Winston wrote:

FuzzX, that story sounds a bit pretentious and black and white. No guy is liked by everyone. Not even Tom Cruise is.

If there were a formula or technique for creating attraction, everyone would use it. There may be a formula that helps yeah. But it's not easy and doesn't work for everyone.

Every attempt to put humans into formulas fail. History has taught us that. And so has experience.

Like Rock said, it's like a martial art you learn little by little. But even then, it's not going to make a mega difference, though it may help a little. Even if formulas and techniques do exist that create attraction, they are not all powerful and have their limits.

When someone is selling something, they always overexaggerate the claims.

Now love, that's another matter. Surely you agree that "true love" is not controllable by formulas or techniques, don't you? Lots of women love men who do all the wrong things.

You guys are forgetting something. Not all girls like bad boys. It's young ones and airheads that do. I know plenty of girls who do not like bad boys.

Also, just cause a guy is needy doesn't mean he's unattractive. If a girl really loves him, she will not mind his neediness and will also show her neediness to him too. It's only when she isn't into him and is looking for excuses to blow him off does she use his "neediness" as an excuse to reject him further.

I don't think anyone can score with all women. Its not a digital 0 or 1, its an analog percentage.

You misunderstood my analogy with martial arts. Yellow belt is a beginning level. If someone practices hardcore fighting techniques at a young age, say Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, with a decent club for a few years, you can be almost sure it will yield a mega improvement in his practical street fighting skills.

Please, get over it being formulas and techniques. Its better to see PU as an art form. Different things will work well for different people. Part of it is about finding out what works best for you. Mystery and Style are two well known gurus. But they have very different ways of succeeding with women. I mean, one of them is a scruffy long haired 198 cm magician and the other is a short and balding writer. One thing they do have in common though - neither is a victim of left brain thinking. They're both very creative in their own ways and understand women quite well.

Finally, you're right that not all girls like 'bad boys', especially in a place like Taiwan. But I can tell you, most are not attracted to weakness. Being wimpy or needy will at best usually get you into the 'friends zone'. If a woman here really wants a wussy, she is probably seeking an unhealthy situation where she can control the guy and have all the power.

Being strong as a man can be very different than being a bad boy. Here are some examples of a strong man: He does not tolerate disrespect and knows how to handle shit tests. He has clear boundaries and enforces them whenever challenged. He is prepared to walk without a show of emotion of the girl does not treat him right. He is not needy and can handle life. He naturally takes the lead on dates and makes the girl feel safe and comfortable. None of those behaviors or attitudes necessarily makes someone a bad boy.

I think we are just arguing semantics...

There isn't any technique you can learn in two minutes to make you popular with chix...as I've said it took me 5 or 6 years to really master the principles of PUA and put them to use.

True Love, vibes and paranormal? Winston... are you serious?? I don't know if that even exists... more like true infatuation. Try arguing true love with your girlfriend as shes breaking up with you because she loves you but isn't IN LOVE with you anymore.

I think ALL girls have a bad boy fantasy, even if they tell you otherwise. Especially good girls...

Just like ALL guys fantasize at least once in their life about having that good innocent girl next door type but usually settle for whatever they can get.

How many people actually tell you what they think point blank? Getting a girl to tell you her inner most fantasies is like pulling teeth on a shark.

My definition of bad boy is just someone who doesn't follow the rules 100% of the time. You don't have to be a convict or nut job just someone that isn't like all the rest of the guys that she currently dates. Bugs Bunny is sort of a bad boy... I bet all the girl toons think about him at night when they are looking at their current Elmer Fudd.

Oh and btw when I say ALL I mean... most.

Chanta: I'm curious dude since you say you are Korean (I'm assuming born and raised in Korea) do you like Starcraft? I'm going back to Korea as soon as I finish my degree... I hate kimchi but I love the women and the culture.

Rock wrote:

Finally, you're right that not all girls like 'bad boys', especially in a place like Taiwan. But I can tell you, most are not attracted to weakness. Being wimpy or needy will at best usually get you into the 'friends zone'. If a woman here really wants a wussy, she is probably seeking an unhealthy situation where she can control the guy and have all the power.

Being strong as a man can be very different than being a bad boy. Here are some examples of a strong man: He does not tolerate disrespect and knows how to handle shit tests. He has clear boundaries and enforces them whenever challenged. He is prepared to walk without a show of emotion of the girl does not treat him right. He is not needy and can handle life. He naturally takes the lead on dates and makes the girl feel safe and comfortable. None of those behaviors or attitudes necessarily makes someone a bad boy.

Now wait a second. Let's define what we mean here. Real life is not like Hollywood where every guy fits a particular stereotype. Most guys are a mixture of strengths and weaknesses, not all one or the other. Guys who are all wimpy and weak and needy or who are all brave and confident are usually depicted in movies or in PUA stories like those told by David DeAngelo. But in real life it's not like that. Likewise, most people in real life are not all good or all bad like in the movies either.

Take me for example.

I am very brave at some things but wimpy in others. I am not afraid to speak out against authority if I feel that the truth and evidence is on my side, as you know. And I am not afraid of confrontation face to face. I am not afraid of being different. I am less afraid of public speaking than most. And I am not afraid to approach girls that I don't know. But I am afraid of heights. I cannot get on a cable car towed by cables in the air, or ski lifts, or walk on wooden bridges high in the air. And I cannot tolerate eye doctors lifting my eyelids or pinching my eyeballs (like they do in Taiwan, I have no frickin idea why they do that but it hurts like hell and I immediately pull away). Yet my dad can tolerate that.

So, am I a wimp or a brave man? You tell me.

If a long time girlfriend leaves you, it's natural to feel needy and go into withdrawal symptoms. That is a natural psychological effect that is well documented. It's like trying to quit drugs cold turkey. But that doesn't mean you're weak or needy. Romantic love is addictive by nature. Few people can just break it off and forget about someone.

It's not realistic to turn off your feelings like a light switch, if you've lived with someone for years. Western society may expect this. But it's not realistic.

I've never heard of a woman saying that she's attracted to a man because he's "strong and not needy". People are strong in different ways. There is no general strong that applies to all qualities.

Even a weak man can be strong in other areas that you don't see, if you get to know him. Some women will pick up on his hidden strengths, while others won't. It's overgeneralizing to classify men into groups of strong and weak, and oversimplistic as well, don't you think?

I find that the more female friends a guy has, and has been able to get to know them as individuals, the less he generalizes about them. And the less a guy gets to know women on a personal deep level, the more he generalizes them and makes simple statements like "they all fantasize about bad boys, they are all drawn to power and money" etc. Guys who have close female friends that they have a BOND and MENTAL connection with, do not say those things. It's the guys who have no use for women other than sex that usually make those type of generalizations.

That's my experience. Anyone concur?


_________________
"The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." - H. L. Mencken

"Just look at us. Everything is backwards. Everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religion destroys spirituality." - Michael Ellner

"The greatest awakening I underwent in my travels is that nations in reality are the exact opposite of how they are depicted in the media." - Ladislav

FuzzX wrote:

I think we are just arguing semantics...

There isn't any technique you can learn in two minutes to make you popular with chix...as I've said it took me 5 or 6 years to really master the principles of PUA and put them to use.

True Love, vibes and paranormal? Winston... are you serious?? I don't know if that even exists... more like true infatuation. Try arguing true love with your girlfriend as shes breaking up with you because she loves you but isn't IN LOVE with you anymore.

I think ALL girls have a bad boy fantasy, even if they tell you otherwise. Especially good girls...

Just like ALL guys fantasize at least once in their life about having that good innocent girl next door type but usually settle for whatever they can get.

How many people actually tell you what they think point blank? Getting a girl to tell you her inner most fantasies is like pulling teeth on a shark.

My definition of bad boy is just someone who doesn't follow the rules 100% of the time. You don't have to be a convict or nut job just someone that isn't like all the rest of the guys that she currently dates. Bugs Bunny is sort of a bad boy... I bet all the girl toons think about him at night when they are looking at their current Elmer Fudd.

Oh and btw when I say ALL I mean... most.

Chanta: I'm curious dude since you say you are Korean (I'm assuming born and raised in Korea) do you like Starcraft? I'm going back to Korea as soon as I finish my degree... I hate kimchi but I love the women and the culture.

Yeah there is such a thing as true love, soulmates, etc. There are plenty of couples that attest to it. How can you not know that?

It doesn't mean such things last forever though. Richard Bach, author of the great spiritual book "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" has had several soulmates in his life and truly accepts this, especially after his divorce. He later wrote a book called "Soulmates" too.

I do not agree that all girls have a bad boy fantasy. Where is the proof of that? Isn't that just your guess? If you ask women themselves, most will not agree. They will only tell you that SOME girls do, but not all, and those that do tend to have issues.

If all girls liked bad boys, you would see bad boys in fashion magazines. But you don't. Instead, you see male models who look yuppy, preppy and fit, or you see hip hop R&B types.

So by "bad boy" you do not mean a rebel on a motorcycle with a black jacket right?

You said that by bad boy, you mean someone who doesn't follow rules. Well I don't follow rules. But that doesn't create attraction in women! How do you explain that?!

Explain this one too: (both FuzzX and Rock, if you will)

Last year at the airport in Taipei, I met a young cute Taiwanese girl there who helped me clear up some papers there (since I had never joined the Taiwan army as is required for every male, so I need to obtain clearance to leave the country). Afterward we got to talking. She seemed nice.

Later I told her that mandatory conscripting all males in the country for 2 years of military service was stupid and an infringement upon their rights, and that had I grown up in Taiwan I would have refused it.

She replied "But you have you to". I told her that I'd fight and defy the system. She again said, "But you can't. You have to obey it."

After that, I could tell she was turned off and desired less and less to talk to me. My bravery in defying authority did not create any admiration in her at all.

This has happened with many Taiwanese girls I know. As soon as I tell them that I'm a rebel and that I defy authority and think outside the box and do not conform, and that I'm good at debunking conventional thought, it TURNS THEM OFF. IT DOES NOT CREATE ATTRACTION.

This is one reason why I do not vibe well with Chinese. They can sense in my vibe that I am not narrow and obedient and conformist. And that seems to immediately turn them off.

Why is that? If all Taiwanese girls like bad boys or guys who defy the rules and authority, then how do you explain this?!?!?!?!?!?!?



Last edited by Winston on Tue May 25, 2010 3:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
_________________
"The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." - H. L. Mencken

"Just look at us. Everything is backwards. Everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religion destroys spirituality." - Michael Ellner

"The greatest awakening I underwent in my travels is that nations in reality are the exact opposite of how they are depicted in the media." - Ladislav

To FuzzX, Rock, and all other PUA believers:

I have another question for you.

How do you explain my girlfriend Dianne's unfettering attraction to me?

I mean, she said that she doesn't think I'm handsome. I am not rich or powerful either. In fact, rich men have offered her big monthly allowances if she would be theirs, but she didn't like them.

I did not use any PUA techniques with her either, not even from the very start.

So how do your PUA theories explain this?

She does not know why she is attracted to me and cannot explain it in logical terms.

Some things are like that. They are MYSTERIES and UNEXPLAINABLE.

Why can't you accept that?

Great minds say we should embrace the mysterious. But many western guys think that everything should be explained with theories and formulaic concepts.

But the truth is, many things cannot be explained.

You will also find that many women will tell you that the man they ended up choosing was not usually their type, but something about him drew them and made them feel "just right". Now that is not something logical or explainable by formulaic concepts.

So what do you guys do with that? How do you fit that into your paradigm and view of reality?

Not everything can be explained by PUA, looks, power or even money.

Some things are mysteries, due to intangible unknowns, unexplainable, subjective, etc. Why can't you embrace the mysterious? Why are you trying to make everything fit into formulas when they don't?


_________________
"The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." - H. L. Mencken

"Just look at us. Everything is backwards. Everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religion destroys spirituality." - Michael Ellner

"The greatest awakening I underwent in my travels is that nations in reality are the exact opposite of how they are depicted in the media." - Ladislav

Winston wrote:

To FuzzX, Rock, and all other PUA believers:

I have another question for you.

How do you explain my girlfriend Dianne's unfettering attraction to me?

I mean, she said that she doesn't think I'm handsome. I am not rich or powerful either. In fact, rich men have offered her big monthly allowances if she would be theirs, but she didn't like them.

I did not use any PUA techniques with her either, not even from the very start.

So how do your PUA theories explain this?

She does not know why she is attracted to me and cannot explain it in logical terms.

Some things are like that. They are MYSTERIES and UNEXPLAINABLE.

Why can't you accept that?

Great minds say we should embrace the mysterious. But many western guys think that everything should be explained with theories and formulaic concepts.

But the truth is, many things cannot be explained.

You will also find that many women will tell you that the man they ended up choosing was not usually their type, but something about him drew them and made them feel "just right". Now that is not something logical or explainable by formulaic concepts.

So what do you guys do with that? How do you fit that into your paradigm and view of reality?

Not everything can be explained by PUA, looks, power or even money.

Some things are mysteries, due to intangible unknowns, unexplainable, subjective, etc. Why can't you embrace the mysterious? Why are you trying to make everything fit into formulas when they don't?

Winston

I'll answer this one first because its the easiest. I mentioned in a recent post that there will be a subset of girls who may like you so much from the outset that you can succeed with them in spite of making some critical mistakes. Sometimes, you meet a girl who falls for you at first site or something close to that. You need to really screw up or turn out very different from what the girl's first image of you was to push her away. Some (very lucky) guys get a lot more of these than most others and they are probably least in need of help.

Personally, I would not have had a very interesting dating life if I just stuck with these types (the ones who dug me at first meeting and made it clear to me). The work I put-in expanded my opportunities a lot.

I agree with you that there will always be some mystery which can not be explained by any existing framework or theory. Some things happen which just don't make sense. The full body of PU theories can be considered an art and is far from perfect. If it was perfect and you mastered it, you could use it to successfully attract any woman, at any time and in any place. It ain't that, not by a long shot. But I do believe at least parts of it works well enough for many guys that if they take it to a high enough level, it will dramatically improve their dating and marriage prospects. Isn't that good enough to make it worthwhile for some?

Winston wrote:

Now wait a second. Let's define what we mean here. Real life is not like Hollywood where every guy fits a particular stereotype. Most guys are a mixture of strengths and weaknesses, not all one or the other. Guys who are all wimpy and weak and needy or who are all brave and confident are usually depicted in movies or in PUA stories like those told by David DeAngelo. But in real life it's not like that. Likewise, most people in real life are not all good or all bad like in the movies either.

Take me for example.

I am very brave at some things but wimpy in others. I am not afraid to speak out against authority if I feel that the truth and evidence is on my side, as you know. And I am not afraid of confrontation face to face. I am not afraid of being different. I am less afraid of public speaking than most. And I am not afraid to approach girls that I don't know. But I am afraid of heights. I cannot get on a cable car towed by cables in the air, or ski lifts, or walk on wooden bridges high in the air. And I cannot tolerate eye doctors lifting my eyelids or pinching my eyeballs (like they do in Taiwan, I have no frickin idea why they do that but it hurts like hell and I immediately pull away). Yet my dad can tolerate that.

So, am I a wimp or a brave man? You tell me.

If a long time girlfriend leaves you, it's natural to feel needy and go into withdrawal symptoms. That is a natural psychological effect that is well documented. It's like trying to quit drugs cold turkey. But that doesn't mean you're weak or needy. Romantic love is addictive by nature. Few people can just break it off and forget about someone.

It's not realistic to turn off your feelings like a light switch, if you've lived with someone for years. Western society may expect this. But it's not realistic.

I've never heard of a woman saying that she's attracted to a man because he's "strong and not needy". People are strong in different ways. There is no general strong that applies to all qualities.

Even a weak man can be strong in other areas that you don't see, if you get to know him. Some women will pick up on his hidden strengths, while others won't. It's overgeneralizing to classify men into groups of strong and weak, and oversimplistic as well, don't you think?

I find that the more female friends a guy has, and has been able to get to know them as individuals, the less he generalizes about them. And the less a guy gets to know women on a personal deep level, the more he generalizes them and makes simple statements like "they all fantasize about bad boys, they are all drawn to power and money" etc. Guys who have close female friends that they have a BOND and MENTAL connection with, do not say those things. It's the guys who have no use for women other than sex that usually make those type of generalizations.

That's my experience. Anyone concur?

Screw Hollywood and its stereotypes. When I speak of strength, I am talking about it in the context of the relationship. Even some macho guys can be real wimps with women they pursue or date. Being afraid of heights, eye doctors, etc. is no big deal and is not what I was talking about before.

When you accommodate a girl like a puppy, agree with everything she says, try to hard to please her, if you allow her to disrespect her, buy her whatever she wants, let others disrespect you in front of her, don’t have a clear idea of what to do on the date, etc. you are generally behaving in a weak, boring, and unattractive way. Will some girls like you for this? Perhaps. But I’m thoroughly convinced that they are the exception, not the rule.


If a girl figures out you really want her from day one and will do almost anything to accommodate her, she knows she has the power. Common sense says that she should like that and be happy about it, right? Well, it often backfires. She will think less of you. She got you with no effort. And that is not an attractive trait.

I can tell you, when women are too easy, I tend not to value them or respect them as much. I don’t do it consciously. It’s just natural. My last girlfriend was more my type physically than my current one. But she gave herself to me 100% right in the beginning. She basically was happy to conform completely to my lifestyle and interests and let me be the boss 100%. That was great in a way but it did not spark a lot of natural tension or emotion so I got bored with it. My current one was more challenging and had strong ideas on a lot of things. Somehow, she attracted me more and eventually, I got very attached to the relationship.

Now if a long time (multi year) close girlfriend leaves you or you leave her, its very different than a girl you are just getting to know. You two are in many ways like one. Both of you will probably suffer painful withdrawal and you have some license to act weak in these circumstances. Only a super cold reptile type could turn on and off his feelings like a light switch. My whole focus was on women who are relatively new to your life. And for these, you are not in love, just lust.

Now back to another point I made in a previous post. You mentioned that you’ve never heard a woman say she’s attracted to a man because he’s ‘strong and not needy’. Don’t pay so much attention to what they say. Focus on their behavior. Reality lies in what they do, not what they say.

You say it’s over generalizing to classify men as strong, weak, etc. What about the things you say about Asians / Taiwanese / Chinese??? Aren’t those broad generalizations??? I’m the one who said that every girl is different, even in Taiwan, and that the approach and pick-up process is a heuristic.

But in defense of generalizations, they are not perfect. But they can be useful recognitions of patterns. When pursuing a goal, they can improve our odds if they are based on previous trial and error experience or observations.

By the way, what is your definition of a lot of female friends? And do they have to all be at the same time?

FuzzX,

I am also curious..I take it your not Korean. Since you visited Korea..I'm what they call a kyopo. Born in Korea but move to the states when I was a baby and no I don't play any video games. Growing up I wanted to break allot of stereotypes about Asians so got into weight lifting , boxing..etc..I notice a trend for younger Asian guys doing the same. WHo knows?

I take it your white guy...and you mention that your going back to Korea. As a ESL teacher ? or somethine else? No offense almost most of the expat esl teachers I met in Korea were weird or had some drinking problem not all of them but many of them but this is Korea we are talking about where you see people drinking soju bottle right after work.

I think that's part of the reason why they are in Korea and also the other reason is most of those guys have Asian fetish.

Wu,

I could see your side and I want to be fair with you. Pick up is not easy. It does have a high quit rate.
It's like sales. Some people are better at it than others but to be really good at sales they have to take the time to learn to endure the process to get better at it.

I think what your doing is over generalizing. To you it's like if it didn't work for you than it can't work for anyone else.
Honestly, for me I'm not a great pua or even a good one but after taking my boot camp and reading some pick up material I was better equip talking to and approaching women. I wouldn't say I have a great dating life but I did date more girls than every before.

You can get a good looking guy who can be unattractive...vs. a homely guy who is attractive. I notice that the guy who is attractive gets the girl. It's not always about the muscles or height...it helps but it's more about being attractive.

But to be fair I see your point. This is not easy to do and for some guys it takes a long time to get good at it...

Yup, I'm white and I consider myself a multicultural person in that I've dated girls from multiple cultures.

Chanta76: I think you are pretty spot on in your observation but it covers 90% of ESL teacher's in the world not just Korea. www.englishteacherx.com Teaching is a kick ass job but you need a special kind of person to be able to leave the west, the LARGE majority of people I talk to have a hard time even conceptualizing being away from their city let alone traveling across the world. You have to be extremely SELF motivated to leave the west. Even if the country is completely hostile, very few will ever consider leaving.

Asian fetish is no different than White Fetish. I've met TONS of Asian guys who ONLY date white girls... It works both ways. I don't want my kids to be 100% white either....boring.. what advantage would that give them? First of all having dual citizenship would be fantastic for a kid + the mix of culture and speaking at least two languages? Why would you look down on someone for wanting that?

I like the culture in S.K. because it is extremely child centric at least that's what I experienced when I was there teaching... kids had every single toy you could imagine, even the poor ones had a lot of toys. There was also a strong emphasis on becoming well educated which I think is very important and keeps kids out of trouble. I've always been a big fan of toys and video games and having fun when you are a kid and I'd like to find a girl who thinks the same way.

Winston I'm surprised that you would listen to a girl in Taiwan yet completely reject what a woman says in the USA. I think Rock explained it better than I can... when it comes to listening to a woman's point of view you can sum up everything in one thought: actions speak louder than words. The first rule of PUA is NEVER listen to what a girl says because they will all tell you they are angels while they are getting ready to meet their bad guys.

All girls man.. all girls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqcd10sX2H4

I'm not going to argue with you on this... if you want to know why it works, try it. Otherwise if what you're doing is working for you then keeping doing it.