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The Big Social Catch-22 in America

What's your story? Discussions your reasons for going abroad.

Moderators: jamesbond, fschmidt

Postby jamesbond » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:05 pm

J.Adama wrote:There's something else though. Making someone an outcast allows for people to increase their own status.

If you feel you can push someone out of the group and make them an outcast, then you must somehow be above them. You are better because you can keep them out. Those people you pushed out are flawed. You are better than them.

Making others outcasts automatically increases your own status. So people start looking for opportunities to make others outcasts, especially those who dont fit the mold.
In particular the people with the lowest self esteem are the ones who go about hunting for people to ostracize the most. They are the ones who barely fit in themselves, just the others are too afraid of them to kick them out of the "in-group."

In other words, the act of ostracizing others itself is a way to gain social status. It also serves a dual purpose for those who are naturally full of hate.
I think many men can outgrow this by the time they are 25 or so. Whereas most women will be stuck in this social construct nonsense forever, even in their retirement homes there will be cliques of cool people and those untouchables.

The funny thing about "status" is, if you don't have it, women in America want nothing to do with you! However, if you do have "status" women will be all over you like flies on shit! The pickup artist "Mystery" says, a man's status is very important for women! He tells guys to NOT go out to bars and clubs with guys who are "undesirable types" (meaning guys with low status, like guys who are ugly or overweight, or don't dress fashionable).

He says, women need to see you in public with "high status" male friends (and of course, you need to be "high status" yourself). It's a shame that women in America can only see men in light of whether or not he has "high status." Welcome to the dating scene in modern day America! :D
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Postby Adama » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:45 pm

Honestly I dont even think being high status is enough to be successful. It is just a pre-requisite. There are tons of men who have everything going for them but no women on their arms.
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Postby Jackal » Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:49 pm

J.Adama wrote:Honestly I dont even think being high status is enough to be successful. It is just a pre-requisite. There are tons of men who have everything going for them but no women on their arms.

And conversely there are some unemployed emotionally unstable wigger whiteboys in the US who can somehow manipulate hot dumb girls into not only dating them but also into buying things for them. You think to yourself, "Why is this chick with that cowardly piece of shit?" but she seems legimately happy.

As long as you don't have one iota of intelligence, conscience, or self-control, you can make it in the US. Only the sociopaths survive there.

I remember people on YouTube trashing Steve Hoca because he said something along the lines of "I know a guy who is good-looking and who has good grades and he still can't get a date." People called Steve clueless and said, "Obviously women don't care about your grades!" That's certainly true, but Steve was talking on the spot and I think what he meant to say was that the guy was intelligent and that intelligence should count for something.

Intelligence should indeed matter, but it certainly doesn't in the US, at least not if it doesn't directly relate to making money. To an American, the phrase "being intelligent and cultured" probably means "knowing about the history of American TV shows and sports."
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Postby Adama » Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:31 pm

Jackal wrote:
J.Adama wrote:Honestly I dont even think being high status is enough to be successful. It is just a pre-requisite. There are tons of men who have everything going for them but no women on their arms.

And conversely there are some unemployed emotionally unstable wigger whiteboys in the US who can somehow manipulate hot dumb girls into not only dating them but also into buying things for them. You think to yourself, "Why is this chick with that cowardly piece of shit?" but she seems legimately happy.

As long as you don't have one iota of intelligence, conscience, or self-control, you can make it in the US. Only the sociopaths survive there.

I remember people on YouTube trashing Steve Hoca because he said something along the lines of "I know a guy who is good-looking and who has good grades and he still can't get a date." People called Steve clueless and said, "Obviously women don't care about your grades!" That's certainly true, but Steve was talking on the spot and I think what he meant to say was that the guy was intelligent and that intelligence should count for something.

Intelligence should indeed matter, but it certainly doesn't in the US, at least not if it doesn't directly relate to making money. To an American, the phrase "being intelligent and cultured" probably means "knowing about the history of American TV shows and sports."


Jackal, tell me what you think about this.

In countries where the men are "not nice" to women (as in men do what they want, the law isnt on the women's side; with or without the men being physically abusive), the women are mostly looking for a decent guy.

In countries where the men are born and raised to be nice and treat women decently and with the utmost respect, and to hold women above themselves, the women never appreciate it. Rather, they crave men who treat them badly.

But somehow the women in the brutish countries rate their happiness on self report surverys higher than the women in the extremely feminist societies.
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Postby BellaRuth » Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:46 pm

J.Adama wrote:
In countries where the men are "not nice" to women (as in men do what they want, the law isnt on the women's side; with or without the men being physically abusive), the women are mostly looking for a decent guy.

In countries where the men are born and raised to be nice and treat women decently and with the utmost respect, and to hold women above themselves, the women never appreciate it. Rather, they crave men who treat them badly.

But somehow the women in the brutish countries rate their happiness on self report surverys higher than the women in the extremely feminist societies.


Would like to butt in as I thought this was a good point.

My 2 cents.

I think women who like 'bad boys' are doing so because of biology. Women do want a nice man to treat them well, obviously, but on a deeper level they are also programmed to like men who are, pretty much, the warriors that win the battles. The perfect guy would be really strong, protective and able to defend his girl, particularly as she was likely to be pregnant and raising children for most of her life, so very vulnerable. He also needs to be a good provider as she wouldn't be the one bringing down the proverbial mammoth.

In modern-day America where this woman is surrounded by 'nice guys', the bad boy stands out, not because he is an asshole but because he looks stronger and more able to physically protect than smiley Dan at the office, and more likely to get that scary mammoth. So the girl tries to impress the bad boy, as he isn't licking the soles of her shoes, and enjoys finally getting his attention over the other girls. Then, if he is an asshole, she becomes absorbed by the idea that she can change him, make him fall in love and become protective and supportive- to make the all-round perfect guy.

I never go for bad boys in real life as I can't be bothered trying to change people but can see the appeal in pictures etc. :wink: And this is where I think it comes from.

As for women rating themselves happier in poorer countries, I think rather it is to do with less expectations and more appreciation of the simple things in life, similar to the contrast between today and a few decades ago in 'developed' countries.
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Postby Jackal » Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:51 pm

J.Adama wrote:Jackal, tell me what you think about this.

In countries where the men are "not nice" to women (as in men do what they want, the law isnt on the women's side; with or without the men being physically abusive), the women are mostly looking for a decent guy.

In countries where the men are born and raised to be nice and treat women decently and with the utmost respect, and to hold women above themselves, the women never appreciate it. Rather, they crave men who treat them badly.

But somehow the women in the brutish countries rate their happiness on self report surverys higher than the women in the extremely feminist societies.


I'm skeptical of those surveys. Lots of Americans will say they're "really happy" even if they're on seven antidepressants and have 100k in credit card debt, so it's hard to get an honest picture of what the women really think.

If I assume for a moment that those surveys are legitimate, then my theory would be that each gender likes to be in a society in which it has to work less and has an easier time. Basically, everybody likes to be in control. It's probably harder on one level for women in more traditional countries because they are obligated to do more things (cook, clean, etc.). On the other hand, if these same women are closer to their friends and relatives, then they have an emotional support network which makes things easier.

One has to be very careful with surveys. Often the person writing the article is pushing some angle or another. It's easy to distort data.
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Postby Winston » Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:53 pm

Bella,
Those are very valid reasons that make sense.

But then I wonder, how come Filipinas do not naturally go after bad boys instead of nice guys? Why does it seem to be a Western woman thing?
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Postby BellaRuth » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:05 pm

Winston wrote:But then I wonder, how come Filipinas do not naturally go after bad boys instead of nice guys? Why does it seem to be a Western woman thing?


Not sure, how are the guys in the Philippines?

If the men are nice... no idea. Maybe culture overrides it to some extent?

Or Filipinas might get the 'authority' thing solved in a different way than tattoos and piercings. They might see authority in foreign guys like the ones on this site, or in money/good careers, or in something else. Just guessing as it's so different.

I read on this site that Filipinas are particularly into sex (after commitment) as they feel they will have a better chance of keeping the man. Which implies Filipino men are prone to going elsewhere if they're not happy. Not a stereotypically 'nice guy' attribute?

If the men are difficult, then they would go for the nice guy, as HE would stand out then as being more stable/protective than the others.
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Postby Adama » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:23 pm

BellaRuth wrote:
Would like to butt in as I thought this was a good point.

My 2 cents.

I think women who like 'bad boys' are doing so because of biology. Women do want a nice man to treat them well, obviously, but on a deeper level they are also programmed to like men who are, pretty much, the warriors that win the battles. The perfect guy would be really strong, protective and able to defend his girl, particularly as she was likely to be pregnant and raising children for most of her life, so very vulnerable. He also needs to be a good provider as she wouldn't be the one bringing down the proverbial mammoth.

In modern-day America where this woman is surrounded by 'nice guys', the bad boy stands out, not because he is an asshole but because he looks stronger and more able to physically protect than smiley Dan at the office, and more likely to get that scary mammoth. So the girl tries to impress the bad boy, as he isn't licking the soles of her shoes, and enjoys finally getting his attention over the other girls. Then, if he is an asshole, she becomes absorbed by the idea that she can change him, make him fall in love and become protective and supportive- to make the all-round perfect guy.

I never go for bad boys in real life as I can't be bothered trying to change people but can see the appeal in pictures etc. :wink: And this is where I think it comes from.

As for women rating themselves happier in poorer countries, I think rather it is to do with less expectations and more appreciation of the simple things in life, similar to the contrast between today and a few decades ago in 'developed' countries.

Well I dont know. I just think they like the men who are scarce.

In societies where women are beat, they want nice guys. In societies where the men are all nice, they want thugs who will beat them.
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So many comments! As an Ameican Male forced to live in LA...

Postby gits » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:06 pm

So many comments! I have to admit that I haven't read them all, so hopefully my comment aren't too irrelevant. As an Ameican Male, previously living abroad for 10 years, but now forced to live in LA to take care of an elderly. I can tell you that I'm quite the shut in and stay alone all day. My grandmother has conditioned herself to be comfortable being alone, so I only check on her 4 -5 times a day. Therefore, I stay in another part of the house alone doing mainly 4 activities. It's like a cage with golden bars.

Being social doesn't really exist, because if I go out into the local area, there really isn't a portal for me to meet available women. I can go to a music bar, where there are usually a few overweight single mothers. I can go to starbucks to meet people, where it seems like the external smoking areas are becoming more and more crowded. Still, it's not really a place where I can really approach the more attractive ladies. I was there last wednesday, and I couldn't help staring down two really attractive girls chatting, however I wouldn't approach them due to the fact I would have come off like a perve.

There was a really attractive lady at the grocery store, but the other day, I asked her an innocent question near my car, and at first, the expression on her face was that of a pre-emptive reaction to an unwelcome come-on.

Was watching TV and an American woman said that the perfect man had "two jobs". I just read the comments of a woman on the youtube video comparing french womne to american women. The (probably american) woman said "Well...if american men were more romantic and not losers or shallow... "

Well if it takes 2 jobs to not be a loser, or shallow, then call me just that. I'd rather do without sex than work for a corporation whose only interest is making money. and I responded to her saying "Hard to get romantic when ones counterpart lives in a fantasy world of man pays for everything , works 2 jobs, cleans the house including blood off the underside of the toilet seat. And the woman can have a nonsexual career focused relationship. Who are you calling a loser and shallow? Now you know why I date foreign women"

I can't wait until I'm able to go back abroad!!!
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Re: So many comments! As an Ameican Male forced to live in L

Postby Adama » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:27 pm

gits wrote:So many comments! I have to admit that I haven't read them all, so hopefully my comment aren't too irrelevant. As an Ameican Male, previously living abroad for 10 years, but now forced to live in LA to take care of an elderly. I can tell you that I'm quite the shut in and stay alone all day. My grandmother has conditioned herself to be comfortable being alone, so I only check on her 4 -5 times a day. Therefore, I stay in another part of the house alone doing mainly 4 activities. It's like a cage with golden bars.

Being social doesn't really exist, because if I go out into the local area, there really isn't a portal for me to meet available women. I can go to a music bar, where there are usually a few overweight single mothers. I can go to starbucks to meet people, where it seems like the external smoking areas are becoming more and more crowded. Still, it's not really a place where I can really approach the more attractive ladies. I was there last wednesday, and I couldn't help staring down two really attractive girls chatting, however I wouldn't approach them due to the fact I would have come off like a perve.

There was a really attractive lady at the grocery store, but the other day, I asked her an innocent question near my car, and at first, the expression on her face was that of a pre-emptive reaction to an unwelcome come-on.

Was watching TV and an American woman said that the perfect man had "two jobs". I just read the comments of a woman on the youtube video comparing french womne to american women. The (probably american) woman said "Well...if american men were more romantic and not losers or shallow... "

Well if it takes 2 jobs to not be a loser, or shallow, then call me just that. I'd rather do without sex than work for a corporation whose only interest is making money. and I responded to her saying "Hard to get romantic when ones counterpart lives in a fantasy world of man pays for everything , works 2 jobs, cleans the house including blood off the underside of the toilet seat. And the woman can have a nonsexual career focused relationship. Who are you calling a loser and shallow? Now you know why I date foreign women"

I can't wait until I'm able to go back abroad!!!


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Postby gits » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:31 pm

Jackal wrote:I don't think it's always a matter of belonging to a clique, but it's a matter of learning a role and playing it to perfection.

For example, if you are playing the role of a rich preppy kid and you move to a new town where you don't know anybody, you have seek out the other rich preppy kids in the area and make a powerful and flawless first impression so that they immediately see that you are "one of them" or are even better at playing the role (dress better, say wittier things, are richer, etc.) than they are.

It's like prison: you either kick someone's ass the first day (make a good first impression) or become someone's bitch (become a social outcast).l.


You nailed it. Good writing.

Jackal wrote:Unfortunately, their default label for men for whom they cannot find a suitable pre-made label is "loser."


NAILED!
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Postby Jackal » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:36 pm

BellaRuth wrote:I think women who like 'bad boys' are doing so because of biology. Women do want a nice man to treat them well, obviously, but on a deeper level they are also programmed to like men who are, pretty much, the warriors that win the battles.


I can understand if women like men who are strong, fit, and tough. If a woman were attracted to a Navy SEAL, I'd say, "Okay, he's in great shape and he's a bad motherf***er. I can respect that."

But what I really hate are all those trendy-poser-wigger-fake-bully "bad boys." I hate when these fakes get credit for being "tough" or "daring" when they're merely doing what the TV has programmed them to do.
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Re: So many comments! As an Ameican Male forced to live in L

Postby Jackal » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:39 pm

J.Adama wrote:Three words, my friend: f**k American women.

Metaphorically only! LOL
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Postby Adama » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:41 pm

Jackal wrote:
BellaRuth wrote:I think women who like 'bad boys' are doing so because of biology. Women do want a nice man to treat them well, obviously, but on a deeper level they are also programmed to like men who are, pretty much, the warriors that win the battles.


I can understand if women like men who are strong, fit, and tough. If a woman were attracted to a Navy SEAL, I'd say, "Okay, he's in great shape and he's a bad motherf***er. I can respect that."

But what I really hate are all those trendy-poser-wigger-fake-bully "bad boys." I hate when these fakes get credit for being "tough" or "daring" when they're merely doing what the TV has programmed them to do.


Yeah it's BS. Women are much more "programmed" by society and TV than those genes. I mean that too. If women were meant to be attracted to such a narrow spectrum of manhood, then the human race would never have gotten off the ground. The whole theory is B.S. Pure nonsense. Nice try at an excuse for their choices though.
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