Approaching Taiwan girls - Response to Winston

[Winston]

Rock and everyone:

What about this basic logic problem here?

Many of us here have established that the US is a lonely disconnected country and culture, from our personal experiences and through statistics (such as my report and Steve's). So if the US is very antisocial, and has a high rate of loneliness and mental illness as a result, then get this. Taiwanese and Japanese actually BELIEVE that Americans are more open, friendly, expressive and liberal about sex than they are! WTF!? No way! But it's true! That is how they perceive Americans. Now, here's the thing. If the US is an antisocial, lonely, disconnected country where it's hard to talk to strangers (esp women, but old folks are friendly and talk to anyone of course), and Taiwanese see the US as far friendlier than themselves, that would logically place Taiwanese as LESS OPEN/FRIENDLY/LIBERAL than America is. This means that logic would follow that Taiwan would be even MORE lonely and antisocial than the US is! So, given this logical conclusion, how could Taiwan possibly be a dating paradise for an average western guy?

Also, can you look up loneliness rates for Taiwan? Are many Taiwanese lonely? Is loneliness widespread in Taiwan? If so, how can it be the super open friendly dating paradise that people on the internet say it is?

I'm confused about the logic here. Anyone want to try to solve this logic problem?

[ladislav]

Rock and everyone:

What about this basic logic problem here?

Many of us here have established that the US is a lonely disconnected country and culture, from our personal experiences and through statistics (such as my report and Steve's). So if the US is very antisocial, and has a high rate of loneliness and mental illness as a result, then get this. Taiwanese and Japanese actually BELIEVE that Americans are more open, friendly, expressive and liberal about sex than they are! WTF!? No way! But it's true! That is how they perceive Americans. Now, here's the thing. If the US is an antisocial, lonely, disconnected country where it's hard to talk to strangers (esp women, but old folks are friendly and talk to anyone of course), and Taiwanese see the US as far friendlier than themselves, that would logically place Taiwanese as LESS OPEN/FRIENDLY/LIBERAL than America is. This means that logic would follow that Taiwan would be even MORE lonely and antisocial than the US is! So, given this logical conclusion, how could Taiwan possibly be a dating paradise for an average western guy?

Also, can you look up loneliness rates for Taiwan? Are many Taiwanese lonely? Is loneliness widespread in Taiwan? If so, how can it be the super open friendly dating paradise that people on the internet say it is?

I'm confused about the logic here. Anyone want to try to solve this logic problem?

Logical riddle one- the Taiwanese and Japanese judge the US by TV and Hollywood movies. They watch FRIENDS. Need I say more?
Second- Americans that visit/live in TW are foreigners there and are interested in intercultural experience and being social. Hence they are not average Americans.
Taiwanese and Japanese are hard to get to know but once the ice is broken, they can open up and act normal.

Many Anglos are hail fellow well met in social situations and pretend to be friendly, especially when in a foreign country but when you get to know them, they clam up and become cold and distant and want to be left alone except when talking about business or work, or when faced with a pretty girl.

[S_Parc]

Many Anglos are hail fellow well met in social situations and pretend to be friendly, especially when in a foreign country but when you get to know them, they clam up and become cold and distant and want to be left alone except when talking about business or work, or when faced with a pretty girl.

I want to add in another factor... a lot of Americans have a type of 'stunt' friendliness where in effect, they put on a temporary persona of being cool, open, etc. What this is is a business facade, as it's expected of people at conferences, lectures, etc. I guess Dale Carnegie has actually infiltrated the mainstream more than we'd expected

Thus, you'll see a lot of seemingly friendly and cordial interactions but then, a day or two later, these folks may never speak to each other again, for fear of divulging too much private information. I've seen this time and time again.

So I believe that the east Asians, who run into US ex-pats/travelers, tend to think that the 'stunt' friendliness is authentic. And while a person is out of his hometown circles, it may be temporarily genuine, however, for the most part, it's just an act to be perceived as being cool. In reality, most Americans never leave their high school clique, regardless of age or subsequent experiences. I'd argue that both 'Friends' and 'Seinfeld' are portrayals of high schoolers but in grown up bodies.

[Rock]

Rock and everyone:

What about this basic logic problem here?

Many of us here have established that the US is a lonely disconnected country and culture, from our personal experiences and through statistics (such as my report and Steve's). So if the US is very antisocial, and has a high rate of loneliness and mental illness as a result, then get this. Taiwanese and Japanese actually BELIEVE that Americans are more open, friendly, expressive and liberal about sex than they are! WTF!? No way! But it's true! That is how they perceive Americans. Now, here's the thing. If the US is an antisocial, lonely, disconnected country where it's hard to talk to strangers (esp women, but old folks are friendly and talk to anyone of course), and Taiwanese see the US as far friendlier than themselves, that would logically place Taiwanese as LESS OPEN/FRIENDLY/LIBERAL than America is. This means that logic would follow that Taiwan would be even MORE lonely and antisocial than the US is! So, given this logical conclusion, how could Taiwan possibly be a dating paradise for an average western guy?

Also, can you look up loneliness rates for Taiwan? Are many Taiwanese lonely? Is loneliness widespread in Taiwan? If so, how can it be the super open friendly dating paradise that people on the internet say it is?

I'm confused about the logic here. Anyone want to try to solve this logic problem?

You are taking a complex multi-variable problem and trying to force it into a linear 2 variable equation - not very big picturesque and rather naive - fast and loose logic. What makes a country a dating paradise? Being open and easy to talk to strangers? Not necessarily. For example, Argentina is warm, open and friendly. I think its pretty easy to talk to strangers there. But I don't consider it an easy place to find intimacy and sex, for a lot of guys at least. Now take Germany. Its a much colder and more serious place. I've never found it easy to engage strangers there and you can get lonely and depressed quickly if you don't have friends. But Germany is probably considered a sexual and/or dating paradise by some. They have easy access to affordable P4P in some areas. And some girls there dream of finding a black American bf so if you fit that profile, perhaps you can go there and easily become a serial dater.

You continually make 2 basic errors in evaluating an environment:

- Social openness (easy to approach strangers, eye contact, warm body language, etc) and sexual and/or dating potential are 2 separate issue. They probably have a positive correlation but its far from being 1 (more like 0.3-0.5). Thus, is quite possible for a country to be warm and friendly with easy to approach strangers but relatively hard to find romantic intimacy in (perhaps Argentina) or colder and strand-offish with great potential for intimacy and sex (perhaps Germany or Taiwan for some).

- The dating paradise question is a relative one, not absolute. Perhaps the US is a dating paradise for thuggish types or the guys who fall in top 20% in looks, height, money, etc. But not for regular nice guy types. Maybe Germany is a dating paradise black Americans. But not for regular white or Asian tourists. And Peru might be great for blond haired, blue eyed Nordic guys. Probably not so much for regular Latinos and blacks though. Generally, you need some sort of appeal or curiosity factor in a place to carve out a good dating life.

These points have been thrown-up before directly and indirectly. How many times do I need to write that "Happier Abroad" is not a one size fits all formula, its a custom made solution? It depends on who the guy is, what he looks like, and what he's looking for. Posters have gone so far as to recommend you try Thailand, China, or even some LatAm/Caribbean countries given your particular situation.

On the other hand, Taiwan is not particularly good for you because:

- you are not a 20 something western teacher/student or 30 something western career man

- you are not a fashionable or well-off or well connected/socially plugged-in ABC/local

- Taiwan's indirect and often cryptic communication style, and the cold body language/facial expressions exhibited by younger women throw you psychologically off in a big way

=> Taiwan is a dating hell for Winston Wu. He should have explored a new country, one with higher potential for his particular case.

Why didn't you go to China / Thailand / Colombia / DR / Argentina this time, esp. since your biz is picking-up nicely? Why do people make the same mistakes over and over but somehow expect the outcome to change?

[S_Parc]

- The dating paradise question is a relative one, not absolute. Perhaps the US is a dating paradise for thuggish types or the guys who fall in top 20% in looks, height, money, etc. But not for regular nice guy types.

I think the US is the epitome of the triangulation of 'Use, Abuse, and Being Abused'. Thus, deuchebag thugs are a perfect fit because of the fraction of AWs who enjoy the drama of being the victim.

For the Mr GQ, top 15-20% types, who're basically decent human beings, it's more that they'll attract those who'll use and/or abuse them. Think about it, the AW would like to tell/show others that she's with the successful 6'2" management consultant w/ Matt Damon or Jack Gyllenhaal's face but deep down inside, want the scariness of a serial killer or mobster and thus, will have exciting affairs on the side, while showing off her perfect life to others. Thus Mr GQ will be taken for a fool and still, would have been better off, learning another language and finding a wife in South America or Europe.

Hence, I conclude that for the most part, if one (whether you look like George Clooney or Danny DeVito [a/o have a degree from a top tier law/business school]) haven't found your AW match by the age of 22 (basically the time when most formal schooling and childhood wind down), don't bother. It'll save you a heck of a lot of headaches. Yes, mark your calendars.

[swincor]

Rock and everyone:

What about this basic logic problem here?

Many of us here have established that the US is a lonely disconnected country and culture, from our personal experiences and through statistics (such as my report and Steve's). So if the US is very antisocial, and has a high rate of loneliness and mental illness as a result, then get this. Taiwanese and Japanese actually BELIEVE that Americans are more open, friendly, expressive and liberal about sex than they are! WTF!? No way! But it's true! That is how they perceive Americans. Now, here's the thing. If the US is an antisocial, lonely, disconnected country where it's hard to talk to strangers (esp women, but old folks are friendly and talk to anyone of course), and Taiwanese see the US as far friendlier than themselves, that would logically place Taiwanese as LESS OPEN/FRIENDLY/LIBERAL than America is. This means that logic would follow that Taiwan would be even MORE lonely and antisocial than the US is! So, given this logical conclusion, how could Taiwan possibly be a dating paradise for an average western guy?

Also, can you look up loneliness rates for Taiwan? Are many Taiwanese lonely? Is loneliness widespread in Taiwan? If so, how can it be the super open friendly dating paradise that people on the internet say it is?

I'm confused about the logic here. Anyone want to try to solve this logic problem?

With all due offense and insult, Winston, knowing what you know of the place, you're pretty f***ing retarded to keep going back to Taiwan.

[well-informed]

Haha Rock i think you're being too nice to Winston which latina woman is going to be Winston's f**k-buddy.

He's a short fat asian bobble head that doesn't speak any spanish and has a narcassistic view of what he deserves in a woman. Add that to the fact that latina women DO NOT for the most part mate with pussies with no testerone in their body or psyche like Winston has.

Cross Argentina, Colombia and DR off his list. The women don't want to mate with an asian emasculated p***y like Winston. Especially a frugal one at that

[momopi]

Question for Rock and Momopi:
So basically, you two are saying that I am the ONLY guy you know that has problems finding a date in Taiwan or meeting women? Everyone else you know has no problem? I find that VERY VERY hard to believe.

If nobody had trouble dating women in TW, then I guess Taiwanese men wouldn't have imported ~400,000 foreign brides eh?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8179359.stm

"There are more than 400,000 foreign spouses, mostly women, in Taiwan, with about 20,000 new transnational marriages registered each year. "

[Winston]

Rock,
Here's another "get down to the root cause" question for you.

In Taiwan, when I say "excuse me miss" to hot/cute girls walking by, zero percent of them will stop and listen to me. But in Europe, about 50 percent will stop and listen to me, allowing me to ask a question, flirt with her, or ask for her number, etc. Heck, even in America, a fair percentage of women will stop if you say "excuse me".

Now, given the fact that I'm not considered super good looking either in Taiwan, or in Europe either, how do you explain this big difference of 0 percent vs. 50 percent? Remember, it can't be due to my looks only, since I'm not good looking to women of either region. Thus another factor must be involved. This is the logical implication. Do you agree? What is your explanation for this?

Isn't a logical explanation that some cultures are far more open than others, and some culture's women are far more open and relaxed with strangers than others are? Would you agree with that? Why or why not?

Questions to Momopi:

1. You talk about some cultures requiring "game" to get women. However, if zero percent of women stop when you try to talk to them or make eye contact, how can game apply? I mean, if they don't even look at you or listen to you to give you the CHANCE to USE your game, then why would game even be a factor? Isn't it all about looks and how open a culture is?

2. We all know that there are many couples made up of white western males and Taiwanese females. But have you ever heard of a couple with an ABC male and native Taiwanese female? I have never seen one. Have you? If not, why not? If you have, how long did it last, and were there compatibility issues?

The reason I ask this is because theoretically, there are two types of Taiwanese women. The first and main type is only interested in native Taiwanese men and hangs out in cliques of Taiwanese only friends. The second type is more open, broad minded, culturally curious, and speaks English well. They hang out in multicultural groups containing foreigners as well as other broad minded Taiwanese. This type primarily dates white foreign guys. Neither of these two types are seeking Asian Americans nor would they know what to do with one, since a Taiwanese face that acts like an American would be considered freakish in Taiwan, because he would not fit into either stereotype/category - local or foreign. Thus, it would be improbable for there to be couples consisting of ABC males and local Taiwanese females. ABC males, I think, usually marry ABC females or foreign females.

Is my theory correct?

Rock, your take on this?

[Winston]

Rock,
Btw, last week my female college friend here introduced me to a girl from mainland China. She seemed different, was more direct and relaxed. Not shy or hung up. It does seem that girls from China are different and easier to converse with. Definitely a good sign.

But why are Taiwanese people different from Chinese? Aren't they the same race and genes?

Btw Rock, you said you don't usually have anything to talk about with typical TW guys. Why is that? They seem so modest, kind, caring and considerate, don't they? Is it cause they keep asking the same questions and trying to learn English off you? Are they not intelligent conversationalists?

Taiwanese are very nice people inside I think. But the conversation with them doesn't flow as normally as with Westerners. It's hard to explain. There is a stiffness and narrowness in their vibe and flow that makes it hard to "ride on their wavelength". That's the best way I can put it in words.

One more thing. Rock, your statement seems to have a contradiction. You say that some cultures are open for meeting people but not for intimacy, while others are cold on the outside but food for intimacy. But the problem is, if the culture is cold and you aren't meeting anyone, then how can intimacy develop, if you can't even meet the girl? Isn't that contradictory? Can you explain this paradox?

[Fenix]

Winston, it doesn't matter if she is responsive. I remember this corner store I would go to every other day in Phoenix. This Mexican girl looked angry all of the time. I would go to this store all of the time and this one day she looked at my PayPal debit card and she asked me,"Do you sell things online?" I said no, I am a writer. We had small talk. There is a 75 cent fee when you purchase things with a debit or credit card and she said this in the cutest way ever and she smiled. Usually the women that look cold are the ones that you need to talk to. I thought this girl was going to be mean, but she was really sweet. I was going to ask her for her number because I lived like a steps away from the store. I never saw her again.

I bet you you would get more responses if you actually kept trying to talk instead of quitting. Some women are harder to crack than others. I know men like to have women that warm up fast, but sometimes you have to keep breaking the ice to get to some cold water. That's how some women are. Some will smile at you when they see you or they will look like they are angry. This is not the only example. I talked to other women in my life and they looked cold, but you just have to make an effort and talk to them. It will be worth it. Even if you get shot down, at least you were able to get some type of conversation with the girl.

[Rock]

Rock,
Here's another "get down to the root cause" question for you.

In Taiwan, when I say "excuse me miss" to hot/cute girls walking by, zero percent of them will stop and listen to me. But in Europe, about 50 percent will stop and listen to me, allowing me to ask a question, flirt with her, or ask for her number, etc. Heck, even in America, a fair percentage of women will stop if you say "excuse me".

Now, given the fact that I'm not considered super good looking either in Taiwan, or in Europe either, how do you explain this big difference of 0 percent vs. 50 percent? Remember, it can't be due to my looks only, since I'm not good looking to women of either region. Thus another factor must be involved. This is the logical implication. Do you agree? What is your explanation for this?

Isn't a logical explanation that some cultures are far more open than others, and some culture's women are far more open and relaxed with strangers than others are? Would you agree with that? Why or why not?

Questions to Momopi:

1. You talk about some cultures requiring "game" to get women. However, if zero percent of women stop when you try to talk to them or make eye contact, how can game apply? I mean, if they don't even look at you or listen to you to give you the CHANCE to USE your game, then why would game even be a factor? Isn't it all about looks and how open a culture is?

2. We all know that there are many couples made up of white western males and Taiwanese females. But have you ever heard of a couple with an ABC male and native Taiwanese female? I have never seen one. Have you? If not, why not? If you have, how long did it last, and were there compatibility issues?

The reason I ask this is because theoretically, there are two types of Taiwanese women. The first and main type is only interested in native Taiwanese men and hangs out in cliques of Taiwanese only friends. The second type is more open, broad minded, culturally curious, and speaks English well. They hang out in multicultural groups containing foreigners as well as other broad minded Taiwanese. This type primarily dates white foreign guys. Neither of these two types are seeking Asian Americans nor would they know what to do with one, since a Taiwanese face that acts like an American would be considered freakish in Taiwan, because he would not fit into either stereotype/category - local or foreign. Thus, it would be improbable for there to be couples consisting of ABC males and local Taiwanese females. ABC males, I think, usually marry ABC females or foreign females.

Is my theory correct?

Rock, your take on this?

1. Consider things from the girl's perspective. When you were in Europe/Russia, you appeared, IMO, to be a tame, boyish, and slightly effeminate Asian guy who was FOB. And those girls have seen some bad ass looking thugs among the locals and other European men making you look even more harmless. Also, European girls are much more self-assured and liberated anyway. Most are not going to be fearful or to leery of you in that context. So if you say, "excuse me maam", many will stop reflexively out of politeness.

As for Taiwan, we know a lot of young women there are more cautious and timid. If anything triggers something a bit 'off' or 'fishy' in their subconscious, they are probably going to walk right past you as if you don't exist. Now consider yourself. You have matured and lost your innocent boyish look. And I notice that when you talk to female strangers in Taiwan, you sometimes hesitate and stare at them, as if to gauge their response. Your voice also seems to lack confidence, as if you are doing something wrong. The reflexive thought process of these young girls to a stranger who looks, talks, and acts like you may be, "watch-out, he may be a pervert or someone with a mental problem, I gotta get-away".

Personally, if I wanted to say, "excuse me maam", to random young girls on the streets in Taipei:

- I could do it in such a way that well over 50% would stop OR

- I could do it in such a way that almost nobody would stop.

If I'm polite, confident, sincere sounding, and in some cases a bit persistent, many will stop. At one my gyms (formerly Tongling California), I used to notice the sales guys just outside approaching lots of females to give them a sales spiel for gym membership and personal training. Even though it was obvious they were selling something, they were able to get a fair number of female strangers to stop and hear them out.

Now if I act, sound, or look a bit weird in anyway, many people will just ignore me. As a foreigner, I might do slightly better in this scenario than a local because people would be more forgiving of my weirdness. But if it extended into creepy or perverted territory, the girls would almost all get away as quickly as possible.

2. Regarding your second set of questions, I think you are oversimplifying the scenarios. Many girls will straddle segments - can date locals, foreigners, and/or ABCs depending on circumstances and guy. I know of many Taiwan girls who have dated both locals and whites, or locals and ABCs, or whites and ABCs or all three. There are often preferences depending on the girl. But at the end of the day, its the individual that usually determines her decision. Of course, the most effective strategies and approaches may vary between groups. For example, whites can get away with breaking the social codmore easily than locals and probably ABCs. On the other hand, locals and ABCs will often be taken more seriously by the girl's family if a long term relationship leading to marriage is being considered.

[momopi]

Questions to Momopi:
1. You talk about some cultures requiring "game" to get women. However, if zero percent of women stop when you try to talk to them or make eye contact, how can game apply? I mean, if they don't even look at you or listen to you to give you the CHANCE to USE your game, then why would game even be a factor? Isn't it all about looks and how open a culture is?
2. We all know that there are many couples made up of white western males and Taiwanese females. But have you ever heard of a couple with an ABC male and native Taiwanese female? I have never seen one. Have you? If not, why not? If you have, how long did it last, and were there compatibility issues?
The reason I ask this is because theoretically, there are two types of Taiwanese women. The first and main type is only interested in native Taiwanese men and hangs out in cliques of Taiwanese only friends. The second type is more open, broad minded, culturally curious, and speaks English well. They hang out in multicultural groups containing foreigners as well as other broad minded Taiwanese. This type primarily dates white foreign guys. Neither of these two types are seeking Asian Americans nor would they know what to do with one, since a Taiwanese face that acts like an American would be considered freakish in Taiwan, because he would not fit into either stereotype/category - local or foreign. Thus, it would be improbable for there to be couples consisting of ABC males and local Taiwanese females. ABC males, I think, usually marry ABC females or foreign females.
Is my theory correct?
Rock, your take on this?

1. If the person has game, then the girls may respond favorably. If you have no game, then the girls may have little to no interest in you. Game is not universal, a person can be successful in one place and be ignored in another.
If you went to a mall in Manila and can easily chat up the girls and get their phone #'s, while another person tries the same and get rejected, then it can be said that you have game and the other bloke doesn't.

2. I actually don't have many 2nd gen ABC friends, so you might be asking the wrong person. Most of my Chinese/Taiwanese/Asian friends are 1.5 gen & moved here when they were in elementary school and continued to attend Chinese/Korean/Japanese language school on weekends. There's some inter-Asian couples, and some who went back to TW or Japan to get married. I came close to becoming one of them back in 2008 until my ex decided that she didn't want to move to the US, and i didn't want to move back to TW.

I've also observed several instances where the 1.5 gen Chinese/Taiwanese-American girl moved back to TW to marry a native Taiwanese husband. In those cases the husband's family tends to be "well to do". There's one recent case where the 1.5 gen Taiwanese-American bride who married a native Taiwanese husband, and her husband moved to the US, and I noted that his family background was relatively poor in comparison. The wife is pregnant, the husband is unemployed, and I'm trying very hard to find him a job that pays more than FOB wages. >_<

[Rock]

Rock,
Btw, last week my female college friend here introduced me to a girl from mainland China. She seemed different, was more direct and relaxed. Not shy or hung up. It does seem that girls from China are different and easier to converse with. Definitely a good sign.

But why are Taiwanese people different from Chinese? Aren't they the same race and genes?

Btw Rock, you said you don't usually have anything to talk about with typical TW guys. Why is that? They seem so modest, kind, caring and considerate, don't they? Is it cause they keep asking the same questions and trying to learn English off you? Are they not intelligent conversationalists?

Taiwanese are very nice people inside I think. But the conversation with them doesn't flow as normally as with Westerners. It's hard to explain. There is a stiffness and narrowness in their vibe and flow that makes it hard to "ride on their wavelength". That's the best way I can put it in words.

One more thing. Rock, your statement seems to have a contradiction. You say that some cultures are open for meeting people but not for intimacy, while others are cold on the outside but food for intimacy. But the problem is, if the culture is cold and you aren't meeting anyone, then how can intimacy develop, if you can't even meet the girl? Isn't that contradictory? Can you explain this paradox?

Its not impossible to meet people in colder cultures, just more challenging. You gotta put-in more work and take things more slowly. For example, I've been told by some Korean hands that many S. Koreans are very cold but that once you secure a friendship or relationship, it tends to be very solid and long lasting. My Swedish friend told me a similar thing about Sweden.

[momopi]

Oh, I almost forgot, Taiwan schools are now open to mainland Chinese students.

http://chronicle.com/article/Taiwan-Ope ... ts/128418/