Why do young women dislike nonconformists?

[eurobrat]

...

[All_That_Is_Man]

That may be true. But I am talking about something much simpler, and with women who have no idea if you are successful or not.

For example, if you say things like "I don't accept society's programming that the purpose of life is to work." or "I don't live in fear of what others think of me." or "I don't judge my life by materialistic standards." or "The media wants you to live in fear. Better not to watch the news." or "Authority is not truth. Truth is the authority." etc. normal mainstream women may feel a rift between you and them, or be weirded out. Liberal American girls are more likely to accept or agree with such views, but in Asia, such views are very alien.

There's your problem right there. I gave up on having logical conversations with women a long time ago. I've learned (through trial and error, no less) that bringing up logical topics or using logical choices of words is the first step to make a woman hostile and evasive toward you. Sorry if this sounds like some "pick-up artist" shit, but I speak the truth. Seriously, save the logical topics for a night out with the boys, or amongst the men here on the forums. You'd be surprised how when you stop making any sense, women submit to your presence. How far you get is another story. Personally, I have a need to make sense, so I'm not too popular with the ladies as I'd like to be.

It depends on who your talking to. Not all women are the same.

Well, the logical women I've met are generally feminist extremists. So they're out.

Ain't that the truth. Look at the women CEO's of this country not one good looking one. Sarah Palin is probably the only hot politician.

The key is to steer clear of the "logical" women, the corporate ladder climbers, the politicians, the bread winners, the Presidents/CEOs/managers, etc. A woman would have to completely dismiss her femininity to be any of these things. Give me a natural woman who doesn't have a need to compete with men any day.

[TruthOrConsequences]

Yeah. I've noticed that too. Women are sheeple mostly. Or maybe it's just that they're really afraid of other women and how they will be perceived. They know that women are extremely passive aggressive and gossipy. And they're afraid to violate the social order of things, while men always tend to have disagreements and bump heads here and there. So for men it's about standing up for who you are and what you believe in and all women care about is saving face and not letting their little reputation get tarnished since they know they can't compete with men, predatory women, queen bees and everybody else up in this joint. Various social cliques etc.

[Winston]

I have a question. It seems like most young women dislike nonconformists, unless of course they are one themselves.
Why is that?......
Is it because being a nonconformist is a mark of low status and instability/insecurity to a woman?....

This depends on if you're a successful noncomformist.

That may be true. But I am talking about something much simpler, and with women who have no idea if you are successful or not.
For example, if you say things like "I don't accept society's programming that the purpose of life is to work." or "I don't live in fear of what others think of me." or "I don't judge my life by materialistic standards." or "The media wants you to live in fear. Better not to watch the news." or "Authority is not truth. Truth is the authority." etc. normal mainstream women may feel a rift between you and them, or be weirded out. Liberal American girls are more likely to accept or agree with such views, but in Asia, such views are very alien.

The answer that I've given is the simple one. Your reply is the complex one.

A successful artist, musician, poet, surfing/diving instructor, dolphin trainer, etc. who says "I don't believe in traditional jobs and careers", "I don't care what others thinks", and "I don't live for money" can be exciting & attractive to women. When he speaks of being a nonconformist, he is sexy, interesting, and philosophical.

An unsuccessful couch potato who says the same is less attractive to women. When he speaks of being a nonconformist, he is lazy bum and a turn-off.

Many of the most successful entrepreneurs are college drop-outs: Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Ellison, Michael Dell, Ralph Lauren, Steve Jobs, etc. Consider the difference between Steve Jobs speaking to an audience about being nonconformist and dropping out of college to pursue your passions, versus a far less successful person delivering the same speech.

Often, it’s not what you say, but who you are and how you say it. The word authority comes from the Latin word auctoritas, which means a person’s recognized prestige and charisma. When you have neither, you’re just another bloke on the soapbox in Hyde Park.

No you missed my point. I'm not talking about women who know your occupation, background and degree of success. I'm talking about women you might meet at a get together or party or outing who just have a polite casual chat with you. They aren't going to know anything about you or how successful you are. They will just know about you from what you say. I'm talking about this type of casual exchange, not women who know your occupation and life history and degree of success. You are reading too much into it. Casual polite conversations aren't going to reveal how successful you are, unless of course, you say you are successful.

[ethan_sg]

When we say nonconformist, do we use a very lenient, almost meaningless definition of 'not following convention', or do we use a stricter, more meaningful definition of 'not following the principles and dictates of the socio-economic system you live under, which you consider to be inhuman, unjust, detrimental to human community and happiness and so on etc.

Let's not mince our words here, when we say 'successful nonconformist' what we really mean is a nonconformist with lots of money. Now a rich non-conformist is pretty rare. Unless he was born into wealth, inherited wealth, won the lottery etc.

Actually the idea of a successful nonconformist in this system is almost an oxymoron. A nonconformist does not believe in the system he lives, finds it oppressive and is therefore unlikely to obey the rules, betray his principles, all of which are generally required in order to be a successful corporate wage slave in today's society.

Now people like to cite examples of so called 'nonconformists' like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. I don't consider them nonconformists at all. Okay yes they dropped out of school and were extremely successful entrepreneurs. But is entrepreneurship then the mode in which a nonconformist successfully rebels against the system? No. Below are 2 reasons.

1. If by being a successful entrepreneur, a nonconformist becomes successful, then this nonconformist would have had no reason to be against the socio-economic system he lived under in the first place because this socio-economic system did provide an avenue for him to pursue his entrepreneurship. So how can entrepreneurship be a nonconformist's successful rebellion against the system when the system does not in anyway reject or prohibit entrepreneurship?

Therefore if we define 'nonconformity' as rebellion against the prevailing social-economic system, successful entrepreneurship cannot be be an expression of nonconformity.

2. Building multinational corporations to the levels that Steve Jobs and Bill Gates did is not what non-conformists who are against the prevailing socio-economic system do. In order to build it up to the behemoths they have become today, they would have had to mimic the traits of all the typical white collared corporate conformist slaves in the world today, albeit much more successfully and more extremely. You don't build up a behemoth company by valuing freedom from the office cubicle and opposing hierarchical corporate structures, rejecting corporate politics etc.

Most importantly, you don't build up a behemoth MNC by being anti-compulsive consumerism and commercialization, ills that are so endemic in developed countries today..

You also don't build up a behemoth tech MNC by being ideologically against the dehumanizing nature of technology-screen obsessed culture - of how people spend so much time on computers and cable TVs and so called 'friends' on facebook, or are glued to their smart-phones, but don't know any of their neighbors anymore, lack community, are full of superficial acquaintances but no real friends etc.

Building a behemoth of a multi-national entity that is at the forefront of producing machines and devices that spearhead and perpetuate this soulless excessively mediated techno-culture is not an example of non-conformity to the the prevailing social-economic system as well.

In fact a genuine non-conformist, if we go by the strict definition of being against the prevailing social-economic culture and system we live under, will find it nearly impossible to be 'successful' in the sense of accumulating a great amount of wealth at all, simply because he isn't going to conform and be a corporate wage slave who spends most of his life in a cubicle. He realizes that that is slavery.

So yea it's easy to say 'successful non-conformist' but the truth is the definition of success used in this context would require the nonconformist to become a conformist in order to attain.

This is of course different if we define 'success' as being successfully non-conformist, meaning successful in living by the principles he believes in, as opposed to that of the oppressive social-economic system he lives under. Then by being a nonconformist he would be a success in his own eyes and in the true spirit of nonconformity.

[lavezzi]

Is (some) women's attraction to wealthy men based on the material benefits they wish to acquire from them? Or is it the high social status these men have as a result of being wealthy which attracts them?

[momopi]

[lavezzi]

When meeting a girl for the first time or going out on the first date, the conversation should be focused on her and not you. Seek to create positive kimochii (気持ち), which is a combination of feeling, sensation, mood, & chemistry. Good topics include fun vacations, backpacking trips, hiking in the mountains, her family, what she likes in men, her personal tastes, and what she does for fun.

I'm not saying this isn't perfectly good advice, but for me I would forget ALL preconceived notions and let intuition take over entirely, this is where skill in social interaction comes from either way. When I go out on a date, I have no idea what I'm going to talk about and I completely depend on it flowing in the moment. If you're truly confident, you can say almost anything and get a positive response.

[OutWest]

When we say nonconformist, do we use a very lenient, almost meaningless definition of 'not following convention', or do we use a stricter, more meaningful definition of 'not following the principles and dictates of the socio-economic system you live under, which you consider to be inhuman, unjust, detrimental to human community and happiness and so on etc.

Let's not mince our words here, when we say 'successful nonconformist' what we really mean is a nonconformist with lots of money. Now a rich non-conformist is pretty rare. Unless he was born into wealth, inherited wealth, won the lottery etc.

Actually the idea of a successful nonconformist in this system is almost an oxymoron. A nonconformist does not believe in the system he lives, finds it oppressive and is therefore unlikely to obey the rules, betray his principles, all of which are generally required in order to be a successful corporate wage slave in today's society.

Now people like to cite examples of so called 'nonconformists' like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. I don't consider them nonconformists at all. Okay yes they dropped out of school and were extremely successful entrepreneurs. But is entrepreneurship then the mode in which a nonconformist successfully rebels against the system? No. Below are 2 reasons.

1. If by being a successful entrepreneur, a nonconformist becomes successful, then this nonconformist would have had no reason to be against the socio-economic system he lived under in the first place because this socio-economic system did provide an avenue for him to pursue his entrepreneurship. So how can entrepreneurship be a nonconformist's successful rebellion against the system when the system does not in anyway reject or prohibit entrepreneurship?

Therefore if we define 'nonconformity' as rebellion against the prevailing social-economic system, successful entrepreneurship cannot be be an expression of nonconformity.

2. Building multinational corporations to the levels that Steve Jobs and Bill Gates did is not what non-conformists who are against the prevailing socio-economic system do. In order to build it up to the behemoths they have become today, they would have had to mimic the traits of all the typical white collared corporate conformist slaves in the world today, albeit much more successfully and more extremely. You don't build up a behemoth company by valuing freedom from the office cubicle and opposing hierarchical corporate structures, rejecting corporate politics etc.

Most importantly, you don't build up a behemoth MNC by being anti-compulsive consumerism and commercialization, ills that are so endemic in developed countries today..

You also don't build up a behemoth tech MNC by being ideologically against the dehumanizing nature of technology-screen obsessed culture - of how people spend so much time on computers and cable TVs and so called 'friends' on facebook, or are glued to their smart-phones, but don't know any of their neighbors anymore, lack community, are full of superficial acquaintances but no real friends etc.

Building a behemoth of a multi-national entity that is at the forefront of producing machines and devices that spearhead and perpetuate this soulless excessively mediated techno-culture is not an example of non-conformity to the the prevailing social-economic system as well.

In fact a genuine non-conformist, if we go by the strict definition of being against the prevailing social-economic culture and system we live under, will find it nearly impossible to be 'successful' in the sense of accumulating a great amount of wealth at all, simply because he isn't going to conform and be a corporate wage slave who spends most of his life in a cubicle. He realizes that that is slavery.

So yea it's easy to say 'successful non-conformist' but the truth is the definition of success used in this context would require the nonconformist to become a conformist in order to attain.

This is of course different if we define 'success' as being successfully non-conformist, meaning successful in living by the principles he believes in, as opposed to that of the oppressive social-economic system he lives under. Then by being a nonconformist he would be a success in his own eyes and in the true spirit of nonconformity.

Who says the non-conformist has to be Bill Gates to be successful in the context of "success" here? I don't think anyone meant
mufti-billionaire when they meant success, I think they meant "reasonably comfortable" One man's non-conformity might be the next generation's proven success for that matter. A non-conformist may easily use the system to get what he needs without being a cubicle slave. The trading world, which I know quite a bit about, has many non-conformists who use the system to harvest cash,
Their personal lives are in the less than 1% category, live offshore, come and go as they please, make good money, live as they wish.
Even their trading theory is often highly unusual, but because of their unusual perspectives, they see markets differently than most, allowing them to harvest opportunity. There is quite a bit of middle ground between bohemian permanent couch surfer and being a corporate titan.

My own trading theories are unique, politically incorrect, and have been spot on all year, up the the latest hour. I have never been in a cubicle in my life, and write this from a small mango farm in the southern Philippines. The only traders I am in contact with are two very unusual quants who are some of the most bizarre guys around.

Non-conformity may mean success when the other 99% are lemmings headed off the cliff to destruction.

Outwest

[pete98146]

[momopi]

[lavezzi]

The faster a person starts talking about 1. non-comformity 2. social norms and how you don't fit in 3. conspiracy theories, etc the faster she will lose interest in you.

I strongly disagree. I told my conservative-natured Korean girlfriend within 5 or 6 times of seeing her about how I've:

-Never had a girlfriend before.
-Have had sex with 9 prostitutes.
-Have left school over 3 years ago and have been living at home, leeching off government social welfare payments and my parents with zero plans to ever go to college or get a job.
-How I only have one pair of clothes and rarely shower (twice a week), etc.

Also when she stayed over at my house for a weekend I showed her several David Icke videos (the guy who believes reptilians control the world). I constantly talk to her about spirituality, non-conformity and societal norms and how I don't fit in.

Yet despite all this she says she loves me and the relationship is going better in all areas than I could have ever imagined.

[momopi]

[pete98146]

The faster a person starts talking about 1. non-comformity 2. social norms and how you don't fit in 3. conspiracy theories, etc the faster she will lose interest in you.

I strongly disagree. I told my conservative-natured Korean girlfriend within 5 or 6 times of seeing her about how I've:

-Never had a girlfriend before.
-Have had sex with 9 prostitutes.
-Have left school over 3 years ago and have been living at home, leeching off government social welfare payments and my parents with zero plans to ever go to college or get a job.
-How I only have one pair of clothes and rarely shower (twice a week), etc.

Also when she stayed over at my house for a weekend I showed her several David Icke videos (the guy who believes reptilians control the world). I constantly talk to her about spirituality, non-conformity and societal norms and how I don't fit in.

Yet despite all this she says she loves me and the relationship is going better in all areas than I could have ever imagined.

That's good but I think she would be in the minority...that or you have a 10 inch pecker BTW, congrats and I hope your relationship stays strong!

[lavezzi]