International woman -> later, an American citizen

[S_Parc]

Fellows, here's a scenario ... if you date women abroad & eventually marry someone from let's say Brazil, Taiwan, or Czech Republic, at some point in time, she'll be living with you in the US (still, the best job market for educated internationals) and become an American citizen.

Aren't you a little concerned that she'll be brainwashed by the likes of her new found friends who're like the 'Sex & the City', 'Desperate Housewives', Alanis Morrisette, and other stateside skanks?

[Asia Outback]

You have not experienced that yet, but your concerns are very well placed. It touches on a lot of assumptions as to the scope of the real problem. It is one reason I have chosen to make my home overseas. Back in the USA...soon they all drink from the same well.
Why take the risk? the reasons to not be in the USA go far beyond just that, but it is a pretty good place to start in terms of consideration.

Jake

[S_Parc]

I have chosen to make my home overseas

Doesn't this then bring up the subsequent issue... the issue of one's spouse's career and the identity of one's children?

If your spouse is a pharmacist or nurse, she could easily double her salary by simply working in the US vs any other country out there. That money could then be used for retirement or supporting one's aging parents.

And then in the case of the children, are they really 'American' or someone with some American ancestry? Fine, you can give an American passport to any offspring of yours, I understand that, but is that enough if they didn't spend some part of their childhood in their dad's homeland?

I'm not trying to be a pain in the neck here, I just want to help in bringing these issues to light.

[Asia Outback]

hi there-

No you are not being a pain in the neck- those are legitimate issues. First, I am not trying to raise children with a full set of American
pathological dysfunctions. Are you assuming that kids are better raised in the USA? I would beg to differ. My children have dual national identities and they are fine with it. They do spend time in the USA, but mostly in Asia.

I would not make income my primary consideration, but it is on the list. My standard of living would take a hit moving back to the USA.
We enjoy a full time live-in housekeeper, a gardener, and and number of other part time assistants when needed. We live in a decent house by even American standards and we have no mortgage. My kids enjoy a well educated tutor who comes in three afternoons a week.
I have been able to maintain our family income at American standards, and out living costs are about 25% of what the same life would cost in the USA. Exactly how would moving back to the USA improve things for me?

Yes, there are some trade-offs in the whole deal, but it does not seem like we are getting the short end of the stick by being right where we are. We do have some modest assets in the USA and being as our living costs are so small in general, we are able to add to those assets every year. At this time, we are able to save/invest about 35% of our income. Do you know anyone in the USA able to live as I describe above on what would be a American middle class level income?

I am sure there are others doing a better job of it all than I am, but it's not too shabby as it is.

Jake

[djfourmoney]

Fellows, here's a scenario ... if you date women abroad & eventually marry someone from let's say Brazil, Taiwan, or Czech Republic, at some point in time, she'll be living with you in the US (still, the best job market for educated internationals) and become an American citizen.

Aren't you a little concerned that she'll be brainwashed by the likes of her new found friends who're like the 'Sex & the City', 'Desperate Housewives', Alanis Morrisette, and other stateside skanks?

No, because its YOUR FAULT if you found somebody that's easily swayed by popular culture and its trappings.

Most of the foreign women I have been involved which thing American Women are generally nutty, they don't buy into drivel. They have the set of values they were born and bred with in their home country, they won't change as easily.

The view of most men in America looking at Foreign Women seem to believe the source is better than the tainted product. In some cases this is true, mostly the very ambitious women will often use any means available to them to get what they want. Is this the kind of woman you want for a wive? Unlikely, these are the types of women most of these men run into it state-side, especially those divorced from American men and there's no evidence of abuse.

So basically, no I'm not concerned because no woman I would be involved with would come to the US without any grave reservations. But if she understood our best job/career prospects are here, along with the type of lifestyle you want to live is here, then that's where we'll live. But I am not locked on living here, neither should she.

[djfourmoney]

hi there-

No you are not being a pain in the neck- those are legitimate issues. First, I am not trying to raise children with a full set of American
pathological dysfunctions. Are you assuming that kids are better raised in the USA? I would beg to differ. My children have dual national identities and they are fine with it. They do spend time in the USA, but mostly in Asia.

I would not make income my primary consideration, but it is on the list. My standard of living would take a hit moving back to the USA.
We enjoy a full time live-in housekeeper, a gardener, and and number of other part time assistants when needed. We live in a decent house by even American standards and we have no mortgage. My kids enjoy a well educated tutor who comes in three afternoons a week.
I have been able to maintain our family income at American standards, and out living costs are about 25% of what the same life would cost in the USA. Exactly how would moving back to the USA improve things for me?

Yes, there are some trade-offs in the whole deal, but it does not seem like we are getting the short end of the stick by being right where we are. We do have some modest assets in the USA and being as our living costs are so small in general, we are able to add to those assets every year. At this time, we are able to save/invest about 35% of our income. Do you know anyone in the USA able to live as I describe above on what would be a American middle class level income?

I am sure there are others doing a better job of it all than I am, but it's not too shabby as it is.

Jake

Some could if they would look at the choices they make, but often times only crisis forces people to look for alternatives.

But let's be honest, you can have a housekeeper because of the reduced wages of where you live. You would need to pay at least min wage here which would cost you in California about $18K a year. I'm sure you spend about half that if not less on your housekeeper.

So could you enjoy the same standard of living back in the States, no, but your standard of living by local standards is much higher than by typical Western standards, you still have to put that in perspective. Many "so-called' rich don't have housekeepers, one CNBC once there was a documentary that focused on just how some people are thought to be rich by how many zeros they have in their account, but the "Real" rich have pushed the bar up so high that even when you have 7 digit windfall, it doesn't compared to those earning that much in 6 months.

[ladislav]

1) It all depends on the upbringing. And how American they themselves want to become. There are would be Americans in all parts of the world and these become Americanized. Many Filipinas and even Japanese are like that. But also, many are not. So, you can gauge by how she acts and how predisposed she may be. You can usually tell. Some imitate Hollywood movies, chew gum excessively, talk with a slur in the "yeah, man" type fashion. Mostly, these are poor people who see America as a way to opportunity and equality and they will get that when they get to the US. So, with blue collar type people, this is very common. But again, not with all.
Foreign intellectual women who grew up on literature and movies of their countries or who are religious and who follow their culture and will go to the US because you are there, not go with you because the US is there are not susceptible to turning into the sh*t that we are afraid they will turn into.
If you think a religious educated virgin Filipina will leave you in the US after you married her in church, you will be in for a harsh awakening. You try and divorce her and watch a Shakespearian tragedy unfold! It is much more likely that it will be you that will want to break free first.
2) If your kids are bilingual and bicultural or multi-lingual/cultural in today's multipolar world, it is more an advantage than if they are brought up to be red blooded Americans-monolingual, angrily insular and nationalistic, or on the other extreme, sissified guilt ridden whoevers. They will have so many more choices than an average all American boy or gal.
I remember once I was working for this company in the conservative part of Orange County with some real ex military "patriots". They would razz me about speaking foreign languages and not acting American. Not acting white. They wanted me to go to a baseball game with them. Then, they brought their baseball cap wearing friends to let them have a look at me, the weirdo, who was talking Japanese and Thai. I felt insulted.

Then, after I quit that miserable place, I said to myself- sh*t! I am a multilingual and multicultural person and I have so many choices! Just get online and look for another contract in Kuwait or even a job in Manila. I got offered some even there. And I am like a fish in water in so many cultures! So much of this planet is my oyster. I said to myself- I can go to S America now and sit and discuss politics in Spanish or go to Quebec and feel at home there. These hoodlums cannot. The age of narrow nationalism is going going gone! Aspiring to make your kids good Americans is so much passe!

Plus, say your kids are fluent in Mandarin and English. Is it bad? And they feel at home in both countries. And they can get all these international jobs and enjoy so much the world can offer.

3) America is good for the very very rich and the very very poor. If you are a middle class person, especially a man, you are f*cked, and you realize it ever more keenly when you come back from a place where you had a high status and servants and people chauffered you around and guards opened the door for you, and you maintained an array of glamorous girlfriends old enough to be your daughters and now you are a piece of sh*t and all you have to rejoice at is being an American?
This is not 1950ies anymore!

[Asia Outback]

hi there-

No you are not being a pain in the neck- those are legitimate issues. First, I am not trying to raise children with a full set of American
pathological dysfunctions. Are you assuming that kids are better raised in the USA? I would beg to differ. My children have dual national identities and they are fine with it. They do spend time in the USA, but mostly in Asia.

I would not make income my primary consideration, but it is on the list. My standard of living would take a hit moving back to the USA.
We enjoy a full time live-in housekeeper, a gardener, and and number of other part time assistants when needed. We live in a decent house by even American standards and we have no mortgage. My kids enjoy a well educated tutor who comes in three afternoons a week.
I have been able to maintain our family income at American standards, and out living costs are about 25% of what the same life would cost in the USA. Exactly how would moving back to the USA improve things for me?

Yes, there are some trade-offs in the whole deal, but it does not seem like we are getting the short end of the stick by being right where we are. We do have some modest assets in the USA and being as our living costs are so small in general, we are able to add to those assets every year. At this time, we are able to save/invest about 35% of our income. Do you know anyone in the USA able to live as I describe above on what would be a American middle class level income?

I am sure there are others doing a better job of it all than I am, but it's not too shabby as it is.

Jake

Some could if they would look at the choices they make, but often times only crisis forces people to look for alternatives.

But let's be honest, you can have a housekeeper because of the reduced wages of where you live. You would need to pay at least min wage here which would cost you in California about $18K a year. I'm sure you spend about half that if not less on your housekeeper.

So could you enjoy the same standard of living back in the States, no, but your standard of living by local standards is much higher than by typical Western standards, you still have to put that in perspective. Many "so-called' rich don't have housekeepers, one CNBC once there was a documentary that focused on just how some people are thought to be rich by how many zeros they have in their account, but the "Real" rich have pushed the bar up so high that even when you have 7 digit windfall, it doesn't compared to those earning that much in 6 months.

"Lets be honest"..what, I'm somehow being dishonest? Huh? Of course I enjoy all those things because they are MUCH CHEAPER! What's wrong with that? So in some ways I am living the life of a rich person on a budget. What's wrong with that?
I think that was the entire point I was making- not some relative abstract theory, but i practical terms, with what would be only middle class income in the USA, I live a very good life overseas. So I don't pay as much for stuff? That is my point, not some secret I carry in shame. See Ladislav's post...yes..."what he said." LOL

That is the very point- if you can make first world income in the developing world, you might be much better off, luxuries and money to save/invest, while back in the USA, every penny almost would go to just paying the bills in the rat race.

It works for me, might not work for others, or at least I hope not. As Ladislav once pointed out, we dont want Mindanao to be overrun with expats...

Jake

[djfourmoney]

I don't know Lav, maybe I see Rich People having their own set of problems. Being poor you're vilified by politicians and victims of law enforcement, but beyond that little is expected of you. Also being poor does not give you a leg up, unless you know how to use your opportunity. Many don't know what to do, all they know is the hustle, crime, etc.

I could make a near min wage in America lifestyle work, cause I've done it. One min wage earning is pitiful, two is better, three again is a struggle, so to have children I say both need to expand your income earning by half or double it to make having children work.

Anyway, my point is I agree that its not the 1950's anymore and globalism has its place. Being an American is no better than being from some place else, everywhere has its advantages and disadvantages.

[S_Parc]

Hey fellows, I'm from the Boston area and let me tell you, everywhere I've gone in Asia or South America, my hometown is seen as some shining Yankee paradise with intense winters. I think it's a bit rose-colored but a tinge of it is true.

From my p.o.v., I still have a lot of friends and acquaintances in the New England states, some of them (<15%) are even married to east Asians and Brazilians. So although I don't subscribe to the rose-colored view of New England as some perfect Norman Rockwell-ian vision, I do think that the various locales are reasonably nice and a lot less plastic than let's say the Southwest, Southern Cali, and Miami/South Florida. And in Boston, one can be quasi multi-lingual (America's main French institute/library is here) & America's 2nd largest Armenian diaspora as well... as long as you like the Sox or Celtics, and thus dislike the NY Yankees or LA Lakers, you're a good guy in many persons' eyes.

Ok, now with the bad stuff... winters suck, housing costs are outrageous, drivers are criminal, and the politics are very pro-union and corrupt. Yet, all and all, I like this place minus the women. The best women in the region are normally transients from other states and countries. The men are more like Matt Damon, in character, than let's say Owen Wilson. Really, it's the women who take the region down with their fake spirituality and ideas of intellectual superiority bolstered by the seven sister college types.

Now, if I let's say decide to live overseas, from my perspective, I'd feel a little strange telling my kids the above vignettes but then, not raising 'em anywhere near it. I mean if they wholeheartedly reject American culture or let's say some New England subculture (some proto-Emerson/Thoreau/Kennedy-esque wannabe region), then shouldn't it be their choice and not something generated by our bad experiences with the 'Ally McBeal' idiots in town?

[Contrarian Expatriate]

If you date women abroad & eventually marry someone from let's say Brazil, Taiwan, or Czech Republic, at some point in time, she'll be living with you in the US and become an American citizen.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this premise, although I do understand that most assume this is the eventual result. SMART men live in their countries and do not facilitate their travel to the US. The children, of course, will be US citizens if you register the births at the US Consulate.

Simply do not bring them here and you will be alright.

[ladislav]

I don't know Lav, maybe I see Rich People having their own set of problems. Being poor you're vilified by politicians and victims of law enforcement, but beyond that little is expected of you. Also being poor does not give you a leg up, unless you know how to use your opportunity. Many don't know what to do, all they know is the hustle, crime, etc.

I could make a near min wage in America lifestyle work, cause I've done it. One min wage earning is pitiful, two is better, three again is a struggle, so to have children I say both need to expand your income earning by half or double it to make having children work.

Anyway, my point is I agree that its not the 1950's anymore and globalism has its place. Being an American is no better than being from some place else, everywhere has its advantages and disadvantages.

I should have qualified. America is good for the third world poor who live on a dollar a day. These do benefit from coming to it. Cambodian taxi drivers, Thai cooks, a Nicaraguan peasant boy; people who are not even zero, they are below zero. Upon arriving in the US, if they have a legal visa, they can get student loans, grants, welfare, food stamps, free libraries, SBA financial help to start restaurants, they can get credit cards, buy property and prosper. Free medical care for the very very poor as well. Then, they can send $500 dollars back home and feed enormous families for that kind of money. If you are at that point in life in your country you have less of chance than a snowflake on the surface of the sun to ever make it in life. Someone who is a laundry girl making $2 a day can rise to become an officer at West Point. That is America for the poor of the world. And then after you have been there for 5 years ( 3 if you are married to a citizen) and I think it is less than one if you are in the military, you can get citizenship very easily. And even if you are not a citizen you can serve in the military or become a public employee with a fat pension. If you are a non white person, you have strong organizations that will help you get established.
In many countries, people cannot get citizenship after three generation in the country where they were born. So those people love America! And can you blame them?
Now if you are a middle class person from a country that fell on hard times politically and you had enjoyed some modicum of status there, your status will become nothing in the US particularly if you are from a non English speaking country. It will be a hard climb up taking years of not decades for you to regain any semblance of what you used to be. And if you are a white male, no one will help you.
And the very very rich enjoy the great customer service, conveniences and the infrastructure that is superb. The police that do not ask for bribes, streets with no potholes, officials that are not snobs and banks that are ensured.
That is what I was mainly referring to.

[Asia Outback]

If you date women abroad & eventually marry someone from let's say Brazil, Taiwan, or Czech Republic, at some point in time, she'll be living with you in the US and become an American citizen.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this premise, although I do understand that most assume this is the eventual result. SMART men live in their countries and do not facilitate their travel to the US. The children, of course, will be US citizens if you register the births at the US Consulate.

Simply do not bring them here and you will be alright.

Why make it simple when you could make it really complicated? LOL Most are not looking at the larger picture as you are, and most by far do not have your overseas experience. Life seems to be ok, except they are short exactly one woman last time they counted.
Once that problem is solved, life will once again be ok in America. Gotta find a woman, any country will do. It is a systemic problem that goes far beyond the simple lack of desirable women, and most men do not recognize the degree to which they are part of the problem.

Good luck-

Jake

[onezero4u]

dont be naive, your wife WILL be influenced by US culture.

the tv shows, news and commercials will bombard her on a daily to be a slut and demanding cunt.

neighbors and coworkers will fill her in on all the benefits of femenism, divorce and alimony.

do NOT bring a foreign chick back to the US or she will be corrupted fast@@!!!!!

[Asia Outback]

dont be naive, your wife WILL be influenced by US culture.

the tv shows, news and commercials will bombard her on a daily to be a slut and demanding cunt.

neighbors and coworkers will fill her in on all the benefits of femenism, divorce and alimony.

do NOT bring a foreign chick back to the US or she will be corrupted fast@@!!!!!

If I had to place a bet, the safe bet would be exactly as you say. The corrupting influences are complex and pervasive.
Of course, for many men, moving overseas does not seem like and option, but if one changes their perspective, in time it is possible to do just that. The thought of raising my daughter in the USA is very unappealing to me. Its hard to change outcomes when the whole village drinks from the same well.


Jake