Why serial banging, and MGTOW is a bad idea.

[Adama]

...there are a few women out there who are naturally submissive and naturally seek to please their men, without the man forcing them. I call those women treasures. Feminists call them doormats. MGTOW say they don't and can't exist...

I call them damn near impossible find. (or more trouble than they're worth) Have you ever watched a good treasure hunting movie? If getting a woman is your top priority in life, feel free to go through all that effort to find this "treasure". I have way too many things I would rather be doing.

That's fine. Live your life the way you want. I am not here to dictate your life. Feel free to think and do as you please.

[The_Adventurer]

I don't know the ratios but
Some MGTOW are basically incels or borderline incels who use the ideology to make them take ownership of their fail. Other incels can acknowledge that the lack of women in their lives is not a choice on their part and retain the involuntary of incel.
Some MGTOW are older dudes are disgusted with women their age and use MGTOW to make up for the fact that they are too old to get someone they find attractive.
Some MGTOW are those who got a rough ride by women, usually via divorce and feel they were treated unfairly [which may or may not be true] and were do busted by the experience that they withdrew, sort of like herbivore men except less faggy.

To suggest that MGTOW has anything to do with feminism aside from dodgy use of facts and a dislike of a gender is just incorrect.

Some extreme forms of first world feminism do take on MGTOW type avoidance all men are evil ways, but most don't, and even the ones that do go far far beyond the MGTOW concerns.

Interesting that you mention, though in a derogatory way, herbivore men. Japan doesn't have feminism, certainly not in the western sense, and yet the Herbivore phenomenon is much larger than any MGTOW in the west. It seems to be largely the result of circumstance. It just "happened" little by little. Those who seem so against MGTOW seem to think it is entirely about choice. Of course, everything is when you boil it down, but that likes saying some guy is a p***y because he won't jump into this alligator pit.

So one must get a good education, choose one equally educated, plan the kids, discuss the cults, make all these compromises... since when was marriage so much hassle. I tend to think it was not like this in the previous generations. Of course divorce use to be a shame back then, now it is something to be celebrated. Marriage used to be a benefit to a man. I suspect it was to a woman too, though modern society would have us believe differently. Today it really is wholly unnecessary.

Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with adapting to the modern world, making compromises, or whatever, to be married if that is what one wants. As with Herbivore men, I don't think anyone should be surprised if more and more men simply don't want that, or see any benefit to it.

[cdnFA]

Interesting that you mention, though in a derogatory way, herbivore men. Japan doesn't have feminism, certainly not in the western sense, and yet the Herbivore phenomenon is much larger than any MGTOW in the west. It seems to be largely the result of circumstance. It just "happened" little by little. Those who seem so against MGTOW seem to think it is entirely about choice. Of course, everything is when you boil it down, but that likes saying some guy is a p***y because he won't jump into this alligator pit.

So one must get a good education, choose one equally educated, plan the kids, discuss the cults, make all these compromises... since when was marriage so much hassle. I tend to think it was not like this in the previous generations. Of course divorce use to be a shame back then, now it is something to be celebrated. Marriage used to be a benefit to a man. I suspect it was to a woman too, though modern society would have us believe differently. Today it really is wholly unnecessary.

Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with adapting to the modern world, making compromises, or whatever, to be married if that is what one wants. As with Herbivore men, I don't think anyone should be surprised if more and more men simply don't want that, or see any benefit to it.

I wasn't being derogatory, I was being descriptive.
"without being bound by manliness"
"weak and not masculine"
"concentrate on personal grooming"
I've read up on them before and they come across as faggy. Not all of them of course but still.

I would not call getting an education and finding someone educated to be a hassle myself, also I suspect it isn't the education that makes the difference so much as it being a marker for other traits. as for planing the kids, cults and finance, FFS getting into a life long commitment with someone without having those things in agreement is just marriage suicide, playing life on hard more. It is also a hassle to eat right, put on a seat belt and get exercise but it is still a good idea.
Divorce used to be a shame back then. Being stuck with a nagging hag of a wife or being used as a punching bag by hubby was so much better?

Marriage is still a benefit. However it isn't a benefit if you consider putting more effort in picking a wife than a car to be too much of a hassle. As far as I am concerned a healthy marriage is a prerequisite if you want to raise kids, if you don't have one, you should not be having the other. If you don't want kids, there is still value in life time commitment but I guess not if you [you general not you quoted poster] just want to knock up some chick and abandon her.

I think folks would be better off under these changed in mind set.
1: No kids unless you have a healthy functioning marriage. Not just the paper but one that works.
2: Take dating seriously. Dr Laura Shitslinger might of been two faced and a bit nutty but she did deliver nuggets of truth and one of them was, you can't marry who you don't date. In her context, smoking but it applies elsewhere. Most people meet someone start dating but don't care about long term because it is just dating. Then they fall in love and get married. However love is necessary but it isn't all that is needed. If you are dating someone, people should ask the important questions before things get too serious. Look up some of the lists for those getting arranged married. It seems it is more important that one shares similar tastes in music or movies than in fundamental life style issues that although unimportant at the start of a relationship because vital when things get serious. I knew a couple, girl wanted no kids, dude wanted 6. Someone is going to be very unhappy, it is just a time bomb ticking away.
3: If you find someone who is compatible, put in the effort to keep the marriage going strong. Be willing to compromise and sensible. However one should also accept the other person as is and not be a nag about it. Know when to apply which. But hey, hassle meh. Be willing to do that, and find someone willing to do that for you.

[The_Adventurer]

You're talking in very idealistic terms. Sure everything you say sounds great, and that is the way it is supposed to be, but I am just not seeing that out in the real world. At least, in a world where single motherhood is celebrated, and even an "easier" path, and divorce pays more than getting a job, what you describe, should it still exist is now the exception and not the rule. The sad reality is few people will ever find it.

[cdnFA]

You're talking in very idealistic terms. Sure everything you say sounds great, and that is the way it is supposed to be, but I am just not seeing that out in the real world. At least, in a world where single motherhood is celebrated, and even an "easier" path, and divorce pays more than getting a job, what you describe, should it still exist is now the exception and not the rule. The sad reality is few people will ever find it.

Few people even bother to try to find it. They follow a random path and hope it works out. It still does about half the time.

I wouldn't say single motherhood is celebrated, I mean I am sure there are some who in spite of the mass of studies that say the opposite claim that you don't need a man but I think most people outside of ivory towers and hollyweird know that single motherhood screws up kids and it is represented as being a pretty tough slog.
Ignoring those few single and ageing fools who decide to get knocked up without even having a guy, which in my mind is about as cunty as a 60 or 70 year old trying to be a father BTW, and those who just want to get on the dole and really who wants anything to do with that human garbage, I don't think there are many women who want to be single mothers. At best and this is a comment I hear in the this context the most is that it is better to split up than expose kids to a toxic marriage.
I am pretty dammed sure that single motherhood isn't something women enter into lightly. Either she is profoundly unhappy or the guy is being a huge jerk for the woman to be the one to pull the plug.

I hate to sound like Adama in this regard, and it is pretty funny because we view the world in very different lenses, but I also believe there is quality and far beyond that 1% thing. It is just a matter of looking for it. Also if you are datable to any extent, it doesn't take that much more effort to find someone who is compatible than someone who isn't. Getting hitched and even worse, breeding with the first chick that will have your ass is a huge mistake. It is also a huge mistake overseas, a common refrain from many youtube Philippine expat vbloggers. Many will point out that you need to take your time and it takes time to filter out the good from the bad.

Surely regardless of where you stand on the issue of how possible it is to find a compatible woman, you must agree that if you can't find one, it is better to forgo marriage and children. But hey, your life, best of luck.

[The_Adventurer]

Surely regardless of where you stand on the issue of how possible it is to find a compatible woman, you must agree that if you can't find one, it is better to forgo marriage and children.

I agree, but isn't that exactly what those MGTOW and Herbivore men are doing?

[cdnFA]

Surely regardless of where you stand on the issue of how possible it is to find a compatible woman, you must agree that if you can't find one, it is better to forgo marriage and children.

I agree, but isn't that exactly what those MGTOW and Herbivore men are doing?

There is a difference between looking for the right woman and being willing to wait than settle and assuming that it is either impossible to find the right woman or that it is possible but is just too much trouble. MGTOW seem mostly of the all woman are not worth it school. Herbs seem split between the, I don't have the income therefore it is impossible and the I could find one but it would be too bothersome to try. Actually a lot of women fall in the too bothersome school also, some men and women even consider sex too bothersome.

[The_Adventurer]

Surely regardless of where you stand on the issue of how possible it is to find a compatible woman, you must agree that if you can't find one, it is better to forgo marriage and children.

I agree, but isn't that exactly what those MGTOW and Herbivore men are doing?

There is a difference between looking for the right woman and being willing to wait than settle and assuming that it is either impossible to find the right woman or that it is possible but is just too much trouble. MGTOW seem mostly of the all woman are not worth it school. Herbs seem split between the, I don't have the income therefore it is impossible and the I could find one but it would be too bothersome to try. Actually a lot of women fall in the too bothersome school also, some men and women even consider sex too bothersome.

That is exactly the case in Japan, and it is nearly half of all young people of marriageable age. That should make it clear that there are more forces at work here than just some basement dwelling "loser" men who have arbitrarily decided to give up on pursuing women.

I knew a guy once who spent 12 years shopping around his screenplay to the studios. Doing pitch meeting after pitch meeting and spending lots of money to get it seen. In the end, nothing ever happened, and after all the time, money and effort he spent he could have produced the thing himself independently. If he had proceeded into the 13th year, might he have gotten a sale? How about the 14th year? There comes a point when one has to realise the world has changed, and is changing, and things don't work the same as they used to. It's not the fault of the men. It's not the fault of the women. It is just a new world.

[cdnFA]

That is exactly the case in Japan, and it is nearly half of all young people of marriageable age. That should make it clear that there are more forces at work here than just some basement dwelling "loser" men who have arbitrarily decided to give up on pursuing women.

I knew a guy once who spent 12 years shopping around his screenplay to the studios. Doing pitch meeting after pitch meeting and spending lots of money to get it seen. In the end, nothing ever happened, and after all the time, money and effort he spent he could have produced the thing himself independently. If he had proceeded into the 13th year, might he have gotten a sale? How about the 14th year? There comes a point when one has to realise the world has changed, and is changing, and things don't work the same as they used to. It's not the fault of the men. It's not the fault of the women. It is just a new world.

When you combine those who can't get a woman because they don't have the 5 or 6M yen a year or something else to compensate, and things like social skills are lacking in Japan.
Those who could get a woman but just can't be bothered to send out 50 text message to grovel for the privilege of buying some random chick a meal to quote the rule of 7 guy, plus all the other bullshit involved in a relationship. Never mind shelling out money and never knowing if you are going to get anything out of it. Unless you are super desirable, relationships take effort and money. You gotta throw a burger down her throat, listen to her as if you cared etc to quote Andrew Dice Clay.
Plus the raw deal of being a salary man and turning everything over to a wife you never see and almost never get affection from and after the kids show up sex an to take care of kids you never see while spending 12+ hours a day working, in transit or other work related functions, it seems kind of pointless unless you can negotiate a different sort of deal and that is something else the Japanese are not very good at. It also must be vexing to work like a dog on a short allowance to keep your wife in brand name bags and English lessons. The nail that sticks out getting hammered and all that. It seems with women some don't want to get married because it means the death of a career and an independent life, and the others are so desperate to escape a screwed up work culture that they will marry anyone with a penis who can get them knocked up.