Most Civilized Country?

[fschmidt]

I have been thinking about which country is most civilized because I would like to encourage my kids to learn a language of a civilized country so that they can possibly move there later. By civilized, I mean that people act with consideration for each other, not like selfish animals. I want a short list and then I want to visit these countries with my family and let my kids choose. Right now I see only 2 candidates, Israel and Japan. Both countries are highly nationalistic. The Japanese consider gaijin inferior and the Jews consider goyim inferior, and this is a good sign of serious nationalism which helps protect the native culture. Japan and Israel also have the lowest illegitimacy rates in the world. So any comments? Any countries to add or any reason to exclude either of these 2?

[Mangus the Red]

Switzerland perhaps?

[Cornfed]

Israel a civilized country? WTF? Israelis are personally and politically the worst people in the world next to Western women.

[Jester]

Either one would work for you I think.

[fschmidt]

Switzerland perhaps?

The illegitimacy rate in Switzerland is 17% compared to 5% in Israel. So even if Switzerland is civilized now, it won't remain civilized for long.

[Jester]

Switzerland perhaps?

The illegitimacy rate in Switzerland is 17% compared to 5% in Israel. So even if Switzerland is civilized now, it won't remain civilized for long.

I think some cantons of Switzerland would meet your requirements nicely. Zug, perhaps?

Also, some of the small, off-the-radar principalities in Europe are quite old-fashioned. Residency is often available if you buy real estate and live there. Malta, Andorra, Liechtenstein, Campe d'Italia...

So you see illegitimacy as the key test? This rules out all of Latin America I guess. I would have used something more like "fags and sluts on TV". For example, the Philippines would pass my test, but not yours.

[fschmidt]

I think some cantons of Switzerland would meet your requirements nicely. Zug, perhaps?

Also, some of the small, off-the-radar principalities in Europe are quite old-fashioned. Residency is often available if you buy real estate and live there. Malta, Andorra, Liechtenstein, Campe d'Italia...

So you see illegitimacy as the key test? This rules out all of Latin America I guess. I would have used something more like "fags and sluts on TV". For example, the Philippines would pass my test, but not yours.

Malta has an illegitimacy rate of 24% in 2008, up from 2% in 1990. Liechtenstein has an illegitimacy rate of 19% in 2005. I don't have stats on the other countries. The basic pattern I see is that Christian countries are a lost cause. Anarchistic countries like Latin America and the Philippines are fine places for single men to date, but they aren't optimal places to raise a family or run a business.

[Jester]

I have been thinking about which country is most civilized ....By civilized, I mean that people act with consideration for each other, not like selfish animals. ....Right now I see only 2 candidates, Israel and Japan. Both countries are highly nationalistic. The Japanese consider gaijin inferior and the Jews consider goyim inferior, and this is a good sign of serious nationalism which helps protect the native culture. Japan and Israel also have the lowest illegitimacy rates in the world. So any comments? Any countries to add or any reason to exclude either of these 2?

...The basic pattern I see is that Christian countries are a lost cause. Anarchistic countries like Latin America and the Philippines are fine places for single men to date, but they aren't optimal places to raise a family or run a business.

OK -- summary as I understand it:
high nationalism
low illegitimacy
good place to raise a family
good place to run a business


Israel and Japan
Can't imagine Israel having low illegitimacy. israelis sleep around like they are passing a joint around.

Microcommunities WITHIN Israel might fit. Greeks, Arab Christians, probably some Messianics (?).

Smalltown Japan seems like an excellent fit.


Other Ideas:
Aland
Bornholm
Faroe Islands
Orania in South Africa
Mennonite colonies anywhere - U.S., Paraguay, etc etc
Gloriavale in New Zealand (you've seen that thread)
Utah
Mormons anywhere
Korea


Questions:
(1) Don't you believe in natural (Biblical) polygamy?
(2) If so, isn't that easier to do in a country with high rate of so-called illegitimacy? Kind of eliminates the awkwardness for a second wife if some other girls in the neighborhood are mistresses of wealthy men. Wouldn't you agree?

[Jester]

Malta has an illegitimacy rate of 24% in 2008, up from 2% in 1990. Liechtenstein has an illegitimacy rate of 19% in 2005.

My bad, I'm surprised.

[fschmidt]

Thanks, Jester, for taking the time to answer.

Yes liberal Israel is a cesspool, like Tel Aviv. But Orthodox Jews are not like this. Orthodox Jews dominate Jerusalem and will take over Israel eventually. So when I talk about Israel, really I am talking about Orthodox Judaism.

I posted today asking about Japan. Here are some interesting stats about Asia:

http://www.economist.com/node/21526329

So the average age of marriage for women in Japan in 30. Among Orthodox Jews it is certainly under 25. Smalltown anywhere is better than big cities but ultimately smalltowns follow the rest of the country.

These other groups you mention are really tiny. And I'm not sure how well the Christians will tolerate non-Christians. So these may be good options for some people but probably not for my family.

I think polygamy only makes sense when there is a significant excess of women, which was the case in biblical times but not now. Any society that has men who can't find wives is going to become unstable and corrupt. Men without wives have nothing to lose and no reason to be moral. So in the modern world with roughly an equal number of men and women, I am very much against polygamy. The first command in the Bible is "be fruitful and multiply" and this is impossible for men who can't find wives.

[Jester]

Thanks, Jester, for taking the time to answer.

Yes liberal Israel is a cesspool, like Tel Aviv. But Orthodox Jews are not like this. Orthodox Jews dominate Jerusalem and will take over Israel eventually. So when I talk about Israel, really I am talking about Orthodox Judaism.

I posted today asking about Japan. Here are some interesting stats about Asia:

http://www.economist.com/node/21526329

So the average age of marriage for women in Japan in 30. Among Orthodox Jews it is certainly under 25. Smalltown anywhere is better than big cities but ultimately smalltowns follow the rest of the country.

These other groups you mention are really tiny. And I'm not sure how well the Christians will tolerate non-Christians. So these may be good options for some people but probably not for my family.

I think polygamy only makes sense when there is a significant excess of women, which was the case in biblical times but not now. Any society that has men who can't find wives is going to become unstable and corrupt. Men without wives have nothing to lose and no reason to be moral. So in the modern world with roughly an equal number of men and women, I am very much against polygamy. The first command in the Bible is "be fruitful and multiply" and this is impossible for men who can't find wives.

Polygamy is a long debate, let's do that another time perhaps. Your views sound well-reasoned.

It seems that you are settled on practicing Judaism, I thought you were still on the fence. Israel then seems a natural fit.

Read the article about Asia. Dr. Mo is my kind of man. Amazing that he saw all that way back in 1955! The war on men and families in the U.S. had just kicked off at that time. I'm curious, what is your take on Malaysia? Other than religion, how well would it fit your criteria?

[publicduende]

I have never been to Israel but from the people I spoke to, I understand they're not at all a fascist country. Their political system has been hijacked by a bunch of right-wing warmongering nutters and the reputation of a Jew or an Israeli had nothing but suffered because of that.

Have you thought of raising your family in a kibbutz? Their community model is one of eco-friendliness, self-sustainability and independence. Perhaps you might find what you're looking for there...

Also, Japan is a well disciplined and structured country, yet one that can easily generate asocial (as opposed to antisocial) behaviours: isolation, extreme frustration, sense of powerlessness. This is quite understandable, given the importance Japan gives to social cohesion and the "greater good" over one's individuality. Having known Japanese and Israeli, I would say hands down go and live in the Israeli countryside, among sun, warm sea, oranges and happy people.

[fschmidt]

I'm curious, what is your take on Malaysia? Other than religion, how well would it fit your criteria?

I don't know enough about it to comment. I spent a few weeks there 20 years ago and it seemed okay. I haven't seen any stats on Malaysia.

[Rayn]

Malaysia is a good place for either single Muslims or married non-Muslims.

As for acting in consideration for each other - sorry to be blunt, but if you are not one of us, that is not going to happen. Xenophobia is thriving in Malaysia. There is this whole 'them against us' mentality going on in Malaysia especially in the workplace and politics. Something about Chinese keeping the Indian and Malay employees down, and likewise in return.

[Taco]

Ironically, civilization as we know it is the work of psychopaths. With that in mind, any industrialized country will qualify as being very "civilized". However, the most polite white people that I've encountered were from Utah, with a few exceptions. The most polite people overall would be Filipinos, they will politely lie to you and cheat you any chance they get.