momopi wrote:

Winston wrote:

Interesting book. But those are different types of problems it addresses. And since you haven't seen Zeitgeist all the way through, and spent the two hours to watch it with an objective mind, you can't really evaluate it properly. If you're going to critique something, you gotta at least watch it first, rather than just listen to the words of establishment propagandists.
Did you take the blue pill or the red pill? See these clips and decide:
Awesome clips debunking the mainstream media's lies and propaganda.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGSLXVnc_2o

I've watched the zeitgeist and showed it to my friends at a party ("over the hill" ex Def Con type crowd). We pretty much pointed our fingers at it and laughed. It's like 1989 again when we had tons of fun spinning bullshit over BBS networks to "rebel without a clue" idiots.

Look, Betty Friedan didn't sit in a basement and jerk to youtube videos, or try to get others to join her in a giant circle jerk hoping that "something will happen eventually". If you're serious about starting some kind of revolution, stop wasting your time here, get off your butt and do something of real substance.


1st Lesson: "Propaganda" is not a dirty word. If your goal is to influence the attitudes of people toward a cause or position, learn to use propaganda.

Did you show them Zeitgeist Addendum? That gets into the real meat of the movement. It's not something you watch for laughs. You gotta watch it and concentrate while focusing and contemplating each point. It's not a party movie for laughs. You rent comedies for that.

What did Betty do? The Zeitgeist movement does a lot, what it can. See their forum and you will see. They have meetings and chapters.

But anyway, you can't even answer basic questions, like how 757's can do spiral acrobatic maneuvers that 30 year veteran airline pilots say it wasn't designed to do. Nor have you explain simple things like how a 757 can move at 500mph while 10 feet above ground. Nor have you explained how amateur pilots who can't fly small planes flew 757's and did maneuvers that expert pilots would not feel confident doing. Nor have you explained how fire alone could collapse a skyscraper in 6 seconds, which has never ever happened before. You NEVER EVER explained any of that. Not even one question! So how can you evaluate something as complicated as Zeitgeist? You don't seem qualified. You are not a pilot and have never flown. Yet you know better than expert pilots who flew 100 combat missions in the air force??!!

You refuse to go down the rabbit hole. Instead you sit there and laugh at it. Laughing doesn't solve the problems. It's denial. Laughing at serious things does NOTHING to solve the problem. Nor does it debunk anything. I've checkmated you on these issues so many times. When will you learn from it?

PS - Propaganda is dirty if it contains lies and causes people to die for corporate greed and power.


_________________
"The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." - H. L. Mencken

"Just look at us. Everything is backwards. Everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religion destroys spirituality." - Michael Ellner

"The greatest awakening I underwent in my travels is that nations in reality are the exact opposite of how they are depicted in the media." - Ladislav

1, The questions have already been answered here:
http://www.happierabroad.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20733&highlight=pilots#20733

2. If you do not accept the answer, that is your problem. Nor will I waste any more time on this bullsh*t without being financially compensated for my time. You know my paypal address, send money and I might reconsider. DO NOT bother addressing any conspriacy crap question to me without payment.

3. Feel free to spin your conspiracy stuff all you want. In another year, you might feel depressed again for not having accomplished much. There's a reason for that (see #4).

4. The biggest lie with the "truth movement" is not the conspiracy theory itself, rather, it's the promise that "knowing" will somehow, some day, lead to "change". This, is a false promise to mentally weak losers who are prone to conspiracy theories, because they don't want to take responsibility for their own life and want to believe that some evil power behind the curtain is responsible for everything that went wrong.

5. If you're serious about political activism, don't waste your time here, don't jump on other people's bandwagon, and don't depend on others telling you want to do (advisers are crutches). Figure it out yourself.

momopi wrote:

1, The questions have already been answered here:
http://www.happierabroad.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20733&highlight=pilots#20733

2. If you do not accept the answer, that is your problem. Nor will I waste any more time on this bullsh*t without being financially compensated for my time. You know my paypal address, send money and I might reconsider. DO NOT bother addressing any conspriacy crap question to me without payment.

3. Feel free to spin your conspiracy stuff all you want. In another year, you might feel depressed again for not having accomplished much. There's a reason for that (see #4).

4. The biggest lie with the "truth movement" is not the conspiracy theory itself, rather, it's the promise that "knowing" will somehow, some day, lead to "change". This, is a false promise to mentally weak losers who are prone to conspiracy theories, because they don't want to take responsibility for their own life and want to believe that some evil power behind the curtain is responsible for everything that went wrong.

5. If you're serious about political activism, don't waste your time here, don't jump on other people's bandwagon, and don't depend on others telling you want to do (advisers are crutches). Figure it out yourself.

Use some wisdom here. We can all try to take control of our lives, but the reality is that there are many things we can't control, such as the Federal Reserve, phony war on terror, etc. Nothing wrong with exposing them. It's not losers that believe in conspiracies. Highly credible people do too, based on the EVIDENCE. Do you understand the word "evidence"?

You are also wrong that knowing things will not change things. Mass movements are what bring real change. Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights Movement of the 60's are an example of that. Noam Chomsky even admits that change occurs at the grass roots level. The real power is in the people. Authority knows this, so it has to divide us and isolate us and set us against one another. There's a LESSON for you.

Ok I just read your post linked above, and sorry, no cigar. You did NOT answer my questions specifically. You merely went off on a tangent. That's a FACT.

Fact is, you can't answer the question, so you deter from the topic, make ad hominem attacks, use red herrings, etc. These are standard tactics. Nothing new. But they accomplish nothing.

Fact is, you are not an authority on conspiracies or truth. You are good in certain areas and practical things. But you are very left brained and do not see the big picture.

If you don't want to answer the questions about 9/11, then fine, don't. But ridicule is not an answer, and neither are red herrings. You seem incapable of having a serious discussion about such things. It's like you have a big emotional bias or block in this area and cannot behave rationally about them for some reason.

About things you don't know, such as the paranormal, you don't say "I don't know" like a reasonable person would. Instead, you just laugh and ridicule them. That proves NOTHING.

My life is not about conspiracy. This is about the truth. It goes beyond my life and yours and any of us here. You aren't adding any value to the search for truth here. This isn't your cup of tea. So why do you act arrogant about it? Just be humble and know your place, and say "I don't know. This isn't my area. I haven't researched it."

Conspiracies are a real part of life. The rest of the world knows that. Why do you believe that they should not be exposed? Why are you against truth? Isn't it because you worship power and authority, like you implied before?

I'm not into political activism. But I do like to share important info and truths. Truth is my God, but it doesn't seem to be yours?

What do you do to fight evil and oppression? What do you do to help end suffering? If nothing, then who are you to judge me or others in these areas? Unless you're a person who has helped change the world for the better or revolutionized things, or brought down or exposed evil, then who are you to say that we're wasting our time by learning about things deep in the rabbit hole?

What are your qualifications? What makes you right and other brilliant people with high IQ's, like Peter Joseph, wrong? When Peter Joseph goes before his fans, he gets a big applause. Do you get applause when you speak before crowds?

A lot of people are suffering and dying out there. This isn't about me or you. It's about billions of people suffering in the world. If you have an answer to help them, then start your own movement. Make your arguments and thesis. If not, then don't complain and judge others who do spread a message of hope. What are your solutions for the billions of suffering people in the world, and for all the injustice inherent in the system?

What do you hope to accomplish with your ridicule and denial and red herrings? It accomplishes NOTHING. You aren't contributing to truth, justice or solutions here. Others are. But you aren't. So why don't you know your place and humble yourself, instead of acting like God?

I don't pretend to be an expert in basketball strategy, so why do you pretend to be an authority on conspiracies?

Without googling anything, how much do you really know about conspiracy evidence? Do you know who Mike Ruppert is and what happened to him when he was a policeman, without googling it up? Or Ted Gunderson? A reasonable person does not pretend to be an authority in areas that he is not. I sure wouldn't.

BellaRuth does not like sci fi, and does not pretend to be an expert on Doctor Who, for instance. So why should you pretend to be an expert in alternative research when you aren't? Illogical.

If you're going to argue intelligently, then state your thesis, supporting arguments/evidence/reasons, and conclusion. That is the serious way to discuss and argue about important matters.

Otherwise, ridicule and one liners do nothing but discredit yourself. Don't you see that? The lesson for you here is that ridicule does NOT debunk anything.

Suppose we played chess, and you had no strategy or good moves, so you lost the game quickly. Then afterward, instead of saying "you won, good game" you ridiculed me with ad hominem attacks. Wouldn't that make you an authority on chess? Would that contribute anything beneficial? Nope. So why do you do that in this case?

It seems that you have a big emotional bias or block in this area and cannot behave rationally about them for some reason, so you explode and use ridicule/insults toward everything in the conspiracy movement, using ad hominem attacks rather than logic or wisdom or valid arguments. This is perhaps one of your "achilles heels". Like they say, some people are very smart in some areas, but not in other areas.

If you don't wish to discuss conspiracies, then fine, I won't ask you any more questions about 9/11. But to be fair, you should not pretend to be an authority in areas that you are not. Isn't that reasonable?

Calm down and try to be rational.


_________________
"The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." - H. L. Mencken

"Just look at us. Everything is backwards. Everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religion destroys spirituality." - Michael Ellner

"The greatest awakening I underwent in my travels is that nations in reality are the exact opposite of how they are depicted in the media." - Ladislav

Great entertainment guys! Keep-up the good work.

Winston wrote:

Use some wisdom here. We can all try to take control of our lives, but the reality is that there are many things we can't control, such as the Federal Reserve, phony war on terror, etc. Nothing wrong with exposing them. It's not losers that believe in conspiracies. Highly credible people do too, based on the EVIDENCE. Do you understand the word "evidence"?
<snip>
I'm not into political activism. But I do like to share important info and truths. Truth is my God, but it doesn't seem to be yours?
<snip>
What do you do to fight evil and oppression? What do you do to help end suffering? If nothing, then who are you to judge me or others in these areas? Unless you're a person who has helped change the world for the better or revolutionized things, or brought down or exposed evil, then who are you to say that we're wasting our time by learning about things deep in the rabbit hole?

1. In other words, you're not interested in actually doing anything, other than self-gratifcation.

2. There is no god, I have no need for such hypothesis and it's not even worth an upper case.

3. What do I think about suffering? Ask me what I think of starving people in Africa: I think we should stop sending food aid.

Momopi,
A few more important points I want to make.

First, it is not true that only "losers who don't want to take responsibility for their lives" believe in conspiracies. There may be SOME losers who believe in conspiracies, yes. But don't generalize here. I can name many who aren't.

Gore Vidal, featured in the film "Zero An Investigation into 9/11" shares the same beliefs that I do about conspiracies, yet he's led a rich full successful life and moved in elite circles.

Many of the experts featured in that film and others, are retired military, government or aviation professionals with a lifetime of career service. They were NOT losers. Remember that.

You are using the ridiculing tactics of the mainstream media, whom we all hate on here, to ridicule anyone who challenges established views and propaganda by calling everyone "a loser with mental problems" if they believe in alternative things. Nice try, but we see through it.

There are also many professionals who support 9/11 Truth that you can see on www.patriotsquestion911.com

You see Momopi, some people are VERY PASSIONATE about truth and justice. Others aren't. You happen to be one of those who aren't.

But what right do you have to ridicule those who are passionate about truth and justice and call them losers?

Think about this. If you had a loved one who died on 9/11, and you felt the official story didn't add up, wouldn't you want the truth about your loved one's death exposed?

That's what this father who lost his son on 9/11 wants. See his comment at the end of this clip. It's very heart touching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz7gxj4jYeM

So why do you ridicule those like him and call them losers?!?!?!?!?!? That's not right. Please think about your narrowness and prejudice.


_________________
"The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." - H. L. Mencken

"Just look at us. Everything is backwards. Everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religion destroys spirituality." - Michael Ellner

"The greatest awakening I underwent in my travels is that nations in reality are the exact opposite of how they are depicted in the media." - Ladislav

momopi wrote:

Winston wrote:

Use some wisdom here. We can all try to take control of our lives, but the reality is that there are many things we can't control, such as the Federal Reserve, phony war on terror, etc. Nothing wrong with exposing them. It's not losers that believe in conspiracies. Highly credible people do too, based on the EVIDENCE. Do you understand the word "evidence"?
<snip>
I'm not into political activism. But I do like to share important info and truths. Truth is my God, but it doesn't seem to be yours?
<snip>
What do you do to fight evil and oppression? What do you do to help end suffering? If nothing, then who are you to judge me or others in these areas? Unless you're a person who has helped change the world for the better or revolutionized things, or brought down or exposed evil, then who are you to say that we're wasting our time by learning about things deep in the rabbit hole?

1. In other words, you're not interested in actually doing anything, other than self-gratifcation.

2. There is no god, I have no need for such hypothesis and it's not even worth an upper case.

3. What do I think about suffering? Ask me what I think of starving people in Africa: I think we should stop sending food aid.

1. I didn't say that I don't want to do anything. I am doing something. I'm changing myself and helping to spread awareness. Remember, knowledge is power.

2. There is no God? Have you searched the whole universe and every dimension to find that out? You haven't even left planet Earth, so how do you know what's in the rest of the cosmos?! Wow. Again, you claim to be omnipotent when you are not.

I wonder, did something terrible happen in your life that made you believe that God can't exist because if he did, he wouldn't have allowed it? If so, that's very common.

3. That is cruel and cold. You must be attuned to low consciousness and vibrations to have no compassion for others or for Mother Earth. So basically, you have no solutions for the billions who suffer in the world. Very sad. Well then, let others who do, do their thing and stop judging them. You have a right to make your choices, but not a right to declare yourself an authority in areas that you aren't.


_________________
"The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." - H. L. Mencken

"Just look at us. Everything is backwards. Everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religion destroys spirituality." - Michael Ellner

"The greatest awakening I underwent in my travels is that nations in reality are the exact opposite of how they are depicted in the media." - Ladislav

Rock wrote:

Great entertainment guys! Keep-up the good work.

Entertainment, is posting 2 lines on your lunch break, and have someone stay up until 2am to type a 2 page angry tirade in reply.

Winston wrote:

1. I didn't say that I don't want to do anything. I am doing something. I'm changing myself and helping to spread awareness. Remember, knowledge is power.

What is your action plan?


If you don't have one, here's a simple 8-step template:

1. List "action steps" from #1-#xx, define what will be done with each step. Remember, this is your own action plan, not someone else's.

2. Timeline: estimated time for completion

3. Resources: people, $, influences, propaganda, 007 agents, etc.

4. Responsibilities: who will do what

5. Barriers: who is in your way and how to crush them

6. Communications: who is involved, who should be in meetings, when should meetings be held

7. Evidence of success: how will you define the action step is a success or failure

8. Evaluation: Has the overall goal been reached (or at least in part)?

Winston wrote:

2. There is no God? Have you searched the whole universe and every dimension to find that out? You haven't even left planet Earth, so how do you know what's in the rest of the cosmos?! Wow. Again, you claim to be omnipotent when you are not.

There is no god. Until proven otherwise, I believe in the supremacy of man. If I were to imagine that some super-duper superior being exists in the universe, "it" will probably either see us as microbial culture cells in a petri dish, or lunch meat.

Winston wrote:

3. That is cruel and cold. You must be attuned to low consciousness and vibrations to have no compassion for others or for Mother Earth. So basically, you have no solutions for the billions who suffer in the world. Very sad. Well then, let others who do, do their thing and stop judging them. You have a right to make your choices, but not a right to declare yourself an authority in areas that you aren't.

Understand: Food aid (not same as disaster relief) is driven by donor-oriented desires and not by recipient needs.

Food aid programs exist to advance the self-interests of surplus farm production disposal, export promotion, and geopolitical leverage. On the surface it promotes "feeding the hungry". On the back-end, it kills the recipient country's agricultural industry (how do you compete against freebies?) and supports unsustainable population growth of a lazy, worthless generation waiting for a handout.

My solution is very simple. Stop sending food aid. If you cannot afford to feed your people in the long term, stop having so many kids. The solution to billions of starving people is not to have the next-generation of billions of starving people.

Btw Momopi,
Even my dad, a very practical person, saw Zeitgeist Addendum and said that although it was very idealistic and impractical, it still contains a lot of good ideas, a great holistic vision and advocated a lot of positive things.

If everyone were conformists like you who worshipped the system, no good change would ever take place, and evil would always win. Thank God not everyone is like that.

Anyhow, why don't you let people watch Zeitgeist and make up their own minds about it, instead of telling others what to think and what is worth watching and what isn't?

If you watch the 3 hour film of Noam Chomsky called "Manufacturing Consent" at the end he also talks about the real power for change lies in the grass roots and mass populace. Chomsky is one of the greatest intellectuals in the world and he even knows that. So why do folks like you claim that anything outside your narrow box is ridiculous and not even worth considering?

Is it true that to you, the state is always right and dissidents are always wrong? Is it your view that only established theories are right and that alternative explanations are all false and that no conspiracy exists unless CNN covers it? LOL

Do you still believe that if 10 dentists endorse a toothpaste, then the rest of the dentists in the world are opposed to it? (an obvious fallacy) Just like you argued that if Richard Gage has 1000 architects and engineers that endorse his Truth Movement, then all the other architects and engineers in the world endorse the official 9/11 story? LOL. That is a laughable fallacy. Come on now.

Or are you just playing devil's advocate for fun?


_________________
"The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." - H. L. Mencken

"Just look at us. Everything is backwards. Everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religion destroys spirituality." - Michael Ellner

"The greatest awakening I underwent in my travels is that nations in reality are the exact opposite of how they are depicted in the media." - Ladislav

Winston wrote:

Do you still believe that if 10 dentists endorse a toothpaste, then the rest of the dentists in the world are opposed to it? (an obvious fallacy) Just like you argued that if Richard Gage has 1000 architects and engineers that endorse his Truth Movement, then all the other architects and engineers in the world endorse the official 9/11 story? LOL. That is a laughable fallacy. Come on now.

"10 dentists endorsement" in itself is argumentum ad numerum. I've already wasted enough time explaining this:
http://www.happierabroad.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20399&highlight=dentists#20399

From a marketing standpoint, it doesn't matter if you have 500, 750, or 1,000 architects, because the public is not going to suddenly start agreeing with you if you bump the # of faceless geeks from 500 to 1,000. You're a business major and had at least 1 class in marketing right?

Winston wrote:

Or are you just playing devil's advocate for fun?

It's both entertaining and a waste of time. If you want to influence people and cause change, don't sit on your butt and indulge in wishful thinking.

Ask: what is your goal, and how to get there.

=======

Now let me think about this: You complain that you cannot get press coverage in the US and the "mainstream" ignores you. But you're in TW, an island with too many news stations and not enough news. If you can generate some publicity, I think it wouldn't be dififcult to get on TV and get press coverage.

So. here's a simple 5 step starter plan:

1. Start your own home-brew political movement by borrowing crap-loads of existing material, such as "Zeitgeist" that's subtitled in Chinese. Get a local Chinese-English translator while you're at it.

2. Organize social events and gatherings to show the movie, along with any other material you desire. Pick some random vague goal like "technological unification of the globe" as your platform.

3. Once you've gained a small following, title yourself General Secretary of the People's Movement for Technological Unification (PMTU). If you don't like PMTU make something up.

4. Identify hardcore obedient followers and appoint them to your PMTU Standing Committee. Send them to other cities in Taiwan to organize public events, protests, movie showings, whatever. Go stand in front of department stores and wave signs that read "Happiness from Shopping is Not Real".

5. To pay for expenses, do fund raisers, ask for donations, charge party membership fees, mandatory Che Guevara T-shirt purchases as party uniform, whatever. Then pay for hot chicks to stand in front of MRT stations / night markets and pass out fliers.


If you can go from step 1 to 5, you'd probably get on the news in TW. Do a good job and you might even get invited to radio/TV talk shows. This can be done within 12 months time-frame. So on your next birthday, you can say that you accomplished something measurable. How does that sound? You get to:

* Show Zeitgeist to a lot more people
* Attract a political-ideological following, including young women that you can surround yourself with
* Get publicity to air your opinions about government/corporate/space alien/lizard conspiracies and getting laid abroad
* All those hours you spent typing up what you think is wrong with Taiwanese people, now is your chance to tell it to the Taiwanese audience!

Or, would you prefer to stay exactly where you are today, a year from now?






Last edited by momopi on Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:37 pm; edited 5 times in total