Approaching Taiwan girls - Response to Winston

[Winston]

Hi Rock,

I just realized something.

We both forgot an important factor that affects me.

I am spoiled... in the Philippines that is.

You see, there I'm used to getting girls just by saying "Hi you're very maganda (beautiful in Tagalog)" and then the conversation flows easily from there with no effort. Just by doing that, I've gotten dates, attention, made friends, chatmates and gotten laid too.

So you see, in dating and pick up terms, I'm like a spoiled rich boy in a mansion who gets what he wants handed to him on a silver platter. So to go to Taiwan and try to "work on" meeting girls with game or strategies or methods, etc. would be like taking the spoiled rich boy and making him plow the fields on the farm for his food, instead of handed to him by the butler.

You see what I mean? I'm used to getting girls easy. So it's not acceptable for me to go way down and try to get them the normal way (work hard to get them in other words) in a 1st world country, especially in a country where the people have a very different exterior and mentality than me. It's like a downgrade and demotion. Kind of like asking you to use a payphone from now on instead of your cell phone. lol

See what I mean?

Plus, even when I do get introduced to Taiwanese girls, usually I won't have much in common with them anyway. See here for an exact list of general differences between them and me:

http://www.happierabroad.com/Winston_vs_Asians.pdf

In other words, we do not usually connect. I notice this when I talk to them on MSN messenger too, not just in person.

The only TW girls I find that I have more in common are the traveling types, like from Couchsurfing.com or HospitalityClub.org. They are more open minded, into new cultures and experiences, and more broad minded as well, and do not have the standard "workaholic" mentality that TW people usually have.

However, when I meet them, it's usually platonic, meaning they just like being friends and hanging out, nothing intimate or tense. Their dream is to travel, not find a boyfriend. You see?

In the PDF file above, are you more like me or them or in between?

Just wanted you to keep these factors in mind.

Btw, my experience about overseas Taiwanese is the opposite of yours. I find that overseas Taiwanese are friendlier cause they've had to open themselves up to be abroad and find it refreshing and familiar to meet with another Taiwanese and rebond with their own again, kind of like how Americans are more likely to talk to each other if they meet overseas than if they meet in their own country. Imagine if you were in some distant exotic country full of blacks or arabs and you finally see another white American. He and you would be glad to greet each other and exchange notes usually. It'd be refreshing to see another of your kind for a while right? However, if you met the same fellow in NYC on a busy street full of white people passing by, you'd have no reason to talk to him, right? That's why I find overseas Taiwanese to be a bit friendlier, since they may feel a bit lost and would like to bond with their own.

[Winston]

Rock,
One more question.

When you used to approach TW girls, what was the first thing you usually said?

I mean, looking at them, I can tell that if I said in Chinese, "Hi how are you?" they would NOT say "I'm good. How about you?" I would not get that typical Western response from a TW girl I was trying to meet. No way. They don't work that way.

You see how unnatural this process is?

No smiles, no eye contact, no "how are you", etc. Seems like a dead end to me.

So what do you do? Ask some innocent question like the time or how to get to market street?

[Winston]

Rock,
As a demonstration of my deep accurate insight, see these responses below from Westerners who say that what I write about Taiwanese and Asians in general are remarkably accurate in their experience, including where I say that TW girls only talk to those who are introduced to them. Some have lived in Taiwan as long as you or even longer. See the parts I've bolded.

http://www.happierabroad.com/Asian_Ment ... ponses.htm

Impressive..

That is basicaly most of the things I felt since a few moment after I arrived in Taiwan, working and beeing managed by taiwanese people.
Are you still here or you left?

I actually have a good life here but dealing with taiwanese people makes my life much more hard compares to the ease of life that a foreigner can have in asia. They manage to piss me off most of my working days due to bad decisions or weird behviors all related to the points you mentioned in your article.

Seems like you actually managed to write down those ideas and feelings I have in mind.

Hao.

U have an awesome critical point of view and understanding of people and Ur article will be read with a lot of attention by a bunch of my friends who are having a hard time dealing with taiwanese exactly because they try to give sense to things, in a country where there is not and where they don t want it. (and don t even understand the purpose or not even see what was originaly wrong)

Beeing managed by them is also terrible since they think giving you pressure and pushing you to ur limits by makin you feel guilty will make you work better...
those behaviors actually makes me do the opposite due to my conception of life and relation with people.
I can be quite good in my job but I never felt so bad and unmotivated since I'm managed by them.

Would be happy to hear about ur experience in Taiwan.

Thanks for ur writing,

Alex.

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"My Friend,

My wife is Taiwanese, I am American ie USA Citizen. Taiwanese women are not happy, never smile and have been taught or breed to be reverent in public. I time in Taiwan has totaled over 2.5 years.

TW people do not start Living their own lives until after 30 years old before that they are still children and much be respectful at all times.

most are boring too. I would encourage you to find a good girl with your same goals, views, EXPECTATIONS, and believes. As far as how to meet them it is best to be introduced. As weird as that sounds. They find that very natural. That is why a good paying career in Taiwan is Match Maker.

Good Lunch"

Next response:

"My wife is beautiful, my kids, are cute I live in southern california, just got laid off from work and am thinking about heading to tw for work.
I am extremely out going and experienced a lot that you experienced. Saw that you saw. I am a white American and my first time in Taiwan I was a lds missionary or Mormon missionary. A year and a half after I completed my 2 year calling in Taiwan I went back to Taiwan to teach English.

The second time I was there I felt a lot like you. I just wanted to make friends with pretty girls but when I would approach them or say something to them they just give you a blank stare.

I am a happy person and I have noticed here in the USA Asian women never smile in public.

I think it has to be a little genetic. Our lives are so blessed I think a smile will show greatfulness.

In Taiwan I hang out with a lot of people who are my parents age. I met a group of nice people at the local pool.

So yes you are right the old people will talk to strangers especially when they find out I speak Chinese.

Enjoy the phillipino people they truely are nice."

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Winston

I just finished reading your article....

The Repressive Singularity of Traditional Asian/Oriental Mentality

I came to Taiwan 37 years ago as a missionary. I've been either in Taiwan, Hong Kong, or China for 33 of those years. Whereas I am not a "free spirit" like you (Hey, I'm a missionary with all the hazards thereunto apertaining!), yet your take on cultural analysis was very much similar to many of my own observations.

In a few days I'm going to be "orienting" four foreign couples (one from US, two from Australia, one from Philippines). They are more or less clueless about Taiwanese and Chinese culture. The 26 pages you wrote will choke them. Yet, I found what you wrote true to my experience. I will probably (someday) shorten your ideas, but for now I just wanted to thank you for sharing your thoughts.

John

PS When did you write this?

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Subject: Married to a Taiwanese woman
To Winston,

My name is Murray, I'm an Australian and white, I live in Taiwan and I'm Married to a Taiwanese woman. My wife's name is Kelly (sorry I can't type in Chinese just yet).

I was reading your ideas and views here http://www.happierabroad.com/Asian_Mentality.htm
and I have to agree, what you have written is pretty much smack bang on target.

When I first arrived in Taiwan I couldn't speak any Chinese (Mandarin). My wife (then GF) would have to translate for me or just simply answer first without telling me the question.

Since then, I have learnt to speak Chinese and I must say, some days I think I would be better off without knowing what Taiwanese people say. Within 6 months my Chinese was at a basic level, that's when I started getting asked "how much do you earn"? I was asked this by my wife's mum (mom) everyday and it became rather annoying. I know other foreigners get the same questions as me.

I have heard "you're too fat, lose some weight" and "Don't drink too much ...... or don't eat too much that" almost every second day.

My private affairs seem to be family affairs, and family affairs are nothing to do with me since I'm white. My wife's sister wouldn't acknowledge me in anyway, even saying hello was out of the question.

Nowadays, My family-in-law accept me and allow me more freedom. I think this is mainly due to the fact I have a strong personality and I don't do anything that I can't see the logic in doing.

A quick example of my life now.

I'm sick right now. I think I'm sick because I ate some night market food that was bad. My wife constantly yells at me and tells me that I should do more exercise and I wouldn't get sick. Then she will start asking "Have you taken your Medicine yet"? "Do you want to see a doctor"? ( my 3rd visit to a doctor in 2 days) or even "Why should I take care of you if you don't take care of yourself"?

My wife can be very caring and compassionate, but if I give cause for the smallest discomfort, she will start a torrent of verbal abuse and usually end with "Why don't we just get a divorce"? ( in my six months of marriage, I have heard this particular line about 30 times). Of course, the next day she is back to being the sweet innocent wife that only loves and cares for her husband.

Thank you for reading this far Winston. Your words and ideas have let me know, I'm not the only one who is seeing and feeling this, it's common all throughout asia ( or the orient).

Murray
Australian, 25 yrs old, lived in Taiwan 2 years, 6 months.

[Winston]

Rock,
Here now are some letters to me about Taiwanese culture that are somewhere in between your views and mine.

http://www.happierabroad.com/phpBB2/vie ... 4&start=15

I just flew back from Taipei today.

Many of Winston's observations are true in specific circumstances, or generalizations. However I think taking them as facts would be too extreme (black & white view). There are too many exceptions to list, and despite Chinese culture having a legalist history, its people and culture is large and wide.

Also, individual family circumstances differ. Some people generalize Asian culture as being male dominant. In my family the daughters (my mother & aunts) are the eldest and sons youngest, so the strongest heads of the family has always been women, and their husbands are excluded from discussions regarding inheritance.

Winston made many points and I cannot cover all of them, so I'll just touch up on a few briefly while I'm trying to get over my jet lag. Yes, it's not common for Taiwanese to greet each other in the parks and on the street, unless if they live in the same community. For example, while walking around my grandparent's condo building, I have to smile and greet the neighbors & even the janitor and mail man. They don't know my name, but knows me as the eldest grand-child to my grandparents on 3F. Had I been a stranger, they'd have stopped me and asked who I was and why I was there (neighborhood watch?). People approach strangers with guarded caution.

I think many Taiwanese parents might consider a proper bed time to be around 9pm-10pm, but Taipei also has one of the busiest night life through night market areas in Shilin, Danshui, Ximending, etc. that opens past midnight, where teenagers and young adults congregate. In comparison the night life in US looks quite dead.

For most Taiwanese, their first social circles were probably school friends, then moving up the grade levels to college, and on to coworkers. People tend to keep multiple cliques and don't usually mix them. i.e. college friends would not be invited to an outing with high school friends or coworkers, unless if you're dating or married to the person.

However, times are changing. Today many young people are meeting in clubs, internet social networking, dating sites/services, etc. It's also very possible to chat up girls at night markets, then take them to shrimp fishing ponds or Danshui old street for games and fun, then a quick bus ride to fishermen's wharf and walk across lover's bridge to pubs with live music. Or if the weather isn't too hot, take the MRT to the Taipei Zoo and take the gondola up to Maokung.

IF you get lucky, Taipei has many beautifully decorated lover's hotels, though personally, I prefer hot springs/spa with room in Wulai. The water there is nice like the hot springs in Yilan/Chao-shi, unlike the sulfuric smelling waters in Yangmingsan.

And if you're really lucky (or worked hard on) to be borned with good looks, girls will hit on you on the MRT trains (shuey-gue! shuey-gue!) -- I've seen this happen. If you have any questions on what girls there think is attractive, tune in to any young adult drama on TV and check out the leading male actors. (i.e. Sparrow love Phoenix 麻雀愛上鳳凰). Sorry, but I think both of us flunked out in this category. J

On the issue of work and play, IMO there's nothing wrong with installing some discipline into children, least they become lazy fat bums. However, all things should be done in moderation. One should have a balanced life between work and play, and not live to work.

A mistake that many Asians make is that they work their butts off in pursuit of "moving target" goals. Today it's $50,000 BMW, tomorrow it's $500,000 condo, next week it's $1,000,000 house. Gee, if you spend 14 hours at work and only use your million dollar house for its bed and toilet, what's the point?

I have a few favorite authors, among them John C Bogle and Kiyosaki. The first advocates wealth through compounding interest, the second through passive income. In both cases they teach you to let your money work for you, and not the other way around. Smart people use their money to make more money, live within their means, and not work their butts off just for money. This is a very important lesson to learn.

p.s. for the younger Taiwanese girls, many don't like men wearing "too formal" outfits like dress shirts and slacks. They like cool/hip looking men wearing sportswear or Gap/A&F outfits, like sweaters/hoodies with stylish jeans. A&F (Abercrombie & Fitch) is having their change-of-season sale this week and many clothing items are marked down by 50% or more at the store. I picked up some designer shirts there for $15. Good opportunity to buy and save $$!

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Dear Winston,

I stumbled upon your website and was compelled enough by your writings to formulate a response. You and I are very similar in that I also am a Taiwanese-American who grew up mostly in the US (on the East Coast) and have lived in 7 different states (NY, NJ, GA, ME, PA, OH, MI) as well as 5 countries (US, Taiwan, Venezuela, France, Chile). Judging from your picture I estimate that I am a few years younger than you (26) but certainly do share the same passion for cultural learning (I speak English, Mandarin, and Spanish fluently; have a workable command of Turkish and am progressing well in Arabic).

Similarities aside, we also have very many differences, primarily in thought… I was impressed by your truthful and uninhibited writings, and certainly cannot object to any of the facts which you have written as they clearly are the truth. However, I do have very strong reservations with your personal analyses, not due to the conclusions you draw in themselves, but what they reveal and represent. Your words make it seem as if you feel that Western cultures are superior to those of Asia and that you even feel ashamed of your ethnicity.

First of all, I must make a very clear distinction and ask that you not confuse culture with stereotype. Much of what you say (in regards to materialism and competition) that is very critical certainly does not represent the roots of culture, but rather symptoms (equivalent to stereotypes) and are painted in a very negative light out of context. Yes it is true about the strictness, rigor, and demand placed upon children... but is this because we are just horribly concerned with winning the race of capitalism or perhaps more so because we just wish the best for our future generations? Do we not place a high level of emphasis on individualism because we have no capability for creative though or perhaps because we value tradition, heritage, and the greater society?

Regardless of the intent, it is clear that certain aspects of our culture can bring about very harsh feelings such as those which you harbor. But to say that this is justification for supporting the superiority of one culture over another is not only irresponsible but also dangerous. Certainly you could say that Latin American culture places a greater emphasis on enjoyment and that people have more "fun" than in Taiwan (very true of Venezuela where I live today, even with the horrific economic and political turmoil facing this beautiful country)... but does that make them better? Conversely does the fact that our people have a notoriously high level of discipline and responsibility make Asian culture superior to those of Latin America (particularly the Andean regions) with a greater degree of laziness/lack of leadership or Sub-Saharan Africa with a higher level of corruption?

Of course the answer to both questions (at least in my eyes) is a resounding NO. When dealing with an issue such as culture I think that it is both infantile and irresponsible to attempt to make designations such as “better� or “worse�… there is only DIFFERENT. Your statements and examples not only bypass the positive stereotypes of Asian people but also make claim to cultural inferiority. I cannot help how you feel about yourself and if you wish to be known as an American/European/Latino in the body of an Asian, but I do hope that you could be more respectful than as to demean a culture. Your words bring an aura as if they could have come from the justifications of a Napoleon or Hitler. If you think this “cultural arrogance� has no relevance today than let me ask you to consider the role that religion plays in the definition of culture in many societies. How are you as a proponent of cultural superiority different from the religious superiority preached by Ahmadinejad, Bin Laden, or Jerry Falwell?

I don’t mean any of this to be insultory towards you; I make these points only to in hopes that you be more respectful towards the rights of any culture. Certainly there are negative points of Taiwanese culture, as there are positive… just as there are in every culture of this fascinating planet. Most importantly, there is a place in this world for all: the strict hard-working Asian cultures, the technologically shunning Amish or Bedouin, the family oriented Latino or West African, the entrepreneurial American, etc.... On one final note, please do not think of yourself, the freelancing Romantic or even myself, the adventurous risk-taker as exceptions to Taiwanese culture – we do not represent exceptions but possibilities. There is no right or wrong with possibilities: maybe one leads to riches and others to poverty, another to fame but there is no better or worse. Judging by the note you posted from your father it at least seems that you are beginning to forgive and accept (if not respect) multiculturalism, so please do not fall off of this track.

Whatever path we follow, all of the choices we make in life are influenced by the events of our past. Like it or not, your Taiwanese upbringing served to help shape the views (negatively or positively) that you hold today. I am personally very proud of my heritage and am very cognizant that I would not be where I am today without it. Whether you want to say that it was because of or in spite of my strict childhood, I would not have spent 3 months living out of tents and youth hostels in the South of France rock climbing after graduation; I would not have pursued a “traditional Asian� degree in Engineering at an elite University, nor have the professional success that I do today; I would not have moved to Chile or Venezuela where I am engaged to a Venezuelan woman and have been adopted as a new son into her criollo family; I would not have become involved in the Chinese community, American expat community, or pro-democracy movement in the midst of dictatorial takeover here; I would not have traveled to 70+ countries, discussing geo-politics with one of the Saudi crown princes, nor have been shot at by corrupt police sent to break up a peaceful march in Latin America. Similarly, whether because of or in spite of, you would not be adventuring around Russia if not for what happened in your past.

I send this to you as an open letter that you should feel free to publish from a different perspective that cherishes all of the world’s cultures. Best wishes with your continuing adventures.

Jon

[Rock]

Hi Rock,

I just realized something.

We both forgot an important factor that affects me.

I am spoiled... in the Philippines that is.

You see, there I'm used to getting girls just by saying "Hi you're very maganda (beautiful in Tagalog)" and then the conversation flows easily from there with no effort. Just by doing that, I've gotten dates, attention, made friends, chatmates and gotten laid too.

So you see, in dating and pick up terms, I'm like a spoiled rich boy in a mansion who gets what he wants handed to him on a silver platter. So to go to Taiwan and try to "work on" meeting girls with game or strategies or methods, etc. would be like taking the spoiled rich boy and making him plow the fields on the farm for his food, instead of handed to him by the butler.

You see what I mean? I'm used to getting girls easy. So it's not acceptable for me to go way down and try to get them the normal way (work hard to get them in other words) in a 1st world country, especially in a country where the people have a very different exterior and mentality than me. It's like a downgrade and demotion. Kind of like asking you to use a payphone from now on instead of your cell phone. lol

See what I mean?

Plus, even when I do get introduced to Taiwanese girls, usually I won't have much in common with them anyway. See here for an exact list of general differences between them and me:

http://www.happierabroad.com/Winston_vs_Asians.pdf

In other words, we do not usually connect. I notice this when I talk to them on MSN messenger too, not just in person.

The only TW girls I find that I have more in common are the traveling types, like from Couchsurfing.com or HospitalityClub.org. They are more open minded, into new cultures and experiences, and more broad minded as well, and do not have the standard "workaholic" mentality that TW people usually have.

However, when I meet them, it's usually platonic, meaning they just like being friends and hanging out, nothing intimate or tense. Their dream is to travel, not find a boyfriend. You see?

In the PDF file above, are you more like me or them or in between?

Just wanted you to keep these factors in mind.

Btw, my experience about overseas Taiwanese is the opposite of yours. I find that overseas Taiwanese are friendlier cause they've had to open themselves up to be abroad and find it refreshing and familiar to meet with another Taiwanese and rebond with their own again, kind of like how Americans are more likely to talk to each other if they meet overseas than if they meet in their own country. Imagine if you were in some distant exotic country full of blacks or arabs and you finally see another white American. He and you would be glad to greet each other and exchange notes usually. It'd be refreshing to see another of your kind for a while right? However, if you met the same fellow in NYC on a busy street full of white people passing by, you'd have no reason to talk to him, right? That's why I find overseas Taiwanese to be a bit friendlier, since they may feel a bit lost and would like to bond with their own.

Winston

Thanks for continuing to pursue this subject. There is a lot of info out there about meeting or picking-up girls in poor countries. But much less on non-western richer countries where I think a lot of great opportunities still exist. For example, one of your posters seems to be doing very well in Turkey.

The good thing about the more affluent countries is that once you establish a relationship, you’re much less likely to deal with the constant hand-out and support expectations. And the girls tend to be more educated and able to think and communicate closer to your own level, language and cultural differences aside. Specific to your ancestral home Taiwan, I believe there is a very large pool of women here who treat their men and close circle of family and friends extremely well with only innocent intentions. If you get serious with one, you may find that over time, she becomes more and more like you too.

Now going back to the Philippines, I do get your drift about how easy it is to meet girls in public areas, etc and it sounds interesting. So I have some basic questions. How long have you been there? How many non pay-for-play gals have you dated? What percentage have developed into intimacy?

I’m starting to suspect that our sometimes opposing views and experiences in Taiwan are due to us being quite different. Not only is it ABC vs. localized white guy. But perhaps I am somewhat narrow and practical minded which helps me to appreciate certain things here while you are an anti-materialistic free thinker type who finds the practical focus, structure, and implied rules here restrictive and oppressing. I would say I fall in the middle somewhere of your WWu vs. Chinese piece. For example, I’m not a conformist, make money for the financial freedom to fully enjoy life, and believe it or not, do not like most Chinese food.

One point which you seem to miss about Chinese - they are very family oriented, even today. They will often make selfless sacrifices for the sake of other family members or for the family as a whole. I on the other hand, am much more self-centered. I take responsibility for myself, don’t expect others to help solve my problems, but also generally put myself first in most circumstances. Many here would call that selfish.

The 500+ overseas Taiwan students at my university, mostly graduate students, were cliquish and many were suspicious about white guys too interested in their culture. If some of them didn’t like you, it was easy to get an unfavorable reputation with the group.

[Winston]

Winston

Thanks for continuing to pursue this subject. There is a lot of info out there about meeting or picking-up girls in poor countries. But much less on non-western richer countries where I think a lot of great opportunities still exist. For example, one of your posters seems to be doing very well in Turkey.

The good thing about the more affluent countries is that once you establish a relationship, you’re much less likely to deal with the constant hand-out and support expectations. And the girls tend to be more educated and able to think and communicate closer to your own level, language and cultural differences aside. Specific to your ancestral home Taiwan, I believe there is a very large pool of women here who treat their men and close circle of family and friends extremely well with only innocent intentions. If you get serious with one, you may find that over time, she becomes more and more like you too.

Now going back to the Philippines, I do get your drift about how easy it is to meet girls in public areas, etc and it sounds interesting. So I have some basic questions. How long have you been there? How many non pay-for-play gals have you dated? What percentage have developed into intimacy?

I’m starting to suspect that our sometimes opposing views and experiences in Taiwan are due to us being quite different. Not only is it ABC vs. localized white guy. But perhaps I am somewhat narrow and practical minded which helps me to appreciate certain things here while you are an anti-materialistic free thinker type who finds the practical focus, structure, and implied rules here restrictive and oppressing. I would say I fall in the middle somewhere of your WWu vs. Chinese piece. For example, I’m not a conformist, make money for the financial freedom to fully enjoy life, and believe it or not, do not like most Chinese food.

One point which you seem to miss about Chinese - they are very family oriented, even today. They will often make selfless sacrifices for the sake of other family members or for the family as a whole. I on the other hand, am much more self-centered. I take responsibility for myself, don’t expect others to help solve my problems, but also generally put myself first in most circumstances. Many here would call that selfish.

The 500+ overseas Taiwan students at my university, mostly graduate students, were cliquish and many were suspicious about white guys too interested in their culture. If some of them didn’t like you, it was easy to get an unfavorable reputation with the group.

I've been in the Philippines for three years. That's a long time for me in one place. Too long. I lost count of the girls I dated. But I think I've dated around a dozen non-pros.

When I talk to you on the phone, you do not sound Taiwanese minded at all. You sound open, honest, and objective.

Students tend to be cliquey, especially when there are other Asian students around that they can "clique" with. I was talking about chatting up Taiwanese overseas. You do get my analogy about you seeing another white guy in a remote African village as opposed to a typical public place in America right? In the village you are more likely to talk to him than you are in a typical public place in America. Right?

Yeah we may be different. But you saw the letters I posted from other foriegners here who saw the same things I did right?

One more question.

When you used to approach TW girls, what was the first thing you usually said?

I mean, looking at them, I can tell that if I said in Chinese, "Hi how are you?" they would NOT say "I'm good. How about you?" I would not get that typical Western response from a TW girl I was trying to meet. No way. They don't work that way.

You see how unnatural this process is?

No smiles, no eye contact, no "how are you", etc. Seems like a dead end to me.

So what do you do? Ask some innocent question like the time or how to get to market street?

[momopi]

I mean, looking at them, I can tell that if I said in Chinese, "Hi how are you?" they would NOT say "I'm good. How about you?" I would not get that typical Western response from a TW girl I was trying to meet. No way. They don't work that way.
You see how unnatural this process is?
No smiles, no eye contact, no "how are you", etc. Seems like a dead end to me.
So what do you do? Ask some innocent question like the time or how to get to market street?

If/when someone in TW stops you in the street and ask "How are you" or "Mister, how are you", it's because they want something from you. I'd reply "what are you selling".

Many Taiwanese girls are taught that they shouldn't date too much or have too many boyfriends prior to marriage, because it'd degrade their value to potential suitors (see: used car analogy), and in worse case, multiple prior failed BF/GF relationships turns their attitude sour.

Consider the negative perception on men who hit on girls in the streets in TW. Such men are viewed as player wanna be's and not marriage material. If the girl is just looking for a fling, there's better pickings for younger, better looking, and better dressed men in the clubs than hentai oyaji's who hang out in the streets.

Years ago we used to have a funny slang from HK, "goldfish grandpa". In old night markets, old men would bring tubs of goldfish for kids to pay and scoop. If you can scoop the goldfish into a bin, you get to take it home in a plastic bag. Since girl's school uniforms are serafuku-like with a skirt on the bottom, when little girls crotch down to scoop goldfish, the grandpa gets to peek at her panties. "Goldfish grandpa" was the slang we used for older sweaty palmed perverts chasing young p*ssy on the streets.

[Rock]

I've been in the Philippines for three years. That's a long time for me in one place. Too long. I lost count of the girls I dated. But I think I've dated around a dozen non-pros.

When I talk to you on the phone, you do not sound Taiwanese minded at all. You sound open, honest, and objective.

Students tend to be cliquey, especially when there are other Asian students around that they can "clique" with. I was talking about chatting up Taiwanese overseas. You do get my analogy about you seeing another white guy in a remote African village as opposed to a typical public place in America right? In the village you are more likely to talk to him than you are in a typical public place in America. Right?

Yeah we may be different. But you saw the letters I posted from other foriegners here who saw the same things I did right?

One more question.

When you used to approach TW girls, what was the first thing you usually said?

I mean, looking at them, I can tell that if I said in Chinese, "Hi how are you?" they would NOT say "I'm good. How about you?" I would not get that typical Western response from a TW girl I was trying to meet. No way. They don't work that way.

You see how unnatural this process is?

No smiles, no eye contact, no "how are you", etc. Seems like a dead end to me.

So what do you do? Ask some innocent question like the time or how to get to market street?

You’ve said a lot about Taiwan and the Taiwanese. But I want to narrow the focus down to one issue – meeting, dating, and sometimes mating with non-pro locals.

Some say it’s difficult to impossible, others say it’s a piece of cake. I say it depends.

As I've said, Taiwan can provide a deal making handicap to many guys - typical profile might be your average frustrated 30 something beta male from the States who falls within a reasonable range on looks and personality.

But the guy still usually needs to be proactive about it – figuring out ways to connect with certain people here and following through with action. In an earlier post, I gave you 6 cases – 3 did well at pulling strangers and the other 3 did not. Personally, I have done great compared to my almost non-existent experience in the States and Western Europe.

You asked how I approach a stranger. Well, there are hundreds of ways depending on the circumstances, your mood, etc. After you’ve done it enough, you rely on your gut and perhaps some creativity. Sometimes people open up to you and other times they don’t. The interactions are driven by human emotions so I see it more as a heuristic process than an algorithmic application of rigid phrases and techniques.

When I was really into it, my behavior got compulsive for awhile. If I saw a girl I liked who was not with a guy or big group and didn’t approach her, I would later regret it and kick myself. So in spite of my fear and shy nature, I approached many girls in widely varied circumstances. Most of the girls I approached were in their early to late 20s and attractive or better by my standards. Here are 14 examples – 7 successful and 7 rejections:

S1: Current girlfriend: Saw her at the entrance of a club and later told one of her friends inside that I was interested in knowing her. Friend went out the dance floor, brought her to me, we chatted for a couple quick minutes, exchanged numbers and then I left. Used the phone to follow-up and develop things.

S2: A former girlfriend: Saw her walking slowly alone near my apartment building, walked along with her and started chatting, exchanged phone and email, and developed friendship over the phone and then some bowling dates. She initially had boyfriend of 3 years but dumped him a couple months later and was with me for nearly a year thereafter. By the way, I think the line I used in her case was something like: “Hey you look lost. Maybe you need a new friend. I like to make friends too. Lets be friends OK?...then her curious response…then my follow-up…and eventually a request for contact details, done, call you sometime or you call me, bye.

S3: Friend w/ benefits: Saw her working at the Acer stand at a computer fair (Computex I think). Asked her about laptops, then told her I wanted to get to know her. She kind of froze-up but then gave me her name card and I gave her my phone and email. Followed-up with phone and email exchanges and started dating about 10 days later.

S4: Friend w/ benefits: Saw her at Fridays during lunch sitting at a table next to the window with a girlfriend and discreetly walked by to get a better look – very nice. But I was with a co-worker so did not approach her then. When we left the restaurant, I split from him, called the restaurant and was able to convince whoever answered to bring the girl to the phone (I explained table location and what she was wearing). When she answered, I just told her the truth – I had seen her there a few minutes earlier and was interested in knowing her. She giggled and asked me if I was one of the foreigners who had just left a few minutes before. I said yes and then asked for her digits. She gave me the home phone and I worked it from there.

S5: A former girlfriend: Saw her working as a waitress at a western restaurant. Ate there a few times and built-up a bit of rapport with her with some help from my friend. Eventually asked for contact details, built things up over phone, and then dated.

S6: Friend w/ benefits: An American guy who knows my taste well approached girl on MRT, chatted her up a bit and told her he has friend who would like her, got her number, and later gave it to me. I got to know her on phone and eventually dated her.

S7: Friend w/ benefits: Saw stewardess I liked on China Airlines flight to HK, asked for digits (happens to them all the time), and after some patient phone and text work, met her and a couple of her colleagues about 6 weeks later in Taipei. She had boyfriend but got me hooked up with one of her friends who I also liked from Mandarin Oriental Airlines.


R1: While getting my haircut, girl next to me is getting a wash and blow dry. I try to chat with her but she just glares at me with a look of despise. I believe she thought I was not qualified to talk with her.

R2: I get to know a girl in my office building since we subscribed to her company’s data service. She is friendly and warm to me. One day, I send her an email which is a bit social and mention it would be nice to be friends. She sends back a very blunt reply saying she sees me only as a customer, nothing more. It almost felt like she set me up intentionally for that.

R3: Meet girl at club, secure a number and later a date. Things look promising so I try to progress…too quickly. She gives me the ‘I don’t have that type of feeling for you’ rejection speech.

R4: Approach a girl and her friend outside my gym. Number close. Later on the phone, she claims they are a gay couple. Probably just a polite rejection.

R5: Get a number from a girl who works in McDonalds. But she is cold on the phone and does not want to talk to me.

R6: Talk to a couple of girls sitting down at Asiaworld food court. They chat with me but its forced and I soon realize they are baseball fans / groupies with no interest in getting to know me.

R7: See girl I like at outdoor pool I go to sometimes with my American friend. I ask an employee I know there about her and eventually find-out she noticed and was attracted to my friend (who is short and NOT attractive by American standards). Apparently I was invisible to her.

As you can see, there are many types of scenarios. If I see a girl I like who works in a coffee shop or other fixed location, I can go slowly, gauge here for friendliness and availability, talk to her first as a customer, gradually become a bit more familiar over a few visits, and if things go smoothly enough, ask her for contact details telling her I want to talk on the phone sometimes. If she has spare time for phone chatting, you can build comfort and feelings with her this way. Currently there’s a local movie playing in Taiwan – “Taipei Exchanges� which contains an example of a local guy becoming familiar with the owner of a small coffee shop over the course of several visits and eventually attracting her. Based on my experience, that part of the movie seemed very realistic.

If I see a girl in a place where I won’t see her again, it’s a now or never situation. Ideally, she’s alone and walking slowly or standing. I have to force myself to go up to her and initiate some sort of small talk – hi, I’m new around here, do you work in this area, blah blah blah or one of a many other openers. The words don’t matter much as long as they are neutral and friendly. My first goal is to engage her, to get her talking so she forgets for just a moment that I am a stranger from nowhere. Some will freeze up, others will be suspicious, but some will relax and open up a bit. Any of these cases can end-up failing or working out. If a girl is super shy, that of course is usually bad. But if she’s relaxed and super confident, that can be just as difficult.

Believe it or not, every person is different, even in Taiwan. One kind of rice feeds hundreds of types of people.

[Winston]

Rock,
Wow you must have a great memory to remember details about 14 of your pickups like that. That beats my memory even.

I have a question. When you say "friends with benefits" do you mean they give you casual sex, just like that, as easily as the stars on sitcoms make it look?

Do these girls you "make friends" with just jump in the sack with you after a few days? How can that be, when I have trouble getting them to even give me a hug? Even if they like me, they are still hesitant to hug me for some reason, like they are not used to it. Yet they give you casual sex and intimacy just like that?

How come they don't talk to you and give you the standard "no touching" vibe? Is it cause you're white and they just want to know what it's like to sleep with a white guy?

Also, check out these ads from Tealit.com below. Some of the girls sound very anti-sex and rant against it too. See their words below. Some are also anti-male and prefer female only. (some TW girls only talk to other females at parties, not to males) So how can this be? Why do they declare themselves as anti-sex, but around guys like you, they suddenly become pro-sex?

Here they are:

http://www.tealit.com/ad_categories.php ... anguage=en

(holy shit, her pic came up huge on here, so I removed it, too bad I can't control the size on here, see image at the URL above)

"I'm NOT looking for sexual partners, if You Do, please don't bother me.
Life for short, I do enjoy my life.
But if I change sex mate often, I don't think I can enjoy that.
When u enjoy the short fun, what do u get?
loney, empty or really feel happy when u alone?
I do really like to try anything new, and learn experience from anything.
All the experience all my life classes.

I'm kind, funny, optimistic, warm, honest. I'm 26. Just want to make friends. If u want to learn Mandairn, I can teach u if u really want to learn. Just feel free. I like swimming, reading, listening music, watching movies and outside activties. I love animals, kids and movies. I wish one day I could find my soulmate. But seems it's not easy to find. There are many people in this world, but not every one suit each other.....Well, God bless all of us.
If you are a funny person, let's make fun together, I'm also a funny girl, sometimes is crazy. I really like to think positive, and like to try new things. Life is so good, just depend on our mind. If u just want to look for some fun for sex or something like this, just leave me alone. I'm not interested in sex stuff. But I'm intersted in find my LOVE, and get married...ha ha
I also want to make some English Teachers to change experiences, because I'm a teacher aswell, but teach math and Chinese."

http://www.tealit.com/ad_categories.php ... anguage=en

(holy shit, her pic came up huge on here, so I removed it, too bad I can't control the size on here, see image at the URL above)

Hi~ I am silvia.i may go to AU this coming Oct.so I want to improve my English ability before i leave !I prefer to find English native speakers. (^-^)

The most important is I do not want to find "badmate" or do "sex activities". If you want to have sex with girls, I would not be your best choice. Please respect me, thanks.

Here is my msn: silvia-1118@hotmail.com
If you want to connect with me, please feel free to add my msn. As soon as you add my msn, please show me your photos to make me know who you are. Thanks again.
have a nice day ~

http://www.tealit.com/ad_categories.php ... anguage=en



hi, my name is adeline.i live in tp main station area.i am looking for some friends for LE..English, spanish..i prefer girls thanks!

[Winston]

Dear Rock,

Two questions that just came to mind.

First, I'm pretty sure that if you ask most Taiwanese couples around, they will tell you that they met at school, work or through cliques and introductions. They did not meet by cold approach in public or even in a nightclub. Same as the US. So, if most couples do not meet by cold approach, then isn't your successes with cold approaches the exception or anomaly in Taiwan, rather than the norm, logically speaking?

Second, you said that the average single Western guy can do better in Taiwan than in America. Yet, as Ladislav even said, the Taiwanese and Japanese consider America to be "open and expressive". Taiwanese even tell me that they see America as more open and friendly. How can that be? How can an average guy do worse in an "open friendly" country like America yet do better in TW, which considers America to be open and friendly? Isn't that perplexing?

Btw, when you say average single male, I think you mean a single male who is able to fit into TW culture to some degree, right? Not one that doesn't vibe with it or is repulsed by it right? You said that you knew expats who didn't like TW. Wouldn't their dislike hamper their success with TW women?

Sorry for so many questions in one day.

[Rock]

Rock,
Wow you must have a great memory to remember details about 14 of your pickups like that. That beats my memory even.

I have a question. When you say "friends with benefits" do you mean they give you casual sex, just like that, as easily as the stars on sitcoms make it look?

Do these girls you "make friends" with just jump in the sack with you after a few days? How can that be, when I have trouble getting them to even give me a hug? Even if they like me, they are still hesitant to hug me for some reason, like they are not used to it. Yet they give you casual sex and intimacy just like that?

How come they don't talk to you and give you the standard "no touching" vibe? Is it cause you're white and they just want to know what it's like to sleep with a white guy?

Also, check out these ads from Tealit.com below. Some of the girls sound very anti-sex and rant against it too. See their words below. Some are also anti-male and prefer female only. (some TW girls only talk to other females at parties, not to males) So how can this be? Why do they declare themselves as anti-sex, but around guys like you, they suddenly become pro-sex?

Here they are:

http://www.tealit.com/ad_categories.php ... anguage=en

(holy shit, her pic came up huge on here, so I removed it, too bad I can't control the size on here, see image at the URL above)

"I'm NOT looking for sexual partners, if You Do, please don't bother me.
Life for short, I do enjoy my life.
But if I change sex mate often, I don't think I can enjoy that.
When u enjoy the short fun, what do u get?
loney, empty or really feel happy when u alone?
I do really like to try anything new, and learn experience from anything.
All the experience all my life classes.

Hey Winston

I can remember the general circumstances of most of my more meaningful encounters with women here and elsewhere. I just have to think and reflect for awhile. Rejections are often easy to recall too. The successful ones were important to me and helped compensate for my very stressed work life.

Friends with benefits means going out and ending-up at my place or theirs for intimacy and sex on multiple occasions.

The time from first meeting to intimacy w/local girls varied but it was almost never immediate. 1 night stands are rare for me but I do know others who get them, usually from clubs. Generally, intimacy would happen anywhere from 2 weeks – 3 months after the number exchange and often involved a good amount of phone work.

The bad body language and no touching vibe you get means you are doing things wrong or they totally don’t dig you. I got a lot of this my first year until I started to better understand the girl's body language subtleties, verbal cues, and how to better read them. Improving language skills made me a lot more effective too. I find it easier to get close to a bilingual local in Mandarin than English. The way locals tend to speak English seems cold to me.

As for the girls who warn against players, you gotta wonder. Have they or their close friend already been played and hurt? And as I said before, some of them will behave differently than they profess. If they become very attracted to you, you will have a good chance with many of them.

Finally, I want to remind you, I believe Taiwan gets very challenging as you get older. Many girls will be creeped-out by someone who is too much older than they are. When there is a substantial age gap, you usually gotta go real slow if you want to have any chance at all. And even then, the failure rate will probably be quite high. The available hotties you see around tend to be in their late teens to late 20s. There are a some decent and available 30 somethings but they’re not so visible. So it’s a tough call as to whether or not you lie about your age.

[Winston]

Hi Rock,

Thanks for the explanations. Some more follow up questions:

You said it takes between 2 weeks and 3 months from when you "made friends" with a Taiwanese girl before she got intimate with you, and in between that time you had to do a lot of phone work too.

Damn. That sounds like a lot of work and patience just to get casual sex. I mean, you can fly to the Philippines and get casual sex on the same day. Why would anyone want to wait for weeks or month and have to call her everyday to get closer and bond with her to get casual sex?

I mean, I might do that if I wanted to marry someone for life. But not just for casual sex. Sounds like way too much work.

Besides, what if she just wants to be friends and nothing more? Does that never happen?

So am I to take it that in a cold, unfriendly, conservative, cliquish, puritannical (at least from the outside) country, that everyone can get laid except me? Isn't that like saying that in a desert, everyone can find water except me?

Now in regards to touching, you know that in Taiwanese culture, hugging and shaking hands is not the norm, especially between men and women. Russian culture is the same too.

So if a TW girl doesn't touch you, how do you know if it's due to the non-hugging culture or due to her disinterest in you?

What signs does a TW girl give you if she's interested?

Finally, when you see a hot TW girl walk by on the street, how can you meet her? If you say "Excuse me" or "Excuse me Shau Jie" or "Hi how are you" usually she will just ignore you and pass by. So what can you do? It's excruciating.

[Winston]

Rock,
My friend Shawn in Taipei, a white Canadian guy who's lived there for 10 years and has worked in banks and law firms, wrote this to my cell phone in response to my statement that it's not natural to meet TW girls in public:

"I think ur right about eye contact, I try to attend lots of social events or groups, that's better way to meet women. Twn women too shy n conservative to meet strangers on street. Maybe we can meet in taichung too."

So the obvious that I see is confirmed by others here too, right? Yet others like you claim that TW girls are open, friendly and approachable. Why the huge discrepancy?

[Winston]

I posted the links to this thread and my Taiwan observations article on craigslist in the Taiwan section and just got this response from an ABC in Taiwan. Notice the part I bolded.


"Hey there guy,

I'm a Taiwanese guy born in the U.S. I'm staying in Taiwan for an extended time to learn Chinese reading and writing. I was just bored and somehow came across your posting.

I have to say that the links you posted with discussions on Taiwanese "mannerisms" are pretty accurate although there are always some people that are exceptions to the "rule".

I've been trying to make some new friends here and its been quite the challenge, especially with the opposite sex. I think meeting people online here is probably the best thing if you can't meet people at work or through mutual friends. Have you ever met someone who was so talkative online but in person was extremely timid and shy? That is how a lot of these girls here are like. Its probably best to speak with them in online chat to get them to open up more instead of trying that in person because they most likely will not.

I haven't tried out the bar/club scene here so I'm not sure how it would go from that perspective, however, I think I'll be researching that part soon (LOL). Anyhow, good luck with meeting some Taiwanese girls. Good luck to ya.


Cheers,

George"

Obviously I'm not the only one who doesn't think that Taiwan is not open and wild...

[Rock]

Hi Rock,

Thanks for the explanations. Some more follow up questions:

You said it takes between 2 weeks and 3 months from when you "made friends" with a Taiwanese girl before she got intimate with you, and in between that time you had to do a lot of phone work too.

Damn. That sounds like a lot of work and patience just to get casual sex. I mean, you can fly to the Philippines and get casual sex on the same day. Why would anyone want to wait for weeks or month and have to call her everyday to get closer and bond with her to get casual sex?

I mean, I might do that if I wanted to marry someone for life. But not just for casual sex. Sounds like way too much work.

Besides, what if she just wants to be friends and nothing more? Does that never happen?

So am I to take it that in a cold, unfriendly, conservative, cliquish, puritannical (at least from the outside) country, that everyone can get laid except me? Isn't that like saying that in a desert, everyone can find water except me?

Now in regards to touching, you know that in Taiwanese culture, hugging and shaking hands is not the norm, especially between men and women. Russian culture is the same too.

So if a TW girl doesn't touch you, how do you know if it's due to the non-hugging culture or due to her disinterest in you?

What signs does a TW girl give you if she's interested?

Finally, when you see a hot TW girl walk by on the street, how can you meet her? If you say "Excuse me" or "Excuse me Shau Jie" or "Hi how are you" usually she will just ignore you and pass by. So what can you do? It's excruciating.

Well, it may sound like a lot of work to you. But I see it as patience and genuinely enjoy the process of getting to know the gal over the phone and on dates. It was a nice relief from my high pressure job. From initial interactions, I could usually figure out quickly whether or not it’s going anywhere. If she only wants to be friends, I can live with that if she’s interesting to talk to. But that didn’t happen very often. It seemed to gravitate towards all or nothing. Either we got closer or grew apart.

As for the Philippines, can I really fly over and get casual sex on the same day as you say with the type of girl I get in Taiwan (165cm+, attractive and reasonably educated from decent family, and most importantly non-pay for play)? Why would such a girl jump in the sack so quickly with me? I may be wrong but I bet if you eliminate pay-for-play, girls from impoverished backgrounds, and very short girls, it takes just as much work there as here.

You asked some questions. As for approaching girls and gauging interest, I’ve addressed that in some of my posts before. Understand that it complex because it involves and reading subtle cues and messages. So trial and error with the direction of a friend is perhaps the easiest way to build this sense. I remember having a cool English speaking female friend in Colombia observe my approaches there, advise me later, and sometimes even step in to assist. That helped enormously given my newness and weak language skills.

BTW, its not a big deal to shake hands here. I’ve done it a lot with females in business and with new friends. Hugging is awkward though unless you are already close to the girl. My girlfriend has no problem with me hugging her in public.

Winston, I must say, I believe you have closed your mind and projected your own experience into generalizations that are supposed to apply to most if not all guys here. My experiences and those of many I have observed run counter. Is my reality just a bubble? Perhaps. But if so, it has been a very big, long lasting, and enjoyable one so I don’t mind at all. I have been ‘Happier Abroad’ in Taiwan.