Rock,
I am the owner of the business. you may direct your questions/concerns to me. i found a lot of very sweeping generalizations in your post. most of which, i can assure you, are incorrect. let me address them individually.
"this business model is well developed in Thailand which pretty much has the same issues as Phillies as far as bribing is concerned. Prices for such services are cheaper and you get a lot more."
what prices are in one country has very little to with another country. they are completely different. and, as you said, this industry is more well-developed in a place like Thailand, so of course it would be cheaper in some area. Call centers are very cheap in Philippines because its a well-developed business area. does that automatically mean that some other country, say Cambodia, should have the same cost structure? no.
"Whoever this guy is, we know nothing about him.....I would be a lot more comfortable with a FilAm or someone like Lad at least who speaks the languages and has been in country for like 2 decades"
As the owner, yes I am a foreigner, trying to provided a useful, reliable service to other foreigners. and you are incorrect that I am a newby and that i do not speak tagalog. I dont even know how you could jump to conclusions like that based on a website. I have been in Philippines over 15yrs, and I speak fluent Chinese and Tagalog. and, as for trusting, Filipinos or Phil-Am over a fellow foreigner, as somone who had experience in Phil, i'm sure you must know that it is very difficult to trust locals for services like this. as said in the website, most people will see u as a target, a walking ATM machine. so, if they see a weakness and go to someone for help, the very person you go to for help will likely try to exploit you.
let me give you an example. one American friend of mine had overstayed his visa in Phil and was worried what would happen to him if he were caught or what would happen if he tried to leave the country. so, he went to a local filipino lawyer to get help with fixing his visa problems. about a week later, that same lawyer called him and tried to extort him saying that he had to pay the lawyer 100,000 peso otherwise he would turn him in to immigration. so, the very lawyer he went to to help him, screwed him. because, to the local lawyer, he wasnt a client, he was a wallet waiting to be picked. so, any foreigner who has spent any time in Phil knows that you are better off working with other expats for sensitive things.
"Website has very little detail on the services provided and nothing about the backgrounds of the people doing the work."
The Philippines is a dangerous country especially if you plan to expose people who are scamming foreigners and potentially cause them to lose their meal ticket. Therefore, you cant go around telling everyone who it was that caused them to lose their meal ticket; otherwise many of them will seek retribution. you can ask Winson, people in the Phil can get violent and start trouble for very minor things, let alone if you are involved in disrupting their regular meal ticket.
" He's using a lot of fear mongering tactics too "
perhaps you are not aware, but Phil women scamming foreigners online for money happens ALL THE TIME. every day we get reports of a guy who has been sending a girl money in the Phil only to find out that she was also receiving money from 4 other guys, and had a local Phil boyfriend on the side. and adultery is a crime in Phil. it is very common for an ex-husband to see his wife (who he is technically still married to) dating a foreigner, and decide to screw with him, and get some money in the process. so, he files a case for adultery. and the POLICE do enforce it and people do end up in jail. you will then have to pay off the ex-husband, the police, and probably both. so, this is not fear mongering, its reality.
and, as for underage girls, it is VERY common for underage girls on dating sites or on Facebook to use a fake age when they register. sometimes because the sights require that u be 18. so, you could be chatting with a girl for months and develop a relationship without ever knowing her real age. if you actually meet in person and have sex and she is underage, that is very serious. we have seen many instances in which girls are actually working with the police to extory foreigners together. you bring a girl to your room, and 10min later the police knock on the door. it's all been set up in advance. or you have sex with an underage girl, and she may even be fine with it, but later her family finds out, they will come down hard on you, and the police and courts will side with them (because u are the foreigner, and also because they smell the chance to get money too).
all of these things are reality, not fear mongering. we see WAY too many foreigners getting scammed all the time, and we are simply leveling the playing field.
"can you share more on the background of this guy? So far, I've got a pretty bad feeling given what I've seen on his website"
Rock, you and i have actually known each other for some time. so, i'm not sure why u get a "weird feeling". i just try to keep business and personal separate, mainly for the reasons mentioned above.
thanks to everyone, and keep safe out there in the dating scene!
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Rock,
I am the owner of the business. you may direct your questions/concerns to me. i found a lot of very sweeping generalizations in your post. most of which, i can assure you, are incorrect. let me address them individually.
OK, I know who you are now and will address you directly air_king
"this business model is well developed in Thailand which pretty much has the same issues as Phillies as far as bribing is concerned. Prices for such services are cheaper and you get a lot more."
what prices are in one country has very little to with another country. they are completely different. and, as you said, this industry is more well-developed in a place like Thailand, so of course it would be cheaper in some area. Call centers are very cheap in Philippines because its a well-developed business area. does that automatically mean that some other country, say Cambodia, should have the same cost structure? no.
Different countries are different, fair enough. But Phils. should be cheaper, not more expensive for the key services you are offering.
- In Phils., records are in English and bureaucrats speak English for the most part whereas in Thailand, records are in Thai and most bureaucrats only speak Thai and/or it’s dialects.
- Human blue and white collar labor is much cheaper in Phils. than Thailand.
- Records checks are very cheap and straightforward in Phils. If I have the full name of a local person I wish to inquire about, I could send one of my local friends to the National Statistics Office in Metro Manila to find out the birthdate and other vitals for just a few hundred Pesos! I can even order up the information online if I have enough background info on my subject. If there are namesakes, I would get a multiple list with relevant details for each one.
Given the above, how do you justify charging a foreigner nearly 19,000 Philippine Pesos just to find out if someone is under a certain age or married? That’s quasi public info! Where’s the professional detective work?
"Whoever this guy is, we know nothing about him.....I would be a lot more comfortable with a FilAm or someone like Lad at least who speaks the languages and has been in country for like 2 decades"
As the owner, yes I am a foreigner, trying to provided a useful, reliable service to other foreigners. and you are incorrect that I am a newby and that i do not speak tagalog. I dont even know how you could jump to conclusions like that based on a website. I have been in Philippines over 15yrs, and I speak fluent Chinese and Tagalog. and, as for trusting, Filipinos or Phil-Am over a fellow foreigner, as somone who had experience in Phil, i'm sure you must know that it is very difficult to trust locals for services like this. as said in the website, most people will see u as a target, a walking ATM machine. so, if they see a weakness and go to someone for help, the very person you go to for help will likely try to exploit you.
Come-on! 15 years in Taiwan plus fluent Chinese – yes BUT 15 years in Phils. plus fluent Tagalog…I highly doubt that! If you wanna prove me wrong on the language part, I’m happy to have one of my local friends call you up and gab away for a few minutes. If your Tagalog is really fluent as you claim, I will apologize profusely in this very thread. But I’ve met you a few times both in Phils and Taiwan and while you like to speak Mandarin a lot when given the chance, I don’t think I’ve ever seen you utter even one word in any Filipino language. I also see on your website that you claim to have been operating since 2003, but Winston says you are new! Please don’t be another one of those white guys who blows his credentials and track record up way out of line with reality. Or at least please don’t try that here on this forum.
Sure if you hang mainly in Angeles City the way you and Winston may have done, you are going to meet some pretty low-end opportunistic Pinoys. A place like that acts as a magnet for those types. And I believe it’s true that many Filipinos throughout the country see whites and others foreigners that way. Same can be said of Thailand, Kenya, or many other countries with a low living standard and/or high concentration of wealth in few hands. That’s why it’s important for you to choose your local friends wisely. And rich people can be more dangerous than poor.
As for trusting locals or localized foreigners, remember, we have on this forum mguy, Ladislav, and Mr. S, all of whom I’ve met. They seem like guys who sincerely wanna help out and give to this community as evidenced in their post history on Phils! If you wanna help out too, please at least charge reasonable prices for the plain vanilla stuff.
let me give you an example. one American friend of mine had overstayed his visa in Phil and was worried what would happen to him if he were caught or what would happen if he tried to leave the country. so, he went to a local filipino lawyer to get help with fixing his visa problems. about a week later, that same lawyer called him and tried to extort him saying that he had to pay the lawyer 100,000 peso otherwise he would turn him in to immigration. so, the very lawyer he went to to help him, screwed him. because, to the local lawyer, he wasnt a client, he was a wallet waiting to be picked. so, any foreigner who has spent any time in Phil knows that you are better off working with other expats for sensitive things.
Please lighten up on the fear mongering. I would say your best bet on getting reliable and trustworthy legal service in Phils. or other questionable foreign country is to start with the list provided by the US embassy and also ask around on forums and trusted expats you may know. Shop with those filters and you should be fine. I’ve used this approach a few times and have always gotten good value for money. One of the purposes of this forum is to help each other out with this type of stuff. We have good country experts in several hotspots including Phils.
"Website has very little detail on the services provided and nothing about the backgrounds of the people doing the work."
The Philippines is a dangerous country especially if you plan to expose people who are scamming foreigners and potentially cause them to lose their meal ticket. Therefore, you cant go around telling everyone who it was that caused them to lose their meal ticket; otherwise many of them will seek retribution. you can ask Winson, people in the Phil can get violent and start trouble for very minor things, let alone if you are involved in disrupting their regular meal ticket.
I think you can do a lot better in spite of your fears. If I needed some real private eye work done, I might consider this company:
http://www.philippinepi.com/about-us/
They have a long track record, have a live phone number I can call to discuss a case, and have been reviewed positively on credible forums.
" He's using a lot of fear mongering tactics too "
perhaps you are not aware, but Phil women scamming foreigners online for money happens ALL THE TIME. every day we get reports of a guy who has been sending a girl money in the Phil only to find out that she was also receiving money from 4 other guys, and had a local Phil boyfriend on the side. and adultery is a crime in Phil. it is very common for an ex-husband to see his wife (who he is technically still married to) dating a foreigner, and decide to screw with him, and get some money in the process. so, he files a case for adultery. and the POLICE do enforce it and people do end up in jail. you will then have to pay off the ex-husband, the police, and probably both. so, this is not fear mongering, its reality.
and, as for underage girls, it is VERY common for underage girls on dating sites or on Facebook to use a fake age when they register. sometimes because the sights require that u be 18. so, you could be chatting with a girl for months and develop a relationship without ever knowing her real age. if you actually meet in person and have sex and she is underage, that is very serious. we have seen many instances in which girls are actually working with the police to extory foreigners together. you bring a girl to your room, and 10min later the police knock on the door. it's all been set up in advance. or you have sex with an underage girl, and she may even be fine with it, but later her family finds out, they will come down hard on you, and the police and courts will side with them (because u are the foreigner, and also because they smell the chance to get money too).
all of these things are reality, not fear mongering. we see WAY too many foreigners getting scammed all the time, and we are simply leveling the playing field.
That stuff is not only well known, it’s totally cliché, both here and in Thailand. Actually, it happens in about every lower cost P4P hotspot on the globe. If you think it's bad here, wait till you get to Kenya! The only way to effectively manage the risk is to either go for girls who are clearly of age (maybe 26+) or have her checked before you ever go into a private space with her. But having her checked doesn’t need to cost anything like 19,000 Pesos.
If you wanna be totally safe, don’t come to the third world. But of all the expats I know here, most have never been scammed or set-up. And some of them take pretty stupid risks and/or have been here for several years. Contrast that to Rio where about every expat I met who had been there for at least a few weeks had been mugged, robbed, or extorted by the police. So it’s not as dangerous as the hype would lead you to believe. And part of it has to do with where you stay, what you do, and the kind of company you keep. If you stayed in Angeles for an extended period, I wouldn't be surprised if you were a scam victim one or more times. Even Winston encountered some lightweight scammer girl wannbe there lol. But maybe if you stayed in Global City or Rockwell or even Davao and associated with regular professional types (epats, Filams, and locals but not politicians and rich fat cat offspring), things would have probably been lower risk.
In any event, part of it boils down to luck. If the SHTF, you’re screwed, no matter what precautions you take, no matter how much insurance you buy! But my point is, I think as a new firm with no track record, you are charging way too much for rather simple straightforward services.
"can you share more on the background of this guy? So far, I've got a pretty bad feeling given what I've seen on his website"
Rock, you and i have actually known each other for some time. so, i'm not sure why u get a "weird feeling". i just try to keep business and personal separate, mainly for the reasons mentioned above.
If you read my comments above, I think you will understand my reservations. Thanks.
thanks to everyone, and keep safe out there in the dating scene!
I am the owner of the business. you may direct your questions/concerns to me. i found a lot of very sweeping generalizations in your post. most of which, i can assure you, are incorrect. let me address them individually.
OK, I know who you are now and will address you directly air_king
"this business model is well developed in Thailand which pretty much has the same issues as Phillies as far as bribing is concerned. Prices for such services are cheaper and you get a lot more."
what prices are in one country has very little to with another country. they are completely different. and, as you said, this industry is more well-developed in a place like Thailand, so of course it would be cheaper in some area. Call centers are very cheap in Philippines because its a well-developed business area. does that automatically mean that some other country, say Cambodia, should have the same cost structure? no.
Different countries are different, fair enough. But Phils. should be cheaper, not more expensive for the key services you are offering.
- In Phils., records are in English and bureaucrats speak English for the most part whereas in Thailand, records are in Thai and most bureaucrats only speak Thai and/or it’s dialects.
- Human blue and white collar labor is much cheaper in Phils. than Thailand.
- Records checks are very cheap and straightforward in Phils. If I have the full name of a local person I wish to inquire about, I could send one of my local friends to the National Statistics Office in Metro Manila to find out the birthdate and other vitals for just a few hundred Pesos! I can even order up the information online if I have enough background info on my subject. If there are namesakes, I would get a multiple list with relevant details for each one.
Given the above, how do you justify charging a foreigner nearly 19,000 Philippine Pesos just to find out if someone is under a certain age or married? That’s quasi public info! Where’s the professional detective work?
"Whoever this guy is, we know nothing about him.....I would be a lot more comfortable with a FilAm or someone like Lad at least who speaks the languages and has been in country for like 2 decades"
As the owner, yes I am a foreigner, trying to provided a useful, reliable service to other foreigners. and you are incorrect that I am a newby and that i do not speak tagalog. I dont even know how you could jump to conclusions like that based on a website. I have been in Philippines over 15yrs, and I speak fluent Chinese and Tagalog. and, as for trusting, Filipinos or Phil-Am over a fellow foreigner, as somone who had experience in Phil, i'm sure you must know that it is very difficult to trust locals for services like this. as said in the website, most people will see u as a target, a walking ATM machine. so, if they see a weakness and go to someone for help, the very person you go to for help will likely try to exploit you.
Come-on! 15 years in Taiwan plus fluent Chinese – yes BUT 15 years in Phils. plus fluent Tagalog…I highly doubt that! If you wanna prove me wrong on the language part, I’m happy to have one of my local friends call you up and gab away for a few minutes. If your Tagalog is really fluent as you claim, I will apologize profusely in this very thread. But I’ve met you a few times both in Phils and Taiwan and while you like to speak Mandarin a lot when given the chance, I don’t think I’ve ever seen you utter even one word in any Filipino language. I also see on your website that you claim to have been operating since 2003, but Winston says you are new! Please don’t be another one of those white guys who blows his credentials and track record up way out of line with reality. Or at least please don’t try that here on this forum.
Sure if you hang mainly in Angeles City the way you and Winston may have done, you are going to meet some pretty low-end opportunistic Pinoys. A place like that acts as a magnet for those types. And I believe it’s true that many Filipinos throughout the country see whites and others foreigners that way. Same can be said of Thailand, Kenya, or many other countries with a low living standard and/or high concentration of wealth in few hands. That’s why it’s important for you to choose your local friends wisely. And rich people can be more dangerous than poor.
As for trusting locals or localized foreigners, remember, we have on this forum mguy, Ladislav, and Mr. S, all of whom I’ve met. They seem like guys who sincerely wanna help out and give to this community as evidenced in their post history on Phils! If you wanna help out too, please at least charge reasonable prices for the plain vanilla stuff.
let me give you an example. one American friend of mine had overstayed his visa in Phil and was worried what would happen to him if he were caught or what would happen if he tried to leave the country. so, he went to a local filipino lawyer to get help with fixing his visa problems. about a week later, that same lawyer called him and tried to extort him saying that he had to pay the lawyer 100,000 peso otherwise he would turn him in to immigration. so, the very lawyer he went to to help him, screwed him. because, to the local lawyer, he wasnt a client, he was a wallet waiting to be picked. so, any foreigner who has spent any time in Phil knows that you are better off working with other expats for sensitive things.
Please lighten up on the fear mongering. I would say your best bet on getting reliable and trustworthy legal service in Phils. or other questionable foreign country is to start with the list provided by the US embassy and also ask around on forums and trusted expats you may know. Shop with those filters and you should be fine. I’ve used this approach a few times and have always gotten good value for money. One of the purposes of this forum is to help each other out with this type of stuff. We have good country experts in several hotspots including Phils.
"Website has very little detail on the services provided and nothing about the backgrounds of the people doing the work."
The Philippines is a dangerous country especially if you plan to expose people who are scamming foreigners and potentially cause them to lose their meal ticket. Therefore, you cant go around telling everyone who it was that caused them to lose their meal ticket; otherwise many of them will seek retribution. you can ask Winson, people in the Phil can get violent and start trouble for very minor things, let alone if you are involved in disrupting their regular meal ticket.
I think you can do a lot better in spite of your fears. If I needed some real private eye work done, I might consider this company:
http://www.philippinepi.com/about-us/
They have a long track record, have a live phone number I can call to discuss a case, and have been reviewed positively on credible forums.
" He's using a lot of fear mongering tactics too "
perhaps you are not aware, but Phil women scamming foreigners online for money happens ALL THE TIME. every day we get reports of a guy who has been sending a girl money in the Phil only to find out that she was also receiving money from 4 other guys, and had a local Phil boyfriend on the side. and adultery is a crime in Phil. it is very common for an ex-husband to see his wife (who he is technically still married to) dating a foreigner, and decide to screw with him, and get some money in the process. so, he files a case for adultery. and the POLICE do enforce it and people do end up in jail. you will then have to pay off the ex-husband, the police, and probably both. so, this is not fear mongering, its reality.
and, as for underage girls, it is VERY common for underage girls on dating sites or on Facebook to use a fake age when they register. sometimes because the sights require that u be 18. so, you could be chatting with a girl for months and develop a relationship without ever knowing her real age. if you actually meet in person and have sex and she is underage, that is very serious. we have seen many instances in which girls are actually working with the police to extory foreigners together. you bring a girl to your room, and 10min later the police knock on the door. it's all been set up in advance. or you have sex with an underage girl, and she may even be fine with it, but later her family finds out, they will come down hard on you, and the police and courts will side with them (because u are the foreigner, and also because they smell the chance to get money too).
all of these things are reality, not fear mongering. we see WAY too many foreigners getting scammed all the time, and we are simply leveling the playing field.
That stuff is not only well known, it’s totally cliché, both here and in Thailand. Actually, it happens in about every lower cost P4P hotspot on the globe. If you think it's bad here, wait till you get to Kenya! The only way to effectively manage the risk is to either go for girls who are clearly of age (maybe 26+) or have her checked before you ever go into a private space with her. But having her checked doesn’t need to cost anything like 19,000 Pesos.
If you wanna be totally safe, don’t come to the third world. But of all the expats I know here, most have never been scammed or set-up. And some of them take pretty stupid risks and/or have been here for several years. Contrast that to Rio where about every expat I met who had been there for at least a few weeks had been mugged, robbed, or extorted by the police. So it’s not as dangerous as the hype would lead you to believe. And part of it has to do with where you stay, what you do, and the kind of company you keep. If you stayed in Angeles for an extended period, I wouldn't be surprised if you were a scam victim one or more times. Even Winston encountered some lightweight scammer girl wannbe there lol. But maybe if you stayed in Global City or Rockwell or even Davao and associated with regular professional types (epats, Filams, and locals but not politicians and rich fat cat offspring), things would have probably been lower risk.
In any event, part of it boils down to luck. If the SHTF, you’re screwed, no matter what precautions you take, no matter how much insurance you buy! But my point is, I think as a new firm with no track record, you are charging way too much for rather simple straightforward services.
"can you share more on the background of this guy? So far, I've got a pretty bad feeling given what I've seen on his website"
Rock, you and i have actually known each other for some time. so, i'm not sure why u get a "weird feeling". i just try to keep business and personal separate, mainly for the reasons mentioned above.
If you read my comments above, I think you will understand my reservations. Thanks.
thanks to everyone, and keep safe out there in the dating scene!
Rock,
Wow you have a lot of valid points and good questions. I didn't know you were such a great critical thinker. lol
Obviously the reason I didn't say who this friend is, is because he prefers his identity to be kept confidential.
But you know who he is now. So the fact that he is a friend of both me and you gives him some credibility here because both you and I are respected people here.
Air King,
You have some valid answers and points too.
However, I would suggest that you try to lower your prices, if you can, because:
1. If you charge too much, you might get little or no business. So charging half of what you want, and getting half the price you want, is better than receiving nothing at all. Right?
Therefore, can you talk to the officials you work with, and get them to understand that charging less and getting less, is better than not getting any business at all? Surely they would prefer getting half of what they expect, than getting nothing right?
2. You should also try to make them understand that although Westerners may be richer than Filipinos in general, that does not mean that they will be willing to pay anything for any service. That is a typical Filipino fallacy, that a foreigner will be anything for anything simply because he has more money.
3. Also explain that the US economy is in a depression right now, and that a lot of Westerners are suffering economically.
Maybe these three logical reasons above will get them to re-negotiate their contract/deal with you? Have you tried it? Can you try it? We both (Rock and I) want you to succeed, and I think doing this will help a lot.
Do you agree Rock?
Another suggestion:
Also, since this is a new business, why don't you offer a coupon or promo rate? Better to make people believe that you are giving them a discount. It's classic marketing and has always worked for a reason.
Free content for you:
Btw, I wrote a good anti-scam guide to Russia once that contains a lot of tips and tricks for avoiding scams in Russia.
http://www.happierabroad.com/Russian_Scams.htm
If you want, you can use some of it, as undoubtedly, some of it overlaps with the scams in the Philippines and might apply as well. You can put up a similar guide on your site, and paste the content from my guide that is relevant. That way, you will have some good free content for people that will help earn their appreciation. Plus, more content on your site means that people will cite it and link to it more which in turn gets you more traffic too.
Wow you have a lot of valid points and good questions. I didn't know you were such a great critical thinker. lol
Obviously the reason I didn't say who this friend is, is because he prefers his identity to be kept confidential.
But you know who he is now. So the fact that he is a friend of both me and you gives him some credibility here because both you and I are respected people here.
Air King,
You have some valid answers and points too.
However, I would suggest that you try to lower your prices, if you can, because:
1. If you charge too much, you might get little or no business. So charging half of what you want, and getting half the price you want, is better than receiving nothing at all. Right?
Therefore, can you talk to the officials you work with, and get them to understand that charging less and getting less, is better than not getting any business at all? Surely they would prefer getting half of what they expect, than getting nothing right?
2. You should also try to make them understand that although Westerners may be richer than Filipinos in general, that does not mean that they will be willing to pay anything for any service. That is a typical Filipino fallacy, that a foreigner will be anything for anything simply because he has more money.
3. Also explain that the US economy is in a depression right now, and that a lot of Westerners are suffering economically.
Maybe these three logical reasons above will get them to re-negotiate their contract/deal with you? Have you tried it? Can you try it? We both (Rock and I) want you to succeed, and I think doing this will help a lot.
Do you agree Rock?
Another suggestion:
Also, since this is a new business, why don't you offer a coupon or promo rate? Better to make people believe that you are giving them a discount. It's classic marketing and has always worked for a reason.
Free content for you:
Btw, I wrote a good anti-scam guide to Russia once that contains a lot of tips and tricks for avoiding scams in Russia.
http://www.happierabroad.com/Russian_Scams.htm
If you want, you can use some of it, as undoubtedly, some of it overlaps with the scams in the Philippines and might apply as well. You can put up a similar guide on your site, and paste the content from my guide that is relevant. That way, you will have some good free content for people that will help earn their appreciation. Plus, more content on your site means that people will cite it and link to it more which in turn gets you more traffic too.
Last edited by Winston on November 15th, 2013, 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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thanks
Thank you, Winston
I was actually just about to ask Rock that same question. You original post had stated that the owner of the site was a personal friend of yours. So i was puzzled why Rock had so many concerns and suspicions about someone you already said you knew personally.
having said that, Rock did make some more sweeping generalizations and straw man arguments that i feel need to be responded to.
Rock seems to think he knows all about my business, its track record, and its staff. Strangely, though, i dont remember seeing him sitting in on any staff meetings recently, nor do i remember sending him a copy of our financial statements. it doesnt seem to bother him that he is giving advice and dire warnings about my business based entirely on speculation.
he then goes on to make the opposite point that, since my website is apparently too opaque and no transparent enough for him, we obviously should not be trusted. it's strange how he can claim to have my business all figured out one minute, then find it to be perplexing and impenetrable the next. but, either way, he has decided that there must be something to be afraid of....
indeed, Rock then seems to believe that one shouldnt be quick to trust my business or my website. i'm really not sure why he has singled my business out on this, but that would just seem to be common sense and would apply to any website or business one deal's with, whether on the internet or on main street, and that would also apply to the website for the firm you posted. But, as you can see, our website clearly explains all of our services in detail and then CLEARLY STATES our rates so there are no hidden "gotcha" fees later, unlike some similar sights that will tell you their prices AFTER you contact them and after they have assessed you and know how deep your pockets are. In fact, the firm you posted doesnt tell you its rates either. again, you need to "contact them" and wait for their "assessment". To me, i always get worried when a company wont clearly state its rates. that is one of the biggest red flags for me. it usually means trouble later. it means you have no idea if you are getting charged double what the next guy is getting charged, or maybe triple. or maybe it just so happens the owner needs a bit of extra cash that month so he tacks it onto your "fee quote". how do you know? you just have no idea. We dont play that game. we clearly state our services, clearly state the fixed rates, no games! i think that alone counts for a lot with people. plus, throughout the site, we encourage people to ask any questions they may have before ordering.
also, i'm glad to hear that you have managed to steer clear of trouble during your time in Phil. but, just because you, or the group of friends you know have not been scammed, does not mean it does not happen to others. that is what we refer to as anecdotal evidence. but, the reality is that there are lots of scams out there. and not just in the "seedy" areas. anyone with an internet connection and a few fake pictures can set up a dating site profile and start fishing for money. in fact, there were posts on this site just a few days ago specifically talking about how to spot the many fake dating site profiles out there.
so, the fact is, trouble is out there. and, unfortunately, it usually happens to the good people who are often the ones least likely to see it coming because they are usually the more trusting people who, unfortunately for them, assume that the people they deal with operate under the same principles. i hear people telling me all the time that they never thought it would happen to them, until it happened to them! the key is just to be smart: "trust, but verify".
You are correct that place like Rio or Kenya may be much worse than Phil. but that doesnt mean Phil isnt dangerous too. just because a sword is worse than a knife, doesnt somehow make the knife not dangerous. That is essentially your argument: because somewhere like Kenya or Rio is quite bad, people shouldnt bother protecting themselves in Phil.
and your final point of advising people that, if they want to avoid all potential risks, then they should just stay away from less developed countries. Well, if that is really your suggestion, then that kind of goes against the entire premise behind the Happier Abroad website and Winston's fundamental theme of encouraging men to find love in many of those places!
I was actually just about to ask Rock that same question. You original post had stated that the owner of the site was a personal friend of yours. So i was puzzled why Rock had so many concerns and suspicions about someone you already said you knew personally.
having said that, Rock did make some more sweeping generalizations and straw man arguments that i feel need to be responded to.
Rock seems to think he knows all about my business, its track record, and its staff. Strangely, though, i dont remember seeing him sitting in on any staff meetings recently, nor do i remember sending him a copy of our financial statements. it doesnt seem to bother him that he is giving advice and dire warnings about my business based entirely on speculation.
he then goes on to make the opposite point that, since my website is apparently too opaque and no transparent enough for him, we obviously should not be trusted. it's strange how he can claim to have my business all figured out one minute, then find it to be perplexing and impenetrable the next. but, either way, he has decided that there must be something to be afraid of....
indeed, Rock then seems to believe that one shouldnt be quick to trust my business or my website. i'm really not sure why he has singled my business out on this, but that would just seem to be common sense and would apply to any website or business one deal's with, whether on the internet or on main street, and that would also apply to the website for the firm you posted. But, as you can see, our website clearly explains all of our services in detail and then CLEARLY STATES our rates so there are no hidden "gotcha" fees later, unlike some similar sights that will tell you their prices AFTER you contact them and after they have assessed you and know how deep your pockets are. In fact, the firm you posted doesnt tell you its rates either. again, you need to "contact them" and wait for their "assessment". To me, i always get worried when a company wont clearly state its rates. that is one of the biggest red flags for me. it usually means trouble later. it means you have no idea if you are getting charged double what the next guy is getting charged, or maybe triple. or maybe it just so happens the owner needs a bit of extra cash that month so he tacks it onto your "fee quote". how do you know? you just have no idea. We dont play that game. we clearly state our services, clearly state the fixed rates, no games! i think that alone counts for a lot with people. plus, throughout the site, we encourage people to ask any questions they may have before ordering.
also, i'm glad to hear that you have managed to steer clear of trouble during your time in Phil. but, just because you, or the group of friends you know have not been scammed, does not mean it does not happen to others. that is what we refer to as anecdotal evidence. but, the reality is that there are lots of scams out there. and not just in the "seedy" areas. anyone with an internet connection and a few fake pictures can set up a dating site profile and start fishing for money. in fact, there were posts on this site just a few days ago specifically talking about how to spot the many fake dating site profiles out there.
so, the fact is, trouble is out there. and, unfortunately, it usually happens to the good people who are often the ones least likely to see it coming because they are usually the more trusting people who, unfortunately for them, assume that the people they deal with operate under the same principles. i hear people telling me all the time that they never thought it would happen to them, until it happened to them! the key is just to be smart: "trust, but verify".
You are correct that place like Rio or Kenya may be much worse than Phil. but that doesnt mean Phil isnt dangerous too. just because a sword is worse than a knife, doesnt somehow make the knife not dangerous. That is essentially your argument: because somewhere like Kenya or Rio is quite bad, people shouldnt bother protecting themselves in Phil.
and your final point of advising people that, if they want to avoid all potential risks, then they should just stay away from less developed countries. Well, if that is really your suggestion, then that kind of goes against the entire premise behind the Happier Abroad website and Winston's fundamental theme of encouraging men to find love in many of those places!
there are many so called detective services in the philippines and all but one of them that i have heard of is a rip-off. i know stories of where services were contracted and fake results were provided with no actual work done... i even know of a case where a filipino detective stole the gf of a foreigner that he was supposed to be investigating.. i would be super concerned that a filipino detective blackmails a scamming gf so that he can get some extra money too in order to provide a good report.. sorry if i am so skeptical but i have seen a lot there... lol
how can we trust these detectives? Its easy for detective to make some sort of 'deal' with girl and provide 'good' report as greedy detective is naturally motivated by self interest, he may end up getting money and sex from girl and money from paying client
Charging $429 for marital status and age check is ridiculous especially if Rock is right that can be done for a few hundred pesos
the best way is to do investigation yourself(create fake dating profile, send your best friend to test her), there are many ways to do it
Charging $429 for marital status and age check is ridiculous especially if Rock is right that can be done for a few hundred pesos
the best way is to do investigation yourself(create fake dating profile, send your best friend to test her), there are many ways to do it
quito and banano
your concerns are correct. it's so easy for someone to just give u bullshit results. hat's why the idea that you can grab any local friend to just do surveillance on your gf just doesn't hold up. our surveillance is 72hr surveillance for a flat fee. a buddy might check in on your ggirl for a few hours. but a few hours isn't going to tell u much about a person's routine. you need a solid block of time. and i dont know too many many buddies who will do that long as a favor. plus, you need someone professional who will not get caught after 10minutes, and who has all of the equipment necessary to get physical evidence
i can assure you that , during the training process for our agents, we don't put them in the field until we know they are vetted. and, we even try to test them by having a fake subject try to offer them a bribe. and i can tell u honestly that MANY of then fail that and DO take the bribe. we even had one trainee who went directly to the subject (who was our test plant) and directly told her she had been put under surveillance and asked if she wanted to out bid the client. so, i share your concerns about scams. which is why we need to put in he time and money to make it safe. and those are costs we have to bear as part of providing a reputable business.
let's face it, if u are in a relationship and want to check on your girl, if she finds out u are checking, it could kill the relationship forever. so u can't just send any tom dick or harry who doesn't know what he is doing, or who will get caught after 5min, or will take a bribe, or who can't property record and document the evidence. if it turns out your girl was clean but the investigation was botched and ruined the relationship then it wasn't worth trying to save a few bucks
and, as far as using a fake profile to test your girl. i can assure u that any scamming girl worth her salt will see that one coming a mile away.
your concerns are correct. it's so easy for someone to just give u bullshit results. hat's why the idea that you can grab any local friend to just do surveillance on your gf just doesn't hold up. our surveillance is 72hr surveillance for a flat fee. a buddy might check in on your ggirl for a few hours. but a few hours isn't going to tell u much about a person's routine. you need a solid block of time. and i dont know too many many buddies who will do that long as a favor. plus, you need someone professional who will not get caught after 10minutes, and who has all of the equipment necessary to get physical evidence
i can assure you that , during the training process for our agents, we don't put them in the field until we know they are vetted. and, we even try to test them by having a fake subject try to offer them a bribe. and i can tell u honestly that MANY of then fail that and DO take the bribe. we even had one trainee who went directly to the subject (who was our test plant) and directly told her she had been put under surveillance and asked if she wanted to out bid the client. so, i share your concerns about scams. which is why we need to put in he time and money to make it safe. and those are costs we have to bear as part of providing a reputable business.
let's face it, if u are in a relationship and want to check on your girl, if she finds out u are checking, it could kill the relationship forever. so u can't just send any tom dick or harry who doesn't know what he is doing, or who will get caught after 5min, or will take a bribe, or who can't property record and document the evidence. if it turns out your girl was clean but the investigation was botched and ruined the relationship then it wasn't worth trying to save a few bucks
and, as far as using a fake profile to test your girl. i can assure u that any scamming girl worth her salt will see that one coming a mile away.
There's another issue that we haven't brought up yet.
What if your girl gave you a fake name? I mean, if I were trying to scam someone, I probably wouldn't use my real name so I can't be traced. So if the girl gives you a fake name, how can you investigate her background?
Is there a way she could be traced down from her IP or photo, via investigative bureaus?
Also, I don't think that a poor Filipina or even a middle class Filipina could outbribe a foreigner. If she was wealthy enough to pay a bigger bribe than her foreign guy, then she would not even be trying to scam him. She would just ignore him and act too good for him.
Btw, does this service apply to all the Philippines?
What if your girl gave you a fake name? I mean, if I were trying to scam someone, I probably wouldn't use my real name so I can't be traced. So if the girl gives you a fake name, how can you investigate her background?
Is there a way she could be traced down from her IP or photo, via investigative bureaus?
Also, I don't think that a poor Filipina or even a middle class Filipina could outbribe a foreigner. If she was wealthy enough to pay a bigger bribe than her foreign guy, then she would not even be trying to scam him. She would just ignore him and act too good for him.
Btw, does this service apply to all the Philippines?
Last edited by Winston on November 15th, 2013, 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Air king
it all sounds good in 'theory' but whenever there is p***y and money involved there will be issues, plus you add dodgy detectives into equation:)
I'm not surprised by high failure rate of your investigators but those who didn't fail the 'test' may be just playing smart, they are waiting for real deal? you cant rule that out. They don't need to be 100% corrupt, they could do things right 70% of time..its not black and white, most of them are in between.
So it is legal to check someones age/marriage status without their consent or is done by bribing officials?
it all sounds good in 'theory' but whenever there is p***y and money involved there will be issues, plus you add dodgy detectives into equation:)
I'm not surprised by high failure rate of your investigators but those who didn't fail the 'test' may be just playing smart, they are waiting for real deal? you cant rule that out. They don't need to be 100% corrupt, they could do things right 70% of time..its not black and white, most of them are in between.
So it is legal to check someones age/marriage status without their consent or is done by bribing officials?
air_king
Please read and think about the following quote from gsjackson
1. misrepresent your firm's experience (in biz since 2003 when you are actually just starting)
2. misrepresent your language ability (fluent Tagalog)
3. misrepresent your time on the ground in Phils (15 years)
4. charge 19,000 Pesos for something a novice like me could do effectively for a tiny fraction of that amount
These are not sweeping generalizations, they are very specific charges against you. If they are inaccurate, correct them directly and prove me wrong. Otherwise, how can you expect to have any credibility with a start like that?
We HAers are here to help, not take advantage of each other. If you fly-in with that innovatorsclub white guy bravado, expect to get called-out on it.
Please read and think about the following quote from gsjackson
Winston and I both know you personally but yr. pretty invisible on this forum. That's fine. But if u suddenly pop-up to promote a new business here, don't expect smooth sailing if you:gsjackson wrote:
Stay true to your brand, Winston, which is: a bit eccentric and megalomaniacal, but fundamentally honest and decent, and genuinely wanting to help. I think there's money to be made in that rep over the long haul. Keep your focus on social change and helping as many people as possible.
1. misrepresent your firm's experience (in biz since 2003 when you are actually just starting)
2. misrepresent your language ability (fluent Tagalog)
3. misrepresent your time on the ground in Phils (15 years)
4. charge 19,000 Pesos for something a novice like me could do effectively for a tiny fraction of that amount
These are not sweeping generalizations, they are very specific charges against you. If they are inaccurate, correct them directly and prove me wrong. Otherwise, how can you expect to have any credibility with a start like that?
We HAers are here to help, not take advantage of each other. If you fly-in with that innovatorsclub white guy bravado, expect to get called-out on it.
Those are great points Air King.
So when you test your agents by planting subjects that offer them a bribe, and they fail, do you fire them? Are all agents tested that way? How though? Aren't their surveillance activities done in secret without contact with the subject?
Maybe you can explain more in detail on your site, so people aren't left wondering or questioning. More info looks more serious and credible too.
Also put up more stories and examples.
I still recommend trying to lower the prices though, using the three reasons I gave above, which I think make a lot of sense.
Btw, you asked:
Besides, the word "friend" is broad, subjective, and used loosely. It could refer to a close friend, a best friend, a brother, or just a casual acquaintance or hang out buddy. So it wasn't specific enough.
So when you test your agents by planting subjects that offer them a bribe, and they fail, do you fire them? Are all agents tested that way? How though? Aren't their surveillance activities done in secret without contact with the subject?
Maybe you can explain more in detail on your site, so people aren't left wondering or questioning. More info looks more serious and credible too.
Also put up more stories and examples.
I still recommend trying to lower the prices though, using the three reasons I gave above, which I think make a lot of sense.
Btw, you asked:
Because Rock didn't know who you were and he does not know all of my friends. In his mind, a friend may make other friends who are not trustworthy. Not everyone has good judgment, so he may think that I sometimes make friends with the wrong people, or trust the wrong people. I've had friends that double crossed me in the past, and even led me into an ambush. So Rock doesn't always trust my judgment. lolI was actually just about to ask Rock that same question. You original post had stated that the owner of the site was a personal friend of yours. So i was puzzled why Rock had so many concerns and suspicions about someone you already said you knew personally.
Besides, the word "friend" is broad, subjective, and used loosely. It could refer to a close friend, a best friend, a brother, or just a casual acquaintance or hang out buddy. So it wasn't specific enough.
Last edited by Winston on November 15th, 2013, 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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There is no perfect solution. But there are ways to bring risk down. A few ideas:Winston wrote:There's another issue that we haven't brought up yet.
What if your girl gave you a fake name? I mean, if I were trying to scam someone, I probably wouldn't use my real name so I can't be traced. So if the girl gives you a fake name, how can you investigate her background?
Is there a way she could be traced down from her IP or photo, via investigative bureaus?
Also, I don't think that a poor Filipina or even a middle class Filipina could outbribe a foreigner. If she was wealthy enough to pay a bigger bribe than her foreign guy, then she would not even be trying to scam him. She would just ignore him and act too good for him.
Btw, does this service apply to all the Philippines?
Ask her to show you some IDs on the spot - work, school, etc. - and take IPhone snaps of them
Meet some of her classmates and/or workmates when they are in uniform and listen to their stories which they love to share
Go through her Facebook account, make friends with her friends online, etc. A lot of info. can come-out in gossip.
Visit her house, meet her family and friends in their setting, take note of the photos around the house (graduation photos with year, etc.)
If you wanna go lower, snoop through her purse when she is in shower and take photos of any IDs or other relevant docs and photos you come across.
Create some fake online profiles of attractive guys who outclass yourself to various degrees. Use these profiles to write her online and see what she tells you in the interactions. This is a way you can gauge her honesty and commitment to you.
If possible, have foreign and or local male friends try to meet her accidentally and cold approach her to see how she responds.
With the info gleaned from at least some of the activities above, it's not hard to have her checked out in records databases for a very modest amount of money.
As for bribing, it's not just about how much you pay, but how smart you are about it. If you show your kano or even Chinese looking face anywhere, it generally doesn't work. The right local can do this most effectively. But for basic records checks (age, civil status past and present), I believe it's quite simple and straightforward. No need to use big guns for something like that.
Nah, u give scamming Pinays way too much credit lol. They aren't Russians. Of course you've got to be smart in the way you do the profile(s) test.air_king wrote:
and, as far as using a fake profile to test your girl. i can assure u that any scamming girl worth her salt will see that one coming a mile away.
Have you ever gone fishing and thrown back a fish that was a bit too small only to have it keep biting your bait again and again? After a few rounds, the fish can get so bloodied up, it might bleed to death. Well, the way some people in this country roll reminds me a lot of those fish lol.
Good tips Rock. But what if you haven't met her yet? What if you only know her online? Then you could not check her identity. Unless you ask her to show you her ID's on webcam, or send you a scanned copy or photo of them.
Btw, you ought to give him some slack. Every guy exaggerates sometimes, including you and me. When he said 15 years in the Philippines, I think he meant that he's been going back and forth from Taiwan to the Philippines for 15 years, not that he's lived there for 15 years. I don't know about his Tagalog, but around you and me, he had no reason to speak Tagalog with us right?
Btw, you ought to give him some slack. Every guy exaggerates sometimes, including you and me. When he said 15 years in the Philippines, I think he meant that he's been going back and forth from Taiwan to the Philippines for 15 years, not that he's lived there for 15 years. I don't know about his Tagalog, but around you and me, he had no reason to speak Tagalog with us right?
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So why does he speak Chinese when Chinese people are around but never Tagalog when Pinoys are around lol?Winston wrote:Good tips Rock. But what if you haven't met her yet? What if you only know her online? Then you could not check her identity. Unless you ask her to show you her ID's on webcam, or send you a scanned copy or photo of them.
Btw, you ought to give him some slack. Every guy exaggerates sometimes, including you and me. When he said 15 years in the Philippines, I think he meant that he's been going back and forth from Taiwan to the Philippines for 15 years, not that he's lived there for 15 years. I don't know about his Tagalog, but around you and me, he had no reason to speak Tagalog with us right?
If u or other esteemed and solid contributing HAer here ever has a girl they need to check, let me know. If I am on the ground, just give me the full name (from some document she shows you online with her photo) and I will try to have it pulled-up in records databases for age(s), civil status, and other details. My charge - nothing but cost and perhaps a free meal or a couple of drinks if we ever meet. That's for anyone here who has made material contributions over time.
Last edited by Rock on November 15th, 2013, 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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