Women and How they value men's looks

[onethousandknives]

What I think personally with American women as far as the ideal goes, and what could be your problem is not that your face looks bad, but that American women prefer a "harder" looking face. Your face is just in general too soft looking. I feel like with American culture, as far as how media goes, people are pretty much always photographed in somewhat of a scowl almost all the time. If you look at that woman, you can almost see her doing it as well. The difference I think is that she forcefully manipulates her face to make somewhat of a smile, whereas you just took a picture of you as a "default" type of face without actually trying for a facial expression, if that makes sense? I think in America, you're not allowed to have a "neutral" facial expression, and thinking now (as I brought up in another thread about people thinking I'm foreign) you either have to be a scowling tough guy or walk around looking like a used car salesman with a "business smile" (as that woman in the picture has.)

I think going further, I think the trend as far as women and men in USA is not looks of innocence, happiness, etc. But it's much more a look of edgy or "hard" for both sexes, as far as what's considered "hot" by the media. This goes sort of to the "bad boy" thing. I could explain it a bit more, but you don't look like a "bad boy." In that sense, I don't think physical features and whatnot even so much matter. Look at Eminem for example, Eminem does not have a big head and or big jawline. He's not fat so it might make it look slightly more stronger jawed than he is, but he does not have a wider type of face and jawline like say, Brad Pitt. So I think it comes down more to expression. http://rs1img.memecdn.com/thats-right-e ... 748851.jpg Eminem had in his youth, a much more different expression. Even compare his 1990s pictures, the jawline is much less pronounced as he's at normal bodyfat levels (not gaunt like today in 2014.) But he was still quite popular and not considered "ugly" by people. Why? Because his face changed from "nice" to "hard." Either naturally or because his agents/handlers told him to make his facial expressions that way.

So I think as far as the American Hollywood influence of looks, is the bigger thing than your actual physical cosmetic features. Your amount of "hardness" you accumulate over time. The "hardness" is what makes you "hot." In some ways, even "hot" is a sort of American term. As far as I understand it, in other countries "hot" doesn't even exist. Someone can be cute, and by being cute, this implies happiness and innocence about them, or someone is beautiful. "Hot" I think implies just someone's capacity for pure sexual mating, not so much beauty. By this like, a figure skater or ballerina is beautiful, but a girl twerking could be "hot" but it is not beautiful. If that makes any sense. Beautiful implies like, a higher level thinking, and "hot" implies base instinctual level thinking.

Anyway, might be totally pointless of me to say this all, but it's what I think. But no, your face doesn't need plastic surgery or drugs or anything like that. Obviously you're not a male model or anything, but I'd say that girl is definitively your "league" or whatever, if she is a 8, you are an 8, if you are a 3, then she is a 3. This is certainly not some case of some 300lb fat guy with 3 chins posting the same girl and going woe is me and expecting everyone to cheer lead in a male "you go girl! you're beautiful no matter what they say!" or anything like that, so to call yourself a 3 (totally devaluing yourself) and her an 8 (a very much overvalued image of her compared to your own rated image) is a bit delusional. But I think the "hardness" quality is what makes someone "hot" in America, both for women and men.

[pandabear]

I am new to this forum, so I don't know where to post this topic.

It seems to me that I am an unattractive man, that my looks are below average.
Here is one of my best pictures:
https://plus.google.com/115716624409280 ... 9280781844
I am about 30 years old, my height is about 5'9.5-5'10, and I weigh about 145 lbs.

Those were my approximate dimensions at that age.

For example, I had experienced a very harsh rejection from a hot American woman. She is generally considered to rate 8-8.5 by her looks. Here is what she looks like: http://m.c.lnkd.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shrin ... 440ed3.jpg
I have been shamed and told "how dare you go so far above your league. How dare you go for someone who looks model beautiful. She probably has hundreds of guys better looking than you hitting on her."

That's your idea of "model beautiful?" I'd give her a 2. You've been in America far too long.

I am considering to get some plastic surgeries. I don't like my large protruding ears, and I am hoping to get a surgery that will reduce them. Also, I would like to get a jawline surgery to get a chiseled jaw and a lip implant to get fuller lips. If I would have had money, then I would be ready to get a leg-lengthening surgery to increase my height. But that is too expensive and too painful for me to get.

Now you're being ridiculous.

I am looking to target European women, from both Western Europe and Eastern Europe. My question is as follows: will slender, non-obese European women turn me down because of my looks? Do European women place such importance in a man's looks as much as American women do? Or will I still need to get plastic surgery if I don't want fatties?

I don't know, but you might consider giving Thailand or the Philippines a try.

[newbgold]

Thank you guys again for your input.

I would not agree with you that the woman is hideous or a 2 by her looks. Not at all.
She is not overweight, rather, she is possibly underweight. She does not have a triple or quadruple chin, but rather, she has a skinny face. All those things don't make her ugly. And she is not a total monster by personality either. She has a rather nice and personable demeanor at times.

Onethousandknives, you are 100% correct about what you said about "hard" vs "soft" faces of men. I did notice that men that care considered "hot" tend to have very harsh faces and tend to scowl. The look that some of these "hot" men have is that of "don't dare to mess with me". They just have a look of a total jerk.
I think that all these Hollywood male superstars such as Brad Pitt look like jerks. Brad Pitt may be a very friendly, caring, and gentle person in real life at home, but the expression on his face is that of asshole. And that is why he is considered to be the quintessence of male handsomeness and attractiveness. And it seems to me that for the last 30-33 years, Hollywood and corporate media perpetuate the ideal of the harsh, jerky, insensitive male look as most desirable. Worse, they force women and others to believe that such a look as the only one that is attractive. After three decades of propaganda, women have been conditioned to accept such an edgy expression as the best. This is a far cry from the more liberated 1970s, with movies like "Annie Hall", when Woody Allen's sensitive and caring character with a "soft" face could easily attract a decent-looking woman like Diane Keaton's character. There were indeed times in US when being a harsh man was not so necessary to score with women. I think that feminism contributed only a small portion to the frustrating current state with women. I think that there are other forces more at play in the current situation.
I know that my own facial expression is "soft". And that is a minus when it comes to attracting women. Is there something that I can do to obtain a "harder" looking facial expression?

[onethousandknives]

Well, besides your personality and either going through terrible horrible life experiences to create permascowls and 1000 yard stares, there's two things at play. First is bodyfat. At 145 and 5'9 you're likely not fat but could be "skinnyfat" as in, over 15% bodyfat or 20% bodyfat even, but still within a healthy BMI range. Your face changes a lot with bodyfat, and anyone will develop a "chiseled" jaw if their bodyfat is low enough for them to have no fat on their chin, even if their jawbones are small. It's the same reason why like, a skinny Thai boxer with abs looks muscular when fighting but in a t-shirt looks like a skinny nerd and why some fatter people will look "big" in the muscular sense in a t-shirt but then look sloppy with their shirt off at the beach, both are sort of visual illusions in the opposite direction. One is muscular but fat, and the other is not muscular but skinny. So if you dropped bodyfat, you'd get a more "chiseled" facial expression but you'd also look even more frail as far as how the rest of your body looks. If you lift weights and add muscle and lose fat, you could not be as frail looking, but building lots of muscle is hard without hormones (note, do not believe any trainer who says you can gain like 20lbs of muscle in a year or something) so lots of people put a lot of eggs into the lifting and gaining muscle basket hoping for a drastic physique change in a couple months and get disappointed when it doesn't happen.

The other direction is hormones which are used by Hollywood stars. Higher androgen levels=stronger jawline. Goes even further with HGH. Hormone use will change your facial structure, in fact it's debatable that the jaw bones are the last growing bones in the body, so when exposed to androgens they get bigger even as an adult. With HGH, it's the same thing, causes growth of tissues. Besides plastic surgery, this is a big thing with male Hollywood stars. It's why like, Arnold Schwarzenegger isn't very lean anymore (over 20% bodyfat easily) but still has a very chiselled masculine jawline. Obviously nobody knows this for sure as in X person obviously uses X but it's very likely lots of the older Hollywood stars take doctor prescribed testosterone at a modest dose and HGH as well. Sylvester Stallone got arrested for bringing HGH into Australia a while back for his own personal use, so I'm not saying this baselessly. Whether or not you wish to do this is your call. Obviously it's safer than plastic surgery and getting metal plates in your legs or whatever, but it's still not (in my opinion) very safe to do. Your personality will change in some manner, you could become more domineering, arrogant, lusting for power, etc, basically become the enemy if you would, but it could change you for the better. It depends on what path you want and who or what you want to attract. If a woman only loves the hormonized you, does she love you?

I think as far as current trends, what we see is not so much feminism but a societal reversion back to the primitive, to turn humans into beasts. Instead of a man being judged for the content of his character, and traits like kindness and humility emphasized, now men are judged by their strength and power and how "alpha" they are, at least in the media. Instead of chastity and gracefulness being rewarded as a woman, the opposite traits are, the media's ideal woman is loud and obnoxious and has many many sexual partners in her life and talks about sex and shows her sexuality everywhere she goes. Revert man to a beast.

[pandabear]

A few weeks or months in a place like Thailand and you'll be feeling a heck of a lot better about yourself.





By the way, an easy way to build some upper body muscles: put 5 pound weights around your wrists, and walk 30-45 minutes per day.

As for the object of your unrequited passion: you're still in limerance, and are unable to evaluate her with objectivity. She ain't worth it. Basically, all that a woman has to do in America is just not be obese, and then she has her choice of drooling men, at least until she approaches The Wall, and then it's over.

[WorldTraveler]

Just to let you know, it doesn't matter how good looking you are. I had a friend who was a solid 8 and he had a hard time getting laid or getting a girlfriend in the USA.

Have you gotten on Filipino Cupid or another foreign dating site? You need to do this and then report back to us.

[Maverick]

Another issue for you, OP, (maybe even more than looks) is that you may be too nice. I actually just went on a date where not only did the woman say that I'm not her type (ie: I'm too short, despite the fact that she's a 4'11 Filipina, and not good-looking enough for her), but she also said that I'm too nice. She's older (32) and desperate though so she's "willing to give me another chance". On our next date (if it actually happens), I'm going to be more of an asshole and will try to get her into bed.

So this could be another issue for you in the US: you may be too nice of a guy. To women outside the US, this is a good thing. To women in the US, this is as bad as being short and ugly (which are the worst offenses to women here).

[pandabear]

I quoted several ideas in here:

http://sexualobjectification.blogspot.c ... ality.html

Basically, women respond physically (i.e., get moist down there) when men act assertively or aggressively. Being nice to them isn't going to do it.

One of the reasons women start fights is that they really enjoy the make-up sex.

[hammanta]

To the op,

I'm not gonna reiterate what others have said but this: You gotta start pumping the iron. I know this is gonna come off as broscience but 145lbs at 5'10" is a rather unhealthy look. You are an average looking guy (by no means a 3) that could benefit from gaining a solid 20-30lbs of muscle. Not only will it help your looks but your confidence will improve so much. I'd start reading up on some of the latest fitness articles. I'm a powerlifter now so I know the legit stuff but there's a lot bs out there so be careful. You will just have to do your research and talk to knowledgeable people.

I graduated high school at 5'9" 145lbs. I started hitting the weights and in a year or so time I went up to 175lbs with similar body fat levels. I'm at 190lbs with about 12% body fat now at age 25. A good fit body usually matters more to women than a quality face. It truly is amazing when I have people tell me that haven't seen me in years say "wow you got jacked, or you look amazing." You have no idea what that will do for your confidence.

On a side note, you may want to join a cause or get into something on the side to give you a purpose and meet people. Taking classes or volunteering are good ways to better yourself. I volunteer with 2 different organizations and have met some awesome people and women to boot. Those two a lone have saved me from some dark moments in life by simply providing me a purpose, and killing those lonely times as they keep be pretty busy. Free time is one of the worst things to have when you feel lonely or depressed.

[pandabear]

Regarding your 8.5, you may want to consider Roosh's observations:

http://www.rooshv.com/rating-scale

"...The problem is that guys give every girl a 7 or 8 when that’s far from the case....The 1-10 scale, unfortunately, has failed. If Virgle Kent or Roissy tells me they went out with an 8 I’ll know exactly what we’re working with, but any other guy and the 8 will probably not be an 8. She’d just be okay."

[pandabear]

...You gotta start pumping the iron...145lbs at 5'10" is a rather unhealthy look. You are an average looking guy (by no means a 3) that could benefit from gaining a solid 20-30lbs of muscle....

....or....



By the way, these guys



were quite thin by modern standards, and never found it to be at all difficult to get laid.

On the other hand, Charles Atlas did advertise in comic books during that epoch, also.



It could be more of an American thing that chicks want muscles.

[hammanta]

...You gotta start pumping the iron...145lbs at 5'10" is a rather unhealthy look. You are an average looking guy (by no means a 3) that could benefit from gaining a solid 20-30lbs of muscle....

....or....



By the way, these guys



were quite thin by modern standards, and never found it to be at all difficult to get laid.

On the other hand, Charles Atlas did advertise in comic books during that epoch, also.



It could be more of an American thing that chicks want muscles.

I wasn't saying he needed to look like a muscle bound freak head and 20-30lbs of muscle is by no means impossible nor unnatural. Becoming fit for the approval of other people is a poor reason to get fit to begin with. It's about gaining confidence in oneself and reaching goals, which for the OP, may put him over the hump that he is in. The physical appeal is second in nature.

I've never heard a women say that a muscular fit man was a turn off no matter what culture they are from. Now I'm not referring to a bodybuilder or some massive meat head. I am also not saying it is a necessity to get women, though neither is job but most desire a man with one.

I don't think my advice was that much for him to swallow. Spending a little time researching then putting that research to use a few times a week isn't very difficult. Of course if one wants to continue the American lifestyle of wings, beer, and consequential complaining about health problems, walking up stairs and the lack of attractive putang then by all means carry on with that lifestyle.

[pandabear]

Well, I don't think that his dimensions are necessarily unhealthy (although it is always good to get some exercise).

But, if he goes to, say, the Philippines--ALL of the men are skinny there, so it won't be an issue.

[hammanta]

Well, I don't think that his dimensions are necessarily unhealthy (although it is always good to get some exercise).

But, if he goes to, say, the Philippines--ALL of the men are skinny there, so it won't be an issue.

Perhaps I should had worded it better than unhealthy. 145lbs at his height isn't unhealthy but doesn't necessarily allude to a strong frame.

But yes you are correct, Filipinos are quite petite and he will be above average there.

[pandabear]

If he prefers White chicks, he could check out Winston's videos of his Russia trips. Winston isn't exactly Arnold Schwartzenegger, either, and he did all right over there. With our obesity epidemic, I wonder if American chicks prefer fat guys to skinny guys?

Oh, and forget about Miss 8.0 to 8.5. She isn't worth your time.