Glad you revived this topic. I find the debate very interesting and would seriously consider making Thailand my Asian base if I were single.
But I’ve written many things in my last post which you didn’t address at all. Since you are firm in your views and have such an outstanding top-down perspective (global view), I wish you would comment comprehensively. The questions I posed and issues and examples I raised are all relevant to the the OP.
I will address your specific points below.
ladislav wrote:I see your point Rock, and I do not know all the answers, truthfully. But I again go back to the title of the article- Thailand as paradise for white men. I do not think so. If other guys are happy and you know other people who are then by all means share it ( and you have) and maybe you can invite them to post here. All people's experiences are different and the world view is different. We had one black American guy here who has claimed that he has never experienced racism in America. Now, how should I react to that? I can only say congratulations and good for him! Other people may have had a different experience in the US.
I wish other white guys with Thai experience, especially long term expats with local language skills would post here. But Thailand has several dedicated forums (some with 10s of thousands of members) where I think the brunt of posters who fit that criteria hang. Anyway, I have introduced a few expats in Thailand to this forum. But so far, no traction. They probably figure it’s more relevant to Asian dudes or guys still stuck in western countries. Winston’s forum still has a relatively small poster base.
As for a young black American not experiencing serious racism up to young adulthood in the US, I don’t find that impossible. I could give you a plausible scenario and I already have one in mind.
ladislav wrote:
There is also xenophobia in the Philippines ( about 5% of what you get in Thailand) and people talk bad about Americans, but not about whites or Westerners. You never hear a Filipino talk about whites are this and whites are that. And anti Americanism generally will not affect your interpersonal interactions and social mingling. In the Philippines, you can just tell them you are Canadian and problem solved. How can you deal with a Thai barking "farang- farang" though, when he sees you? Tell him you are not a farang?
1. Consider some quotes from a recent column of the outspoken Thai editor, Voranai Vanijaka:
“For the overly sensitive, if someone calls you ''farang'', it's just the term that we use, our language. Don't get offended. There's no negative connotation to it, unless an expletive precedes it - so chill.�
“Thailand is changing rapidly, and it can be overwhelming, especially to the everyday people walking the streets. Twenty years ago, the only Western faces we saw in Thailand were old and wrinkly, generally speaking. Today, Bangkok is a melting pot filled with people from all corners of the world, young and old.�
“If I went to a club 15 years ago, there were only dark-haired Thais. The only pale faces were those of the Thai-Chinese and those who used very good skin-whitening creams. Now if I go to a club - well, as I did just last night - it's like the United Nations. Whites, blacks, browns, yellows, we have got it all. When I was a kid, there were four channels on TV and that was it. Now my TV has a French channel. Oui.�
“Thailand, well, let's say Bangkok (and to a much lesser extent Chiang Mai, Korat, etc) has become a melting pot, and it has come to a boil very fast, in just about 20 years. The Thai culture and psyche colliding with multiculturalism _ it can be daunting, overwhelming _ will take time to adjust too. Below the-high rises, behind the screenings at state-of-the-art movie theatres and in the basements of fancy shopping malls, this is still a very conservative and traditional society that has just met all the rapid changes head on. It can cause seizures at times.�
2. No Thai has ever repeatedly barked ‘farang’ at me. I’ve never had this problem. In fact, even the dogs in Bangkok rarely seem to bark, lol.
3. Consider Thailand’s race issue from a local perspective. Powers that be in Thailand long ago facilitated conditions to attract huge numbers of visitors and expats. These policies have in large part expanded the local economy and enriched the population. But in other ways, you could argue that they have severely damaged the nation and its culture. Many prime areas in the country now look like they’ve been taken-over by foreign colonies. Some of these new residents also harbor very racist attitudes and condescending behavior towards local sensibilities. And I think about any on-the-ground expat will acknowledge the large and very visible contingent of foreign scum in Thailand – tattooed thugs, mental cases, geezers groping barely legal locals in public, drug dealers, pedophiles, and penniless vagabonds. It’s a part of human nature to be suspicious and untrusting of those who are different until proven otherwise.
ladislav wrote:
Thailand had a time period when white people were not allowed into the country. It was way back, but I think it had an effect on the whole attitude thing.
Please expand on this. You must be talking about some period after the fall of the Khmers in the 1200s. If you think it is a significant factor to current Thai thinking regarding foreigners, tell more.
ladislav wrote:
I was just browsing dateinasia.com and predictably two Thai girls posted- "Asians only". That attitude is quite common in Thailand. In the Philippines, it is virtually unheard of. The Thai girls would much rather mingle with a Korean or a Japanese or a Singaporean/Malaysian than be seen with a white guy. And it is now in the information age. Maybe the society has opened up more, but I do not think that their traditional suspicion for a white man, going back centuries, is gone.
1. Isn’t that the same website where Dano / Wuxi (a white guy) found a good looking Thai girl from a well-off family who offered to buy him a luxury car if he would just marry her? And he found other Thai girls who were very interested in him as well.
2. Two girls requesting “Asian only� hardly proves that such an attitude is common. From what I hear, the Thai component of that website is full of working girls too, very available to anyone with the cash.
3. Please expand on this historically based Thai suspicion of the white man you keep alluding too. You clearly have studied the historical context so please enlighten others.
4. Personally, I think Thailand has become much more fragmented than it used to be. There are local girls who will only date Asians but others who will only date whites, blacks, or something even more specific such as northern Italians. A couple years ago, I met a Thai girl who was obsessed with Spanish culture and insisted on constantly practicing the language with me. Her dream was to find a romantic Latin guy to take her there permanently.
5. In today’s Thailand, I think one of the biggest stigmas from the post Vietnam War days is the white dinosaur w/ young Issan farm girl pairing. It’s still common. But many regular girls, especially those from urban backgrounds, will shun it. On the other hand, a large percentage of this subset will be thrilled to date a younger good looking white or black foreigner who fits certain profiles. During my last visit to Bangkok, one of my Thai friends who recently graduated from college was telling me about how many of the classmates in her circle of closer friends had thought it was kinda gross to date a guy who was several years older (I’m talking just 25-27). Personally she didn’t agree with that thinking. But anyway, when I asked her about their attitudes towards dating foreigners, she said it was a non-issue. What really mattered was how good looking, tall, and fashionable the guy was. As these girls reach their mid-to-late 20s, I suspect the guy’s financial status will play an increasingly important role as well. Materialism and superficial values have taken over much of the youth culture in Thailand.
ladislav wrote:
One thing I have found is that in the Philippines if you speak the local language, they treat you very much like a local. Not so in Thailand. You can learn it all you want. And you may find a group of very good people that will accept you. But you will have to deal with barking strangers all the time, though. Or people ignoring you in stores, people avoiding you and all. Is this paradise? And more tourists may mean more stereotyping and more scorn. And an average shopkeeper may not be affected by the Internet that much.
1. Lad, is it really your goal to go native? You must realize that you are still very separate from the people around you there due to your economic class. You are a rich man to them. If you really wanna be just the same and blend right in, you need to be poor and uneducated. Why don’t you try hanging around upper-middle class Filipinos(as) in Manila who are of similar economic means as you and see how warm they are. Try dating the cute 20 something girls from that subset and see how far you get. From what I’ve been told, even a young white guy would have a harder time attracting a Filipina from a richer family than her Thai counterpart. Just read some of what Winston’s Filipino friend wrote to him in an email. Phils is a very dangerous environment for richer folks making them very paranoid and closed to outsiders.
2. In all honesty, I don’t perceive much difference in the way I am treated in Thai stores and businesses compared to anywhere else. In fact, Thais strike me as being more tolerant in some ways. For example, you can pretty much sit around in any establishment or place of business, not order anything, and never be asked to leave. Contrast that with some of the shops in Hong Kong where sales people are rude and pushy. Or consider some of the clubs in Tokyo’s Ropongi where waiters force you to keep drinking or leave (no empty glasses allowed). And again, nobody in Thailand has ever barked at me, tourist areas or otherwise. As for being ignored in certain Thai shops, it happens once in awhile, but no more than in other countries including the US. And guess what? It happens even more to my girlfriend who shops and bargains more aggressively than I do. And locals constantly mistake her for being Thai or Thai Chinese.
ladislav wrote:
Thailand also once had a big US presence and bases before, by the way.
The reason there are so many other white guys there is because Thailand aggressively promotes tourism. The Philippines does not. And most guys just stay in tourist areas. And associate with other expats. Most also do not speak the language.
1. OK, but why do you think the bulk of American white guys have chosen Phils over Thailand whereas other Anglos and whites have done the opposite?
2. How is Phils any different? Isn’t it true that most expats in Phils also do not learn the local languages, stay in tourist areas, and associate with other expats? And isn’t it true that in much of Phils, locals do not speak English very well?
3. In today’s Thailand, you can find plenty of expats off the beaten track. Even in the bowels of Issan, the outskirts of northern Thailand, the non-Muslim south, and many of the areas in-between, you can find a fair number of westerners who have tried to escape the tourist areas and enjoy a quieter, cheaper, and more traditional style of life. Some even live in temples. If you really want to escape from it all, Thailand is no longer the place.
ladislav wrote:
I learned both Thai and Tagalog and quite a bit of Visaya- I can now converse fairly well. As a general impression, Thais are much more xenophobic of whites from what I have heard them say ( in Thai). They are nice in tourist areas that cater to the farangs, though. Those areas are well, paradise.
I have also worked for a Thai company and a Thai university and so many people hate you and talk shit about you. But it is all in Thai so you would not understand.
Anyway, as the saying goes- whatever jerks one's dodo. If you do not mind all that, again, more power to you.
1. Congratulations on your language skills. Impressive. Thai is not an easy language. I find the tones to be a lot more challenging than those used in Mandarin. And the writing system is a lot more complicated than you would expect give that is based on an alphabet.
2. I can’t claim to always know what people have said around me. But by now, I do understand a fair bit. More importantly, I been around with friends (western and Chinese) who are completely fluent in Thai who I can trust to honestly share with me what was said in the background. Again, I generally have not suffered issues like you (insults, barking, etc.). The only times I know of where people have said rude things is when my girlfriend made them loose face by complaining aggressively to their boss about slow or lazy service.
3. I’m not sure I agree with you on tourist areas being the friendliest. Probably the overall rudest and nastiest Thais I have met were in Pattaya and Banglamphoo. The Thais I met in the Bangkok suburbs during my condo project were generally super nice and helpful. In rural Chiangmai near a university, I once remember asking directions at a local convenience store to get back to my living area. A female student overheard and offered to take me back on her scooter. People in the Issan villages I visited were generally friendly as well. Tourist areas are less hospitable IMO.
4. On the flip side, if tourist areas are ‘well, paradise’ as you say, its very easy to never leave them. Thailand’s tourist areas are huge. Bangkok and Pattaya have been swallowed-up. Same thing may be happening now in Chiang-mai and eventually, even a few areas of Issan. Even places like Pai, where a handful of hippy types used to go to get away, is being affected. If tourist Thailand is paradise for the white guy, its pretty easy to avoid the rest. These days, you’ve really got to make a special effort to get completely away from the tourist in Thailand.
5. Its not that I wouldn’t mind the things you talk about – being barked at, scorned, hated, ignored, insulted, etc. Its just that it generally doesn’t happen to me and those around me the way you describe. You seem to perceive the xenophobia driven discrimination towards westerners in Thailand at a volume of 8-9 out of 10. To me, it’s more like a 2-3, maybe 4 at most.
ladislav wrote:
Filipinos and pride- yes it is annoying, and the country has a lack of pride issue. But they appreciate it when you teach them to be proud as they appreciate your advice and help in most cases and how much you love their country language and music. I did not feel that in Thailand. Only from some.
1. But do you really think you can successfully ‘teach them’ to be proud enough not to ask for or expect handouts from you? For me, that’s a critical determinant of how genuine your relationship with them is.
2. I find that people in many if not most countries appreciate foreigners who take a sincere interest in their culture.
ladislav wrote:
In Mindanao, btw, the people are very proud without being arrogant and humble without being obsequious. And you can deal with most such things.
But scornful taunting and curled up lips and fingers stuck at you and croaking of farang-farang and not being allowed into certain clubs and stuff does not a paradise for a white man make.
Just my opinion and observation. My friends also complained that the Thais were mean. Two guys I know left - they were young and blond and got taunted maliciously to the point where they could not stand it. One was a teacher at a university. Just walking down the street. Suddenly a bark- farang kee nok- kind of like white trash, what trash!.
1. Its amazing how experiences can differ so much for different members of the same racial category. So much 'barking' and 'croaking' against you and your western friends, lol. When did all this shit you talk about go down?
2. The reality is, some foreigners in Thailand strike Thais (and maybe certain other Asians) as ‘farang kee nok’. They may smell bad, be dirty, have excessive body hair, wear flip flops, look disheveled, wear the same clothes for days, or just look poor. Even my girlfriend, who has learned a bit of Thai, has internalized that term and sometimes uses it to describe certain westerners she sees both in Thailand and in Taiwan.
2. Please, name me a club in Thailand that will refuse me entry but allow all NE Asians and Thais.
ladislav wrote:
Anyway, only you can make the judgment call. I make my recommendations and people can dispose of them the way the see fit. If they think what Thailand has to offer is their cup of tea and that it is paradise for white men, then good for them and more power to them. I would say- go to both countries and see where you fit in better as a sum total of everything. I feel that a white guy will be in paradise in the RP whereas an Asian American will be in paradise in Thailand.
1. I agree with your advice but not so sure about your conclusion. I wish Expatriate would share more on the positives and negatives of his experiences as an Asian American in Thailand during the last few years.
2. From my side, I need to spend a lot of time on-the-ground in Phils getting to know the country much better before I can make valid comparisons from the POV of a white tourist/expat.
3. I highly doubt its as simple as that – white guy will find RP a paradise, Asian guy will find Thai a paradise. I’ve met white expats in Thailand who’ve done lots of time in both countries and who strongly prefer Thailand. And you’ve probably met similar white guys in Phils who feel the opposite. Just consider Winston. He seems to like living in Phils. Since he’s an Asian American, do you automatically believe he would be happier in Thailand?
ladislav wrote:
As far as brown Asians, I did not mean Indians. I meant people of Malay race. People who look like an average Thai. Even one Mexican lady had a great time there.
As far as Taiwan and the experience with vibes, well, I may agree with you that the vibes have something to do with it. But again, in Thailand the taunting comes a distance and mockery does as well. Do you think they feel the vibes? And why would you deny that they can in fact be prejudiced because of race? Why does it seem an impossibility?
1. Since you’re so familiar with Thailand, you must be aware of the class structure. Dark skinned people from Issan are generally looked down upon by Central Thais. Sure there are lots shades and distinctions to this system based on many factors. But why, for example, would a white expat manager at a large local company be strongly discouraged from bringing a similar aged dark skinned Issan girl from a poor family as his date to a company function? The answer is that it causes him and his company to lose face. Such a stunt could even be a fireable offense in some firms. What does that imply about his perceived status in the eyes of Thai colleagues relative to hers? What makes you so sure that dark skinned Asians of Malay race are automatically afforded higher status than an Issan farmer? Do you think an average poor Filipino visiting Thailand will be treated much better than white expats?
2. I don’t know why you bring up vibes. What part of my previous posts are you referring to?
3. I do not deny that Thais can be prejudiced because of race. Where did I say or imply that this was an impossibility??? The whole point here is about degrees and shades, how much it detracts from the overall experience in a country. I don’t obsess about race because it’s just one of many variables which impacts how I am treated in a certain place. In Thailand, the way you dress, smell, and look as westerner is also very important. So is your perceived economic and family status. As a white guy, you will be perceived very differently if you are a 35 year old professional type who comes with a blond wife and cute kids than if you are a crusty old man who hangs around Nana Hotel or some sandal wearing gap-year backpacker on Khaosan Rd.
4. Lad, I think most people, myself included, have internalized a degree of natural discrimination based on race, ethnic origin, or even apparent nationality or economic class which would apply to certain scenarios. For example, if a black guy who looks African approaches me in Bangkok, I’m going give him a wide birth, increase my pace, and ignore him if he speaks. In Chengdu, I am very leery of Tibetans and generally avoid their neighborhoods. In Taiwan, I feel nervous in groups of drinking aborigines and prefer not to engage in serious business with Hakkas from certain areas.
5. I will never forget one experience I had here with Filipinos. I interviewed a couple of them for job openings my company had. After the interview, I offered to drive them back to the train station. They took me up on it. But when we got to my car, they both got in the back seat and sang loudly the whole trip ignoring me completely, just as if I was their driver. I thought that was bizarre and quite rude to boot. Needless to say, I did not hire either one of them. When I related the story to some of my Taiwanese colleagues, they just laughed in a condescending way and warned me to be very careful about dark skinned Asians (people from SE Asia).
ladislav wrote:
Have you ever worked at a Philippine company? From what I’ve read, the locals tend to resent highly paid expats and would prefer to see the positions by a Filipino. Any on this forum can verify if that’s true or not?
No, I have not. So, I cannot comment. In Makati, a huge number of companies are foreign owned with a foreign manager. I saw the white guys there lounging and smiling happily. But the Filipino resentment is jealousy, mainly. It is not ' racial' hatred. They may resent an expat who has big money, be he yellow, brown, white or black. The government has laws that promote Filipinos. Understandably so. So, maybe one should become a Filipino citizen. In that country, if you are a citizen, you are a Filipino.
Resentment is resentment. Why does the ultimate source matter so much? I’m more concerned with how the overall environment helps or hinders my expat life. Being threatened and beaten-up by a sub-set of locals for being black or yellow in Russia is very different thing than being just ‘tolerated’ for being white by a sub-set of locals in Thailand. And getting discriminatory treatment in Phils due to economic status may not be so different than getting discriminatory treatment in Thailand due to race. Bottom line is, you are perceived as different. Do you really think getting a Filipino citizenship will change that? If I wanted, I could get a Republic of China citizenship too. Would that really change much how locals perceive me? Perhaps, but just marginally.