hungary and there are some big supermarkets and electronics stores which are every bit as good as American stores, and I can get high speed internet for about 15 dollars a month. Basically, the services are just as good but cheaper than in America. The only frustrating thing is that my mailbox has a big slot in it so any idiot can stick junk mail in it or pull out my mail. That's why I have my mail sent to the school where I teach English.

My apartment is free and the teachers at my school are very nice to me. The students at my school are incredibly kind to each other in a way which I've rarely seen in America. There is no violence or fear of violence at this school. It's a kind and caring place where people respect each other as human beings.

wraith wrote: I wouldn't go to another country unless I know the language well.

I know how you feel, however it can be very difficult to learn many uncommon languages in America unless you live in a big city. For example, it would be very hard to find somebody to teach you Hungarian or Slovakian in the US. Although if you study some Russian, it would help with Slovakian. Nothing but Hungarian helps with Hungarian, however. Like Japanese, it's basically in its own language group.

Sometimes you just have to go and do your best to learn the language when you're there. That's what I'm doing and hopefully I'll succeed eventually.

I encourage everybody to go overseas at least to visit. Don't let the American media scare you away from some very nice and normal countries which have much less violent crime than in the US.

When I visit Budapest, I feel very safe there when I walk at night. It's a cool city. Stay away from the strip clubs there though. I've read about foreigners getting seriously ripped off there.

Well, Hungarian is a member of the finno-ugric family, but it belongs to the ugrian branch, related to two other ugric languages, khanty and mansi, both spoken in Russia. I had a German teacher (who is an ethnic Hungarian Jew) who told me that even though Hungarian is distantly related to Finnic languages, he doesn't understand a word.

Sure, I agree that learning a language of the same language family is better.

A Russian can pick up another Slavic language easily, but when it comes to Armenian, Lithuanian, Hindi or Farsi, it's slightly harder. And when it comes to Japanese, Turkish or Arabic, it's even harder.

I do love languages, but i like to make conlangs rather than learning a language.

Jackal said: "Most Americans are conditioned by the media to think that all the other countries in the world are dangerous and primitive."

So true. I think fear and misinformation are two big reasons of why more American men don't go abroad. The American cultural matrix (the media is a huge part of this) has people brainwashed to a sometimes alarming extent. Example: I lived in Norway for several years (one of the richest, safest and most civil nations on earth), and when I returned home I was flabergasted how many Americans asked me if they had electricity or television there!

Others went so far as to suggest that people didn't have freedom in Norway ( oh, the ignorance!).

Of course, the other big reason is financial, and feeling confident in their ability to make money in another country. But with the American economy imploding at breakneck speed, that's should be less and less of an issue these days.

After all, if you're going to be just scraping to get by anyway, you might as well be doing it in a wonderful place, with wonderful women, instead of in an expensive, socially-rigid place that doesn't feed your soul

I think one of the big reasons is that there is a language barrier. That's why Germany and the Philipines are a good choice. Both are bilingual countires. In Germany a good 85% of the people here speak very good English. There are areas though--the eastern part which was part of the communists block--where only the younger Germans speak good english. Germany truly is an international country. It's quite amazing. You can easily live here without having to speak a word of German.