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Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

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OutWest
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by OutWest » September 5th, 2017, 8:09 pm

MrMan wrote:Just think of those poor potatoes. They live out their lives buried under ground, in a confined space. Then, some human plucks the potato out of the only home it has ever known and takes it to a kitchen. WIthout mercy, the cook cuts the poor potatoes eyes off. Then it flays the potato, removing the potatoes skin. The cook may choose to boil the potato, bake it, or fry it in hot oil.

Would you want what happens to the potato to happen to you?
What about those poor carrots? Winston must know, plants have feelings too! Those plants have never been cruel to anyone, yet he brutally rips their bodies apart!
Contrarian Expatriate
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » September 5th, 2017, 9:13 pm

OutWest wrote:
MrMan wrote:Just think of those poor potatoes. They live out their lives buried under ground, in a confined space. Then, some human plucks the potato out of the only home it has ever known and takes it to a kitchen. WIthout mercy, the cook cuts the poor potatoes eyes off. Then it flays the potato, removing the potatoes skin. The cook may choose to boil the potato, bake it, or fry it in hot oil.

Would you want what happens to the potato to happen to you?
What about those poor carrots? Winston must know, plants have feelings too! Those plants have never been cruel to anyone, yet he brutally rips their bodies apart!
I'm going to find a video showing how they chop up and mutilate vegetables for salads. When you view it, you all will never want to eat salad again!
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Daddy Wu
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by Daddy Wu » September 5th, 2017, 10:43 pm

Winston! My lazy son!

Real man live in real world! Have real problems! No time for sissy nonsense!

Be man! Not sissy boy! No good!

Listen to Daddy!

Love,
Your Daddy
hammanta
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by hammanta » September 6th, 2017, 12:11 am

MrMan wrote:
Winston wrote:Eric Dubay:

The idea that humans must consume animal flesh and excretions as part of a balanced diet is a monstrous myth that is quietly murdering billions of humans, animals and the environment. Heart Disease, Cancer, Stroke, Diabetes and the other 15 leading causes of human death have now been repeatedly verified and concluded through scientific meta-studies to be caused by the consumption of animal products. Furthermore, switching to a plant-based diet has proven to reverse almost all of them!
Do these studies take into account whether people eat just small amounts of meat? Someone who eats burgers every day for lunch and steak every night may not be as healthy as someone who eats a few quality cuts of meat every week, but eats several vegetarian or near vegetarian meals. If we think about what some peoples ate in history, the British may have eaten a few tiny strips of bacon in the morning or an egg, but mainly eaten vegetables. Many of the Native Americans may have eaten mostly corn, beans, and squash, but might get some meat from a dear or small game every week or every week or two. (I am guessing.) And they may have eaten fish.

When we think about historical peoples, they would need a diet with complete protein. That is a problem that dairy products and meat can solve rather easily. Some of the Native American tribes ate corn and beans together, a complete protein.

But I hear vegetarians have no way of getting B12 except by supplementing. Modern supplements vegetarians get are made from a bacteria developed in the lab. The other way of getting it, the way necessary for much of history, was to eat certain types of meat. It is found in beef if I remember correctly. Why would we need a nutrient that we'd need to eat meat to get if eating meat is so bad?

Metanalysis has a lot of problems with it. For one thing, data is usually skewed because non-statistically significant results are stored in the 'round file.' Journals do not want to publish them though they may be valid research related to the issue, the type of research that should be included in a metanalysis type approach, theoretically.

In some cases, the variables used in different studies are defined differently, and the researcher doing metanalysis may have to use some fuzzy techniques to make two studies be about the same variable. I am not sure if health-related studies suffer the same issues as constructs in the social sciences, though. There is a lot of judgment involved, here, and the researcher has an incentive to make it work and to get the results like all researchers do. Maybe HouseMD could answer that. But I don't know if med school touches on this research methodology stuff that much.
The consumption of meat has been thought to be in direct correlation with the rise in human intelligence in early humans. It's no coincidence that the emergence of hunting tools coincides with rise in brain development. Which makes since as the brain relies heavily on proteins for functioning. Disregard what is a high quality protein source, red meat also is high in Iron, and fish high in essential oils and omega-3s. Plant based protein is often inadequate and is a reason why vegetarians need supplements.

The idea that red meat and to a further extent, Saturated fat, causes heart disease has been a heavily debated topic and loads of peer-reviewed research has taken on both sides. I see consistently lately in the news and health publications how more and more scientists are beginning to believe that processed foods and refined sugars are to blame for heart disease rather than fat. Which means cholesteol isn't as important as it may seem. Not to mention low-fat food has been thrown in our faces for the better part of 4 decades and obesity and diabetes rates have continued to rise.

Here's a few thoughts regarding these studies:
1) Heart disease just 60 years ago wasn't nearly as prevalent as it is today, though I seriously doubt meat consumption has increased that much.

2) How active were the populations that were studied? Vegans and vegetarians in general happen to be more health focused than the average meat eating Joe. High activity levels greatly influence good health as well as lower fat levels.

3) Vegan diets lead to less weight gain because they are lower in calories. A broccoli crown has like 60 calories compared to potato chips. Less adipose tissue means less pressure on the heart and cardiovascular system.

4) What about communities, Native Siberians as an example, whom have a diet very high in animal protein and fat, yet have fairly healthy populations?

5) Vegans are a small subset of the populace. Most of the populace, especially in USA, eat terribly processed diets full of trans fats, excess sugars and sodium, and added hormones and nitrates. Is it the meat that's the issue or terrible food choices?

A former professor of Biology of mine once said that a diet that is as close to natural is always best. Use butter instead of margarine; Mayo instead of Miracle Whip, steak from grass fed cattle, etc.

I'm taking on a second degree in the medical field so I enjoy subjects like these. Here are some further publications about the issue:

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/health/ar ... ity-diets/

https://chriskresser.com/red-meat-cance ... ever-stop/

https://www.newsmax.com/Health/Headline ... id/786570/

Regarding morality, I am a hunter and fish year around. There is few things as rewarding as providing for yourself in a primitive way. With that said I can see where some people cannot stomach the concept of taking a life. As long as we use animals to an extent where they are not driven to endangered levels or habitat destruction then I am fine with using them for products. Torture is a little bit different.
OutWest
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by OutWest » September 6th, 2017, 12:27 am

Contrarian Expatriate wrote:
OutWest wrote:
MrMan wrote:Just think of those poor potatoes. They live out their lives buried under ground, in a confined space. Then, some human plucks the potato out of the only home it has ever known and takes it to a kitchen. WIthout mercy, the cook cuts the poor potatoes eyes off. Then it flays the potato, removing the potatoes skin. The cook may choose to boil the potato, bake it, or fry it in hot oil.

Would you want what happens to the potato to happen to you?
What about those poor carrots? Winston must know, plants have feelings too! Those plants have never been cruel to anyone, yet he brutally rips their bodies apart!
I'm going to find a video showing how they chop up and mutilate vegetables for salads. When you view it, you all will never want to eat salad again!
Give us a heads upon the video. I would like to get some nice rib eyes going first. Here is a relevant hilarious scene from A Night On Earth. Roberto Binigni confesses to having sex with a pumpkin...

https://youtu.be/YygHG9QzQx4
Mark_in_Bangkok
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by Mark_in_Bangkok » December 4th, 2017, 3:33 pm

.
After being a strict vegetarian for 18 years, I returned to eating meat.
Feel stronger and healthier now than I ever did back then.
Digestion and elimination much improved.
Sleep more soundly.
And far less cravings, such as for sugar and bread.

For supper this evening, I cooked a rib-eye steak.
That was supper: no salad, no potato, no garlic bread, just steak.

Imported beef from Australia.
Marbling score: 2-3.
Tender, juicy, flavorful.

More steaks in the freezer, ready for future meals.
.
.
Member: Thailand Expats Email Discussion.
Membership inquiries welcome; send private message to me on this forum.
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Adama
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by Adama » December 4th, 2017, 7:11 pm

That's right, Winston. Hey, Winston. If you had been among the Israelites when God rescued them by His servant Moses, you could have enjoyed being a vegetarian and eating the same bread from heaven that angels get to eat, called manna. Maybe you could have eaten this manna bread. If I remember correctly from the story, it tasted like honey.

Would you have enjoyed that, Winston? No meat at all. Just angel's bread directly from heaven.
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.
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Adama
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by Adama » December 4th, 2017, 7:13 pm

I wonder what percentage of non-ethnic South Asians who are vegetarian, are also involved in some hippie type of movement of some kind. I bet lots of these types of people are into New Age stuff, which really does seem to come out of India anyhow.
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.
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Winston
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by Winston » November 25th, 2018, 12:17 am

Wow check this out. Apparently there is a lot of evidence that Jesus and the early Christians were vegetarian! And that the Bible promotes vegetarianism too!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism

https://www.compassionatespirit.com/wpb ... egetarian/
Genesis 1:29-30
"Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so."

These verse is clearly stated every plant and tree with fruits shall be the only food for human. Animals and every living beings that crawl, swim or fly around earth is not food for human. But God have given them every green plant for food.
James the brother of Jesus, the first leader of the Jerusalem church after Jesus’ departure, was universally acknowledged to be a strict vegetarian, and in fact was raised as a vegetarian (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 2.23.5–6). Why would Jesus’ family raise James as a vegetarian, but not Jesus? The natural conclusion is that Jesus’ parents raised Jesus and James as vegetarians and that this was part of the original gospel message.
See these video presentations below.





Today! Two Podcasts Combined to Create a Presentation Over Ninety Minutes in Length Intended to Be the Most Comprehensive Collection Ever of Vegetarian References Providing Evidence For the Vegetarianism of Yeshua (Jesus), the Apostles, the Jesus Movement (Hebrew Christians, Ebionites,) and Other Expressions of Early Christianity. An Outline, the Major Segments Include the Following:

Evidence That Jesus and The Original Aramaic Christians Were Vegetarians:

Dueling Gospel Traditions — Pro-Meat and Pro-Veg;

What About Those Pesky ‘Fishes and Loaves’?

Textual Variations in Greek Manuscripts;

Was John the Baptist Really A Bug-Eater?

Christianity Before Paul (The Original Hebrew Christians or Ebionites) and the Essene Connection -- The Essene Branch of Judaism Not Just Kosher But Vegetarian;

Thou Shalt Not Kill: The Biblical Basis For Vegetarianism: A Vegetarian Ideal Described In Genesis and Isaiah;

Signing Up Paul to the Vegetarian Cause After All;

Uncovering a Vegetarian Jesus (Yeshua) at the Beginning of Christianity: Vegetarian Sayings of Jesus;

Jesus Stopping Animal Sacrifice in the Temple;

The Vegetarian Apostles (Leadership of the Original Jesus Movement) -- Vegetarian Quotes About the Apostles;

Church Fathers And Other Later Voices Affirming the Existence of the Earlier Veg Tradition;

Inter-Faith Love! An Ebionite Christian author had very nice things to say about those in India who worship One God, follow peaceful customs and laws, and are vegetarian or vegan.

The Gnostics Were Vegetarians;

The Vegetarian Prayer of Thanksgiving in the Nag Hammadi Library (Gnostic Gospels) and Corpus Hermeticum;

Texts I DO NOT CITE: What About Those Modern-Day Essene Gospels of Peace? What About Those Groups That Call Themselves Essenes: "Essene" VS. the More Accurate Term: "Ebionite";

Did Jesus Travel to India? Gospel of Isa, another text I AVOID.

Real Wisdom from the East: The Spiritual and Ethical Reasons Why Saints Advocate Following a Non-violent Vegetarian or Vegan Diet;

Peace Be to You,
James
Spiritual Awakening Radio

* Website:
http://www.SpiritualAwakeningRadio.com
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
HouseMD
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by HouseMD » November 25th, 2018, 12:34 am

Winston wrote:
November 25th, 2018, 12:17 am
Wow check this out. Apparently there is a lot of evidence that Jesus and the early Christians were vegetarian! And that the Bible promotes vegetarianism too!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism

https://www.compassionatespirit.com/wpb ... egetarian/
Genesis 1:29-30
"Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so."

These verse is clearly stated every plant and tree with fruits shall be the only food for human. Animals and every living beings that crawl, swim or fly around earth is not food for human. But God have given them every green plant for food.
James the brother of Jesus, the first leader of the Jerusalem church after Jesus’ departure, was universally acknowledged to be a strict vegetarian, and in fact was raised as a vegetarian (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 2.23.5–6). Why would Jesus’ family raise James as a vegetarian, but not Jesus? The natural conclusion is that Jesus’ parents raised Jesus and James as vegetarians and that this was part of the original gospel message.
See these video presentations below.





Today! Two Podcasts Combined to Create a Presentation Over Ninety Minutes in Length Intended to Be the Most Comprehensive Collection Ever of Vegetarian References Providing Evidence For the Vegetarianism of Yeshua (Jesus), the Apostles, the Jesus Movement (Hebrew Christians, Ebionites,) and Other Expressions of Early Christianity. An Outline, the Major Segments Include the Following:

Evidence That Jesus and The Original Aramaic Christians Were Vegetarians:

Dueling Gospel Traditions — Pro-Meat and Pro-Veg;

What About Those Pesky ‘Fishes and Loaves’?

Textual Variations in Greek Manuscripts;

Was John the Baptist Really A Bug-Eater?

Christianity Before Paul (The Original Hebrew Christians or Ebionites) and the Essene Connection -- The Essene Branch of Judaism Not Just Kosher But Vegetarian;

Thou Shalt Not Kill: The Biblical Basis For Vegetarianism: A Vegetarian Ideal Described In Genesis and Isaiah;

Signing Up Paul to the Vegetarian Cause After All;

Uncovering a Vegetarian Jesus (Yeshua) at the Beginning of Christianity: Vegetarian Sayings of Jesus;

Jesus Stopping Animal Sacrifice in the Temple;

The Vegetarian Apostles (Leadership of the Original Jesus Movement) -- Vegetarian Quotes About the Apostles;

Church Fathers And Other Later Voices Affirming the Existence of the Earlier Veg Tradition;

Inter-Faith Love! An Ebionite Christian author had very nice things to say about those in India who worship One God, follow peaceful customs and laws, and are vegetarian or vegan.

The Gnostics Were Vegetarians;

The Vegetarian Prayer of Thanksgiving in the Nag Hammadi Library (Gnostic Gospels) and Corpus Hermeticum;

Texts I DO NOT CITE: What About Those Modern-Day Essene Gospels of Peace? What About Those Groups That Call Themselves Essenes: "Essene" VS. the More Accurate Term: "Ebionite";

Did Jesus Travel to India? Gospel of Isa, another text I AVOID.

Real Wisdom from the East: The Spiritual and Ethical Reasons Why Saints Advocate Following a Non-violent Vegetarian or Vegan Diet;

Peace Be to You,
James
Spiritual Awakening Radio

* Website:
http://www.SpiritualAwakeningRadio.com
That's great and all but it's totally incorrect
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Winston
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by Winston » November 25th, 2018, 12:51 am

HouseMD wrote:
November 25th, 2018, 12:34 am
Winston wrote:
November 25th, 2018, 12:17 am
Wow check this out. Apparently there is a lot of evidence that Jesus and the early Christians were vegetarian! And that the Bible promotes vegetarianism too!
That's great and all but it's totally incorrect
And how would you know? You are not a Bible expert or historian or religious scholar. Those links and videos actually present A LOT of evidence from the Bible and early Christian history that Christianity and the Bible support vegetarianism. Did you even see the presentations or examine the evidence? Not!

Next time be open minded and try to learn something new that you didn't know before by listening to new information or revelations. Don't just jump to conclusions and assume that you know it all just because you have a huge western ego. :P Dismissing something out of hand or denying it is not the way of a good researcher or truth seeker. :P
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
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Winston
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by Winston » November 25th, 2018, 12:55 am

A Chinese Buddhist cartoon with English subtitles with a story that is GUARANTEED to turn you vegetarian! Watch if you dare! This story will touch you and shock you and make you rethink your meat eating habits. And wake you up too!



More of them:





A Chinese Buddhist master explains how when he was young and a meat eater, all the animals he ate eventually haunted him in his dreams and got revenge on him for eating so many of them. They even broke his leg to teach him a lesson. Chinese with English subs.

Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
HouseMD
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by HouseMD » November 25th, 2018, 12:57 am

Winston wrote:
November 25th, 2018, 12:51 am
HouseMD wrote:
November 25th, 2018, 12:34 am
Winston wrote:
November 25th, 2018, 12:17 am
Wow check this out. Apparently there is a lot of evidence that Jesus and the early Christians were vegetarian! And that the Bible promotes vegetarianism too!
That's great and all but it's totally incorrect
And how would you know? You are not a Bible expert or historian or religious scholar. Those links and videos actually present A LOT of evidence from the Bible and early Christian history that Christianity and the Bible support vegetarianism. Did you even see the presentations or examine the evidence? Not!

Next time be open minded and try to learn something new that you didn't know before by listening to new information or revelations. Don't just jump to conclusions and assume that you know it all just because you have a huge western ego. :P Dismissing something out of hand or denying it is not the way of a good researcher or truth seeker. :P
I'm much more well read than you, and I'll spare retyping all of the arguments against your position and leave it to this analysis: https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family ... -the-bible
HouseMD
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Re: Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

Post by HouseMD » November 25th, 2018, 12:59 am

Winston wrote:
November 25th, 2018, 12:55 am
A Chinese Buddhist cartoon with English subtitles with a story that is GUARANTEED to turn you vegetarian! Watch if you dare! This story will touch you and shock you and make you rethink your meat eating habits. And wake you up too!



More of them:





A Chinese Buddhist master explains how when he was young and a meat eater, all the animals he ate eventually haunted him in his dreams and got revenge on him for eating so many of them. They even broke his leg to teach him a lesson. Chinese with English subs.

I can't imagine being so weak minded that my opinion flips completely every time I watch a cartoon
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