FSR Real Estate

Tsar · Post by **Tsar** » October 17th, 2012, 1:46 pm

Does anyone have experience with the price of real estate in Russia or Ukraine? The price of an average home? Then the price of a home similar to an upper middle class home (similar to that which is found in America)? I think one of the best ways a man can show a girl that he is ready for marriage and financially secure would be to own a home in her country. I read that in some cities like Moscow it can be as expensive as a good home in New York or more. What about smaller cities and suburban areas near cities?

Today, Moscow's housing market continues to be one of the most unbalanced in the world with the cost of housing sometimes reaching over $20 million for luxury apartments in the downtown. High prices now affect housing located on the outskirts of the city. Today, the minimal cost a new home in Moscow is estimated at $5,000 per sq.m. (with the average Russian salary $550 per month), which is too expensive even for foreigners.

Russian experts believe that rising prices mean that fewer and fewer Moscow residents will be able to afford new housing, particularly young families. The property boom has brought with it unrealistically high prices, which are well out of reach of citizens and families who cannot fall back on the luxury of a high income. Instead, the flats and apartments are being snapped up by wealthy Russians and some foreigners, predominantly as an investment opportunity.

http://www.worldpropertychannel.com/int ... s-2218.php

Andrewww · Post by **Andrewww** » October 17th, 2012, 2:26 pm

I imagine the farther you go the lower the prices but it's up to you if you want to live in a big city or a small town.

Personally I spent about 3 weeks in Moscow and the whole city is run by mafia, corrupt politicians and oil magnates. It's full of thugs and stray dogs, horrible bureaucracy and shitty weather, expecially in the winter (according to locals anyway).

Just google some of the most expensive apartments in London or New York, you'll find out that quite a few of them were purchased by Russian billionaires. That's why I'm not surprised that Moscow is so overpriced.

have2fly · Post by **have2fly** » October 17th, 2012, 10:21 pm

Unless you absolutely need Western high-class amenities and shopping malls, I would stay away from Moscow. It can be fun if you are rich, but people are very fake and becoming "American" in worst ways. Girls are mostly spoiled, especially if they grew up in Moscow. Girls that are "newcomers" to Moscow could be better. Again, it all depends what you want, what kind of money you have and how do you like to spend your time etc.

Research other Russian cities, like St. Petersburg, Yekaterinburg, Tyumen etc. Any large Russian city will give you decent shopping, healthcare and girl selection. Now if you want warmer weather, look for Sochi and cities around it. However, don't go too deep into Caucasus, like Chechnya or Dagestan - those republics are still considered Russia, but they are radical Muslim and feel more like Afghanistan. On the other hand, everything is very cheap there. Average people in Dagestan or Chechnya are actually very hospitable and friendly, especially to rare foreigners. Girls are GORGEOUS and raised very traditional, of course they have their share of sluts, but we are generalizing here anyway. Definitely DON'T be a player in Caucasus regions, you WILL GET KILLED for screwing some Muslim girl and dumping her. Locals can get away with it, you WILL NOT. But if you want to marry - GO FOR IT. City of Sochi is a host to 2014 Winter Olympic games, real estate prices went up a lot, but still are cheaper than Moscow and climate is like Northern California - mountains, sea side, beaches etc. There a few smaller cities near Sochi that are much cheaper for real estate, but still offer great views of the sea. Sochi and surrounding area is undergoing major development and construction for upcoming Olympics, the city should be almost world-class when completed. I would retire there if I would have enough passive income.

Yet another idea: you never know where you meet your perfect girl. It could in Moscow, it could on a dirt road somewhere in Siberia. It all depends, like I said - what you look for, who you are, what type of girls you like, what you expect and right place right time, of course.

As far as prices go. I don't know about Russia, but average decent apartment or flat in Ukraine will cost around $80,000 - 200,000 for a decent one in good condition with a few bedrooms (3-4) in decent location. Basically, multiply by 4 for price in Moscow and multiply by 2 for Kiev. Just to get an idea, here is one of the websites to browse, google chrome has a built-in webpage translator - you can use it to browse any foreign websites.
http://kvartira.miel.ru/object/28842/
$300,000 for 3 bedroom kind of outside of city center in Moscow

http://www.gdeetotdom.ru/buy/
On this website, 3 bedroom apartments cost around 300-600,000 in good locations for Moscow. Again, divide by 3-4 for other cities.

Yet yet yet another idea: Moscow is overcrowded with FILTHY rich people next to totally poor ones. It is shocking, but you will see Bentley's and homeless people next to each other every day. Girls in Moscow are sometimes used to extreme money, once they hear that you are American - they will imagine palm trees of Miami, Ferrari's and expect that you are living like that. NOT ALL GIRLS ARE LIKE THAT, but Americans are very exposed to attract these type of girls since you guys have no understanding of culture and no language skills. In fact, some girls in Moscow are sick and tired of constant money-money games and look for true love, when some village girls will actually want and will do ANYTHING to get money, since they come from very poor families. So again, it all depends on the person. Russians and East Europeans in general have a "soul", something Westerners seem to lack. But there is still greed, envy and anger, just like anywhere. Finding a Russian (or EE) girl that has a soul, trust, compassion and true feelings for you - now that's a dream one should wish for.

Google · Post by **Google** » October 20th, 2012, 2:09 pm

The average price ($) per square meter apartment in the 20 biggest cities of Ukraine
09.2012

Kyiv - 2130

Odessa - 1501

Lviv - 1443

Dnipropetrovsk - 1187

Donetsk - 1174

Kharkiv - 1091

Sevastopol - 1043

Makiivka - 1038

Simferopol - 953

Vinnytsia - 899

Kherson - 811

Zaporizhia - 804

Poltava - 800

Cherkasy - 795

Mykolaiv - 790

Luhansk - 762

Sumy - 709

Chernihiv - 694

Mariupol - 631

Kryvyi Rih - 480

http://www.zagorodna.com/en/cottage-tow ... n-ukraine/

Google · Post by **Google** » October 20th, 2012, 2:10 pm

Some residential in Kyiv city and suburban

^^ for example, price this home ~ 750 000 USD

http://green-hills.com.ua

Some residential in Odessa:

^^ $150 000 - $200 000 $ ( 120 - 150 sq.m)

^^ 2 000 000 - 4 000 000 USD ( ~ $4000 - $6000 per square meter)

Some residential in Lviv and suburbs

Tsar · Post by **Tsar** » October 20th, 2012, 4:15 pm

I know apartments in the US you never truly own it. It's just renting. Do you actually own the apartment and stop paying rent once you buy the space inside?

I didn't think real estate was that expensive abroad when their annual incomes are relatively lower than American incomes.

Wikipedia: Per capita income is often used as average income, a measure of the wealth of the population of a nation, particularly in comparison to other nations.

Taken from CIA Factbook
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$7,300 (2011 est.) - Ukraine
$15,200 (2011 est.)- Belarus
$12,600 (2011 est.) - Romania
$13,800 (2011 est.) - Bulgaria
$17,000 (2011 est.) - Russia

$49,000 (2011 est.) - Untied States
$41,100 (2011 est.) - Canada
$36,600 (2011 est.) - U.K.
$40,900 (2011 est.) - Sweden

*These values would be the mean incomes. The mean is not a statistically reliable measure because the incomes millionaires and billionaires skew the data. Therefore the median income would be lower than the mean.

Wouldn't real estate prices be lower rather than equal or greater than their American counterparts to reflect the disparity? Maybe not in cities were the majority of the well-paid and wealthy reside but in smaller cities and the suburbs? With real estate relatively expensive in the cities wouldn't it be similar to the American sub-prime mortgage crisis?

In a news article it read the price average home was historically 2 or 3 times a person's annual income. The current price for the average home is 4 to 6 times a person's annual income.

Using that formula I wouldn't assume it would be as expensive as you mentioned but I begun to price any.

Tsar · Post by **Tsar** » October 20th, 2012, 4:15 pm

I know apartments in the US you never truly own it. It's just renting. Do you actually own the apartment and stop paying rent once you buy the space inside?

I didn't think real estate was that expensive abroad when their annual incomes are relatively lower than American incomes.

Wikipedia: Per capita income is often used as average income, a measure of the wealth of the population of a nation, particularly in comparison to other nations.

Taken from CIA Factbook
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$7,300 (2011 est.) - Ukraine
$15,200 (2011 est.)- Belarus
$12,600 (2011 est.) - Romania
$13,800 (2011 est.) - Bulgaria
$17,000 (2011 est.) - Russia

$49,000 (2011 est.) - Untied States
$41,100 (2011 est.) - Canada
$36,600 (2011 est.) - U.K.
$40,900 (2011 est.) - Sweden

*These values would be the mean incomes. The mean is not a statistically reliable measure because the incomes millionaires and billionaires skew the data. Therefore the median income would be lower than the mean.

Wouldn't real estate prices be lower rather than equal or greater than their American counterparts to reflect the disparity? Maybe not in cities were the majority of the well-paid and wealthy reside but in smaller cities and the suburbs? With real estate relatively expensive in the cities wouldn't it be similar to the American sub-prime mortgage crisis?

In a news article it read the price average home was historically 2 or 3 times a person's annual income. The current price for the average home is 4 to 6 times a person's annual income.

Using that formula I wouldn't assume it would be as expensive as you mentioned but I begun to price any.

gsjackson · Post by **gsjackson** » October 20th, 2012, 4:46 pm

Tsar wrote:I know apartments in the US you never truly own it. It's just renting. Do you actually own the apartment and stop paying rent once you buy the space inside?

I didn't think real estate was that expensive abroad when their annual incomes are relatively lower than American incomes.

Wikipedia: Per capita income is often used as average income, a measure of the wealth of the population of a nation, particularly in comparison to other nations.
Taken from CIA Factbook
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$7,300 (2011 est.) - Ukraine
$15,200 (2011 est.)- Belarus
$12,600 (2011 est.) - Romania
$13,800 (2011 est.) - Bulgaria
$17,000 (2011 est.) - Russia

$49,000 (2011 est.) - Untied States
$41,100 (2011 est.) - Canada
$36,600 (2011 est.) - U.K.
$40,900 (2011 est.) - Sweden

*These values would be the mean incomes. The mean is not a statistically reliable measure because the incomes millionaires and billionaires skew the data. Therefore the median income would be lower than the mean.

Wouldn't real estate prices be lower rather than equal or greater than their American counterparts to reflect the disparity? Maybe not in cities were the majority of the well-paid and wealthy reside but in smaller cities and the suburbs? With real estate relatively expensive in the cities wouldn't it be similar to the American sub-prime mortgage crisis?

In a news article it read the price average home was historically 2 or 3 times a person's annual income. The current price for the average home is 4 to 6 times a person's annual income.

Using that formula I wouldn't assume it would be as expensive as you mentioned but I begun to price any.

What do you mean that apartments are never truly owned in the US? Are you talking about HOA fees? And these numbers you have presented are gross domestic product per capita, not income per capita. American income per capita would be significantly less.

Tsar · Post by **Tsar** » October 20th, 2012, 5:10 pm

gsjackson wrote:What do you mean that apartments are never truly owned in the US? Are you talking about HOA fees?

I'm taking about how a person is never done paying rent on an apartment. $500-$1,300 per month until the tenant moves out after the lease expires. Is it different abroad and the rent payments come to a stop similar to how a mortgage will eventually stop. Then there is only annual taxes and insurance.

gsjackson · Post by **gsjackson** » October 20th, 2012, 5:17 pm

You don't pay "rent" on an apartment if you own it. If you have a mortgage, you make mortgage payments until the note is paid off. You always have taxes, insurance (though not required if there's no mortgage), and, typically, HOA fees.

have2fly · Post by **have2fly** » October 20th, 2012, 6:00 pm

I'm taking about how a person is never done paying rent on an apartment. $500-$1,300 per month until the tenant moves out after the lease expires. Is it different abroad and the rent payments come to a stop similar to how a mortgage will eventually stop. Then there is only annual taxes and insurance.

Wow, you have no perception of ownership besides an actual house?

It sounds funny. Everyone used to own their own apartment back in the days of 1990's in Russia/Ukraine and FSU. Now there is a certain percentage of people that get a loan to buy an apartment. Almost no one is renting in Russia/FSU, now it is slowly getting more popular, but only about 5% of population is renting in FSU. So "paying rent" is not something they even used to hear over there.

It is truly amazing, but there are ALMOST NO FEES for an apartment in Russia/FSU! Yes, once you bought, it costs you pennies compared to U.S. prices. Such things like condo fees and association costs are VERY LOW in Russia/FSU, like $10-30 per month for an average apartment. In addition, there a land tax in most U.S. states, which is HUGE! Try to buy a house for cash in the U.S., but stop paying your land taxes, then you find out WHO REALLY OWNS that land! I mean, that shit isn't fare at all! In FSU there is barely any land tax and once you buy a piece of land - IT IS YOURS TO KEEP, so build a house or whatever you like. There are cases when your land is taken away from you by a corrupt politician who fakes some paperwork etc, but those cases are very rare. In general, there are VERY LOW taxes in Russia/FSU by U.S. standards. If you have like $150,000 cash that you can spend on buying an apartment, you are good to go. Making around $2,000 per month will get you a very decent standard of living.

So in Russia when you stop paying for utilities, they cut you off if they can. But they CAN'T take away your apartment. You bought it, it's paid off, it's YOURS. So there is always a safety net for you, even if you are totally broke.

gsjackson · Post by **gsjackson** » October 20th, 2012, 7:13 pm

How is it that most people own their residences in the FSU when average annual incomes are so low relative to the current cost of housing. Does title to the house usually date back to Soviet days? I assume very few people would be able to buy a house there now. So unless young people just stay with their parents, presumably most of them will have to rent in the future.

Google · Post by **Google** » December 5th, 2012, 11:49 am

gsjackson wrote:How is it that most people own their residences in the FSU when average annual incomes are so low relative to the current cost of housing.

You know, Ukraine has one of the lower GDP per capita in Europe, however in comparison with other developing countries, you will notice that the percentage of Ukrainians living below international poverty line is very low. It's because the salary stats (also Ukraine's GDP) are very misleading due to the huge informal economy. This means a lot of businesses or people don't pay taxes at all. Also in private sector so called salaries "in the envelope" are still very popular.

gsjackson wrote:I assume very few people would be able to buy a house there now.

yes, but the same even in London

but nevertheless, in the 'poor' Ukrainian city Lviv, only one year, built over 300 thousands sq.m of housing, but request for new apartments still exceeds supply and real estate prices there are rising....

Buildings and apartments are considered one of the better investments in Lviv
By the way, 'on paper' average montly salary in the city only $384 !!

momopi · Post by **momopi** » December 5th, 2012, 2:50 pm

Here in California, when you buy a condo, townhome (row-house), detached condo, or SFR (house) in a HOA, you do NOT necessarily own the exact piece of land that your house sits on. In many HOA's you own a fractional portion of the HOA land. That is, if there are 100 units in your HOA, you own 1% share of the land.

However, when you get your county property tax bill, you'd note that the assessed land value differs depending on the value of your home. So even if your fractional share is the same as your neighbor, the assessed land value will differ on the tax bill due to Prop 13 restrictions and other factors.

Tsar · Post by **Tsar** » December 7th, 2012, 8:33 pm

For comparison purposes

A $200,000 home in America would average $6,000 annual property taxes.

What would be the tax rate on a $200,000 property in the FSR?