The biggest problem with the US

[emh]

After thinking about this and talking to a lot of people in other countries, here's what I think the biggest problem in the US is: we move around way too much. (believe me, I'm very guilty of this myself!). Because of that, we lack the deep family and friend connections that people in other countries have. Almost every single person I know lives in a different state then where they grew up and where their parents live. This tends to be less true for people who didn't go to college. Contrast that to some of the Europeans that I've met:

*A girl from Switzerland who lives in the same small town where she was born and grew up and where her parents still live. She has lived in other countries but this town in Switzerland is where she wants to be.

*A guy from Germany who, after traveling though Central and South America, was planning on moving to Hamburg, Germany so he could be close to his parents.

*A 30 year old girl from Poland who still lives with her parents and who told me she plans on keeping her job for the rest of her life. She was shocked when I told her how often people in the US change jobs. She said no one in Poland does that, in Poland people are just happy to have a job.

*I read somewhere that 50% of Italian men live within 5 miles of their families.

Why is it that Americans are always so dissatisfied with there they grew up and want to get so far from their families? And why are we always changing jobs? It's like we have some sort of mental disease that keeps us from appreciating what we have. We always think there's something better out there.

Thoughts?

[zboy1]

After thinking about this and talking to a lot of people in other countries, here's what I think the biggest problem in the US is: we move around way too much. (believe me, I'm very guilty of this myself!). Because of that, we lack the deep family and friend connections that people in other countries have. Almost every single person I know lives in a different state then where they grew up and where their parents live. This tends to be less true for people who didn't go to college. Contrast that to some of the Europeans that I've met:

*A girl from Switzerland who lives in the same small town where she was born and grew up and where her parents still live. She has lived in other countries but this town in Switzerland is where she wants to be.

*A guy from Germany who, after traveling though Central and South America, was planning on moving to Hamburg, Germany so he could be close to his parents.

*A 30 year old girl from Poland who still lives with her parents and who told me she plans on keeping her job for the rest of her life. She was shocked when I told her how often people in the US change jobs. She said no one in Poland does that, in Poland people are just happy to have a job.

*I read somewhere that 50% of Italian men live within 5 miles of their families.

Why is it that Americans are always so dissatisfied with there they grew up and want to get so far from their families? And why are we always changing jobs? It's like we have some sort of mental disease that keeps us from appreciating what we have. We always think there's something better out there.

Thoughts?

Yes good points, emh. In many Asian families, it's actually expected that the oldest son or daughter will take care of their parents and not put them into nursing homes. (which is considered a shameful thing to do). I know Latin American families are very close as well. Why the U.S. is so different--I don't know.

[S_Parc]

Why is it that Americans are always so dissatisfied with there they grew up and want to get so far from their families? And why are we always changing jobs? It's like we have some sort of mental disease that keeps us from appreciating what we have. We always think there's something better out there.

Thoughts?

Are you sure that it's not related to economics? For example, anyone who grew up in upstate NY will no longer be able to work at places like Eastman Kodak or such, and be forced to move for economical reasons.

Likewise, if you're into computer hardware, those jobs have left New England for Texas.

In America, job security is gone and thus, being mobile is the only career security left. I know plenty of those, from Vermont, upstate NY, etc, who never wanted to leave their pastoral environment except for the fact that there's limited work up there.

[E_Irizarry]

@emh,

Thank you for this topic, dude.

@zboy1,

I feel that when Latinos move around the U.S. of Gay, they do it together. You very rarely find Latinos moving by themselves unless the US MIL stationed them there and then they possibly start a family there as the starting point epicenter for his new family to spawn off of.

[E_Irizarry]

In addendum, I also have moved around alot because my family wasn't close and still the f**k isn't. I'm the black sheep of the familia due to the Americanization of my family's value.

If my family were still in Brasil, no matter how "bummie" or how "unsuccessful" one was, they could live off of them for the rest of their lives without the Anglo notion of the family members feeling "used" as socially-disconnected westerns like to coin it.

There are 3-4 generations in one household in a lot of non-western countries in the world.

The greenback disconnects the family and makes it into a competition rather than solidarity.

E.g. At the family gathering which is only ONCE a year (WTF): family member 1: "Hey such-and-such, what are you doing with your life now?"
family member 2 being questioned, "I just graduated with a BA in Poly Sci!"
FM1: "That's great [real talk without being said in FM1's mind: Damn, I'm freakin jealous of this muthafucka now so I have to step my game up!]


or another classic scenario:

FM1 : "Hey such-and-such, I want to confide about something private with you".

FM2 : "Okay. What is it? I won't say a word [f***ing hippocrite (not hypocrite)]"

FM1 : "I have been knocked [i.e. incarcerated] for 6 months but nobody knows man. I was set up now I got a record"

FM2 : "Wow. Well, I hope things get better. Sorry to hear that."

FM2 aka Bakari N. says like a 50-cent informant to other family members, "OMG FM1 was in jail!"

Family : "Wow. No way"......etc etc.
FM2 :

[gsjackson]

No, I think you've missed the mark. Americans don't appreciate what they have because they don't really have anything. Or they don't have a real sense of community, even if they stay in the places they grow up. It has to do with the American mind set.

A French sociologist, Herve Varenne, spent a couple of years in a small Illinois city in the '60s, and came to some interesting conclusions about how Americans think compared to Europeans. Americans, he found, were always in search of community, the distant holy grail never quite attained. It was never attained, he believed, because Americans' unique concept of individualism required that they fully realize their individuality before community could be entered into. Since they inevitably meet with life's continuing little defeats and eventually come to realize their individuality is a feeble, puny thing, the quest for community is surrendered up along with the quest for individuality. The irony here is that, as John Dewey and others have observed, community helps to foster strong individuality. Community precedes individuality, rather than following from it.

Community, Varenne notes, is almost exclusively an American concept, because they are the only ones who feel the lack of it. The whole idea barely registers with Europeans at all. Community and a sense of belonging are simply the backdrop pf their lives, like the air they breathe, taken for granted and scarcely noted.

137 years before Varenne another French observer of American life, Tocqueville, famously observed that American individualism (a term he coined) had the potential to degenerate into an odious narcissism (he called it "egoism") if Americans lost sight of the common good. He was right, and it's a done deal.

[zboy1]

No, I think you've missed the mark. Americans don't appreciate what they have because they don't really have anything. Or they don't have a real sense of community, even if they stay in the places they grow up. It has to do with the American mind set.

A French sociologist, Herve Varenne, spent a couple of years in a small Illinois city in the '60s, and came to some interesting conclusions about how Americans think compared to Europeans. Americans, he found, were always in search of community, the distant holy grail never quite attained. It was never attained, he believed, because Americans' unique concept of individualism required that they fully realize their individuality before community could be entered into. Since they inevitably meet with life's continuing little defeats and eventually come to realize their individuality is a feeble, puny thing, the quest for community is surrendered up along with the quest for individuality. The irony here is that, as John Dewey and others have observed, community helps to foster strong individuality. Community precedes individuality, rather than following from it.

Community, Varenne notes, is almost exclusively an American concept, because they are the only ones who feel the lack of it. The whole idea barely registers with Europeans at all. Community and a sense of belonging are simply the backdrop pf their lives, like the air they breathe, taken for granted and scarcely noted.

137 years before Varenne another French observer of American life, Tocqueville, famously observed that American individualism (a term he coined) had the potential to degenerate into an odious narcissism (he called it "egoism") if Americans lost sight of the common good. He was right, and it's a done deal.

Yes, excellent analysis gsjackson. I was going to bring up Alexis De Tocqueville too--but you beat me to it!

[skateboardstephen]

In addendum, I also have moved around alot because my family wasn't close and still the f**k isn't. I'm the black sheep of the familia due to the Americanization of my family's value.

If my family were still in Brasil, no matter how "bummie" or how "unsuccessful" one was, they could live off of them for the rest of their lives without the Anglo notion of the family members feeling "used" as socially-disconnected westerns like to coin it.

There are 3-4 generations in one household in a lot of non-western countries in the world.

The greenback disconnects the family and makes it into a competition rather than solidarity.

E.g. At the family gathering which is only ONCE a year (WTF): family member 1: "Hey such-and-such, what are you doing with your life now?"
family member 2 being questioned, "I just graduated with a BA in Poly Sci!"
FM1: "That's great [real talk without being said in FM1's mind: Damn, I'm freakin jealous of this muthafucka now so I have to step my game up!]


or another classic scenario:

FM1 : "Hey such-and-such, I want to confide about something private with you".

FM2 : "Okay. What is it? I won't say a word [f***ing hippocrite (not hypocrite)]"

FM1 : "I have been knocked [i.e. incarcerated] for 6 months but nobody knows man. I was set up now I got a record"

FM2 : "Wow. Well, I hope things get better. Sorry to hear that."

FM2 aka Bakari N. says like a 50-cent informant to other family members, "OMG FM1 was in jail!"

Family : "Wow. No way"......etc etc.
FM2 :

That is why i can't stand family gathering and i don't go to them.It is just one big contest about who has this or that or what some ones wife or husband looks like what job they have or some other bull shit that will drive a person with some sense crazy.Families never want to openly talk about issues that really matter or seem to really want to know how you are doing and how they can help you get to where you need to go instead of judging you heeeeeeelllll naaaaaaaaw because if they help you get any where they can't be better than you and show off at the next holiday gathering even if they may have the resources or time to help.

And then if you have a family like mines you have a lot manginas in the family that just don't get it so you can't really have a conversation with them.They jump to defend women's issues more so than the men's and only talk about what they think a man should be buying are providing some women that will divorce them or cheat on them in a heart beat and don't even mention other countries around them.sigh

[FreeYourMind]

I think most Americans are still pretty backward in their thinking. Only about 20% move. The other 80% will never live more than 10 or 20 miles from where they were born. This group is little different from the way most people were before the advent of cars, planes, trains and other modern forms of transportation. Going on a vacation in another state or part of the country is the most some of these 80% will do, while others don't even go anywhere on vacation or lack the money to even ever take a vacation.

That's another reason why being "happier abroad" will never catch on with more than 10% of men, but that's plenty to bring about immense harm to the U.S. Gynocracy.

As far as closeness, families are dysfunctional everywhere in America, whether a lot of them have moved around or not. It's common now for siblings to no longer speak to each other, to have children estranged from parents, etc.

[Jester]

...Community precedes individuality, rather than following from it.

Community, Varenne notes, is almost exclusively an American concept, because they are the only ones who feel the lack of it. The whole idea barely registers with Europeans at all. Community and a sense of belonging are simply the backdrop pf their lives, like the air they breathe, taken for granted and scarcely noted.

137 years before Varenne another French observer of American life, Tocqueville, famously observed that American individualism (a term he coined) had the potential to degenerate into an odious narcissism (he called it "egoism") if Americans lost sight of the common good. He was right, and it's a done deal.

This agrees with some of what Winston's new lengthy essay says - he used the term narcissism among others.

You guys are DEEP.

This is more USEFUL social thought than anything I've seen in quite a while. First, it shows me what WE do wrong as a people and a culture. So our society's decay is not, after all, completely the fault of the Illuminati, Masons, Zionists, Republicans, Democrats, corporations, banksters, crooks, CIA drug-peddlers, etc! Which means there is something WE can do better as a people - other than just overthrow all the aforementioned creeps (which we could still talk about ).

And it also shows me how *I* am part of the problem. Which is actually not all bad: it gives me something *I* can work on.

It's sort of the next step after Winston's essay. Yes the problem is narcissism. The solution is community.

[Jester]

...I feel that when Latinos move around the U.S. of Gay, they do it together. You very rarely find Latinos moving by themselves....

I see that here in Cali for sure.

[Jester]

As far as closeness, families are dysfunctional everywhere in America, whether a lot of them have moved around or not. It's common now for siblings to no longer speak to each other, to have children estranged from parents, etc.

Ouch.

[emh]

Thanks for the interesting discussion guys!

Gsjackson: I'm not familiar with the sociologist's work but it sounds interesting. I'll have to read more.

Anyway, as I said, I'm as guilty of this as anyone. I grew up in a city of 100,000 in Ohio and couldn't wait to move away and have now lived in lots of places. My younger sister was the same. My older sister, on the other hand, has never left our hometown. I recently had an interesting conversation with my mom in which she told me that she would have never thought that 2 of her 3 kids would live so far away.

And I do think something's changed. Looking at my mom's family, where there are 8 kids, only one of them moved far from home. But of my cousins, of which there are 13, nine of us have moved far from home. So I really think something's changed in the past 20-40 years.

I do wonder if there's something wrong with how American's raise their kids and if that's a factor in them wanting to move away.

Somewhat tangentially, I've also read that when the teachers of yoga and Buddhism first came to the US, they were shocked to hear of the concept of self-hatred. They had absolutely no idea what that was. In their cultures, self-hatred simply doesn't exist. But in the US, it's turned into a big business (look at the proliferation of mental health professionals, all the people on anti-depressants). I was in grad school in psychology and I remember a colleague used to say "mental illness is a normal reaction to an abnormal society".

I do worry that the US mindset is slowly spreading throughout the world, kind of like a virus....

[Taco]

There's no doubt the social fabric(the family unit) of western world has fallen apart. This is very scary when you consider the economic and political problems that are quickly headed our way. Leaving Europe and North America is the best advice in world right now.

5 Reasons Why American Riots Will Be The Worst In The World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq1LpGf5 ... ure=relmfu

[E_Irizarry]

In addendum, I also have moved around alot because my family wasn't close and still the f**k isn't. I'm the black sheep of the familia due to the Americanization of my family's value.

If my family were still in Brasil, no matter how "bummie" or how "unsuccessful" one was, they could live off of them for the rest of their lives without the Anglo notion of the family members feeling "used" as socially-disconnected westerns like to coin it.

There are 3-4 generations in one household in a lot of non-western countries in the world.

The greenback disconnects the family and makes it into a competition rather than solidarity.

E.g. At the family gathering which is only ONCE a year (WTF): family member 1: "Hey such-and-such, what are you doing with your life now?"
family member 2 being questioned, "I just graduated with a BA in Poly Sci!"
FM1: "That's great [real talk without being said in FM1's mind: Damn, I'm freakin jealous of this muthafucka now so I have to step my game up!]


or another classic scenario:

FM1 : "Hey such-and-such, I want to confide about something private with you".

FM2 : "Okay. What is it? I won't say a word [f***ing hippocrite (not hypocrite)]"

FM1 : "I have been knocked [i.e. incarcerated] for 6 months but nobody knows man. I was set up now I got a record"

FM2 : "Wow. Well, I hope things get better. Sorry to hear that."

FM2 aka Bakari N. says like a 50-cent informant to other family members, "OMG FM1 was in jail!"

Family : "Wow. No way"......etc etc.
FM2 :

That is why i can't stand family gathering and i don't go to them.It is just one big contest about who has this or that or what some ones wife or husband looks like what job they have or some other bull shit that will drive a person with some sense crazy.Families never want to openly talk about issues that really matter or seem to really want to know how you are doing and how they can help you get to where you need to go instead of judging you heeeeeeelllll naaaaaaaaw because if they help you get any where they can't be better than you and show off at the next holiday gathering even if they may have the resources or time to help.

And then if you have a family like mines you have a lot manginas in the family that just don't get it so you can't really have a conversation with them.They jump to defend women's issues more so than the men's and only talk about what they think a man should be buying are providing some women that will divorce them or cheat on them in a heart beat and don't even mention other countries around them.sigh

Again, I'm glad you co-sign on what I have gone through too. We are both pretty empathetic to alot of dysfunctional transpirations in our lives here in the U.S. of Gay.