is it really easier to get laid abroad?

[Rock]

For those who have not seen it much, I believe it exists much more than you think, even in the U.S. Several guys on this forum have already weighed in about their much younger wives/gfs. I am far from a player or PUA but even in the U.S. my last 2 gfs were 20 years younger than me. In each case, they had already had older bfs before and thought nothing of it.

Why is it less visible? For one thing, in this culture older people are less visible in general. For another, older men are often more discrete and find it less necessary to parade their gfs around in public. And for another the girls are also discrete. My younger gf did not introduce me to the parents, relatives or BFFs, and I did not introduce her to my kids. We knew it was not leading to marriage, so why invoke any parental or societal shaming. Today we are best friends and sometime FWBs and thats how we like it.

A generation or 2 ago this dynamic was more open in the West. My grandfather divorced my grandmother at 50 and ended up marrying a woman 20+ years younger, who was beautiful, elegant (almost regal) and towered over him (he was 5'4"). In the 20 + years they were married before his death I never heard anyone question it. In that generation it was obvious why a younger beautiful woman wanted my grandfather: he was dynamic, powerful, built a business from nothing, and while not wealthy, had a nice lifestyle. In that generation few women worked, and providing a good life was the responsibilty of the man. I am confident my grandfather had lots of options!

My cousin revered him and wanted to create a life just like his. Today my cousin is 60 or 61 and married to a woman 30 years younger. No one questions it. My cousin is dynamic, powerful and successful. All she asked of him was that he give her a baby and she would take care of it. They have a 2 year old.

I guess I got my grandfathers genetics as well!! My motto is: I never date within my generation.

One reason that it seems a bit rare is that many people want a relationship with someone of their own time and place. Personally I do not need to share with anyone my age when I first saw the Beatles. I am happy to hear about my younger gfs culture and find the difference compelling. But thats me. But most of my friends are happy to pursue women closer to their age. Its their preference but I think my preference has its advantages also.

Your background sounds similar to mine. After my grandmother died, my grandfather went back to Italy and married a much younger woman. My Colombian ex was 20 years younger than me, and in Colombia that is not considered a significant difference. She also had bfs my age when she lived in Colombia. There are women who want older men. You just have to find them. Also, the women tend to by slightly more rebellious, intelligent, and able to think outside the box. Many times they grew up with a distant or unavailable father. When I was in Ukraine, I met an American man from West Virginia in his 50s who would go to the public library or post office and pick up young college women even though he couldn't speak a word of Russian or Ukrainian. Some guys just know how to do it.

Yea, these types of guys should teach PU courses to older guys who wanna date young women. The only guy I know of who has done this so far is Don Steele and from what I've seen on Youtube, his seminars are a joke. That Sodini guy who killed 3 women in his gym then committed suicide was a Steele disciple so watch-out.

As for Colombia, I also heard that women there were less ageist. But in the cities where I spent a lot of time - Cali, Cartagena, and Medellin - I almost never saw large age gap couples. Of the gringos I knew there, the ones who did well with young women tended to be in their late 20s to mid-30s. The 40 somethings were still able to date 20 somethings, but not the best ones. The young women they got with usually had babies and were pushing 30 if not already beyond. And the 50 somethings dated single 30 something mothers who often seemed prematurely aged. However, Colombia does have a lot of reasonably priced small P4P venues where age is not going to be much of a problem if you just want sex.

Having said that, one local girl I know there married a much older (gringo) man. She was just 21 and he was like 52. But she was given most of the power in the relationship (that's part of why she agreed) and was allowed to go out freely with her young friends, pretend to be single on dating sites, hook-up with other guys and have romantic relationships with them, etc. I even caught up with her in the States a couple years after the marriage and she was still living that kind of dual life.

[OutWest]

For those who have not seen it much, I believe it exists much more than you think, even in the U.S. Several guys on this forum have already weighed in about their much younger wives/gfs. I am far from a player or PUA but even in the U.S. my last 2 gfs were 20 years younger than me. In each case, they had already had older bfs before and thought nothing of it.

Why is it less visible? For one thing, in this culture older people are less visible in general. For another, older men are often more discrete and find it less necessary to parade their gfs around in public. And for another the girls are also discrete. My younger gf did not introduce me to the parents, relatives or BFFs, and I did not introduce her to my kids. We knew it was not leading to marriage, so why invoke any parental or societal shaming. Today we are best friends and sometime FWBs and thats how we like it.

A generation or 2 ago this dynamic was more open in the West. My grandfather divorced my grandmother at 50 and ended up marrying a woman 20+ years younger, who was beautiful, elegant (almost regal) and towered over him (he was 5'4"). In the 20 + years they were married before his death I never heard anyone question it. In that generation it was obvious why a younger beautiful woman wanted my grandfather: he was dynamic, powerful, built a business from nothing, and while not wealthy, had a nice lifestyle. In that generation few women worked, and providing a good life was the responsibilty of the man. I am confident my grandfather had lots of options!

My cousin revered him and wanted to create a life just like his. Today my cousin is 60 or 61 and married to a woman 30 years younger. No one questions it. My cousin is dynamic, powerful and successful. All she asked of him was that he give her a baby and she would take care of it. They have a 2 year old.

I guess I got my grandfathers genetics as well!! My motto is: I never date within my generation.

One reason that it seems a bit rare is that many people want a relationship with someone of their own time and place. Personally I do not need to share with anyone my age when I first saw the Beatles. I am happy to hear about my younger gfs culture and find the difference compelling. But thats me. But most of my friends are happy to pursue women closer to their age. Its their preference but I think my preference has its advantages also.

Your background sounds similar to mine. After my grandmother died, my grandfather went back to Italy and married a much younger woman. My Colombian ex was 20 years younger than me, and in Colombia that is not considered a significant difference. She also had bfs my age when she lived in Colombia. There are women who want older men. You just have to find them. Also, the women tend to by slightly more rebellious, intelligent, and able to think outside the box. Many times they grew up with a distant or unavailable father. When I was in Ukraine, I met an American man from West Virginia in his 50s who would go to the public library or post office and pick up young college women even though he couldn't speak a word of Russian or Ukrainian. Some guys just know how to do it.

Yea, these types of guys should teach PU courses to older guys who wanna date young women. The only guy I know of who has done this so far is Don Steele and from what I've seen on Youtube, his seminars are a joke. That Sodini guy who killed 3 women in his gym then committed suicide was a Steele disciple so watch-out.

As for Colombia, I also heard that women there were less ageist. But in the cities where I spent a lot of time - Cali, Cartagena, and Medellin - I almost never saw large age gap couples. Of the gringos I knew there, the ones who did well with young women tended to be in their late 20s to mid-30s. The 40 somethings were still able to date 20 somethings, but not the best ones. The young women they got with usually had babies and were pushing 30 if not already beyond. And the 50 somethings dated single 30 something mothers who often seemed prematurely aged. However, Colombia does have a lot of reasonably priced small P4P venues where age is not going to be much of a problem if you just want sex.

Having said that, one local girl I know there married a much older (gringo) man. She was just 21 and he was like 52. But she was given most of the power in the relationship (that's part of why she agreed) and was allowed to go out freely with her young friends, pretend to be single on dating sites, hook-up with other guys and have romantic relationships with them, etc. I even caught up with her in the States a couple years after the marriage and she was still living that kind of dual life.

Yes...THAT about sums it up... "Some guys just know how to do it."

and the quote "A lot of older guys may claim they want women in their own age group. But in reality, I bet many if not most just don't feel qualified. So they make up a lot of BS context about not being able to relate with young women, yada yada. If you ever take one of em to a place with young and willing prostitutes such as Angeles City, don't be surprised if he instantly falls in love with a little brown prostitute with whom he shares absolutely nothing in common." is exactly so. I have seen this happen a lot. In fact, the more a man squawks about how he is not interested, the more likely it seems he
will jump on the first little tart who comes along, and someone as you say, with whom he has NOTHING in common.
A lot of men are very heavily invested in their own misery and denial, so when choices come, they lurch into it like a drunk man...

outwest

[MrPeabody]

I would like to give one warning to younger men. There seems to be a "monger-based reality" circulating on the Internet where the underlining assumption is that all women are motivated only by money. This is why I think that, although not perfect, the PUA assumption that "women are primarily motivated by feelings and can be influenced" is more positive, psychologically healthy, and also closer to reality. For example, before I went to Thailand, I read this one blog which gave the monger centric point of view. When I went to Thailand, I lived in an middle class Thai neighborhood well away from expats and found another reality. But yet this guy seems to be considered the last word on truth for expats in Thailand. I have basically found the Internet to be an information sewer. Another example - when I wanted to learn how to trade, everyone on the Internet says it is impossible to make money. So, I got my series 7 license and apprenticed for 6 months under a man who makes over a million a year, in order to learn how it is actually done. I quickly learned that when someone says it can't be done, it means they can't do it. In any case, if you are a heterosexual, then you have to find some way of making peace with women, or you are going to be miserable. When you go to a foreign country, stay the hell away from P4P, because it will warp your whole view of reality and only create suffering for yourself. Practice approaching and getting the interest of normal women. Do your best and don't feel bad because everyone has failures. That's how you learn.

[Rock]

I would like to give one warning to younger men. There seems to be a "monger-based reality" circulating on the Internet where the underlining assumption is that all women are motivated only by money. This is why I think that, although not perfect, the PUA assumption that "women are primarily motivated by feelings and can be influenced" is more positive, psychologically healthy, and also closer to reality. For example, before I went to Thailand, I read this one blog which gave the monger centric point of view. When I went to Thailand, I lived in an middle class Thai neighborhood well away from expats and found another reality. But yet this guy seems to be considered the last word on truth for expats in Thailand. I have basically found the Internet to be an information sewer. Another example - when I wanted to learn how to trade, everyone on the Internet says it is impossible to make money. So, I got my series 7 license and apprenticed for 6 months under a man who makes over a million a year, in order to learn how it is actually done. I quickly learned that when someone says it can't be done, it means they can't do it. In any case, if you are a heterosexual, then you have to find some way of making peace with women, or you are going to be miserable. When you go to a foreign country, stay the hell away from P4P, because it will warp your whole view of reality and only create suffering for yourself. Practice approaching and getting the interest of normal women. Do your best and don't feel bad because everyone has failures. That's how you learn.

Mongering should be left to the older guys. Most young guys can get plenty of genuine intimacy and companionship from very attractive young girls as long as they go to more favorable countries and learn the required skills. The fact that younger guys have been crowding the P4P markets over the last few years does damage on two levels - 1. it can ruin their own potential for pure relationships with young women and 2. it the hurts the market for unfortunate older competitors who end up getting the scraps and/or having to pay a huge premium for a formerly inexpensive privilege.

Its very easy for a properly trained and confident average looking YOUNGER westerner to get young attractive dates, girlfriends, and sex without paying in places like LatAm, Asia, and presumably CIS countries. Learn the skills, go for regular girls, and enjoy until you settle down or can no longer compete. Then you can start pulling out that fat wallet to continue your play in a new arena, lol.

[djfourmoney]

I would like to give one warning to younger men. There seems to be a "monger-based reality" circulating on the Internet where the underlining assumption is that all women are motivated only by money. This is why I think that, although not perfect, the PUA assumption that "women are primarily motivated by feelings and can be influenced" is more positive, psychologically healthy, and also closer to reality. For example, before I went to Thailand, I read this one blog which gave the monger centric point of view. When I went to Thailand, I lived in an middle class Thai neighborhood well away from expats and found another reality. But yet this guy seems to be considered the last word on truth for expats in Thailand. I have basically found the Internet to be an information sewer. Another example - when I wanted to learn how to trade, everyone on the Internet says it is impossible to make money. So, I got my series 7 license and apprenticed for 6 months under a man who makes over a million a year, in order to learn how it is actually done. I quickly learned that when someone says it can't be done, it means they can't do it. In any case, if you are a heterosexual, then you have to find some way of making peace with women, or you are going to be miserable. When you go to a foreign country, stay the hell away from P4P, because it will warp your whole view of reality and only create suffering for yourself. Practice approaching and getting the interest of normal women. Do your best and don't feel bad because everyone has failures. That's how you learn.

Mongering should be left to the older guys. Most young guys can get plenty of genuine intimacy and companionship from very attractive young girls as long as they go to more favorable countries and learn the required skills. The fact that younger guys have been crowding the P4P markets over the last few years does damage on two levels - 1. it can ruin their own potential for pure relationships with young women and 2. it the hurts the market for unfortunate older competitors who end up getting the scraps and/or having to pay a huge premium for a formerly inexpensive privilege.

Its very easy for a properly trained and confident average looking YOUNGER westerner to get young attractive dates, girlfriends, and sex without paying in places like LatAm, Asia, and presumably CIS countries. Learn the skills, go for regular girls, and enjoy until you settle down or can no longer compete. Then you can start pulling out that fat wallet to continue your play in a new arena, lol.

I don't know about this. This sounds similar the canard about bringing a foreign women into the US as your bride.

Look, men have needs. How do you solve this basic human need? Find a woman that's willing to put aside all the BS and f**k you anyway because she has needs? This happens so rarely and is really a right place at the right time sort of thing that I can't recommend this.

Just as Tom Cruise put to his fellow high school students. You're out $40-$50 or more on an average date. On top of that, your armed with the knowledge from the book "Marry Him" that women list several hundred things NOT to give a guy a second date. Now if your not completely cynical, you would look at this as an investment intimacy to be collected at a later date. Even if Date #1 went exceedingly well in your estimation, almost anything could prevent a 2nd date.

So where would you be? I happen to think most young men struggle. Its really obvious after DJ'ing nightclubs on a regular basic since 1991-1992 that most men stand around waiting for something to happen to them while a few are aggressive enough and have a strong enough ego to stare rejection down.

I am not saying P4P replaces dating but I think that's what your saying.

[Rock]

I would like to give one warning to younger men. There seems to be a "monger-based reality" circulating on the Internet where the underlining assumption is that all women are motivated only by money. This is why I think that, although not perfect, the PUA assumption that "women are primarily motivated by feelings and can be influenced" is more positive, psychologically healthy, and also closer to reality. For example, before I went to Thailand, I read this one blog which gave the monger centric point of view. When I went to Thailand, I lived in an middle class Thai neighborhood well away from expats and found another reality. But yet this guy seems to be considered the last word on truth for expats in Thailand. I have basically found the Internet to be an information sewer. Another example - when I wanted to learn how to trade, everyone on the Internet says it is impossible to make money. So, I got my series 7 license and apprenticed for 6 months under a man who makes over a million a year, in order to learn how it is actually done. I quickly learned that when someone says it can't be done, it means they can't do it. In any case, if you are a heterosexual, then you have to find some way of making peace with women, or you are going to be miserable. When you go to a foreign country, stay the hell away from P4P, because it will warp your whole view of reality and only create suffering for yourself. Practice approaching and getting the interest of normal women. Do your best and don't feel bad because everyone has failures. That's how you learn.

Mongering should be left to the older guys. Most young guys can get plenty of genuine intimacy and companionship from very attractive young girls as long as they go to more favorable countries and learn the required skills. The fact that younger guys have been crowding the P4P markets over the last few years does damage on two levels - 1. it can ruin their own potential for pure relationships with young women and 2. it the hurts the market for unfortunate older competitors who end up getting the scraps and/or having to pay a huge premium for a formerly inexpensive privilege.

Its very easy for a properly trained and confident average looking YOUNGER westerner to get young attractive dates, girlfriends, and sex without paying in places like LatAm, Asia, and presumably CIS countries. Learn the skills, go for regular girls, and enjoy until you settle down or can no longer compete. Then you can start pulling out that fat wallet to continue your play in a new arena, lol.

I don't know about this. This sounds similar the canard about bringing a foreign women into the US as your bride.

Look, men have needs. How do you solve this basic human need? Find a woman that's willing to put aside all the BS and f**k you anyway because she has needs? This happens so rarely and is really a right place at the right time sort of thing that I can't recommend this.

Just as Tom Cruise put to his fellow high school students. You're out $40-$50 or more on an average date. On top of that, your armed with the knowledge from the book "Marry Him" that women list several hundred things NOT to give a guy a second date. Now if your not completely cynical, you would look at this as an investment intimacy to be collected at a later date. Even if Date #1 went exceedingly well in your estimation, almost anything could prevent a 2nd date.

So where would you be? I happen to think most young men struggle. Its really obvious after DJ'ing nightclubs on a regular basic since 1991-1992 that most men stand around waiting for something to happen to them while a few are aggressive enough and have a strong enough ego to stare rejection down.

I am not saying P4P replaces dating but I think that's what your saying.

I know you've been to Europe and all. But your perspective sounds very Americentric. I'm coming from the opposite extreme. I think things work a lot differently in some corners of the world than what you're used to.

As for P4P replacing dating, I believe its a very poor substitute and should be used very sparingly if at all by younger guys. But for older guys, it can be the difference between being with a real woman or maturating to porn. So it partially serves a purpose and fills a need - sexual release and sometimes the illusion of companionship. But younger guys hardly need this since they can easily get plenty of the real deal as long as they adequately prepare and go to the right places.

Having said all that, some young guys are so horny and impatient that they need to supplement their real dating with occasional prostitutes on the side. Thing is, the P4P route can be a slippery slope and lead to all kinds of problems. So it behooves such guys to exercise strong discipline and self control. In other words, don't over-indulge in the easy fix. Put in the work, find the locations, and build genuine relationships while bolstering your self confidence in the process.

[davewe]

5. I suppose there are older guys who specialize in finding those rare young women who will give them the time of day in a romantic context. How rare do you think such women are in the States today - 1 out of 500? Worse? Better? Just curious.

A friend of mine is a therapist and about my age. We talked about this not long ago. He laughed when I asked his opinion and said, he had many clients (male and female) in such relationships but that it is often "hidden, underground". He then proceded to tell me how a 24-year old female friend had recently propositioned him. He's in an ltr so turned her down.

In the West you can find every fetish imaginable and people who are into that preference. Check out fetlife! So this stuff is not that hard to find; hell it's not really even a fetish. So, I would think the percentage is much higher than 1/500. If you ask women (and if they are honest) I suspect most will say that at one point in time she had a much older bf, even if only as an experiment. Now marriage and public scrutiny in the West - that's a different thing. Which is perhaps the difference in some of these other countries where you can marry or be public and its more accepted. This is why I am interested in travel or relocation. I have grown bored of having to pretend that I am an "age appropriate male wh acts his age" and I hope that in some other places I can be more true to who I am and what I want.

Again, I'm no PUA, by any means, but here's a tip. If you are interested in sexually adventurous younger women, go where sexually adventurous people go. Take tantra classes (I study it), go to your local sex club (we have a nice one in my town). Or just keep you eyes open and dont shut your mind.

But I agree that older men who might be interested in young women either dont have the confidence or have allowed the shaming culture to influence them.

[S_Parc]

I would like to give one warning to younger men. There seems to be a "monger-based reality" circulating on the Internet where the underlining assumption is that all women are motivated only by money. This is why I think that, although not perfect, the PUA assumption that "women are primarily motivated by feelings and can be influenced" is more positive, psychologically healthy, and also closer to reality.

Mr Peabody, I grant you your wisdom, however, I'll tell you one thing... my sister is highly motivated by her feelings; she has histrionic personality disorder. Is that a good thing?... I would think not. And sure, you might say that she's one bad pear but you know what ... I see elements of it, all of the place. Which then leads to the next observation regarding emotions/careers...

Another example - when I wanted to learn how to trade, everyone on the Internet says it is impossible to make money. So, I got my series 7 license and apprenticed for 6 months under a man who makes over a million a year, in order to learn how it is actually done. I quickly learned that when someone says it can't be done, it means they can't do it.

A lot of guys, who stay in the game long term, do so because they can manage their emotions. Thus, low percentage traders have their patience scoped out, for the authentic breakouts, and higher volume traders, for their spreads and/or hit-loss ratios/periods. Now, look at the gender gap in trading, there aren't too many independent women traders, in comparison, despite the fact that there's no glass ceiling in the field.

But then again, you can say that about anything? I believe most anyone, disciplined enough, can become a doctor and pass the USMLE and work for a decent six figure income, if one can manage one's emotions. Sure, there are hurdles but most of them are about buckling down and learning the materials.

The major problem with male/female long term relations is that in the end, the guy is either the *emotions* management consultant or someone who eventually gets saddled with the family's baggage. This is more common than not. So while I loved the non-paid for relationships (et al) in Brazil, I wasn't quite ready to deal with the Banyan tree of extended family politics.

So while I don't have a one shoe fits all answer, however, I think the *paid for* answer also needs to be fleshed out (pun intended) a bit more than just a form of confidence/cop out escapism, like playing a video game.

[Rock]

5. I suppose there are older guys who specialize in finding those rare young women who will give them the time of day in a romantic context. How rare do you think such women are in the States today - 1 out of 500? Worse? Better? Just curious.

A friend of mine is a therapist and about my age. We talked about this not long ago. He laughed when I asked his opinion and said, he had many clients (male and female) in such relationships but that it is often "hidden, underground". He then proceded to tell me how a 24-year old female friend had recently propositioned him. He's in an ltr so turned her down.

In the West you can find every fetish imaginable and people who are into that preference. Check out fetlife! So this stuff is not that hard to find; hell it's not really even a fetish. So, I would think the percentage is much higher than 1/500. If you ask women (and if they are honest) I suspect most will say that at one point in time she had a much older bf, even if only as an experiment. Now marriage and public scrutiny in the West - that's a different thing. Which is perhaps the difference in some of these other countries where you can marry or be public and its more accepted. This is why I am interested in travel or relocation. I have grown bored of having to pretend that I am an "age appropriate male wh acts his age" and I hope that in some other places I can be more true to who I am and what I want.

Again, I'm no PUA, by any means, but here's a tip. If you are interested in sexually adventurous younger women, go where sexually adventurous people go. Take tantra classes (I study it), go to your local sex club (we have a nice one in my town). Or just keep you eyes open and dont shut your mind.

But I agree that older men who might be interested in young women either dont have the confidence or have allowed the shaming culture to influence them.

Hmm, if that's the case, perhaps the west is the best place for a much older guy to find young women. Cus in the so-called hotspot countries, these relationships really boil down to P4P well over 99% of the time according to my experience. Since you and some of your relatives and friends can pull-it off in the States, why bother going abroad where its probably going to be tougher for you in most places (unless you wanna do P4P)?

As for fetishes, I am aware that about every type exists. I mean, there are young guys who wanna sleep with grannies too but I would guess its extremely rare (1/500 or less). I've also read that swingers clubs generally favor the young and and best looking from both sexes. These are the players who get most of the action. Older and less attractive people, especially males, get relegated to mainly watching. Have you ever been to one?

[lavezzi]

If I may ask the question, why would anyone want to know how easy it is to get laid in countries where it is common knowlege that P4P (As you all seem to call it) is widely available all night for a low price? What is the real difference between paying for it and 'one night stands' or whatever you want to call it? I know the obvious answer, that it results in an ego boost that confirms how she was attracted to you at the time. But is that not the kind of bullshit values we want to get away from when discussing leaving the Anglosphere?

[S_Parc]

If I may ask the question, why would anyone want to know how easy it is to get laid in countries where it is common knowlege that P4P (As you all seem to call it) is widely available all night for a low price? What is the real difference between paying for it and 'one night stands' or whatever you want to call it? I know the obvious answer, that it results in an ego boost that confirms how she was attracted to you at the time. But is that not the kind of bullshit values we want to get away from when discussing leaving the Anglosphere?

Nicely put!

In many places, the GFE with a P4P is available and there's no need for the ego booster.

IMHO, I think a lot of that has something do with the Oedipal/Imprinting ideas left in American men, from early childhood, where bonding with the mother figure is tantamount to a healthy existence.

From my perspective, I feel ... who cares about what the opposite gender thinks. Granted, that may sound a bit callous and cold-hearted but really, I always wonder why I'm not allowed to feel that way in the USA? Is a woman's valuation of me, from the 3rd party's p.o.v., that important in the grand scheme of things?

[djfourmoney]

I would like to give one warning to younger men. There seems to be a "monger-based reality" circulating on the Internet where the underlining assumption is that all women are motivated only by money. This is why I think that, although not perfect, the PUA assumption that "women are primarily motivated by feelings and can be influenced" is more positive, psychologically healthy, and also closer to reality. For example, before I went to Thailand, I read this one blog which gave the monger centric point of view. When I went to Thailand, I lived in an middle class Thai neighborhood well away from expats and found another reality. But yet this guy seems to be considered the last word on truth for expats in Thailand. I have basically found the Internet to be an information sewer. Another example - when I wanted to learn how to trade, everyone on the Internet says it is impossible to make money. So, I got my series 7 license and apprenticed for 6 months under a man who makes over a million a year, in order to learn how it is actually done. I quickly learned that when someone says it can't be done, it means they can't do it. In any case, if you are a heterosexual, then you have to find some way of making peace with women, or you are going to be miserable. When you go to a foreign country, stay the hell away from P4P, because it will warp your whole view of reality and only create suffering for yourself. Practice approaching and getting the interest of normal women. Do your best and don't feel bad because everyone has failures. That's how you learn.

Mongering should be left to the older guys. Most young guys can get plenty of genuine intimacy and companionship from very attractive young girls as long as they go to more favorable countries and learn the required skills. The fact that younger guys have been crowding the P4P markets over the last few years does damage on two levels - 1. it can ruin their own potential for pure relationships with young women and 2. it the hurts the market for unfortunate older competitors who end up getting the scraps and/or having to pay a huge premium for a formerly inexpensive privilege.

Its very easy for a properly trained and confident average looking YOUNGER westerner to get young attractive dates, girlfriends, and sex without paying in places like LatAm, Asia, and presumably CIS countries. Learn the skills, go for regular girls, and enjoy until you settle down or can no longer compete. Then you can start pulling out that fat wallet to continue your play in a new arena, lol.

I don't know about this. This sounds similar the canard about bringing a foreign women into the US as your bride.

Look, men have needs. How do you solve this basic human need? Find a woman that's willing to put aside all the BS and f**k you anyway because she has needs? This happens so rarely and is really a right place at the right time sort of thing that I can't recommend this.

Just as Tom Cruise put to his fellow high school students. You're out $40-$50 or more on an average date. On top of that, your armed with the knowledge from the book "Marry Him" that women list several hundred things NOT to give a guy a second date. Now if your not completely cynical, you would look at this as an investment intimacy to be collected at a later date. Even if Date #1 went exceedingly well in your estimation, almost anything could prevent a 2nd date.

So where would you be? I happen to think most young men struggle. Its really obvious after DJ'ing nightclubs on a regular basic since 1991-1992 that most men stand around waiting for something to happen to them while a few are aggressive enough and have a strong enough ego to stare rejection down.

I am not saying P4P replaces dating but I think that's what your saying.

I know you've been to Europe and all. But your perspective sounds very Americentric. I'm coming from the opposite extreme. I think things work a lot differently in some corners of the world than what you're used to.

As for P4P replacing dating, I believe its a very poor substitute and should be used very sparingly if at all by younger guys. But for older guys, it can be the difference between being with a real woman or maturating to porn. So it partially serves a purpose and fills a need - sexual release and sometimes the illusion of companionship. But younger guys hardly need this since they can easily get plenty of the real deal as long as they adequately prepare and go to the right places.

Having said all that, some young guys are so horny and impatient that they need to supplement their real dating with occasional prostitutes on the side. Thing is, the P4P route can be a slippery slope and lead to all kinds of problems. So it behooves such guys to exercise strong discipline and self control. In other words, don't over-indulge in the easy fix. Put in the work, find the locations, and build genuine relationships while bolstering your self confidence in the process.

It might be American-Centric but I still stay that if you have trouble getting laid at home (the US) then you'll have just as much trouble. The women aren't any more aggressive. They may play less games but aren't any more aggressive. In your favor she MIGHT give you a signal you can use instead of forcing you to be a mind reader like you have to be here.

I'm looking at it from a mongers perspective, guys looking for short term hook ups with women, Pro or Non-Pro. They say the heyday in Eastern Europe was the mid-90's and how long ago was that? Many say the best time to be in Thailand was about a decade ago. Mongers are explorers of years gone by. By the time the layman/mainstream hits a location they have used up the talent pool by then and made women suspicious of Western Men. This is where the term Sex Tourist comes from.

Is there ANY other reason to be in some of these countries??? Not really chasing women is the past time. I'm not a woman, I'm not a cultural freak or any of that. I went to Germany to find my wife from possible two women, narrowed it down to one. When the plan expanded it, it became a European Vacation.

For RELATIONSHIPS, I agree with your suggestion. But c'mon you said I sounded American-centric? Your saying resist the desire to have sex so you can strengthen your resolve? Besides, let's be realistic, only if you have affordable access to Mexico is P4P even on your radar. Even then, dudes claim they don't pay for p***y, Mexico is dangerous, you'll get STD's from women (even though they have health cards) and you can't drink the water...

Stay Sexless Dudes, you don't pay for p***y and American Women aren't f***ing you either... I've long given up on playing Good Samaritan, if you want to tell all the kiddies, if you feel the need, use your left/right hand, that's fine with me. It won't improve their confidence. That only comes from enough women accepting your advances, in otherwords, saying YES.

As I said and I think you keep missing it, P4P is NOT a long term solution. If you're lured in by easy sex, you're not strong enough to survive a relationship with woman under normal circumstances.

[S_Parc]

Stay Sexless Dudes, you don't pay for p***y and American Women aren't f***ing you either... I've long given up on playing Good Samaritan, if you want to tell all the kiddies, if you feel the need, use your left/right hand, that's fine with me. It won't improve their confidence. That only comes from enough women accepting your advances, in otherwords, saying YES.

As I said and I think you keep missing it, P4P is NOT a long term solution. If you're lured in by easy sex, you're not strong enough to survive a relationship with woman under normal circumstances.

In other words, the primary way for a man to feel good is to be in some semi-permanent state of approval by women.

This is exactly what got my brother-in-law married to my sister. Guess what ... he'll survive that relationship, till the end, but I suspect that he'll die 10 years before his natural time.

[djfourmoney]

Stay Sexless Dudes, you don't pay for p***y and American Women aren't f***ing you either... I've long given up on playing Good Samaritan, if you want to tell all the kiddies, if you feel the need, use your left/right hand, that's fine with me. It won't improve their confidence. That only comes from enough women accepting your advances, in otherwords, saying YES.

As I said and I think you keep missing it, P4P is NOT a long term solution. If you're lured in by easy sex, you're not strong enough to survive a relationship with woman under normal circumstances.

In other words, the primary way for a man to feel good is to be in some semi-permanent state of approval by women.

This is exactly what got my brother-in-law married to my sister. Guess what ... he'll survive that relationship, till the end, but I suspect that he'll die 10 years before his natural time.

Actually what I am saying is. You need to win and lose, just like with anything else in life to learn the lesson of failure. You are not looking for universal validation by women. You want to "Win" enough not to loose confidence but lose enough to understand the mistakes you made. Not every woman is going to be receptive to your advances, that should be automatically understood.

Being successful in your career will win the approval of most women. If women have to accept that they have to tippy toe around your fragile male ego, then you have to accept that women need to be assured of security and that is such a broad term, it covers at least a couple of subjects that have nothing to do with physical security.

A good career assures a woman that she is secure from poverty for example. But there's a trick to this. She has to be made to understand that we all succeed or we all fail and that there is no "I" in Family or in Team. If you can't make a woman understand that, then you shouldn't be involved with any woman like that long term.

Parc you also have to remember that some men fear being single again as well.... I think men fear being single over 40 than women fear it. I think women just fear because of their age they are less attractive. But they are more concerned of the men left at that stage are bitter divorced men (a few of them are on here) and complete losers. Men fear they won't be noticed by anybody but women past their prime.

[Rock]

If I may ask the question, why would anyone want to know how easy it is to get laid in countries where it is common knowlege that P4P (As you all seem to call it) is widely available all night for a low price? What is the real difference between paying for it and 'one night stands' or whatever you want to call it? I know the obvious answer, that it results in an ego boost that confirms how she was attracted to you at the time. But is that not the kind of bullshit values we want to get away from when discussing leaving the Anglosphere?

1. P4P for prices are escalating for Americans overseas due to: a. ongoing US$ decline, b. high levels of emerging market inflation, c. influx of new customers from many parts of the world. What would cost you US$35 in early 2000s may cost US$100-200 or more today. Fine if you are wealthy but quite painful if you are on a limited budget.

2. P4P markets are getting increasingly segmented. The better looking girls can get paid a premium via tiered pricing, higher paying customers from certain parts of the world, or just much hither asking prices. If you wanna keep it relatively cheap, you are usually stuck with rougher and uglier girls, especially if you are older.

3. IMO, experience, P4P girls generally don't treat guys nearly as well as legit dates do. They often don't perform well sexually, especially in some markets, cus they're just so bored with doing it all the time. Also, with the P4P girls, you really gotta keep an eye on your stuff or hide it. And leaving drinks unattended once in your room can be dangerous as spiking is not uncommon. Again, this is somewhat market and venue dependent.

4. P4P markets are being crowded by younger and richer guys pushing the supply/demand out of favor for the older and/or poorer punter. Many of hotter girls in places like Pattaya will only go with younger guys. Many others demand to be paid a huge premium and will only go short-time.

5. Most run-of-the-mill P4P girls are below average looking. The real hotties you see are generally not in the game. Rio and even Bangkok have plenty of very hot to super cute chicks around in the malls, clubs, etc. But most are for real dating, not P4P. The ones that are for sale are super-expensive - often US$500-1,000 or more for an extended session. Again fine if your wealthy. Otherwise, too bad.

6. Non-P4P girls who genuinely like tend to treat you well, help you out with language/cultural issues, and are just a lot more fun to be around. Plus, they tend to look a lot better. Sure, there are some exceptional P4P girls if you search enough. But the dating and relationship dynamic with them is still very different. I find that you actually have a lot more power with a regular girl.