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Closed Cliquish Cultures vs. Open Social

What's your story? Discussions your reasons for going abroad.

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Re: anti-social

Postby E_Irizarry » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:48 pm

starkeep wrote:8) I have to agree with the anti-social behavior here inthe usa. I have many people my own nationality who act more rude then someone from a foreign country. I may be a victim of electronic harrassment but that is no excuse. I have read where someone fell at wallmart on a sale day and the other people kept right on walking over that person until they eventually died. This is a example of what is going on here noone really cares what happens to anyone unless they are direct family.


Ha! This is somewhat laughable! Why do I say that? ...because even in "direct family", there's an onslaught of dysfunction that's encapsulated within of how "direct family" treats each other in this Calvinist-stoic-*ss society.
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Postby Winston » Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:10 pm

I posted my article "Closed cliquish cultures vs. Open social cultures" on YourTango, and got this insightful response. Check it out:

http://www.yourtango.com/201076802/clos ... l-cultures

As a former world traveler I have to agree 100% with this article. The US is way too conservative and we are easily one of the most socially regulated countries in the world; you need permission to do this, a license to do that, you have any number of social taboos that are openly accepted and even legal in most other countries, etc.

I also agree with the premise that we are all commidities of production. When was the last time you watched the news and heard the American people referred to as anything but worker, taxpayer, or some other commodity of production? I suppose it is why I have always admired indigenous cultures and societies, because they tend to have low productivity and place more emphasis on things such as family, community and personal relationships; values we have traded in exchange for seductive materialism that requires the intentured servitude mentioned in this article.

I'll never forget my first trip to Ecuador when I told my mother how much I admired the culture for their emphasis on traditional values such as family, community, etc......I was told that "Well, of course; those people have nothing else!"....I thought and still think it was an ignorant thing to say, but if it is true, then what does that say about people in general - that the more materialistic we become the less "human" we become, increasingy void of empathy, passion, solidarity, etc? I realize now of course that I was just an oblivious Gringo; their people are just as greedy and worldy as our own; perhaps even more so, but there is still a romanticism present that is void in American culture and society. We've sold our souls.
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Re: AGREE!

Postby jamesbond » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:40 pm

ladislav wrote:Your description of the US is definitely not how the world sees the US and not how the US sees itself. The world sees America and Americans as these free, loose people who are friendly and open. Women are sexy and will sleep with any guy they like. Freedom rules! The US sees itself as this very liberated and free society whereas Europe is this stuffy place filled with stuck up and stand offish people. Whereas America is this wide open space where you can roam free and be yourself.

It is funny how movies and tv shows make it look like it's so easy to make friends and get laid in America! :D

For example, I saw a movie last year (I can't remember the name of the movie) where this guy moves to New York city to start a new job. He doesn't know anyone and one of his neigbors (a hot blond) introduces herself to him. Then she asks him if he would like to go to dinner with her! WTF? This never happens in real life and we all know that!

On their first date, she invites him back to her place and then they have sex. Now ask any guy who lives in New York city if this has ever happened to them! Meeting women in New York city is like trying to climb Mt. Everest without any climbing gear! :lol:
"When I think about the idea of getting involved with an American woman, I don't know if I should laugh .............. or vomit!"

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Re: AGREE!

Postby keius » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:05 pm

jamesbond wrote:For example, I saw a movie last year (I can't remember the name of the movie) where this guy moves to New York city to start a new job. He doesn't know anyone and one of his neigbors (a hot blond) introduces herself to him. Then she asks him if he would like to go to dinner with her! WTF? This never happens in real life and we all know that!

On their first date, she invites him back to her place and then they have sex. Now ask any guy who lives in New York city if this has ever happened to them! Meeting women in New York city is like trying to climb Mt. Everest without any climbing gear! :lol:


This can and does happen. I know someone who had this happen to him. BUT, he's 6'1 and handsome with a relatively good job :roll:
These kind of guys tend to be immune to the problems the rest of us 'normal' folks have to deal with. He's always oblivious to the real issues.
His own experiences tend to skew his POV. Always pissed everyone off when he complained about the girls hitting on him.
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Re: Cultures: Closed cliquish vs. Open social

Postby Winston » Sat May 30, 2015 7:05 pm

Why you don't need to break into closed social cliques abroad

Why social life is more smooth and natural and flows more freely overseas!

In North America, Taiwan and Japan, you have to join a social clique to have a social life. Social life is all about cliques. Without a clique, you won't have a social life, since socializing is usually confined within them. Outside of cliques, there is a negative social vibe and paranoid attitude toward strangers. Women don't talk to strangers unless its business related, and especially do not like to socialize with guys who are alone. The problem is that a clique is a group of exclusive friends. They are closed by nature, and therefore difficult to break into since they don't accept new members easily. In addition, flirtation is considered creepy and taboo, and men are expected to mind their own business and not pursue women you like. And the US in particular is a very anti-male society.

However, the good news is that in most other countries abroad, you can have a social life without having to break into closed cliques that don't want to acknowledge your existence. Here are some major examples:

In China and Russia you don't have to break into a clique to have a social life. Communist countries are more socially inclusive and communal oriented. So people are more social and open to meeting new people, especially foreigners. There is also a pro-male attitude and curiosity toward foreigners too. Russian culture is flirtatious too, but Chinese culture not so much.

In Europe, people are more open minded, broad minded and curious, so they are more naturally sociable and outgoing with strangers. They have a positive attitude about meeting new people and there is a positive social vibe in general. So in Europe you don't need to break into a clique to meet people or make friends either.

In Latin America and Mexico, people are very uninhibited, fun loving and passionate, so they are easy to meet and have camaraderie with. So again, no need to break into exclusive cliques. Latinas also have a pro-male attitude too and flirtation is part of their culture.

In Philippines and Thailand, people are more simple, easygoing and cheerful. So they are easier to talk to and meet. Flirtation is fun and acceptable too. The females have a pro-male attitude and are fun loving and need romance and love.

So you see, the bottom line is that in Russia, China, Europe, Latin America, Mexico, and Southeast Asia, social life and dating flows a lot more smoothly and naturally than in North America, Taiwan and Japan. So if people tell me there is something wrong with me, I ask them why i don't have the same problem in other countries. They can't answer.

This fact and pattern is very apparent and easily demonstratable in real life and in photos and videos. However it's taboo to talk about because there is an unspoken rule that you MUST always say that people are good and friendly everywhere in every country. It's forbidden to say otherwise and politically incorrect. You are supposed to say that people are wonderful and the same everywhere. I hate such censorship that doesn't allow you to be truthful and honest. It's my pet peeve.

The unspoken rule says: You are only allowed to criticize government politics, economic problems and the weather, but you are not allowed to criticize social culture or people. Thus you are not allowed to say that the social life or dating scene sucks anywhere. It's an unspoken rule that almost everyone follows, including alternative counter culture movements.

So I'm unique in that I speak about all this very openly. But it makes a lot of people uncomfortable. Many people dislike me when I violate such unspoken rules. I don't know why. Why do people dislike the truth?

If you talk to other foreigners in Asia you will see that 99 percent of them follow the social rules of political correctness that I outlined above.

Examples:
1. They must always say that people are wonderful and friendly everywhere.
2. They can only criticize economic problems or politics or weather. But never social life or dating or people.
3. They must place political correctness and positivity above the truth, so that truth must always be politically correct. A positive lie is preferred over a negative truth.

Go talk to foreigners in China or Asia. Almost all of them follow these rules. I don't. So I'm unique and daring in that sense. Lol. Weird huh? Why is that?
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
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Re: Closed Cliquish Cultures vs. Open Social

Postby IraqVet2003 » Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:12 am

I agree with Winston 100% that the U.S. is a closed, cliquish, business-like culture!!!! And yes in order to have any kind of social/dating life in America you pretty much have to belong to a group. But I want to add to this that it may be necessary to belong to one in order to find a good paying job. Thus, the media's always stressing the importance of "networking" because it's not always what you know (skills, training, education, experience) but WHO you know!!! Not to mention most job positions or openings in America are NOT ADVERTISED. So unless you happen to have relatives or friends that work in a certain field or career you want or they know of someone who has connections, you'll have a harder time in the job market.
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Re:

Postby Jester » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:27 pm

Winston wrote:http://www.yourtango.com/201076802/closed-cliquish-cultures-vs-open-social-cultures

As a former world traveler I have to agree 100% with this article. The US is way too conservative and we are easily one of the most socially regulated countries in the world; you need permission to do this, a license to do that, you have any number of social taboos that are openly accepted and even legal in most other countries, etc.

I also agree with the premise that we are all commidities of production. When was the last time you watched the news and heard the American people referred to as anything but worker, taxpayer, or some other commodity of production? I suppose it is why I have always admired indigenous cultures and societies, because they tend to have low productivity and place more emphasis on things such as family, community and personal relationships; values we have traded in exchange for seductive materialism that requires the intentured servitude mentioned in this article.

I'll never forget my first trip to Ecuador when I told my mother how much I admired the culture for their emphasis on traditional values such as family, community, etc......I was told that "Well, of course; those people have nothing else!"....I thought and still think it was an ignorant thing to say, but if it is true, then what does that say about people in general - that the more materialistic we become the less "human" we become, increasingy void of empathy, passion, solidarity, etc? I realize now of course that I was just an oblivious Gringo; their people are just as greedy and worldy as our own; perhaps even more so, but there is still a romanticism present that is void in American culture and society. We've sold our souls.


+10 to the poster. Please invite him to HA.
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Re: Closed Cliquish Cultures vs. Open Social

Postby jamesbond » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:43 pm

Image
"When I think about the idea of getting involved with an American woman, I don't know if I should laugh .............. or vomit!"

"Trying to meet women in America is like trying to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphics."
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Re: Closed Cliquish Cultures vs. Open Social

Postby CB8 » Thu May 05, 2016 8:29 pm

Winston wrote:But passion is what opens people up truly to connecting with others, including strangers. Business does not, and instead treats communication as purely for business related purposes. American culture is the latter of course.


So true. Passion is the light of life, but Americans don't have any. Whenever someone has a passion for anything other than work, people view them in awe or disgust, like passion is such an alien concept.

On the subject of cliques, my experience has been that if you try to get in one then you get rejected, but if you don't care to be in one then everyone wants you in theirs'. The times when I felt the most desirable was when I gave up trying to be friendly (out of constantly being rejected or ridiculed) and just left people alone. That's when people want to be befriend me, but by then I already saw how shallow they were and didn't want to be friends anymore. All of it is so childish, yet full-grown adults are still trying to keep up this high-school nonsense. Winston, I'm glad to hear other places are different.
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Re: Closed Cliquish Cultures vs. Open Social

Postby jamesbond » Wed May 11, 2016 1:34 pm

CB8 wrote:
Winston wrote:On the subject of cliques, my experience has been that if you try to get in one then you get rejected, but if you don't care to be in one then everyone wants you in theirs'. The times when I felt the most desirable was when I gave up trying to be friendly (out of constantly being rejected or ridiculed) and just left people alone. That's when people want to be befriend me, but by then I already saw how shallow they were and didn't want to be friends anymore.

All of it is so childish, yet full-grown adults are still trying to keep up this high-school nonsense. Winston, I'm glad to hear other places are different.


America is basically an adult version of high school. You are either in a clique with cool people or you are not. Just look at Facebook (also known as "Fakebook") people will claim they have hundreds of friends on their Facebook page but how many of those so called "friends" does that person even know? :roll:
"When I think about the idea of getting involved with an American woman, I don't know if I should laugh .............. or vomit!"

"Trying to meet women in America is like trying to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphics."
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Re: Closed Cliquish Cultures vs. Open Social

Postby IraqVet2003 » Wed May 11, 2016 2:32 pm

Jamesbond, you have hit the nail on the head!!!! Indeed American society and culture is very much like the adult version of High School. I too believe that the majority of grown people in the U.S. are in some state of "arrested development" as compared to other advanced or developing nations. I think this is greatly reflected in the American mainstream media by which they always seem to focus on some of the most trival subjects or mindless "fluff" (such as sex scandals or the fashion of what celebraties are wearing) and sports (modern day version of "bread and circus") verses real issues or investigative journalism. Also this can be applied to the job market in which at times it's not "what you know" but "who you know" that gets you in the door. Thus making the American workplace into some "social club".
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Re: Closed Cliquish Cultures vs. Open Social

Postby CB8 » Wed May 11, 2016 7:39 pm

IraqVet2003 wrote:Also this can be applied to the job market in which at times it's not "what you know" but "who you know" that gets you in the door. Thus making the American workplace into some "social club".


Don't get me started on that. Most job interviews now are about assessing your personality instead of your skills. You better appear to be "normal" (read: fake happy, docile enough to put up with being mistreated by management, and want to talk about sports, weather, celebrities, or some other inane topic) or it will be a short interview. The American workplace makes it known that clicking with the workplace clique is much more important than performing the job well.

Free spirits are being forced into the self-employment route more and more these days. I know that's where I'm planning to go.
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Re: Closed Cliquish Cultures vs. Open Social

Postby Slick » Mon May 16, 2016 4:21 am

CB8 wrote: Most job interviews now are about assessing your personality instead of your skills.


I notice this alot when I interview for big box stores. They hammer me with 50 useless "Tell me the time you..." questions and maybe two of them relate to the job. I came to discuss how my skills would apply to the job and not tell my life story. If I wanted to tell my life story, I would have written a memoir or autobiography :wink:
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Re: Closed Cliquish Cultures vs. Open Social

Postby Slick » Mon May 16, 2016 4:36 am

I agree with everything on this thread. People in the U.S. don't like talking to people they don't know so it's hard in the U.S. to make friends. (Even in grade school, peers were too cliquish and dropped the "too busy" cliche too often). Many businesses tells people to smile and make eye contact. If I ever tried to make eye contact and smile at someone, they'll stab my face.

I frequently visit the San Francisco Bay Area (along with Sacramento and anywhere in Northern California) and I notice how most are sociable and willing to make friends. I bet I'd make a lot more friends there than my entire life where I live. If I'm stuck in the U.S. and I can't expat to another country, I'd rush over to the bay area. I don't really have much experience in So Cal so someone from there has to chime in.
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Re: Closed Cliquish Cultures vs. Open Social

Postby jamesbond » Mon May 16, 2016 1:21 pm

Slick wrote:I frequently visit the San Francisco Bay Area (along with Sacramento and anywhere in Northern California) and I notice how most are sociable and willing to make friends. I bet I'd make a lot more friends there than my entire life where I live. If I'm stuck in the U.S. and I can't expat to another country, I'd rush over to the bay area. I don't really have much experience in So Cal so someone from there has to chime in.


Winston grew up in a suburb of San Francisco and absolutely hated it. He had no friends and no social life. The people were very unfriendly and anti social. Are you saying the people in the bay area appear friendly to you? How are the women there, are they approachable?
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