Time to present my tale of constant rejection among American females...coming from a male feminist whom most would consider to be "decent-looking," and decently-dressed. (You can see my MySpace page photos at http://myspace.com/discopro )
To begin this story, I'll first share with you the text of my online personal ad narrative:
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Settling into my latest job as a customer service rep for an insurance company. I'm very content with having my own living space in the city, and love eating organic foods and enjoying natural health. Have thought deeply about what my wants and needs are in a relationship, and about my unique things to offer. I like dance-pop music, cruising, dancing, computers, reading interesting articles, walking for an hour at Lake Hefner, and thinking. Am honest, down-to-earth, sensitive, sweet, creative. Am an individualist and feminist, and just enjoy being myself.
Searching for that independent, self-assured sweetheart -- a woman who isn't afraid to live her life for *her*. Must be confident, intelligent, candid, and attractive. Should share my individualistic relationship values and my passion for dance-pop music!
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Next, I'll show a short "brainstorming" tidbit I wrote awhile back. When occasionally meeting a local woman online, and after we've exchanged a few "icebreaker" e-mails, I often share this piece with her:
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Here's a fun topic to ponder: What's so great about having a relationship with you? In what unique ways can someone enjoy a relationship with *you*, which they might not be able to enjoy with most other people? What makes you so special (i.e., different in a positive way) for a person to be in love with?
As for me...
She would be able to live for *her* and not get chastised for it (as long as she doesn't lie to me or cheat, or keep secrets from me). She would enjoy positive encouragement to think for herself -- to question anything and everything in her own unique way -- wherever it leads. She would *never* be expected to "change" her nature or her needs.
She wouldn't have to worry about going through pregnancy, childbirth, or raising little rascals, nor would she need any kind of birth control. (I've already had a vasectomy and don't have any kids.)
She'd never be expected to cook for me, or to perform all of the housework by herself. We'd either dine out or fix ourselves simple meals (or cook a meal together), and we'd *both* clean our house or apartment occasionally. Also, I have a tendency *not* to slop around or make messes, and almost always clean up after myself.
She wouldn't have to worry about her weight (as long as she doesn't become very obese, such as >300 lbs), since I adore the pleasantly-plump figure and I care significantly more about a cute face than a "perfect" body. She could relax and eat as much as she wants, and I'd be lying with her on the couch feeding & kissing her!
And while she's lying on that couch, she'd never have to go through the trouble of painting her fingernails or toenails, because I would always do it for her as often as she wants -- kissing each finger and toe as I go!
She practically never would be bombarded with body odor from me, because my organic lifestyle produces very little B.O. or bad breath. She could hang out and cuddle with me in peace without aromatic annoyance.
She would experience the greatest dance-pop, hard & soft rock, and country-pop music of the '70s, '80s, '90s, & '00s with my collection of over 400 albums containing more than 5,000 songs, along with great sound systems in my living room and car. Even when we're making love!
Finally, she'd always have a warm set of arms to fall into when she's feeling anxious, frustrated, or hurt. She could discuss difficult issues with me in the safest setting possible: sitting down together holding hands and partially embracing each other, while never being criticized or judged during the dialogue.
There you are....
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(I'd also like to mention that I work at a large call center where 60 percent of the employees are women, and when appropriate, I'll casually mention to my co-workers that I'm single and looking. I also enjoy frequenting local dance clubs every few weeks that play disco and '80s/'90s pop -- where two-thirds of the patrons are usually women -- and spend most of my time on the dancefloor without drinking alcohol.)
So anyway at this point, you might be thinking that a guy like me "probably has it made" among American women, right?
Well, it has now been 176 months since my last girlfriend. How could this happen?
First I'll briefly describe the three obvious reasons that come to mind. Then, we'll contemplate the less apparent (but just as significant) ones.
1. I'm not a Christian. About 85% of Americans are Christian, and want a lover who shares in their religious passions.
2. I don't want children. About 2/3 of American women want to raise kids (or already have them).
3. I don't earn $50,000 or more in annual income. About half of American women "require" this in a potential mate.
So with the three most obvious reasons covered, I'd like to discuss the less-evident problems.
Most women I've encountered within my "eligible age range" of 23 to 46 seem to be very insecure, cliquish, and are searching for an ideal persona of a man that I refer to as the All-American Mainstream Stud. I don't fully understand this persona, but it might relate to movie characters and TV personalities they see. My guess is that an All-American Mainstream Stud (AAMS) is brawny with a big macho attitude; has a very well-paying job; is a Christian; wants kids; is a fan of alternative rock, hip-hop, or traditional country music (and not dance-pop or soft rock); hardly ever consumes organic or real, natural food; and dines out all the time. The AAMS also is quite unintellectual and rarely thinks outside the box.
While I'm certainly no pushover (and am usually quite assertive), the AAMS ideal that most women here seem to seek out is about as far from me as you can get. Anyone outside of the AAMS ideal is considered "weird" to some degree. And lots of American women apparently fear any man who is the least bit "weird," because he just might turn out to be a rapist, murderer, or child molester! Oh no...run for your lives!!! (Never mind the fact that most of these crooks actually turn out to be the typical AAMS's.)
American women also have a huge addiction to television, which I practically never watch. TV portrays an extremely inaccurate perception of the world, convinces people that they "need" stuff that they really don't, and loads women (and men) up with very unrealistic expectations about life. In short, TV makes a person sick, fat, broke, and stupid. And since I'm not an AAMS, women can't project those unrealistic expectations onto me.
After frequenting American dance clubs for many years, I've discovered that single women (who aren't with a date) do not go there to meet men. They're there simply to hang out with their established clique. I, on the other hand, attend not only to enjoy dancing to the music, but to bond with others and to meet an interested single gal if I'm lucky. Unfortunately, though, the routine is always the same: in the 2-3 hour timespan, an average of just two women will dance with me for one song only. I'll try to get acquainted with her during those few minutes by asking, "What's your name? Where are you from? What do you do for a living?" At the conclusion of the song, she politely says, "Thank you," returns to her clique, and rarely pays attention to me again.
And during one-third of my discotheque outings, I'm the invisible man the entire time I'm there. It's as if it wouldn't have mattered at all socially whether I had patronized the place that evening or not. I also dislike the fact that most American clubgoers require at least a few drinks of alcohol before they're psychologically able to hit the dancefloor (since I don't drink).
Nearly two years ago, I joined a local Unitarian Universalist (UU) church (which is the most liberal church in my city), with the intention of meeting people -- particularly younger adults (and especially women). I was seeking anyone who would share my interests, and who might actually wish to hang out with me away from church in their spare time. But alas, the women were either married or had a boyfriend, were preparing to move away, were still in college, weren't "looking," didn't show any interest, or weren't physically attractive at all.
Well anyway, I just wanted to rant a little about my experiences (or lack thereof) with American women, and how my personal characteristics are so dissonant with theirs. Time to look elsewhere in the world!
Stay tuned for more posts about my past American social life, how I dealt with it along the way, and how within the last year, I've finally crossed the line.
Why a male feminist like me can't find an American girlfrien
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DiscoPro_Joe
- Freshman Poster
- Posts: 120
- Joined: March 12th, 2008, 10:29 pm
- Location: Chongqing, China
- Contact:
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Hey, I can really relate to what you are saying! Your right, a lot of times women go to clubs simply to "hang out" with their girlfriends and drink alcohol! Not only that but the music in clubs is so loud you can hardly have a conversation with someone. People in America are very clickish and basically stick with their friends when they are out. Like Winston says, in America going out alone means staying alone!
Another thing is a lot of women in America are addicted to tv! I don't watch much tv, I certainly do not watch reality tv shows as they do not interest me. I also do not drink alcohol, which to most young single people in America is considered strange. They say things like. "what you don't drink?" Like it's asssumed everyone in America drinks alcohol. I was never into the "bar scene" like most single Americans are.
Another thing is a lot of women in America are addicted to tv! I don't watch much tv, I certainly do not watch reality tv shows as they do not interest me. I also do not drink alcohol, which to most young single people in America is considered strange. They say things like. "what you don't drink?" Like it's asssumed everyone in America drinks alcohol. I was never into the "bar scene" like most single Americans are.
Same problem here. Even when I meet girls in America who have a lot in common with me, e.g. New Age groups, they still make excuses if I ask them out.
I hate how when I have a conversation with a woman there, it's always about the weather or some polite stuff, and then she says "it was nice meeting you" and then you never see her again.
What is a guy who needs sex there supposed to do?
Plus, in the office environment that you describe, so what if most of the employees in the call center are girls?
If you ask them out, you risk them telling the manager and get in trouble for sexual harassment. So you have to make friends with them first to gauge their interest.
Plus it's taboo in the states to date coworkers since most don't like to mix business with pleasure.
I hate how when I have a conversation with a woman there, it's always about the weather or some polite stuff, and then she says "it was nice meeting you" and then you never see her again.
What is a guy who needs sex there supposed to do?
Plus, in the office environment that you describe, so what if most of the employees in the call center are girls?
If you ask them out, you risk them telling the manager and get in trouble for sexual harassment. So you have to make friends with them first to gauge their interest.
Plus it's taboo in the states to date coworkers since most don't like to mix business with pleasure.
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Join my Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!
"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
Joe, if that's really your picture on your myspace page, you should not have a problem getting a girlfriend--unless women think you're gay.
Obviously this feminism stuff is not working for you. You have willingly given away so much of your power to women without getting anything back from them in return. You don't need to be a feminist to treat women with kindness.
I read the piece of writing that you said you send them, and I think it turns women off because it sounds too desperate. American women are turned off by desperation (although I know it's hard to keep a poker face in front of a juicy steak when you're starving). Also, try not to ask women so many deep, probing questions in the beginning. Little icebreaker questions are fine, but don't make them feel like they're applying to college. It might scare them away and you seem to not be very picky, so what does it matter whether you ask them these questions or not?
You could try meeting women at the gym, in a martial arts class, a cooking class, art class, or a yoga class (if you can seem non-gay).
You've obviously got some talents Joe, but try not to show the full extent of your gentle side too soon.
--Jackal
Obviously this feminism stuff is not working for you. You have willingly given away so much of your power to women without getting anything back from them in return. You don't need to be a feminist to treat women with kindness.
I read the piece of writing that you said you send them, and I think it turns women off because it sounds too desperate. American women are turned off by desperation (although I know it's hard to keep a poker face in front of a juicy steak when you're starving). Also, try not to ask women so many deep, probing questions in the beginning. Little icebreaker questions are fine, but don't make them feel like they're applying to college. It might scare them away and you seem to not be very picky, so what does it matter whether you ask them these questions or not?
You could try meeting women at the gym, in a martial arts class, a cooking class, art class, or a yoga class (if you can seem non-gay).
You've obviously got some talents Joe, but try not to show the full extent of your gentle side too soon.
--Jackal
Agreed. I tried to be a male feminist before too, thinking that women would bond with me, invite me into their camp, etc. but it never happened.
The dating gurus say you should sound exciting and challenging to them, not test them with anything too deep.
Of course, here in the Philippines I can just be myself and not need to do any of that.
The dating gurus say you should sound exciting and challenging to them, not test them with anything too deep.
Of course, here in the Philippines I can just be myself and not need to do any of that.
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and SE Asia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!
Join my Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!
"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
Join my Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!
"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
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momopi
- Elite Upper Class Poster
- Posts: 4898
- Joined: August 31st, 2007, 9:44 pm
- Location: Orange County, California
Hi Joe,
Your myspace profile said you're 30, and your post said you haven't had a GF for 176 months, or since you were in High School??
I'll join the group here and put in my $0.02. Please bear in mind that I spent most of my life in Southern California (Orange County) and my experiences may differ from your area.
I looked at your photos on myspace. The majority of girls I know don't really like guys in dress shirt and dress pants. They think it's too stuffy and reminds them of work. There are exceptions -- I had a Viet GF who likes guys in dark blue slacks and white dress shirts, but they're in the minority.
I'd recommend going for a more casual look, try shops like Hollister, A&F, Gap, etc. If you don't mind spending a little more $, try boutique shops like this one:
http://www.satisfymysoul.net/index.cfm? ... tegoryid=1
Find a boutique shop with a girl working there who has good fashion sense, and willing to spend couple hours helping you. This means, she brings you 5 shirts to try on, then tells you that only 1 looks OK and shirt #3's shoulders is too wide, etc. Or, make some friends who are good at fashion and bring them along as a consultant.
Slip-on shoes with fancy graphic designs are very popular right now, but most don't have good support for the arch of your foot. Regular or plain white tennis shoes with padding inserts work great for me.
Slimming down has advantages and downs. Most designer jeans are 28-34 waist and 34 length, a few are offered at 36 waist. You can fit in the pants better, but many women prefer guys with a little more meat on their bones.
Regarding your "profile", I think it's too girlish. Women are insecure enough as is, they don't want to date a guy who'd make a better women than them. Being an imperfect men and giving women a challenge as they attempt to "improve" you often works better. If you try to please a women all the time, they'd look down on you.
I don't like online dating sites and clubs. Most dating sites have a huge lopsided male to female ratio, the math doesn't really work for me. If you have to find girls online, try social networking ones instead.
If you want to go clubbing, bring a friend. It's much easier to break into cliques if you have a wingman or wing-women. Make some female friends that you don't intend to date or sleep with, ask them to help you shop and expand your social circle.
People tend to be more relaxed when they're on vacation. The response you get from girls in a club at Las Vegas may be more favorable than one in your local town. I don't really like the club scene because the music gives me a headache, it's hard to talk over the loud noise, and I can't really dance to that pop stuff. But if you like it, more power to you.
At your age, you're not too old to take classes at your local college and date college girls. Many college girls are away from home for the first time, and open to exploring their newfound freedom and sexuality.
Some Churches have great young adult social programs, but they're usually geared toward 18-25 and offered at those mega churches. Christian girls often attend Christian colleges to find a husband. If you go to the Philippines, most likely the girls you meet north of Mindanao are Catholics. If you go to Thailand, they're Theravada Buddhists.
Your myspace profile said you're 30, and your post said you haven't had a GF for 176 months, or since you were in High School??
I'll join the group here and put in my $0.02. Please bear in mind that I spent most of my life in Southern California (Orange County) and my experiences may differ from your area.
I looked at your photos on myspace. The majority of girls I know don't really like guys in dress shirt and dress pants. They think it's too stuffy and reminds them of work. There are exceptions -- I had a Viet GF who likes guys in dark blue slacks and white dress shirts, but they're in the minority.
I'd recommend going for a more casual look, try shops like Hollister, A&F, Gap, etc. If you don't mind spending a little more $, try boutique shops like this one:
http://www.satisfymysoul.net/index.cfm? ... tegoryid=1
Find a boutique shop with a girl working there who has good fashion sense, and willing to spend couple hours helping you. This means, she brings you 5 shirts to try on, then tells you that only 1 looks OK and shirt #3's shoulders is too wide, etc. Or, make some friends who are good at fashion and bring them along as a consultant.
Slip-on shoes with fancy graphic designs are very popular right now, but most don't have good support for the arch of your foot. Regular or plain white tennis shoes with padding inserts work great for me.
Slimming down has advantages and downs. Most designer jeans are 28-34 waist and 34 length, a few are offered at 36 waist. You can fit in the pants better, but many women prefer guys with a little more meat on their bones.
Regarding your "profile", I think it's too girlish. Women are insecure enough as is, they don't want to date a guy who'd make a better women than them. Being an imperfect men and giving women a challenge as they attempt to "improve" you often works better. If you try to please a women all the time, they'd look down on you.
I don't like online dating sites and clubs. Most dating sites have a huge lopsided male to female ratio, the math doesn't really work for me. If you have to find girls online, try social networking ones instead.
If you want to go clubbing, bring a friend. It's much easier to break into cliques if you have a wingman or wing-women. Make some female friends that you don't intend to date or sleep with, ask them to help you shop and expand your social circle.
People tend to be more relaxed when they're on vacation. The response you get from girls in a club at Las Vegas may be more favorable than one in your local town. I don't really like the club scene because the music gives me a headache, it's hard to talk over the loud noise, and I can't really dance to that pop stuff. But if you like it, more power to you.
At your age, you're not too old to take classes at your local college and date college girls. Many college girls are away from home for the first time, and open to exploring their newfound freedom and sexuality.
Some Churches have great young adult social programs, but they're usually geared toward 18-25 and offered at those mega churches. Christian girls often attend Christian colleges to find a husband. If you go to the Philippines, most likely the girls you meet north of Mindanao are Catholics. If you go to Thailand, they're Theravada Buddhists.
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kristy_571
- Freshman Poster
- Posts: 165
- Joined: March 17th, 2008, 8:59 am
- Location: California, USA
DiscoPro_Joe sounds like a total sweetheart. I just don't like a man calling himself a feminist. I just do not like that word-it makes it sound like a feminist is a woman or a man that think women are better than men, or are 100% equal.
As to not wanting children... there are some women that would not want kids. And if you do not make $50,000+ a year, if you are happy-great. If not, go back to college. It seems like he is very sensitive, which is sweet. But would I go for him normally... I don't know. I'd really have to get to know his personality better. And wanting to paint my toenails? Nah. I'd rather go to the salon-I hate having my feet kissed. Yuck. But anyhoo... he still sounds very nice. I'm gonna add him as a friend on my space.
As to not wanting children... there are some women that would not want kids. And if you do not make $50,000+ a year, if you are happy-great. If not, go back to college. It seems like he is very sensitive, which is sweet. But would I go for him normally... I don't know. I'd really have to get to know his personality better. And wanting to paint my toenails? Nah. I'd rather go to the salon-I hate having my feet kissed. Yuck. But anyhoo... he still sounds very nice. I'm gonna add him as a friend on my space.
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kristy_571
- Freshman Poster
- Posts: 165
- Joined: March 17th, 2008, 8:59 am
- Location: California, USA
roflchanta76 wrote:I know this might sound messed up but has anyone tried taking a Pick up boot camp?
Most girls-even the super hot ones, would prefer a guy to be himself. Not all girls will like his personality, just like all guys would not go for Angelina Jolie. But instead of something lame like a "Pick up" boot camp, just being yourself is far better. I personally hate pick up lines, and when a guy uses one on me, I bolt. If he just says "Hi", and smiles, that is enough.
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DiscoPro_Joe
- Freshman Poster
- Posts: 120
- Joined: March 12th, 2008, 10:29 pm
- Location: Chongqing, China
- Contact:
I appreciate the feedback and well-meaning advice from everyone. (Although -- no offense -- much of it I personally just don't find to be too useful or very fitting for who I am as a person.)
Within the next week, my next lengthy topic post with original material will describe the three inferior paths that 99% of misfits in America seem to take, and how I'm embarking on a different route that only 0.1% of Americans each year possess the courage to trek.
Well, thanks for adding this topic to your e-mail list, Winston.
And thanks for the kudos, Kristy! We'll have to chat a little on MySpace.
Within the next week, my next lengthy topic post with original material will describe the three inferior paths that 99% of misfits in America seem to take, and how I'm embarking on a different route that only 0.1% of Americans each year possess the courage to trek.
Well, thanks for adding this topic to your e-mail list, Winston.
And thanks for the kudos, Kristy! We'll have to chat a little on MySpace.
Hi Joe,momopi wrote:
I'll join the group here and put in my $0.02. Please bear in mind that I spent most of my life in Southern California (Orange County) and my experiences may differ from your area.
I looked at your photos on myspace. The majority of girls I know don't really like guys in dress shirt and dress pants. They think it's too stuffy and reminds them of work. There are exceptions -- I had a Viet GF who likes guys in dark blue slacks and white dress shirts, but they're in the minority.
I'd recommend going for a more casual look, try shops like Hollister, A&F, Gap, etc. If you don't mind spending a little more $, try boutique shops like this one:
http://www.satisfymysoul.net/index.cfm? ... tegoryid=1
It definitley depends on the culture of your region what kinds of clothes you should wear. I think a shirt that looks like dress shirt can be fine, but I would recommend one with thicker fabric like a denim shirt for more casual purposes (like Bruce Willis puts on in the motel in "Pulp Fiction" and his girlfriend exclaims, "That looks nice"). The thicker fabric will fill out your frame a little more. Stay away from shirts that have thin fabric, are shiny, are too tight, or have plaids or patterns--these will tend to make a thin guy like you look gay (assuming you're not wearing something over them).
Re: Why a male feminist like me can't find an American girlf
Joe
First I'd like to say that you're definitely not alone among men who have a difficult time meeting women. What pop culture and society
fails to teach us is that it can be one of the most challenging skills you can take up.
Something I need to tell you is that Winston Wu is right about women in America being more uptight with their opinions and views
of the "mating game" and all that versus women overseas; therefore it can be harder to approach American women. But, buddy, if
you're having NO success at all, you can't just blame the outside world, you need to look at yourself and figure out what you're doing wrong. I don't care WHERE you are, if you don't know how to make a woman ATTRACTED you're not going to have any success. I'm writing this right now because I'm afraid you're going to want to jump off a cliff once you're in Europe and you're like "WTF? why are women still not talking to me?!" if somebody doesn't point some things out to you. But, I'm also writing this for anyone else on the forum who wants to read this.... because I feel like there are people here on a boat I used to be on, and who need help, fast.
This post might offend you because I'm going to pick it apart and share with you the stuff i've learned after spending the last couple of years learning the "singles game" so to speak... something you need to remember is that meeting and attracting women is a skill and there's no shame in learning a new one, so don't beat yourself up about making mistakes OR if women reject you, because I know personally if you know specifically what you're doing wrong it's so much easier to correct things, so let's get started...
-Your personal ad / response email.
OK, I think your initial personal ad is OK but too generic. You might get some bites with that because you're being pretty honest and you know what you want and what you're looking for... and these are positive traits, but before I move to the rest, I think you need to understand what makes women attracted on deep levels, and I'm gonna share this in a nutshell ....(save this text to a pdf file or something, this stuff is out of the Mystery Method book by Eric Malkovich, and if you don't know these concepts yet...then you must SAVE this next paragraph)
Girls look for several big personality traits which anyone can develop: confidence and leadership (a leader of men in any way, you make your own rules, it could be in a corporate setting, with friends, anything)... pre selection by other women (girls like you and this is shown by girls, even if they're just normal friends, who hang around and appreciate you)... that you protect the people you love and care about (would you beat the crap out of somebody who dared touch your family? trust me girls like this) next you're not afraid to express your emotions which is the same idea... you're in control of your reactions but you don't bottle things up if an emotion is necessary... finally a sassy sense of humor REALLY helps... a commanding one.. if you can get groups of people to laugh with you about your stories or anecdotes or whatever you will not be single for long... girls want that energy because who DOESN'T?
Why am I saying all this? because your e-mail conveys none of these characteristics and you're not showing high enough value for yourself.
So, first off buddy, don't break ice over e-mails, if you date women online get them on the phone AS SOON as POSSIBLE or else it sends the message you are not very forthright.
But the first part of the e-mail is, guess what? perfect! You are making them qualify themselves to you. Just chop out the word "love" and make it seem a little less relationship intensive...
But that long ass second part.. oh god.. don't ever use that again... it reads like this: "Boyfriend for sale. Here all my inner most details because clearly you have more value than I do and I'm even willing to share this stuff with strangers on CraigsList. Great for p***y whipping. No cost. Call 555..." Sorry but this is true, and if it weren't true you would be having more success which you're not. You can be all those things once you're in a relationship, but if you're writing an ad or email, sticking all that stuff on there sounds desperate. You come off as creepy by sending all that to someone you don't know, even though you're not actually a creepy person. Man all I can say is take women off their pedestal... you have no reason to send a big ass e-mail about yourself to anybody, not a job... not a girl... no strangers.
Moving on...
-Appearance
Dude you look fine so don't stress about that. Looks matter very little believe it or not. But what i'd say is watch what you wear at clubs. If it's a formal club get a nice jacket / blazer and put it on over a designer shirt. I usually go out with some unique designer brand thing with something interesting on it (chinese characters or whatever) over a dress jacket. For non-formal clubs wear something funky to get attention, "cut loose" a little... hell you're into disco... be outrageous because 1: it gets attention, 2: it shows you don't really give a f**k because you're confident and a leader that is unaffected by what others think... and guess what? this makes women hot even if it's counter-intuitive and the meatheads try to insult you (just let them insult you if it ever happens, because by shrugging off other peoples' opinions about you, you are building value and getting attention by women, no joke)
-Excuses
Religion: Find a different venue and look for some hookah lounge with eastern philosophy students and belly dancers or something if you keep getting conservative Christian girls... just go somewhere else man, the USA is really diverse
No kids: Don't talk about kids, at all, unless you're actually in a relationship
Not enough money: This is ONLY a factor with gold-diggers, otherwise you can be a bum and know how to make a woman want you.
American mainstream stud: Sounds like you need a venue change again. If a girl is just after security then that's what they might want... a big, strong meathead to give them a house, kids, and food. OK, what do YOU want? an adventeruous girl or something? then go to a more arty side of town or something... get over this stereotype.. I know VERY few girls who want the thing you describe. So, let them and pay no attention to them. I don't.
Television: I agree with all of your points about TV, people watch too much, but TV is never going to re-write human psychology about the things that turn women on.
Single women don't go to clubs to date: This is, no offense, bullshit. That's why they're there, but they get hit on all night. The question is how do you make yourself stand apart? you see the reason they are single, even after having 1,000 guys try to get in their pants on a nightly basis, is that nobody has impressed the attractive woman because all those sausages do the same things you do, and feel just as hopeless. They say:
"What's your name? Where are you from? What do you do for a living?"
And then they politely shrug you off and return to the song, in their mind thinking "Oh, god, not another one"
So dude, when I read your paragraph where you talk about saying those things, I started yelling out loud at my computer screen and that's why I decided I had to write this long ass reply to your situation. I see SO many people making this same mistake at clubs. It's NOT THE GIRLS FAULT and I BET you if you go to a club in ANY classy place outside the U.S. and repeat the same routines your only chance of getting any girls attention is if they're simply intrigued by the fact you're American.
A girl, any girl, wants to be swept off their feet a little bit. What you're doing with those lines is saying the same exact stuff they have heard 400 times that night. Repeat after me: Meeting a girl is not a job interview. You don't care about their status, where they're from, or their career, unless you're a douchebag who really adds importance to those petty things, which you're not. So wtf are you doing?
Here's what you do instead. If you can't ask them any questions about themselves, what can you do to stand out from ALL the other sausages in the club and actually get a phone number from the cutest girl in the room? Just don't ask boring questions. Here's a better idea for a question: "Hey: Do you think myspace destroys peoples socials lives? ... (pause)... I'm asking because I swear, nobody leaves their houses anymore..." Why ask this? because you're starting a real conversation. Like Chris Rock says, going in like "Hi what do you like to do?" is like saying "Hi want some dick?". But if you engage them with some kind of really interesting conversation, then you pull them in deeper by telling them your observations about themselves, playing little party games with them to get them having fun, talking about stuff that makes girls interested (relationships, the supernatural, a bit of gossip) and continually flirting and being fun. Soon, they will soon be asking YOU those dumb questions, and you can be like "Girl, this isn't a job interview, you can learn about me after you get to know me some more... Come with me to the balcony (or wherever) if you wanna chat more. it's too noisy in here..." and by the end of the night you could have a phone number, a date, or a rejection with the good feeling that you were playing your cards right for once and trying new things.... trust me you'll see improvements IMMEDIATELY using this stuff.
I definitely didn't write all this because I don't care, but because I saw you making these really bad mistakes which it's taken me some time to get over in the club environments (and I still make a lot of mistakes). I'd suggest doing a google on "The Mystery Method" and also looking into advice by Neil Strauss / David DeAngelo and other attraction writers... It's all theory and their writing has some BS mixed in with a lot of concepts that REALLY do work, but any guy can learn just by going out into the club scene and paying special attention to what works, and what does not.
If you need more advice please contact me on myspace at myspace.com/shirisu and keep me up to date how things go before doing anything drastic and finding hookers in the Phillipines or something... just get some of this social stuff down better and you might not even have to leave the country to find some dates...
Otherwise do like the romans do and train with a weighted sword, then take that hard experience abroad where it's easier to meet women, and you'll be a pimp.
Sincerely,
Cyrus K
First I'd like to say that you're definitely not alone among men who have a difficult time meeting women. What pop culture and society
fails to teach us is that it can be one of the most challenging skills you can take up.
Something I need to tell you is that Winston Wu is right about women in America being more uptight with their opinions and views
of the "mating game" and all that versus women overseas; therefore it can be harder to approach American women. But, buddy, if
you're having NO success at all, you can't just blame the outside world, you need to look at yourself and figure out what you're doing wrong. I don't care WHERE you are, if you don't know how to make a woman ATTRACTED you're not going to have any success. I'm writing this right now because I'm afraid you're going to want to jump off a cliff once you're in Europe and you're like "WTF? why are women still not talking to me?!" if somebody doesn't point some things out to you. But, I'm also writing this for anyone else on the forum who wants to read this.... because I feel like there are people here on a boat I used to be on, and who need help, fast.
This post might offend you because I'm going to pick it apart and share with you the stuff i've learned after spending the last couple of years learning the "singles game" so to speak... something you need to remember is that meeting and attracting women is a skill and there's no shame in learning a new one, so don't beat yourself up about making mistakes OR if women reject you, because I know personally if you know specifically what you're doing wrong it's so much easier to correct things, so let's get started...
-Your personal ad / response email.
OK, I think your initial personal ad is OK but too generic. You might get some bites with that because you're being pretty honest and you know what you want and what you're looking for... and these are positive traits, but before I move to the rest, I think you need to understand what makes women attracted on deep levels, and I'm gonna share this in a nutshell ....(save this text to a pdf file or something, this stuff is out of the Mystery Method book by Eric Malkovich, and if you don't know these concepts yet...then you must SAVE this next paragraph)
Girls look for several big personality traits which anyone can develop: confidence and leadership (a leader of men in any way, you make your own rules, it could be in a corporate setting, with friends, anything)... pre selection by other women (girls like you and this is shown by girls, even if they're just normal friends, who hang around and appreciate you)... that you protect the people you love and care about (would you beat the crap out of somebody who dared touch your family? trust me girls like this) next you're not afraid to express your emotions which is the same idea... you're in control of your reactions but you don't bottle things up if an emotion is necessary... finally a sassy sense of humor REALLY helps... a commanding one.. if you can get groups of people to laugh with you about your stories or anecdotes or whatever you will not be single for long... girls want that energy because who DOESN'T?
Why am I saying all this? because your e-mail conveys none of these characteristics and you're not showing high enough value for yourself.
So, first off buddy, don't break ice over e-mails, if you date women online get them on the phone AS SOON as POSSIBLE or else it sends the message you are not very forthright.
But the first part of the e-mail is, guess what? perfect! You are making them qualify themselves to you. Just chop out the word "love" and make it seem a little less relationship intensive...
But that long ass second part.. oh god.. don't ever use that again... it reads like this: "Boyfriend for sale. Here all my inner most details because clearly you have more value than I do and I'm even willing to share this stuff with strangers on CraigsList. Great for p***y whipping. No cost. Call 555..." Sorry but this is true, and if it weren't true you would be having more success which you're not. You can be all those things once you're in a relationship, but if you're writing an ad or email, sticking all that stuff on there sounds desperate. You come off as creepy by sending all that to someone you don't know, even though you're not actually a creepy person. Man all I can say is take women off their pedestal... you have no reason to send a big ass e-mail about yourself to anybody, not a job... not a girl... no strangers.
Moving on...
-Appearance
Dude you look fine so don't stress about that. Looks matter very little believe it or not. But what i'd say is watch what you wear at clubs. If it's a formal club get a nice jacket / blazer and put it on over a designer shirt. I usually go out with some unique designer brand thing with something interesting on it (chinese characters or whatever) over a dress jacket. For non-formal clubs wear something funky to get attention, "cut loose" a little... hell you're into disco... be outrageous because 1: it gets attention, 2: it shows you don't really give a f**k because you're confident and a leader that is unaffected by what others think... and guess what? this makes women hot even if it's counter-intuitive and the meatheads try to insult you (just let them insult you if it ever happens, because by shrugging off other peoples' opinions about you, you are building value and getting attention by women, no joke)
-Excuses
Religion: Find a different venue and look for some hookah lounge with eastern philosophy students and belly dancers or something if you keep getting conservative Christian girls... just go somewhere else man, the USA is really diverse
No kids: Don't talk about kids, at all, unless you're actually in a relationship
Not enough money: This is ONLY a factor with gold-diggers, otherwise you can be a bum and know how to make a woman want you.
American mainstream stud: Sounds like you need a venue change again. If a girl is just after security then that's what they might want... a big, strong meathead to give them a house, kids, and food. OK, what do YOU want? an adventeruous girl or something? then go to a more arty side of town or something... get over this stereotype.. I know VERY few girls who want the thing you describe. So, let them and pay no attention to them. I don't.
Television: I agree with all of your points about TV, people watch too much, but TV is never going to re-write human psychology about the things that turn women on.
Single women don't go to clubs to date: This is, no offense, bullshit. That's why they're there, but they get hit on all night. The question is how do you make yourself stand apart? you see the reason they are single, even after having 1,000 guys try to get in their pants on a nightly basis, is that nobody has impressed the attractive woman because all those sausages do the same things you do, and feel just as hopeless. They say:
"What's your name? Where are you from? What do you do for a living?"
And then they politely shrug you off and return to the song, in their mind thinking "Oh, god, not another one"
So dude, when I read your paragraph where you talk about saying those things, I started yelling out loud at my computer screen and that's why I decided I had to write this long ass reply to your situation. I see SO many people making this same mistake at clubs. It's NOT THE GIRLS FAULT and I BET you if you go to a club in ANY classy place outside the U.S. and repeat the same routines your only chance of getting any girls attention is if they're simply intrigued by the fact you're American.
A girl, any girl, wants to be swept off their feet a little bit. What you're doing with those lines is saying the same exact stuff they have heard 400 times that night. Repeat after me: Meeting a girl is not a job interview. You don't care about their status, where they're from, or their career, unless you're a douchebag who really adds importance to those petty things, which you're not. So wtf are you doing?
Here's what you do instead. If you can't ask them any questions about themselves, what can you do to stand out from ALL the other sausages in the club and actually get a phone number from the cutest girl in the room? Just don't ask boring questions. Here's a better idea for a question: "Hey: Do you think myspace destroys peoples socials lives? ... (pause)... I'm asking because I swear, nobody leaves their houses anymore..." Why ask this? because you're starting a real conversation. Like Chris Rock says, going in like "Hi what do you like to do?" is like saying "Hi want some dick?". But if you engage them with some kind of really interesting conversation, then you pull them in deeper by telling them your observations about themselves, playing little party games with them to get them having fun, talking about stuff that makes girls interested (relationships, the supernatural, a bit of gossip) and continually flirting and being fun. Soon, they will soon be asking YOU those dumb questions, and you can be like "Girl, this isn't a job interview, you can learn about me after you get to know me some more... Come with me to the balcony (or wherever) if you wanna chat more. it's too noisy in here..." and by the end of the night you could have a phone number, a date, or a rejection with the good feeling that you were playing your cards right for once and trying new things.... trust me you'll see improvements IMMEDIATELY using this stuff.
I definitely didn't write all this because I don't care, but because I saw you making these really bad mistakes which it's taken me some time to get over in the club environments (and I still make a lot of mistakes). I'd suggest doing a google on "The Mystery Method" and also looking into advice by Neil Strauss / David DeAngelo and other attraction writers... It's all theory and their writing has some BS mixed in with a lot of concepts that REALLY do work, but any guy can learn just by going out into the club scene and paying special attention to what works, and what does not.
If you need more advice please contact me on myspace at myspace.com/shirisu and keep me up to date how things go before doing anything drastic and finding hookers in the Phillipines or something... just get some of this social stuff down better and you might not even have to leave the country to find some dates...
Otherwise do like the romans do and train with a weighted sword, then take that hard experience abroad where it's easier to meet women, and you'll be a pimp.
Sincerely,
Cyrus K
The problem is that women don't need/want a man anymore...
Thanks for your interesting post. I'm looking forward to reading more about how you've crossed the line in the past year.
I don't think the problem is "you" because you've done so much (going dancing/asking at work, etc) that you would have found a girl in the past 176 months if it was possible.
Its now impossible for an average man to buy a house, get a pleasant wife, and get real friends in the USA. I'll only talk about the wife (not the house or friends): Its just become too difficult because girls are "equal" and they don't need or want a man for company, friendship let alone marriage. I think alimony (not gay marriage, polygamy, etc) has destroyed marriage because girls know they can get an income for life, so they dont need to please a man so he'll stay around. Something changed with girls around 1990 when Madonna sang "don't settle for second best..." Now even plump, silly, and ugly girls won't look at an average man.
Well, I hope you get my point, even if you don't agree with everything.
I don't think the problem is "you" because you've done so much (going dancing/asking at work, etc) that you would have found a girl in the past 176 months if it was possible.
Its now impossible for an average man to buy a house, get a pleasant wife, and get real friends in the USA. I'll only talk about the wife (not the house or friends): Its just become too difficult because girls are "equal" and they don't need or want a man for company, friendship let alone marriage. I think alimony (not gay marriage, polygamy, etc) has destroyed marriage because girls know they can get an income for life, so they dont need to please a man so he'll stay around. Something changed with girls around 1990 when Madonna sang "don't settle for second best..." Now even plump, silly, and ugly girls won't look at an average man.
Well, I hope you get my point, even if you don't agree with everything.
"Woman is a violent and uncontrolled animal... If you allow them to achieve complete equality with men, do you think they will be easier to live with? Not at all. Once they have achieved equality, they will be your masters." Cato the Elder
-
momopi
- Elite Upper Class Poster
- Posts: 4898
- Joined: August 31st, 2007, 9:44 pm
- Location: Orange County, California
Most women in the US aren't hardcore gold diggers, so if you just want to date, money is not a huge issue. But if you want to get married, many women would date "poor" but not marry "poor". In most women's eyes the man is still the main provider of bread and security for the household.
America is a great country to make money, but it's also too easy to blow everything you make. Our consumerist culture broadcasts a sense of entitlement into our heads and we spend, spend, and spend some more. We're also lacking a ritual of adulthood, and many men end up as perpetual teenagers -- Mormons (the mission) and Quakers (Hoe down) are exceptions.
America is a great country to make money, but it's also too easy to blow everything you make. Our consumerist culture broadcasts a sense of entitlement into our heads and we spend, spend, and spend some more. We're also lacking a ritual of adulthood, and many men end up as perpetual teenagers -- Mormons (the mission) and Quakers (Hoe down) are exceptions.
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