Is Pat Flynn a Scam? A Critique of his Passive Income Claims

[xiongmao]

Actually not many of his things he's plugging are recurring. Bluehost pays $65 a customer which is a nice amount, but he'd have to sell 200 hosting plans a month to make the income he claims.

On the other hand, he claims 50,000+ twitter followers so I guess it's possible. At the end of the day this is just a numbers game.

That should keep him in old t shirts for a while!

[Winston]

While anyone will tell you that it is hard work to make money in your own business (even the deceptive Amway and its MLM copycats will tell you that), what they WON'T tell you is that the rate of growth is very slow, unless you are lucky enough to have outside forces helping you. Instead, these internet marketing gurus will paint a false picture - that when you start trying to earn money online, you work hard for one month and earn a few thousand dollars, and then it goes uphill from there. That's where they are deceiving you and painting a false picture of reality. But of course, they have a vested interest in retaining their followers and not letting them get discouraged; that's why they exaggerate the rate of growth of online income, rather than tell you the brutal truth about it. Therefore, where these gurus deceive you is in their false portrayal of the rate of growth in this type of venture, even if they admit that "you have to work hard to make money online".

In actuality though, the picture is not that rosy. When you start out, you will be earning virtually NOTHING the first few months, and when you do, it will start as a slow trickle. First you might earn 20 dollars a month, followed by 40, then 60, and so forth, more or less. That's the reality of how it usually works. It takes a lot of endurance to continue on at that point. Only those who really believe in what they are doing and persist will make something out of it.

I have a close friend who runs a highly successful medical diagnostic and information website. He is a genius computer programmer and expert online entrepreneur. He makes about $400 a day (but has made up to $800 a day during his best periods), or about $12,000 a month, from online medical diagnostic services and medical information pages that run Google Adsense. I've seen his earnings and extravagant spending habits. But he told me that when he first started, he was only making $40 a week! ($120 a month)

[cannonfodder]

Hi Winston,

I liked your link to your debunkingskeptics website and your use of the scientific method with concern to data collection.
I have been watching Pat's website for over a year. I have never given him money, but I do look to him for inspiration. In fact, I followed his niche site idea in my own field of interest. http://www.firefightertrainingblog.com

Anyway, I used the way back machine (http://wayback.archive.org/)to gather some more information (data) that can be used in this discussion.

http://www.smartpassiveincome.com First entry, Oct 23, 2008. The statement is made "Now you have an idea of what I keep track of and how I make a little bit of extra money on the side. Obviously, I don’t make millions. I do, however, earn an extra $4,000 - $5000 a month doing little or no work. It did take some hard work in the beginning, but it’s definitely worth the effort." on 27 Oct 2008. There should be some good data in his earlier posts and website content.

http://intheleed.com/ from first entry on February 7, 2008 until it went down sometime in 2009.

http://www.greenexamacademy.com from its first entry on September 18, 2009 to present.

So, I made a forum user account just to post this comment. I think I am going to spend some additional time researching Pat's earlier claims. I do think he is a nice guy and I do believe he gets the majority of his money from being a guru of marketing to his devote followers.

[Winston]

Hi Winston,

I liked your link to your debunkingskeptics website and your use of the scientific method with concern to data collection.
I have been watching Pat's website for over a year. I have never given him money, but I do look to him for inspiration. In fact, I followed his niche site idea in my own field of interest. http://www.firefightertrainingblog.com

Anyway, I used the way back machine (http://wayback.archive.org/)to gather some more information (data) that can be used in this discussion.

http://www.smartpassiveincome.com First entry, Oct 23, 208. The statement is made "Now you have an idea of what I keep track of and how I make a little bit of extra money on the side. Obviously, I don’t make millions. I do, however, earn an extra $4,000 - $5000 a month doing little or no work. It did take some hard work in the beginning, but it’s definitely worth the effort." on 27 Oct 2008. There should be some good data in his earlier posts and website content.

http://intheleed.com/ from first entry on February 7, 2008 until it went down sometime in 2009.

http://www.greenexamacademy.com from its first entry on September 18, 2009 to present.

So, I made a forum user account just to post this comment. I think I am going to spend some additional time researching Pat's earlier claims. I do think he is a nice guy and I do believe he gets the majority of his money from being a guru of marketing to his devote followers.

Hi cannonfodder,
Welcome. How did you find my site? From my debunkingskeptics site or another related to Pat Flynn?

I have just finished listening to Pat Flynn's audio podcasts about making passive income. They were really good. Have you listened to them? They are very practical and realistic, more than the claims he makes on his site. He does sound passionate and sincere in them, but of course that doesn't mean that he is 100 percent honest about everything. Who is?

Pat talks about $4,000 or $5,000 a month as though it were something "extra". Man. That kind of income is usually a GREAT primary salary for most people, especially since you don't pay any of it in taxes upfront. But he acts like it's some "icing on the cake" bonus by using the word "extra", which implies that his main salary must be far greater. It's subtle indirect connotations like that which make me skeptical about him, since smoother talking sales people and MLM promoters do similar things. When you talk about big money as though it were easy and something "a little extra on the side", it gives the impression that making money online is an easy thing, which it definitely is NOT. I mean he doesn't say it directly, but implies it by HOW he says things.

You see what I mean?

I'm also still skeptical about his claim that he sold an architect exam ebook and in the first month got $8,000 as though it were some small starting salary. lol Are you ever skeptical about his claims? I do suspect that he makes most of his money by teaching people how to make money too, which is a bit dodgy and similar to MLM. But he does sell IPhone apps too, it seems, which I'm sure has a big profit potential, but I don't know much about that. But stuff like that doesn't come easy either.

Btw, I just wrote up my own guide to making money online. You can find it on this forum in the Making A Living section, or see it in my blog here:

http://intellectualexpat.blogspot.com/2 ... th-vs.html

Feel free to post comments there.

[Andrew]

I have been following pat flynn and even bought the Market Samurai, but since, i use the keyword scout tool which i do not suggest anyone goes to buy, and you do not have to check my review site in the signature, (because i am here to make strong online relationships, not to sell my blog or anything)

but in all honesty, i was making the wrong things for over 3 years with 5 different websites, and since i started follow to the letter what Pat Flynn says, i have seen money. I dont feel comfortable as a human being, knowing how much you have in your pockets or in your bank. And i do understand why Pat would promote the Market Samurai vs Keyword Scout tool, it IS how he can make money. if you had 50 000 devoted subscribers ..

how much money you think YOU could make? I build niche sites, but unlike others, i research Needs, local business needs, and promot real products, and connect sellers with buyers in my area (montreal) and when i say niche market blogs or sites,

I mean stuff like, you have condos to sell in an area, i research what keywords your local people search for when trying to buy condos, i build you a website with real content, real ads of your condo, and google does the rest

SO what if i use dont use the same tools as pat anymore.. so what if i dont make 30 000$ a month, but im happy with my 20 000$ extra a year.

and Pat Flynn did help. and lol, im not pat flynn with a fake account here lol.

-Andrew.

[Andrew]

please dont shoot me for my opinion, jst saying it doesnt matter if he makes 30 000$ a month or a day.

[ph_visitor]

Wow. No way huh?

Winston, do you understand that OTHER PEOPLE LIE?

I don't think that you do.

[xiongmao]

My estimation of Pat went down since I emailed him about an important issue in our business, but he never emailed me back.

I guess he's too busy counting his affiliate income and isn't interested in changing the world for the better.

Apparently he cares if Winston hauls him up for wearing an old t shirt though!

[WorldTraveler]

Winston, I'm concerned with the security of any intellectual property on the internet age. I see copies of everything being sold for cheap elsewhere on the internet. I myself don't want to spend time writing books or producing videos, etc. if it is just going to end up on the internet for free download.

Can you give me a little infor about Kindle and Nook and the security on releasing content that way?

Thanks for the info!

[Winston]

I have been following pat flynn and even bought the Market Samurai, but since, i use the keyword scout tool which i do not suggest anyone goes to buy, and you do not have to check my review site in the signature, (because i am here to make strong online relationships, not to sell my blog or anything)

but in all honesty, i was making the wrong things for over 3 years with 5 different websites, and since i started follow to the letter what Pat Flynn says, i have seen money. I dont feel comfortable as a human being, knowing how much you have in your pockets or in your bank. And i do understand why Pat would promote the Market Samurai vs Keyword Scout tool, it IS how he can make money. if you had 50 000 devoted subscribers ..

how much money you think YOU could make? I build niche sites, but unlike others, i research Needs, local business needs, and promot real products, and connect sellers with buyers in my area (montreal) and when i say niche market blogs or sites,

I mean stuff like, you have condos to sell in an area, i research what keywords your local people search for when trying to buy condos, i build you a website with real content, real ads of your condo, and google does the rest

SO what if i use dont use the same tools as pat anymore.. so what if i dont make 30 000$ a month, but im happy with my 20 000$ extra a year.

and Pat Flynn did help. and lol, im not pat flynn with a fake account here lol.

-Andrew.

Hi Andrew,
Can I see the websites that you are making $20,000 a month from? What are the URL's to them? Can you summarize briefly where the income comes from?

Why do you need Market Samurai or Keyword Scout?

Google Adwords keyword search tool and RankPay.com tells me all I need about where I rank in hot search terms and how often keywords get searched in general. What more do you need than that?

Winston, do you understand that OTHER PEOPLE LIE?

I don't think that you do.

Of course I do. Why do you think I'm so skeptical in this thread? Duh!

Anyone can lie. But my objective here is to assign probability to the claims made, and how plausible they are.

My estimation of Pat went down since I emailed him about an important issue in our business, but he never emailed me back.

I guess he's too busy counting his affiliate income and isn't interested in changing the world for the better.

Apparently he cares if Winston hauls him up for wearing an old t shirt though!

I guess so. LOL. Maybe he is busy. But he was emailing me back within an hour before. Maybe he responded to me because he saw me as a threat after I posted a blog about him and in the comments section of the blogs of many of his partners.

Winston, I'm concerned with the security of any intellectual property on the internet age. I see copies of everything being sold for cheap elsewhere on the internet. I myself don't want to spend time writing books or producing videos, etc. if it is just going to end up on the internet for free download.

Can you give me a little infor about Kindle and Nook and the security on releasing content that way?

Thanks for the info!

Well anyone can share your ebook for free. But most don't. It's a calculated risk. If they put up your ebook for free on a website, you can report a copyright violation. But if they just email it to friends, you can't do anything about that.

Kindle does have some digital protection thing though, but I don't know what it's about. You can read their FAQ's and learn more about them on their website: http://kdp.amazon.com

[The_Adventurer]

I once saw an interview with a billionaire who said that if you want to be successful, find a mentor and someone who does real business, NOT someone who got rich teaching how to make money.

I do think what Pat Flynn claims is possible, though, whether it is true for him or not. There are some top adsense earners who make more than what he claims, and It seems to have already been established that he is making money from teaching how to make money. One online business coach I talked to always mentioned people he called "the next book brigade". These are the people who will buy any and every get rich quick item there is thinking that the next one they buy will be the one that works for them, though they never do anything. If he has followers like this, you can imagine what kind of income he can produce.

I think I made over $1000 in the first month with my ebook. Also, what is the price of his book? That makes a huge difference. Making money online is not hard if you find a niche and cater to it well. This is largely because you can charge more for your product than mainstream products. A mainstream book might be considered overpriced at $14.95, but if you have a niche ebook with valuable information that the people can't get anywhere else, you can charge $100 for it! Now you only need 80 people to buy it in order to make $8000. If you already had a site and huge audience for two years, and built trust, you could probably achieve 80 sales.

I'll give another example from the world of anime. Most anime is supported by a very small number of fanatic collectors, just a few thousand, making it a niche. Japanese DVDs cost $60 to $80 a pop and only put one or two 30 minute episodes on that expensive disc. Now imagine you see 8000 copies of that DVD, which would be peanuts compared to what Hollywood DVDs sell, but at their niche price that could be $640,000! With only 2 episodes per disc, you need 13 discs to complete your series. That's over $8 million for your show! Now imagine these 8000 loyal fanatics will buy every single product you put out. You never have go out and search for new customers, you never need to waste time and money of a lot of marketing, you just cater to your loyal niche.

Everyone knows the best business is repeat business. The whole idea of the long tail is that you could have 1000 loyal fans who basically support you and all that you do. If you come out with something of value every couple of months, you can see that it is even possible to get quite rich.

[Winston]

Check out this comment in my blog about Pat Flynn. It's so spot on and describes his scheme to a T!

http://intellectualexpat.blogspot.com/2 ... 7438575527

"jmiJuly 15, 2012 4:51 AM

This is not complicated.

Tim Ferris does the same thing. Sure, Tim had something called BrainQuicken that made money, but the REAL muse is to tell you how to do the same thing as him. The fact that you are reading the 4 hour workweek, means that you are creating his lifestyle for him. The ultimate niche is to make money off those who are making money.

The same goes for Pat. He has an authority site. He has made himself, in the eyes of many, the de facto expert on passive income. So people visit his site... and he makes money from them. What is even more ridiculous is that Pat actually tells you on his blog that his most profitable page is his RESOURCE page.

It's like this:

(1) Make claims about making money on the internet (show big dollars)
(2) Give tonnes of free advice on every subject related to niche marketing (95% re-hashed from other stuff, and warrior forum) so that people will think you are a stand-up gentleman... building a RELATIONSHIP with them.
(3) Create a brand around your personality so that you are likeable, get them to buy into your brand with your free advice.
(4) Share how you "did it", which incidentally is a list of links to other products that his affiliate for
(5) Offer "proof" of your success - Security Guard HQ. Which is only 5% of your revenue, but hey, it's proof - right?
(6) Now that you love him, like his free advice, seen his proof, you notice that he keeps going on about bluehost - you buy it because it is only $6 a month for unlimited sites. And he walks away with a cool $65 per referral. BANK.

It doesn't even matter whether or not his original claims are true, or whether his current claims are true. He is making coin. He has copied Tim Ferris... and I can't believe there is even a debate here.

He is a very smart guy. And what is even more laughable... is that he tells you EVERYTHING on his website... including how he is making money off his visitors. He even has an diagram right now, and delivers speeches on making relationships with people and indirect selling.

Anyone who buys into it.... #epicfail.

The only way to make money of Pat Flynn is to compete with him, and knock him off his perch. Good luck with that, he has too many fan boys. Unless you are a really attractive female, in which you may have a good chance because most of the bozos are probably male."

My response to him:

"Jmi,
Yes, you've described Pat's scheme to a T! You really understand how the game works. Congrats. You are a person of solid common sense who tells it like it is.

Yes that is how these schemes work. This is in a gray area though, because making money by teaching others how to make money is a bit shady. It's not profiting from a legitimate business, but more along the lines of an MLM.

But hey, he is good at what he does and has found his niche, so you can't blame him.

The flaw in this scheme is that:

1) Not everyone can be at the top in a niche. There isn't room.
2) You can't succeed by just following a formula. It doesn't work that way. Too many other factors come into play, such as talent, passion, drive, dedication, luck, timing, market demand and availability, charisma, karma, destiny, divine will, and other intangibles.

But hey, giving people hope is better than nothing, since working for someone else is a prison-like enslaving existence. At least Pat and I agree on that. As long as he doesn't give people false or unrealistic hope, which would lead to disappointment. People need to learn how to think critically though."

[djfourmoney]

And from your reply to my other post you seem think I am not a critical thinker....

Look I don't care I may end up homeless living in a box once my parents pass away, who knows. I have some ideas and I'm going to give it a shot, besides I am Black nothing is expected of me anyway (at least not in America). I love proving people wrong however, I get lots of mileage out that.

As I said in the other post on your blog, Pat engages his audience in a way you don't Winston. Its not about selling hope, he is building relationships. Much of your activity on here seems to be putting out flame wars, defending your views/opinions from others such as this thread here demonstrates and reaction from posting anti-establishment views on social life in general, including your own sometimes controversial personal life.

Having been kicked off of forums before for my sometimes abrasive post, I can't imagine running a forum myself, seems like I would get into endless flame wars and be called out on squashing free speech, which IMHO ranges too free at times given the low level and painfully obvious racist remarks made here lately.

If you're doing that and the normal admin duties that doesn't leave much time for other things. I am going to assume you're no longer with Diana or your child and last I heard you were in Singapore with your parents. I have no idea what you're doing with your personal time and frankly I'm not really that interested in it.

But like I said you don't engage the user base of this forum beyond doing what I just said. You don't constantly generate new Youtube content so you can't even enter into an agreement with Google to have ads shown before every video to generate some income.

Both Cliff and Pat have given me the confidence to start earning money online. I may not make a fortune but I don't care, its subjects I love talking about anyway.

[Winston]

Djfourmoney,
Of course I don't engage people the way Pat does. I don't have time for it either.

I have new content for YouTube but my videos there keep getting taken down remember? That was discussed a long time ago.

If Pat gives you hope, that's great. But he isn't doing anything unique. He's just good at teaching people how to make money online. Many others are doing the same. His market is already over saturated anyway. Ours isn't.

But his field is totally different. He has no solutions for loneliness, datelessness and sexlessness in America. He is already married and doesn't care about those kind of things. He isn't offering what we are offering. You can't compare the two. They are in totally different areas.

Plus, another big difference is that any decent average Western guy can go overseas and experience better women and relationships, but an average guy who tries to follow Pat Flynn will fail because there isn't room at the top of every niche for everyone. Plus making money online is difficult, only a small percentage will succeed. But any decent Western guy can go overseas and experience a better life. So in that sense, our success rate in helping others here is much higher than his, which has a very low probability of success, regardless of how "engaging" Pat Flynn is.

Thus, the average guy can't just follow a formula or how to guide, and succeed in making money online, but he can succeed in dating abroad if he goes to the right country. See the difference?

Anyhow, if you like Pat Flynn more, then go to him and keep up with his blog. If he has to constantly update his blog with fresh content, that's not exactly passive income anyway. But I'm not him and I'm not going to be something I'm not.

He is also not going to offer you what I offer. He may give great advice on making money online, but the majority of his fans aren't going to rise to the top of their niche because there simply isn't room for everyone at the top.

I may not be as engaging as Pat, but at least I tell it like it is, with no bull. Like it or not.

[xiongmao]

Pat's smart enough to know that his passive income won't be around forever. Witness him turning himself into a personality and expert - he'll be able to get lucrative consultancy gigs long after his blog dies off.