smallcheese wrote:

Winston,

I don't know you at all and I've only joined this enlightening site recently. But from your reply my guess is that you don't have any children? If that's true, then you don't truly understand what it means to be a parent. It's hard to explain to someone the bond between a parent and his child when the person isn't a parent yet. I don't know what Mr. S would say but if I had to take an educated guess, I think the main reason he stays in the Phillipines despite all of its issues is because he wants to be as good a father as he can be to his daughter. As a parent, your time with your children is limited and when they grow up, you can't get that time back. So being in a country that's not ideal but allows you to spend as much quality time as possible with your child is worth more than all the money and material comforts in the world, IMHO. It's a trade off but one that many loving parents are willing to make.

I do have a son. But you should know, not all parents are the same and not all people are the same. Not everyone is that emotionally attached to their children. Men are more likely to be less emotionally attached to kids than women are of course. Not all parents automatically become self-sacrificing and put their kids above everything in life, including their own life and freedom. I care about my child too, but not over my own life and freedom. I'm not the kind of person who lives to serve others. To be a real proper parent requires GIVING UP your life, freedom, and placing someone else before you. I don't derive happiness from being that way. It's not me. This has nothing to do with being good or bad, or selfish or unselfish. It's just not me. I'm a freedom junkie. Even if I love and care for someone, I'm not going to live to serve them and give up everything for their sake. No way jose. Other people might feel that they want to do that. But I'm not like them. Maybe some have a "self-sacrificing gene" and others don't.

But yes, Mr S will tell you that that is his reason. He has said that on this forum many times. It's no secret. Everyone is different. We are not all the same. I just find his self-torture in being where he doesn't belong, to be insane and illogical. As his friend, I care about him, so I tell him that for his benefit.


_________________
Happier Abroad Grand Ebook
Meet Foreign Women

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

My apologies Winston but I didn't know you had a son in PI. So you know exactly what the parental bond is all about. But until I hear otherwise from Mr. S, I still stand by my guess. I try to think positively vs. negatively when it comes to human nature even though I've been burned many, many times in the past.

I finally got to spend some time in the Philippines.

Friendly fun open care free people, great weather, nature, decent food, fresh mango! Really great vacation spot, beats Mexico and Hawaii that's for sure.

There one thing that really struck me however, which is the reason for my post. This may offend someone but man it has repeatedly occurred to me that the average intelligence here is low. A little research says around 86 IQ. That sounds about right.

Any sort of conversation stays on the most basic level and sort of goes around in circles. Almost like you are talking to a child that forgets they already just said that 2 minutes ago. Particularly wise decision making or any sort of financial IQ seems really poor.

Just something that really stuck with me from my trip, not sure what else to say about it, just sorta weird and shocking. I'd find that hard to get used to if I lived there.

Double post...the Internet is also really bad.

sushiman wrote:

Any sort of conversation stays on the most basic level and sort of goes around in circles. Almost like you are talking to a child that forgets they already just said that 2 minutes ago. Particularly wise decision making or any sort of financial IQ seems really poor.

Just something that really stuck with me from my trip, not sure what else to say about it, just sorta weird and shocking. I'd find that hard to get used to if I lived there.

This is pretty normal for most Filipinos unless they were born and raised in the developed world. It's like talking with someone with a mild form of autism.

Indeed. Like nobody is in there.

Just for kicks I tried an experiment. Conversing with a local who said "ahhh the Philippines is so poor, I don't know why!". I could tell it was hopeless but I tried simplified economics 101.

Me: "well the country has to find something it does well and trade that with other nations. For example Korea, they have Samsung and they make cell phones and stuff that other nations buy, so they have become rich. The Philippines needs to find something it does well that they can trade with other nations. You know?"

Blank stare. Silence. Topic change.

sushiman wrote:

Indeed. Like nobody is in there.

Just for kicks I tried an experiment. Conversing with a local who said "ahhh the Philippines is so poor, I don't know why!". I could tell it was hopeless but I tried simplified economics 101.

Me: "well the country has to find something it does well and trade that with other nations. For example Korea, they have Samsung and they make cell phones and stuff that other nations buy, so they have become rich. The Philippines needs to find something it does well that they can trade with other nations. You know?"

Blank stare. Silence. Topic change.

I think that "change topic" thing is less about stupidity and more about embarrassment and face. My gf does it a lot. She has a problem, I make a suggestion she cannot or does not want to do and will pause and say "change topic". Its not cause she doesn't understand it's that she is hesitant to debate the issue as we might do here.

Also don't confuse less than perfect skills in English with stupidity. If you're having a serious convo or debate and you throw out a word or concept that she doesn't get in English, rather than embarrass herself by admitting she doesn't understand the word she may just ignore the comment or ask to change the topic. Hell people do that here also.

When I travel I am always more stunned at the stupidity of Westerners who assume that everyone should not only understand English but colloquial English, as well as get American cultural references. The fact that they don't is a frustration but for me a joy of traveling. I'm talking the other day with my gf and I get on the subject of the Marx Brothers. Of course she hasn't a clue who I meant. That may be cultural or just the fact that at her age anything prior to 2000 is off her radar. But instead of being frustrated I tell her I will copy one of their movies on my laptop and show her next month when we are together.

Anyway, that's my experience. You can assume that everyone is an idiot (which certainly some are) or look at it as an opportunity to connect.



Last edited by davewe on Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:53 pm; edited 2 times in total

davewe wrote:

I think that change topic thing is less about stupidity and more about embarrassment and face. My gf does it a lot. She has a problem, I make a suggestion she cannot or does not want to do and will pause and say "change topic". Its not cause she doesn't understand it's that she is hesitant to debate the issue as we might do here.

Anyway, that's my experience.

Not always, sometimes it's that they genuinely do not understand how to break down the topic and discuss it. Thai people do this too and they just don't know what to say most of the time. It's not really face. If you talk about other embarrassing things they will be more than happy to discuss it. However once the subject gets a little too complex for them they check out mentally.

I notice this is very common with most SEA cultures..particularly Thais, Laotians, Cambodians, etc.. all do this.

Viets and Singaporeans are much different.

I was speaking very slow, also hand gestures, using empathetic tone...nothing. It almost seemed like a lack of interest in anything but the present moment combined with also perhaps not grasping high school economics.

Oh shit I forgot to mention the all the unanswerable "whys".

This happened so many times I still can't even get my head around it. Every time you say or do anything: "why?". Like that's the whole sentence. "Why?". I've only been asked that by children prior to the Philippines.

Me: I like this song
You like music?
Me: ummm yeees I like music
Why? (total blank stare sincere question)

How can anyone answer that. Why would any person with a functional brain say such a thing. Holy WTF. You give a smile at something clearly comical happening on the street..."why?". You laugh at an absurd moment..."why?". You don't like pickles..."why".

Shit I gotta get back to civilization.

sushiman wrote:

I finally got to spend some time in the Philippines.

Friendly fun open care free people, great weather, nature, decent food, fresh mango! Really great vacation spot, beats Mexico and Hawaii that's for sure.

There one thing that really struck me however, which is the reason for my post. This may offend someone but man it has repeatedly occurred to me that the average intelligence here is low. A little research says around 86 IQ. That sounds about right.

Any sort of conversation stays on the most basic level and sort of goes around in circles. Almost like you are talking to a child that forgets they already just said that 2 minutes ago. Particularly wise decision making or any sort of financial IQ seems really poor.

Just something that really stuck with me from my trip, not sure what else to say about it, just sorta weird and shocking. I'd find that hard to get used to if I lived there.

I think this has a lot to do with the poor education in the PI. I am not saying there is not good education available in the PI because there is. It is just not universally available. You have to pay to send your kids to a good private school to give them any kind of good education in the PI. I got fairly lucky meeting my wife. Her and her family are poor but somehow managed to recieve a decent education. I think it is because they have all traveled abroad. My wife's family use to all be involved in a traveling band that toured Asia. You are right though, most your meet in the PI have more important things to worry about than education. They are worried about where their next meal is coming from.


_________________
Married to a sweet Filipina girl an never looking back!

A homie told me that "Jens Peters" is the guy who know much about the PI. do you read him? he is going to publish a new one this year.

http://www.amazon.com/Philippines-Travel-Guide-Jens-Peters/dp/3923821328

PART 1

Winston wrote:

The Pros and Cons of Living and Dating in the Philippines (my perspective)

Pros:

- It is a dating paradise for men, especially foreign men. It is easy to get dates or sex anytime you want. No deprivation in this area for men. With most local guys being poor and a large percentage of them being gay or transsexuals, the supply of dateable men is very low. Hence there are always single girls who are looking everywhere you go, a huge surplus of them, never a shortage.

Concur, also local men tend to be unemployed or are either paternalistic freaks or manginas, I do not understand this extemes, also in general women like taller men, so if you are a foreigner, you will stand out physically, hence more attractive.

Biologically speaking, I think the attraction to foreigners is based on the drive to create better offsprings, more genes mixed up means offsprings which will be more attractive to the opposite sex, more resistant to some diseases and generally better immune system.

Winston wrote:

- Girls are tender, affectionate and treat their boyfriend or suitor very well. They are always there for you and make time for you. They are not hung up on looks.

It’s the culture of passive politeness at play here

Winston wrote:

- Girls like to flirt and enjoy flattery and compliments. They do not consider a guy who is attracted to them or asks them out to be a creep who ought to leave them alone. There is no such attitude at all. Flirting and signifying interest is not vilified, but seen as natural and adorable. Girls love attention and flattery too, even if they are shy.

Pinoys and pinays are generally carinosos and carinosas (flirtatious), it’s the latin influence from Spaniards, not to mention growing up in close proximity with members of the opposite sex, even sharing the same room is common here.

Winston wrote:

- Females are not prudish or uptight when it comes to touching or physical affection, but are quite receptive and into it themselves. They are not puritanical like their British, American and Oriental counterparts. When they make love, they are tender and soothe you in a way white women can't.

I agree, most are very touchy-feely to a fault. A pinay can be very touchy with you even if she has ZERO interest.

Winston wrote:

- There are a variety of girls to choose from in terms of ethnic mixes, ranging from light skinned Chinese types to darker Malay types to Spanish looking white types.

Haha! Yeah, seems everyone is a mix around here

Winston wrote:

- Go go bars and videoke bars are cheap to get a girl from to take home. You don't have to sleep alone if you don't want to (unlike some countries where you are forced to sleep alone every night without choice).

Well yeah, but you can’t be sure of the quality of the girl from such places. Yep, a girl to spend the night with, but not take home to mommy

Winston wrote:

- Cost of living and day to day living expenses are generally cheaper than first world countries (not on electronic items though).

- With hotel and transporation generally cheap, it is affordable to travel around the 7000+ islands of the Philippines to enjoy beaches, forests, mountains, rice terraces or volcanoes.

Yes, most definitely

Winston wrote:

- It is warm year round and never gets cold (if you like it that way that is).

Baguio and Bukidnon gets cold on December-mid February

Winston wrote:

- Many people speak at least basic English so there is less of a language barrier than in non-English speaking countries.

Many can understand and speak basic English, many can understand complex English (in the cities) but not everyone can speak fluently

Winston wrote:

- Most people are nice and good folks who are cheerful and open. It is easy to meet people and start conversations. People are always willing to enjoy life and have a good time (especially if it's on your tab of course).

We have a saying in the Philippines, “lahat ng libre, masarap”---everything that is free is worth enjoying, culturally, good time = time when someone else pays

Winston wrote:

- It is the most nonjudgmental and least racist country in Asia. Filipinos are a mix of many ethnic tribes, including Chinese, Spanish and Malay. Thus it is truly multiculturally advanced and integrated. Everyone is accepted here, including misfits from other countries, as long as they are nice, courteous and law abiding.

Hmm, at least 80% true I guess

Winston wrote:

- People are not stuck up, but warm, open and like to enjoy life. They are not too uptight or serious about relaxing and partying. There is a very relaxed laid back attitude in the populace. They are fun and enjoy corny jokes even.

True, the problem with this attitude is the lack of foresight and future-planning, seems like most live for the present (including me). It’s nice but can be dangerous, and growth is ultra slow.


_________________
I do not promise to be gingerly

PART 2

Winston wrote:

Cons:

- Dirty streets and polluted air. Often the streets are littered with garbage and look like they were part of a sewer. It makes you feel like you are walking through a gutter. There are no quality control standards in cleanliness or maintenance, except in rich neighborhoods. Rivers and streams look dirty and toxic too. Thus the land, air and water are polluted in any mid-size city there.

Hey, not all places are like this, I’ve been the Philippines and I say Palawan and CDO are quite clean, Makati area and Ortigas too, but yup, general Manila area is plain dirty and sometimes depressing, moreso if one is not accustomed to seeing slums and poverty mixed with open sewers

Winston wrote:

- Most products are generally of shabby quality, unreliable and break easily. Even brand name products seem to be made inferior to their usual standard, for some reason. Most things sold at the SM Malls are from China and break easily. Clothes you buy there usually fade after 2 or 3 washes, which make them look worn. Even brand name products wear have defects that they usually don't have in first world countries. The power goes out randomly and sporadically out of nowhere. Don't expect the reliability of First World Countries. Quality control standards are very subpar, not at the level of First World industrialized countries.

I think this is related to the fact that pinoys tend to live on the present collectively speaking. Hence they do not generally have a concept that buying expensive quality stuff will benefit them more in the long run versus buying cheap products that will unravel in a few days/weeks/months.

Winston wrote:

- Food in the Philippines is considered by all foreigners unanimously to be the worst in Asia, hands down. Not only are the ingredients in the food of bad quality, but they are shabbily hacked together with no skill or class. 95 percent of restaurants owned by Filipinos serve food that is so disgusting that you wouldn't eat it if it were free, yet they charge high prices for it and get away with it! It's mind boggling.

I agree, no concept of food presentation, hence even great dishes looks unedible for the most part. If you get past appearances, most of the foods are quite good

Winston wrote:

The fast food franchises Chow King and Greenwich are disgusting, not even edible and shouldn't even exist, yet they are everywhere in the Philippines! It's bizarro world. To get decent food you have to be very selective, visiting only places that you know have decent food, which are usually foreign owned. Places owned by foreigners or Filipinos who were trained abroad also have a good chance of being decent.

As a result, this leads to overall nutritional deficits in the Filipino population, which most are unaware of.

Concur, hands down.

On another note, most of the nutritional foods in here is simply not affordable to the common pinoy.

If you are in survival mode, you will also pick out food you can afford, even if it’s not nutritious, as long as it is filling.

I was helping a family in rural Luzon a few years back, the daughter who I was sponsoring to school bagged a lot of medals so I sent them grocery money as reward and gift, I told them in my letter to buy milk for the kids and some treats. Now milk is expensive here, so the mom bought sugar and finely grounded rice to feed the children and pass off as milk. A 1 kg can of powdered milk will last them only a week or less while the sugar and rice will last them 3 weeks.

I was angry for a while with them but then, I really am in no position to blame them. I remember when I went to their place and brought them pizza, they don’t even know what it is.

Winston wrote:

- It is very HOT and HUMID year round. Arizona weather is like California compared to the Philippines. You never get a break from the sticky sweat on your skin. The only relief is to go indoors where there is air conditioning. This makes it hard to enjoy being outdoors. This also means that at your home you have to have the air conditioning on all the time, which skyrockets your electricity costs! It's unavoidable.

But you have no choice since it's so damn hot and humid day and not EVERY day of the year! Those who hate humidity will wilt in the atmosphere of the Philippines. In addition, the air also seems thin to some, making it hard to breathe or exercise.

Concur, summers are hell for me usually, the heated moist air is just too much.

Winston wrote:

- Food spoils very quickly in the Philippines, even when it's refrigerated, like it does nowhere else, probably due to the humidity that allows all kinds of molds and bacteria to grow. I've never seen food spoil as fast as it does in the Philippines.

- You can't leave food on the table or anywhere in open space without ants getting to it within minutes. But it's impossible to remember every time to put food in the fridge or within locked containers, so inevitably you're going to have ants getting into some of your food. It's very annoying, and does not happen in colder or dryer climates.

Agree

Winston wrote:

The humid air and unsanitary conditions in the Philippines makes it a breeding ground for all kinds of nasty insects, pests, viruses, bacteria and shit to grow and flourish everywhere. This is bad for expat health because there are more diseases and infections around for you to catch. So not only do you have to deal with greedy people around you, but nasty pests and insects as well. Ick. It often makes you regret being there.

Ouch, haha

Winston wrote:

- Many people are rude and inconsiderate without manners or civilized behavior. They cut in line in front of you, interrupt when you're talking to a salesperson, are pushy when they want you to buy something, etc. Beggars will touch you and stand in your way and demand donations. Trike drivers will cat call you as if you were their pet. I've seen construction workers use electric drills and saw wood right in the middle of a crowded restaurant, totally oblivious to the fact that they are annoying the hell out of the customers! (fortunately they were ordered to stop eventually) But boy I've never seen such clueless people.

Yeah, that really happens, very rude.

Winston wrote:

- In the Philippines, you are constantly surrounded by people with a "give me, give me" look on their faces. And that's because the key to their survival has been in finding ways to GET things from others, taking advantage of them, and freeloading off them. They're always looking for free things and generous people to get things from. But of course, they never want to give anything for free, as nothing in their culture is free. It's obvious hypocrisy of course, but I guess in their position, they can't afford any ethics. This can get annoying and infuriating, as it makes you feel like a constant target, but some expats get used to it and just develop a firm stance against them, while others don't.

Location, location, location, need I say more? Just don’t go to the shady areas and people will generally be better.

Winston wrote:

- Filipinos definitely love to GET and HATE to give. This explains in part why salaries are so low in the Philippines that many have to go abroad to work or resort to receiving funds from overseas relatives or foreigners. They are so low because everyone hates giving and is super stingy, while of course they are always happy to receive as much as possible from others. This creates an obvious imbalance in their society that leads to problems.

Actually no, most companies here are foreign owned or owned by expat entrepreneurs (mostly Chinese and Chinese ancestry), so you are basically saying it’s the foreigners who love outsourcing here because they are stingy cheap and are downright exploitative.

Winston wrote:

The basic hypocrisy here is that everyone is always wanting to get but no one wants to give. This creates an imbalance that leads to consequences.

To them, there is no shame at all in taking, but there is in giving. When Filipinos do give, it's always very little, and if it goes beyond that, there will be extreme reluctance and an attempt to make you feel guilty for forcing them to give. Giving goes against their nature.

This is why foreigners who live in the Philippines or have done business there will tell you that "When money is flowing from you to them (Filipinos) they will be nice and friendly to you. But when money is flowing from them to YOU, they will see you as a devil."

Many Filipinos feel NO SHAME at all in receiving things, even at great expense to the giver, but in fact have an OVEREAGERNESS and INSATIABLE appetite for it. They receive with a child-like glee, as if they were children jumping up and down in front of Santa Claus waiting for their gifts.

WRONG. You got it all mixed up, real pinoys (not leaches) will be ashamed to get a guest or a friend to pay for them. It’s the wolf-leach pack who has the gimme gimme attitude.

Giving is not against pinoy culture, it IS against leach culture

I remember one time I got lost in at the provinces, I was wandering around and it started to rain, and next thing I know, I was in the middle of a dirt road, totally unaware of where the heck I am (typical female malady eh? ). Then a couple in their trike approached me and asked where I was headed, I told them I’m lost and I’m a tourist (they were talking to me in broken English coz they thought I’m a foreigner…maybe because of my features and how I was dressed). They offered me their umbrella for free and wanted to bring me back to the town in their trike, but then the rain got so bad so they brought me to their place and fed me. All along they have no idea I’m a pinay coz we were talking in broken english since. They were so nice and generous and after a few hrs brought me back to my hotel. They did not accept money, they did not accept some nice shirts I wanted to give them. They are very poor and we only ate some boiled leaves and fish sauce with rice for dinner when I was with them, and yet they were willing to give me more.

I’ve also encountered leaches who are out for money. I make fairly good money at my job, and some people who I happen to know thinks I should treat them when going out and some deliberately borrow money from me with no intention of paying back. It’s disgusting, however, I believe that honest people and leaches exists the world over.

Winston wrote:

Try this: When you are in a department store, go to a sales associate and point to some fancy expensive item and jokingly say, "How about I buy that for you?!" Notice how they light up with glee and delight as they say "Oh really?! You buy that for me?" as though he/she were a child, totally forgetting the nonsensical nature of a total stranger buying an expensive gift for another stranger for no reason.

That's because their desire to receive without shame or guilt supersedes everything without inhibition. It's the nature of their character. There is no shame or guilt in seeing you waste your money either, even if you're poor or on a budget. They are always very willing to receive things from you, even if it bankrupts you.

Totally untrue, you can say SOME pinoy are like that, but not ALL. That is plain foul to generalize like that.

Winston wrote:

Many are also not shy to ask you directly for a gift either, hence the popular cultural line they give you when you are about to travel: "Don't forget my pasalubong (gift)." Even jokes like that are revealing in regards to a culture's mentality. Such greediness is the worst in Manila and Angeles City, but not as bad in the rest of the country or the provinces.

In this area, there is a double standard in that while it is ok for a Filipino to want to receive things for FREE, and take advantage of any FREE thing they can get, it is considered out of line and rude for a foreigner to expect to get anything for free. Instead, foreigners are supposed to enjoy paying for everything, not expecting anything for free. Yet a Filipino is allowed to gleefully want and expect free things, especially from foreigners, as though it were an entitlement they had been waiting for, like a child waiting all year for Santa to visit his home.

I’ve seen this, and yes, you are talking of the leaches subtype. It does not apply to ALL or the whole country.

Winston wrote:

- Foreigners are treated like Santa Clauses (without their permission of course). Filipinos hold two major fallacies regarding foreigners:

a) All foreigners have bottomless pockets and can never run out of money no matter how much they spend.
b) All foreigners do not care about price. It is never an issue to them. They are willing to pay any price for anything without dispute. Wasting money is not a concern to them.

They simply do not understand people. Even rich people will have preferences in what they want to splurge on and what they don't. Just cause someone is rich doesn't mean he will not be concerned about price vs. value, and making sure he gets his money's worth.

Now "b" may be true for many white foreigners who do not mind splurging, but not with Chinese foreigners. No way. Chinese are brought up with major shame and guilt about wasting money, even if they are from rich families. Filipinos do not understand or relate to Chinese in this aspect.

Agree.

Winston wrote:

There are some foreigners though who behave exactly like Richard Gere did with Julia Roberts in the movie "Pretty Woman", (and can afford to) spending an obscene amount of money on the girl of their affection. They will shower their girl with expensive cell phones, laptops and other gifts. But unfortunately, these foreigners spoil it for the rest of us and contribute to the "Santa Claus" image.

But most foreigners are not rich. They are budget conscious, frugal and efficient with their money, not spending beyond what is necessary, which is how it is in the real world after all. The problem is that somehow, all foreigners in the Philippines get lumped into the "splurging unlimited cash" type personified in "Pretty Woman". It's an unfair stereotype, but it exists.

True.

Winston wrote:

What's really funny though, is that even when hippie backpacker travelers walk around the Philippines, hustlers and peddlers STILL call out to them thinking that they are rich and treat them like cash cows just because they have white skin! Anyone with any worldly sense about people know that backpackers - the kind who stay in hostels - are often on a very TIGHT BUDGET, and are not rich at all! They even LOOK and dress like they're poor! Yet Filipinos are clueless about this. I guess their greed and ignorance transcends their common sense about other people. Lol. That would be the logical conclusion.

DO. NOT. GENERALIZE. Grrrrrr

Winston wrote:

- Unfortunately, since foreigners here are used to being targeted by hustlers, peddlers and those wanting to sell them overpriced goods and services, or taken advantage of, as though they were rotating targets in a "carnival shooting gallery", they eventually become overly defensive and dismiss everyone trying to help them, including well meaning locals who are just trying to help without any ulterior motive. Such is the unfortunate consequence of "building up your defenses", in that eventually you stereotype them all as "greedy hustlers to be avoided" for convenience sake, or because you just don't want to deal with them anymore, period.

Agree, it’s really bad for tourism and for my nation's image

PART 3 coming up


_________________
I do not promise to be gingerly