Women in Ontario, Canada (long post)

[Jakob]

Hi finalflash, I'm surprised you think Montreal may be worse than Toronto. From what I have heard and from my (somewhat brief) experiences it is quite a bit better than Toronto. But it's also best to go there when there aren't many out-of-towners in the city. If you go there on a national holiday you might run into many people who are from less friendly cities, creating the impression that the city itself isn't friendly. The same goes if you hang out with groups of people that are from other cities. The next time I go there I will make sure that I mingle mostly with the locales. I made the mistake of trying to socialize with out-of-towners while there in the past, and given that some of them were from Toronto and area, I ran into lots of resistance.

Toronto women just LOVE to show you how much they can resist your advances, and then brag about it to their girlfriends. Very sick mentality!

Like I mentioned in the post, PUA techniques don't help when women are programmed to resist, or sabotage men's efforts to get close to them. For the most part they only work on the most validation-seeking, immature women (but even then not consistently). But these women are not quality, for long term or even sex in my experience. PUA does not even get you good lays, since the premise of PUA is not to find women that want to have sex with you, but to bait women who want validation and who *might* give you sex in return. But that's only if you keep the validation/carrot-on-a-stick stimulus going long enough. The minute she senses that you like her she bails and moves on to the next stimulus, so you always have to keep her desirability questionable in your eyes and just within reach. It's a yes/no question in her mind (does he like me?), so it's like walking a tightrope. But if a girl genuinely likes you and wants to have sex with you, then it's not like walking a tightrope, since it does not come down to a yes/no question in her mind. So she can only be content when and if you get with her the way she wants. And you screen for this type of woman, not by using PUA techniques, but by focusing only on women who make things easy for you from the very beginning.

Unfortunately, the PUA mindset assumes that obstacles and difficulty must exist where women are concerned, otherwise you got lucky, or it doesn't count (since it took no skill). They totally dismiss the real lack of quality of those women that it takes so much work to get. Difficulty does not equate to quality where women are concerned.

Hi Jakob

I'm in the exact same boat as you. I'm azn Canadian, goodlooking, can sing, dance etc and I went to highschool in Toronto and basically did my university education in Ontario. I agree with you competely - after trying the PUA stuff for many years - you named the PUA, I have learned everything every major PUA has taught. It's very difficult to find quality women in Toronto. Gradually, I realized the PUA stuff could only help you marginally given you are already in a good social climate. So basically, it addresses the symptoms rather than the real causes. The PUAs techniques are mainly for getting laid, not for addressing a quality relationship problem we have. We want a quality women like these in Russian, Eastern Europe etc, not some snobby, impatient, man-hating $%^&.

I also lived in Montreal - the result is same as Toronto - probably even worse. Overall, I don't suggest Canada as a good place to find a quaity female partner - wife or girlfriend. Canada is good for getting a quality education, raising a family, asking directions but even for finding a good paying job might be big chanllenge since the taxes are so high.

So definteily foreign women are the answer. I usually find that even you learned all the PUA techniques, you won't be able to use them since it's hard to open. They simply don't like to talk!! what are you going to do? only old ladies 50s 60s like to talk.

Anyways, I would rule out all of Canada as good place to meet women - that includes Vancouver.


I

[Jakob]

MoscowSummerNights,

From what I can tell the problem with Toronto is that it is too socialist. It caters to "the minority" and the "unions". This explains why feminism thrives so much in the city, and why it can push its agenda even further than in other cities. It also explains why there's so much of a sense of entitlement in TTC employees (public sector workers), who always want higher pay, more benefits, while providing less quality service.

"You owe me" is the socialist mantra of Toronto.

And then there's the Toronto Maple Leafs who are likely the worst team in the NHL, while being one of the richest. You can sense that many of the players and the execs have this attitude that since they fill the seats and make the franchise lots of money, that they shouldn't be pushed too hard to perform (ie. play well).

Political correctness is at insane levels in the city, from the Gay Pride parade, to the Toronto Women's bookstore, to the pro-female (anti-male) agendas at the universities. The city is a slow death for any rational thinking person.

I have lived all over the world and I have lived in Toronto 1.5 years and it is the only city I ever gave the finger to from an airplane as I left.

It is most definitely the most anti-male city in the entire world.

Why? They are major left wingers for starters and they emulate Americans in a magnified way. For those who do not know by now, a major thing about leftism is hating older white males (the patriarchy). They never had a Reagan defeat communism for once and for all and actually felt at the time and still think Reagan was a major disaster. In other words, reality never got to knock on their door.

So where New York and Boston feminists will make major headway but face air resistance from enough males with common sense (Soctt Brown beat Martha Coakley because she was far too feminist), Torontonians will just get the drift that feminism is, indeed, winning in the USA so they will copy it while the Canadian men will do NOTHING to offer resistance.

Outside Toronto, there are more conservatives in the small towns. Their daughters don't hate men so much.

I had the most miserable time of my life in Toronto when I was doing extremely well in NYC. My game was in top form in New York. But that did not matter in Toronto. The Toronto feminists assumed they were emulating New York women but they were NOT. They were far, far, far worse.



Copy cat cultures are dangerous.

[MoscowSummerNights]

Like I wrote, Toronto is the only city in the world that I gave the finger to as I finally flew away from it, hoping to never return.

[SNS]

It's worth mentioning that the best women I met were the ones that didn't require game. Everything was normal, and went seamlessly. So it's completely untrue that good game gets good women. Overcoming obstacles is not the path to getting good women. That's why I now only screen for women who make it easy for me. The law of returns works in my favor. The same goes if you only want sex. The best lays are "foolsmate" lays, contrary to what Mystery et al believe.

But in the final analysis good quality women simply no longer exist in the anglosphere anymore, and certainly not in any native english speaking country. If by chance you do think you found a 'quality' woman most likely it will be just an act, nothing more.

And you are correct the true enemy is not women, it is the men that are enabling dysfunctional female behavior and attitudes. This includes all the lawmakers as well as the men involved in man hating media.

You are definitely smart to go overseas. But a word of warning: DO NOT bring back a fw to america and expect a good life. FW will change into the feminist swine over time in the States. There are many field reports out there that can attest just that.

The best thing to do if you want a sane life is to pack your bags, get yourself to another country that is not a feminazi wasteland, a country that too you can fit it, and stay there.

America is simply an empty shell of what was once a great nation. A great nation that once had people who had common sense, public schools that were not hijacked and infested with Marxist assholes promoting the gay agenda and feminism. A nation where there was pride. Its all gone, inhabitated instead by the Great Unwashed that resembles the same kind of 'people' one would see from the Mad Max movies. The women in America (both USA and Canada) hate men, the men hate men, and the men hate themselves. This is the sick world of feminism.

Scrape the anglsosphere off your shoe and blaze your own trail elsewhere.

[momopi]

I have never visited or dated women from Toronto. This commentary is based on personal experience with women from British Columbia.

I have visited BC and dated women from Vancouver. I also have friends from Powell River. Most of you probably have never heard of the place, so here's a photo:



I have very positive opinions of Vancouver and the Canadian girls that I dated. Of all the "friends" who borrowed money from me in the past, the Canadian girl is one of very few who actually paid me back, plus a small interest and couple of gifts.

Perhaps girls from small towns have better ethics, I'll leave the speculation to you guys.

Last year, when I was laid off from my job of 12+ years, my ex-employer paid for job retraining. When I went to the orientation, the room was filled with angry ex-coworkers who actually cheered when they heard someone else got laid off. I looked around at all the people shooting daggers and just turned around and walked out. After blowing my severance on several vacations abroad, I enrolled in culinary school and was well fed every day. When I e-mailed one of my ex-coworkers, he replied with a 2 page angry rant about how hard it was to find a job and compete against hundreds of other people applying for the same job on-line.

I told him to look at the job ad for the company name, then look up the company's web site, look for job postings and HR department info. See if there's a fax number for resume submission, if not call the company and ask for their fax number. Fax over a copy of the job ad, a customized cover letter, and the resume.

When hundreds of people are banging their heads on monster.com and spamming their resume's everywhere, the HR guy gets 300-400 resume's in his in-box and he just does a key word search on it. What, you think he's actually going to print them out and read them one by one? LoL. When you fax your resume in, it goes on the guy's desk in a hard copy. Viola. Rest is up to you.

Networking in a room full of angry people isn't very productive.


Just because you had a shitty experience about something, it doesn't mean that everyone else will share the same shitty experience. If you think that because you had a shitty experience, everyone else "should" also have a shitty experience, then you're just a bitter person. It's not healthy to wish everyone else to have a failed relationship or marriage just because you couldn't do it. If you're angry and upset all the time, you'll miss out on a lot of good things in life. Hey, if things don't work out for you here, you can always go abroad. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. Try to wish everyone else success and stop being bitter about it. Life is a one way street to 6 foot under. At age 19 you could pork girls 3-6 times/day without viagra. At 39 you probably can't do that anymore. If you missed the opportunity at 19, your youth and vitality is never coming back. So take heed and take whatever you have left and live well.


p.s. if anyone is in the job search market, visit http://www.servicelocator.org/
Your tax dollars paid for it (US Department of Labor), so use it.

[Shokkers]

AFC stands for Average Frustrated Chump. (A guy who cannot get dates or sex.) They are what most Pick-Up Artists start out as.

[ExpeditionSailor]

I lived in Toronto twenty years ago and found it to be very socially cold. The women there were just as stuck-up, unfriendly, and unapproachable as they are today.

[momopi]

I'm in Toronto right now!

Any restaurant recommendations?

I'll be here for a week or so, will try to visit the Royal Museum before I leave. Was hoping to drive to Waterloo to meet up with some friends, but road conditions are bad with snow right now.

[have2fly]

AFC = Average Frustrated Chump

I used to read Mystery books and "The Game" book too. I even downloaded seminars etc. After watching all that stuff I lost ALL interest in US females because I understood that they want a "fake" me. I just can't fake myself, NO WAY. I am a nice, good looking, educated, well traveled guy. Why do I need to act like some asshole? I don't want to. It is not who I am. But no one wants an intelligent guy, he is seeing as boring and loser (WTF? When did smart become a sign of losers?)

Also it made me think that women who want assholes are assholes themselves. It makes perfect sense.

Something else I was telling my friend about recently - American girls are NOT ladies. They are sluts, whores, hating feminists or crazy workaholics that don't even think about men - only money. Do you guys know what is being a "lady"? It is a posture, amazing manners, soft speech, decent clothes, fly-like vibing walking style (you know when girls walk so soft like waves on water) etc etc etc. Many girls in Eastern Europe are in fact "ladies" - they are taught how to be good females. American girls are usually just trash - smoke, drink, exercise and get laid, loud horse-like laugh etc. Meh, garbage.

[S_Parc]

So where New York and Boston feminists will make major headway but face air resistance from enough males with common sense (Soctt Brown beat Martha Coakley because she was far too feminist), Torontonians will just get the drift that feminism is, indeed, winning in the USA so they will copy it while the Canadian men will do NOTHING to offer resistance.

Outside Toronto, there are more conservatives in the small towns. Their daughters don't hate men so much.

I had the most miserable time of my life in Toronto when I was doing extremely well in NYC. My game was in top form in New York. But that did not matter in Toronto. The Toronto feminists assumed they were emulating New York women but they were NOT. They were far, far, far worse.

Being from Boston, I'd say our politics is little more than a Kabuki show, not a whole lot different than Toronto. Thus, Brown's appointment wasn't an evolution but a type of pseudo-liberal republicanism, since people wanted to state that they weren't simply replacing Ted Kennedy's former slot. But yeah, I'd heard that the politics of Canada were terrible.

On the other hand, when I was in Toronto, I'd met women from Nova Scotia, Quebec, Manitoba, & other countries and I didn't see the same psychosis as the ones in Boston. Thus, my short dating stint there still trumped my experiences at home and NYC. I guess I notice the resistance factor immediately and quickly move on, thus, I tended to do all right, since I pre-screen the crud from my radar. Yet, the women who did like me, did express themselves. This is in sharp contrast with Boston/NYC, where you need to be near psychic to figure it out, since women are rather tight-lipped around men.

Remember, escorting & lap dances are permitted in Canada but it's completely barred in Boston and NYC, thus, I don't think that Americans have a outlet to release intermittent build ups of pressure.

[DaRick]

I've met women from Toronto before (was forced into a group with one this semester).

They seem about as selfish, inconsiderate and defensive of their own stupidity (this one admitted to dating players - at least she's honest, I guess) as any other Anglo women I've come across. More so? I cannot say.

I was miffed with this girl's behaviour one night (leaving me to sit at a table by myself one night when the other group members were absent and making a big noise about me not talking to her when in fact I was speaking to the tutor), so I avoided her quite pointedly. I can't say I regret doing so.

She did get on famously with the other Anglo guys in my group, but that didn't surprise me. One was an American who tried to get away from California...by coming to Australia. Brilliant.

[DaRick]

Why? They are major left wingers for starters and they emulate Americans in a magnified way. For those who do not know by now, a major thing about leftism is hating older white males (the patriarchy). They never had a Reagan defeat communism for once and for all and actually felt at the time and still think Reagan was a major disaster. In other words, reality never got to knock on their door.

Ha, this girl was a leftist also, so I even had political disagreements with her (she thinks Gillard's Labor is good!).

[S_Parc]

I also lived in Montreal - the result is same as Toronto - probably even worse. Overall, I don't suggest Canada as a good place to find a quaity female partner - wife or girlfriend.

I believe Montreal is better than Boston, in terms of women. The average lady in Montreal seems to be a 7 or 8, by Boston standards, & is considerably friendlier, albeit not off the scale or anything. I've done all right for myself in Quebec.

I think the avg Boston lady (outside of some key diasporas like the Brazilian or Cambodian ones) is arrogant & unattractive, both physically and emotionally.

And for Toronto, I think the east Asian & middle eastern diasporas there have much better women than in Boston. I'd only date an Asian-American woman, at this pt in time, if she were fresh from Hawaii on internship or something.

[pilotface]

Dear Jakob:

That was the most professionally written and insightful article I had the pleasure of reading in a long time. Your comments were literally speaking my mind, they were right on. I'm a German immigrant that became an American citizen in late 1984. I too have been disillusioned and wrought out by this so called American dream. Don't get me wrong I love this country, or at least what it used to stand for. I served proudly in the USAF while a German no less. But when I read the America vs. Europe comparison, I had an emotional epiphany. Thank you guys for offering me kinship in this desolate lonely landscape of American women gone bonkers. Well done!

Most of the discussion here focuses on women in the US, but I can tell you that Canadian women are not better. And in some places, such as Toronto and area, they are probably even worse. It's something that has become more and more evident as time went on. And the thing is that the coldness and aloofness of women here is so COMMON that it becomes accepted. Women go out of their way to avoid contact with others while out in public. They might appear passive on the surface, but believe me they are VERY active in the art of avoidance and subterfuge. It's gotten to the point where I'll size up a situation quickly and not bother to "tough it out" and see if something good happens. I'll just leave and go elsewhere.

About 8 years ago I was what many in the seduction community would call an "AFC". It's not a term I like, but it gets the point across. I was at that point where PUA and related concepts became very important to me to get out of this dating rut I was in. Back then "game" seemed like the ultimate answer to a poor social life and lack of women in my life, but after years of experience and trial and error I have come to realize that "game" is only a life raft. If you are sinking and don't know how to swim it can help you overcome some of your biggest mistakes. But it's all relative. If you're starving even a sh*t sandwich can seem appetizing. But admittedly I did have a fair degree of success with PUA material. The only problem was the level of success was in many ways abnormal; the women were shallow, manipulative, stimulation seeking, emotionally unregulated drama queens. PUA material was merely a way to navigate a broken system, a way to get results, no matter how lacklustre those results are, and then call it success.

It's worth mentioning that the best women I met were the ones that didn't require game. Everything was normal, and went seamlessly. So it's completely untrue that good game gets good women. Overcoming obstacles is not the path to getting good women. That's why I now only screen for women who make it easy for me. The law of returns works in my favor. The same goes if you only want sex. The best lays are "foolsmate" lays, contrary to what Mystery et al believe.

Over time I began to see that the seduction community has two major flaws: The first flaw is that it teaches you the very contradictory message that you have to learn to be masculine and be your own man while catering to women and their actions. So no matter what she does, it's up to you to calibrate it for best effect. If she wants cocky and funny you better be cocky and funny. If she wants an as*hole you better be that too. If she wants entertainment and you aren't entertaining then she will move on to the next guy who is.

The second flaw is that the seduction community never or rarely addresses those things that women are doing wrong. It's like a child who throws a tantrum and instead of disciplining him or her you take the position that you have to find out what it is they want and give it to them. There's this intense fear that if you call out women on their misbehaviour you are a chump or weak or unable to take it like a man. So rather than do that, many guys prefer to just take the "spoil the child" approach to getting laid. Game is basically a coping strategy for women's rotten behaviour. If a woman has attitude and is unresponsive god forbid you tell her to open up. It's your job to figure out what buttons to push.

It's not hard to see that game and PUA material is a downward spiral. I digress...

I signed up for this forum because I can relate to its premise. Although I have not traveled much I know for sure that women abroad are better. In fact some of the friendliest most open women I have met came here from overseas. And I've known guys who moved here and have taken a serious hit in their social life. So some might say that the traveler status helps, and when guys say they do better abroad it's because of that. Now, there is likely some truth to that, but like I said, I've known guys who have moved here from overseas who suddenly found themselves dateless and having a hard time making connections.

In my neck of the woods, women follow this rigid structure on where and how to meet men. As a result I've only ever met women at clubs and through the internet. Despite many, many attempts I have almost never met anyone through daytime pickup; either at the mall, bookstore, bus stop etc. You would think it was easy. Well you would be wrong.

Some might say that I wasn't gaming right or I was doing something wrong. That may have been more true in the beginning. But now I know it's the women that are closed off. It becomes most obvious when I get much better reactions from women when I meet them through friends or acquaintances (the accepted channels), but when I meet them out in public there's this wall that comes up. Hard to explain, but it's like this polite on the surface, but wanting to get the hell out of there vibe. And yet I am the same person everywhere, but the location makes all the difference. The PUA stuff is not a solution to this. It can help a bit but like this site owner said, they already have to be into you. I resisted this notion for the longest time but eventually I concluded that if you have overcome your shyness and are comfortable talking with strangers then PUA won't help. PUA only helps if you are very introverted; in which case PUA gives you material to work with, kind of like training wheels. There's also probably a placebo effect where you feel good about it and that shows in your overall vibe, making you more attractive.

So the only real benefit of PUA is that it's a template to get you talking, but it's no more useful than religion is to make you a better or more attractive person. Guys who cling to this are simply in life-raft mode, scared to move on to solid land or to greener pastures; which is what this site talks about.

It's a shame that these so-called PUA gurus are getting so much attention, with guys spending tons of money on their products. But none of these gurus talk about the dysfunctional dating culture in North America. To do that would admit a weakness that can't be marketed, and these guys have money to make. Take David DeAngelo for instance, who does provide some good information, but also some very bad. He seems to underscore all his good advice with this one sentence: "Do this to get women". Learn hobbies, be funny and interesting dot-dot-dot because it helps you get women. You have to wonder how far along he really is in his personal development.

Then there's Mystery, always teaching coping techniques on how to deal with any and all adverse dating situations. His classic line: "Men must learn to attract beautiful women or their genes will be mercilessly weeded out of existence". Great line BTW, plays on fear. And once the fear is primed a solution is offered. Very cult like. The only problem with this classic line is that it's relatively easy to eventually propagate your genes with someone, even in this dysfunctional culture, as long as you go out enough and talk to enough women. And the whole notion of "beautiful woman" is biased because in Mystery's and his followers view, only dolled up 18-25 year olds are beautiful or "perfect 10s", and since the techniques play on these women's insecurities (typical for girls this age) they are lauded as superior; ie. they get the "best women". If the techniques don't work, and they won't on older more intelligent women it is said that these women are not the best anyway. yada yada and you can say that the techniques are engineered to get the highest quality women and they won't work on the lower value women (anyone over 25). It's PUA slight of hand basically. Thing is, with evolutionary biology arguments you can prove just about anything. Lots of makeup is called superior beauty and immaturity is called exceptional femininity. Therefore, the (dysfunctional) techniques work on the "most beautiful, most feminine women".

Interestingly, Mystery comes from Toronto, Ontario. So his techniques are an adaptation to the type of women there. It's very telling and I would say useful from an academic point of view. Such techniques do not work well on women who have not been exposed to feminist dogma. And since Toronto is extremely politically correct, feminism thrives there, ruining relationships between men and women. I can attest that it's a very bad city to meet women. Even the best women relatively speaking leave a lot to be desired. But if I post this complaint on a PUA forum the majority of responses are going to be, do more push/pull, qualifying, compliance testing etc. That will not work when you are up against indoctrinated fear and hatred of males. I had to move away from Toronto for that main reason, and things are better where I am. But since I'm still in Ontario, the problems still exist, but to a lesser degree.

Don't get me wrong, I do think men honestly need to look at themselves and be willing to fix their issues. But we also can't ignore that women need to do their part too. THAT is what is missing from this culture: criticism of females. The assumption is always that men need to do the self-improvement part. But learning how to meet women will only go anywhere if the women are willing to do their part. Why should I put my best foot forward and go to all these lengths to meet women when they have already made up their mind that they don't want to meet me. Why throw pearls to swine? Sure, you can argue that maybe I'm doing something wrong. And that's possible, but if it is always assumed that the guy is at fault, then is it not likely that, in the absence of forced female introspection, women will become increasingly blind to their own shortcomings? And as a result, is it not likely that the true fault will eventually shift to women for the most part.

But nope, don't criticize women. Instead cope, be a man, and keep a positive attitude. Like the site owner said, a positive attitude won't help if women have an axe to grind. One thing I've learned is that a positive attitude helps but not with women who act like stone-faced gatekeepers. I've gone into many situations with a positive attitude and gotten burned. Sh*t happens. Just tell that to the survivors of a natural disaster who seconds before were living and enjoying life. You do not have control over everything. It's a certain new-age BS that has creeped into many people's thinking that has made a mockery of rational thinking.

Another point I want to make is that good looks don't help that much in this feminist climate. I know this because I've gotten many girls and a few guys tell me I'm very good looking, but that doesn't help that much. Most girls when they see me automatically assume I'm a player who will only use them, so even though they might be attracted they are indoctrinated to resist alpha males. So it's very ironic that if every woman assumed that I get all the girls -- but as a matter of principle I won't get her -- then I will hook up with nobody! Fortunately, I do hook up once in a while (definitely not often) but only with those few women who don't care that much who else I might be f*cking. It's funny how that works, but it's basically sexual politics. If you are a Democrat, and by definition the strong alpha guy is a Republican then you will refuse to be with them because they are your political enemy. Men, or rather masculinity in this feminized country, is the political enemy of the extreme Left. The result is a socialist unspoken tyranny against men. You see this everywhere. If you just keep your eyes open. This tyranny is most played out in divorce courts, custody battles, domestic violence, funding of women's programs vs. men's, and the whole dating sphere.

So in closing, I have eventually concluded that I need to travel to meet quality women on a consistent basis. It is not necessarily overseas, but it can just be in other cities in the province; places that for whatever reason might not be as strongly indoctrinated in feminism and male-hating. Of course, I'm sure the real improvement will be to go overseas. The truth is that I can't improve myself more than I have, so all that's left is to go where the women are themselves improved.

[Andrewww]

I actually spent 6 months in Toronto doing an internship. Dating is a money driven economy back there. If you're a poor student your chances of getting a girlfriend are slim to none.

The Toronto women will smile, will talk nice to you, they'll be up for some small talk but that's it. Inside they're pure ice and they have 0 social skills. It's just like New York, good for those that want to make money in the financial sector working 12 hours a day, bad for those that want a life.

Montreal is better for p4p but it's still a shithole. Canada is identical to the USA, don't delude yourself.