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Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Winston
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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Winston » June 12th, 2019, 10:24 am

Reza Aslan, author of "Zealot", explains here why the historical Jesus was most likely illiterate. That explains why he never wrote anything down. My friend Alex, on the other hand, thinks Jesus never wrote anything because he didn't want his writings to be canonized or worshipped or made infallible.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Winston » June 12th, 2019, 5:42 pm

Check out this book by one of the world's top secular Bible scholars, Dr. Bart Ehrman. He's written so many books and been in many debates about the Bible. It's called "How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee". It explains how Jesus started as a man, then became a demigod, then finally God in the Gospel of John. It's very obvious when reading the four canonized gospels that the first three - Matthew, Mark and Luke - do not depict Jesus as God at all. Only the Gospel of John does, which came decades later when the doctrine of Jesus' divinity became canonized. This is very obvious to anyone who examines the four gospels, and logically means that the doctrine of Jesus being God was created and evolved over time, by Christians and their churches and leaders. So it was not a fixed doctrine from Jesus himself. Ehrman's logic and analysis on this are superb and first rate and expert.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Jesus-Became ... 061778184/

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New York Times bestselling author and Bible expert Bart Ehrman reveals how Jesus’s divinity became dogma in the first few centuries of the early church.

The claim at the heart of the Christian faith is that Jesus of Nazareth was, and is, God. But this is not what the original disciples believed during Jesus’s lifetime—and it is not what Jesus claimed about himself. How Jesus Became God tells the story of an idea that shaped Christianity, and of the evolution of a belief that looked very different in the fourth century than it did in the first.

A master explainer of Christian history, texts, and traditions, Ehrman reveals how an apocalyptic prophet from the backwaters of rural Galilee crucified for crimes against the state came to be thought of as equal with the one God Almighty, Creator of all things. But how did he move from being a Jewish prophet to being God? In a book that took eight years to research and write, Ehrman sketches Jesus’s transformation from a human prophet to the Son of God exalted to divine status at his resurrection. Only when some of Jesus’s followers had visions of him after his death—alive again—did anyone come to think that he, the prophet from Galilee, had become God. And what they meant by that was not at all what people mean today.

Written for secular historians of religion and believers alike, How Jesus Became God will engage anyone interested in the historical developments that led to the affirmation at the heart of Christianity: Jesus was, and is, God.
If anyone is interested, a team of Christian apologist authors and scholars have put together a book to counter and rebut Bart Ehrman's above, called "How God Became Jesus: The Real Origins of Belief in Jesus' Divine Nature---A Response to Bart Ehrman". It is a point by point refutation of Ehrman's book, and explains why the church did not invent Jesus' divinity and status as God. Here it is below if you want to read their side and rebuttal. It's always smart to study an issue from both sides after all, so you see the bigger picture and get better informed.

https://www.amazon.com/How-God-Became-J ... 00I2P2OVS/

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In his recent book How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher From Galilee historian Bart Ehrman explores a claim that resides at the heart of the Christian faith— that Jesus of Nazareth was, and is, God. According to Ehrman, though, this is not what the earliest disciples believed, nor what Jesus claimed about himself.

The first response book to this latest challenge to Christianity from Ehrman, How God Became Jesus features the work of five internationally recognized biblical scholars. While subjecting his claims to critical scrutiny, they offer a better, historically informed account of why the Galilean preacher from Nazareth came to be hailed as “the Lord Jesus Christ.” Namely, they contend, the exalted place of Jesus in belief and worship is clearly evident in the earliest Christian sources, shortly following his death, and was not simply the invention of the church centuries later.
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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Winston » June 12th, 2019, 5:57 pm

Another Christian book rebutting Bart Ehrman, if anyone's interested.

https://www.amazon.com/Rebuttal-Bart-Eh ... 00FPMJN7O/
A Rebuttal To Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus

Rebuttal To Bart Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus is an academic paper written in 2009. The purpose of this paper is to provide a historical context for the topic of New Testament manuscript history, and to respond to Ehrman’s attack on Scripture. Although Ehrman mounts a number of specific attacks, including authorship of the various gospels and epistles, and the alleged rocky road of canonization, the primary focus of this paper is to respond specifically to the questions Ehrman raises regarding the reliability of Scripture subsequent to the initial transmissions of the Apostolic letters. In reviewing the material available for sale regarding this subject, the author opines that the selection is either too elementary, or consists of books the average reader might find daunting. This forty-plus page paper, with over 170 footnotes, is an excellent introduction to the subject and offers cogent criticisms of Ehrman’s analysis of this very important topic.
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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » June 13th, 2019, 8:47 pm

Hey @Neo....


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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » June 13th, 2019, 9:10 pm

Contrarian Expatriate wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 8:47 pm
Hey @Neo....

Do you wish to do to me the same thing that feminists and SJWs do to American men who seek wives abroad?

As for me, I have no personal animosity towards you. I don't hate you, and I have no desire to insult you or make you angry or argue with you or any of that nonsense. What is your goal?
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » June 13th, 2019, 9:29 pm

Neo wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 9:10 pm
Do you wish to do to me the same thing that feminists and SJWs do to American men who seek wives abroad?
I am not seeking a wife. I am MGTOW.
Neo wrote: As for me, I have no personal animosity towards you. I don't hate you, and I have no desire to insult you or make you angry or argue with you or any of that nonsense. What is your goal?
I am actually quite fond of you and your contributions on this site. I have no personal animus towards you either. I am contrarian by nature. But if I had a goal, I would want you (and everybody for that matter) to expand your thinking and worldview beyond that which religious faith requires.

You are too intelligent to relegate your thinking to a mental box and to have some "holy" book do the thinking for you. Organized religions manipulate and control people so they are fearful of getting out of line. I see that fear instilled in you when you say, "But what if it's true?"

We are all more powerful, capable and intelligent than faiths such as Christianity want people to be!

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » June 13th, 2019, 9:33 pm

Contrarian Expatriate wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 9:29 pm
Neo wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 9:10 pm
Do you wish to do to me the same thing that feminists and SJWs do to American men who seek wives abroad?

As for me, I have no personal animosity towards you. I don't hate you, and I have no desire to insult you or make you angry or argue with you or any of that nonsense. What is your goal?
I am actually quite fond of you and your contributions on this site. I have no personal animus towards you either. I am contrarian by nature. But if I had a goal, I would want you (and everybody for that matter) to expand your thinking and worldview beyond that that religious faith requires.

You are too intelligent to relegate your thinking to a mental box and to have some "holy" book do the thinking for you. Organized religions manipulate and control people so they are fearful of getting out of line. I see that fear instilled in you when you say, "But what if it's true?"

We are all more powerful, capable and intelligent than faiths such as Christianity want people to be!
My entire bet is on Christ. There is no other way for me. It's only after we've believed that God reveals things to us.

Just like some men are MGTOW and some are not, some are Christian and some are not. To each his own, live and let live.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » June 13th, 2019, 9:37 pm

Winston wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 10:24 am
Reza Aslan, author of "Zealot", explains here why the historical Jesus was most likely illiterate. That explains why he never wrote anything down. My friend Alex, on the other hand, thinks Jesus never wrote anything because he didn't want his writings to be canonized or worshipped or made infallible.

Maybe His job wasn't to write things down. He had a higher mission, such as keeping all the commandments to overcome the law which only the Son of God can do, to preach salvation, and to die for the sins of the whole world. The other prophets can then write the gospel under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, the part of God that is subjected to Christ.

It is likely that Christ was fluent in Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew. In actuality though, there's nothing that He did not know. He knew and knows everything from before the beginning, and the human tongue was created by Him, and therefore languages did not escape his knowledge.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » June 13th, 2019, 9:47 pm

Neo wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 9:33 pm
My entire bet is on Christ. There is no other way for me.
I think it was Margaret Thatcher who said, "Certainty is but refuge for the second rate." With that in mind, reexamine your certainty about Christianity.
Neo wrote: Just like some men are MGTOW and some are not, some are Christian and some are not.
Please do not compare MGTOW and Christianity, EVER. MGTOW is about unleashing the highest potential, freedom, and well being of men through effort, reason, and freedom from female and state passive control.

Christianity is about placing limitations on thought, action, desire, and intellect. Because so many men are brainwashed by Christian orthodoxy in the West, MGTOW came into being.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Yohan » June 20th, 2019, 12:04 pm

Contrarian Expatriate wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 9:47 pm
Christianity is about placing limitations on thought, action, desire, and intellect. Because so many men are brainwashed by Christian orthodoxy in the West, MGTOW came into being.
Cannot say it better. Christianity is - like any religion - about controlling people, brainwashing them.

I left Catholic Church many years ago. 50 years or so, this church is truly bad. Very abusive. However other religions are not really better.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by MrPeabody » June 20th, 2019, 7:39 pm

I recommend the book "Who Wrote the New Testament" by Burton L. Mack. He explains the Roman-Greek world in the 3rd century when the scriptures were being written and how Christianity was a social project to reengineer society. After reading the book, it really makes sense how Christianity arose. The beliefs themselves are not that important. Nor is Jesus, who may or may not have existed. Mack argues that Jesus may have been a Cynic philosopher, which were well known at that time. Mack is a full professor of theology at Claremont School of Theology. It's interesting that the theology schools are now openly teaching the mythology of Christianity, but they don't tell the people about it.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » June 20th, 2019, 8:15 pm

MrPeabody wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 7:39 pm
I recommend the book "Who Wrote the New Testament" by Burton L. Mack. He explains the Roman-Greek world in the 3rd century when the scriptures were being written and how Christianity was a social project to reengineer society. After reading the book, it really makes sense how Christianity arose. The beliefs themselves are not that important. Nor is Jesus, who may or may not have existed. Mack argues that Jesus may have been a Cynic philosopher, which were well known at that time. Mack is a full professor of theology at Claremont School of Theology. It's interesting that the theology schools are now openly teaching the mythology of Christianity, but they don't tell the people about it.
@Neo after reading this.....

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » June 20th, 2019, 8:43 pm

A person will believe whatsoever he or she chooses to believe.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » June 20th, 2019, 9:35 pm

Neo wrote:
June 20th, 2019, 8:43 pm
A person will believe whatsoever he or she chooses to believe.
And that is precisely the problem. People should believe that for which there is evidence and substantiation, not social conditioning and brainwashing. If what you say is true, go ahead and just believe in the Chupacabra, Bigfoot, and the Abominable Snowman too.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by MrPeabody » June 20th, 2019, 10:08 pm

Here is an example of how the New Testament uses cynic philosophy.

When asked why he ate with tax collectors and sinners, Jesus replied, “Those who are well have no need of a physician.” (Mark 2:17)

Below is a similar quote from Antisthenes hundreds of years earlier, who was a student of Socrates:

When censured for keeping bad company, Antisthenes replied, “Well, physicians attend their patients without catching the fever.”

The book lists several dozens of these parallels.

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