Are some men running from being responsible?

[S_Parc]

will affect the health of her husband. I know women who make their husband's life a living hell and gloat over it, too. They lack the ability to see themselves and to see what destruction they are doing to their families and children. The children, unfortunately, have no other perspectives, but the views of this matriarch. What happens is that the children often join the mother in teaming up against the father.

I predict he'll have a near fatal cardiac issue within 10-15 yrs. The way this happens is that he'll take his anti-divorce ideas to the grave, always telling himself that he suffered and did his duty faithfully. Once he'd hit his mid-30s, his physique started to degenerate rapidly. I believe this rapid degeneration is psychosomatic in origin, not some hormonal problem.

she does not do damage to her children

Already done, I don't speak to my nieces anymore. They're damaged goods.

You have to believe there are a few left.

I believe this is the diamond in the rough concept. The problem, however, is the issue of father time. Realize, there are only so many hours in the week of which, I run two businesses and average some ~60 hrs of work. When I get my downtime, I don't enjoy wasting it on nonsensical parties where women and men playing divide/conquer and manipulation games. I have plenty of extracurriculars and I enjoy my R&R w/o headaches. When ~80% of American couples are essentially unhappy together, why spend my precious hours looking for that low percentage sweet spot? And realize, in many of those 10-20% groupings, the couples tend to have very congruent backgrounds, i.e. both American Greeks, both Orthodox Jews, both Pentecostals, etc. I'm not a member of such insular coupling associations so that'll lower that sweet spot zone to perhaps 5%? I probably have a better chance of getting into Harvard Medical School or making partner at Goldman Sachs than in achieving that. And at least there, I'm guaranteed a high paying job or bonus. In contrast, what can an American woman offer me which I don't already have?

[swincor]

You have to believe there are a few left.

I believe this is the diamond in the rough concept. The problem, however, is the issue of father time....

Yes, as well as probability and risk. With all those anti-male laws hanging over your head, what kind of odds do you think you're playing if you want a successful marriage with a good woman in America? Given what we know about US/Anglo cultures as poor environments for women, what really are the chances of finding that diamond in the rough?

And why even look for diamonds in the rough when there's already an overwhelming supply of better women outside the US? Are American women really that valuable? Compared to other women I've seen, my answer is: no, I don't think so.

what can an American woman offer me which I don't already have?

Exactly. I actually said something similar a while back when "woman's view" posted as ahardy57: "You may have to shop around for countries a bit, but once you step outside the US/UK/AUS, your dating/mating prospects with reliable, high quality women significantly increases. And then, you find you don't feel the need to seek Anglosphere women like Hardy for dating advice -- as such women become rather superfluous in the face of an overwhelming abundance of much higher quality women overseas."

viewtopic.php?t=9037&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=70

At the time, I naively assumed that hardy (woman's view) would actually read and comprehend something written in clear, understandable English. Then I remembered, "ah, she's a woman -- and an American woman at that. Therefore very high on the self-centeredness part, very low on the critical thinking part."

Like you said, there really is nothing American women can offer -- not when there already is an abundance of better quality women elsewhere. For the man who sees a bigger world outside the US, American women are, to put it quite brutally, superfluous.

[S_Parc]

playing the field with many lovers and conquering as many as they can, and instead of the female licentiousness, the pendulum now swings to the other extreme - male licentiousness.

Woman'sView, do you not realize that among any population group, whether it be in Brazil, Argentina, France, Russia, Samoa, Singapore, you-name-it, that there will be men who play the field regardless of the color of their respective passports?

Now, how is this a crisis situation? Are you afraid of some Ugly Yankee label being applied to both genders, when they now work in let's say Brazil or Singapore as an ex-pat? For one, I don't concern myself with this because those who play the field, will attempt to do so, regardless of some added shame factor by Americana propagandists. Next, given the fact that these American passport holding players will be not a heck of a lot different than any other nationality of players, that they'll be a type of global brat pack (see Charlie Sheen, Owen Wilson, Jason Stratham, etc) then anything you or I need to concern ourselves with. As for the Ugly Yank, that label already applies to poorly dressed Americans who're loud at restaurants and hotels abroad. This label's been in effect since the 1950s, when more and more Americans were becoming ex-pats for International corporations or the military.

[MrPeabody]

What does "play the field" mean? Men who have been previously ignored all their lives will respond to the advances of many women. Something, like what women do in America. What is bizarre is that women in America have a problem with this whereas in most non-anglo countries it is considered normal behavior. Most men eventually give up on this lifestyle naturally when they start having an empty feeling inside and start desiring a more permanent relationship with a woman. The behavior corrects itself without any preaching. What is really abnormal behavior is the practice of women aborting their own children. This goes against the core of a normal woman's love for her children. This is a real perversion and unnatural. But, you notice the deflection of the mass media influenced culture is to put all the blame on the men, no matter what they do, and to praise destructive female behavior. My advice to men - stop feeling the need to defend yourself.

[S_Parc]

Most men eventually give up on this lifestyle naturally when they start having an empty feeling inside and start desiring a more permanent relationship with a woman. The behavior corrects itself without any preaching.

My sentiments, exactly!

you notice the deflection of the mass media influenced culture is to put all the blame on the men, no matter what they do, and to praise destructive female behavior. My advice to men - stop feeling the need to defend yourself.

Actually, I believe the only real reason why WomensView is here is to entrap one of the guys into saying something wrong. It fits with the 'need to defend' oneself, if you're a guy technique. Instead, she's being deflected in response after response, giving quick quid pro quos but no substantial counter-responses.

And as for male licentiousness, as some cultural norm... not a problem. And they'll always be a Charlie Sheen or two, regardless.

I remember an incident back in college. There was an American woman and a recent immigrant woman from Laos. Well, the AW spent months trying to convert her into playing games against men, however, once the Lao woman started getting guys easily, she started playing the field in Massachusetts w/o making them feel like crap, since that obviously gets her a huge hit ratio. Well shortly afterwards, the AW started telling everyone that she was a slut and then those two became enemies for life. The Lao woman, not being a fool, cut off ties with both the AW and many of her close female associates. And just as you'd indicated, after playing the field for few years, the Lao woman eventually settled down with a nice guy and they lived happily ever after.

[Woman'sview]

S-Parc said:
"I believe this is the diamond in the rough concept. The problem, however, is the issue of father time. Realize, there are only so many hours in the week of which, I run two businesses and average some ~60 hrs of work. When I get my downtime, I don't enjoy wasting it on nonsensical parties where women and men playing divide/conquer and manipulation games. I have plenty of extracurriculars and I enjoy my R&R w/o headaches. When ~80% of American couples are essentially unhappy together, why spend my precious hours looking for that low percentage sweet spot? And realize, in many of those 10-20% groupings, the couples tend to have very congruent backgrounds, i.e. both American Greeks, both Orthodox Jews, both Pentecostals, etc. I'm not a member of such insular coupling associations so that'll lower that sweet spot zone to perhaps 5%? I probably have a better chance of getting into Harvard Medical School or making partner at Goldman Sachs than in achieving that. And at least there, I'm guaranteed a high paying job or bonus. In contrast, what can an American woman offer me which I don't already have?"
---------------------------------------
Well, it seems you have succeeded in the business world. You are right about most of the successful marriages being in the more conservative Christian sects or other insular religious groups. The problem is, if you do not belong to one of these groups, you marry at your own risk.

[Woman'sview]

playing the field with many lovers and conquering as many as they can, and instead of the female licentiousness, the pendulum now swings to the other extreme - male licentiousness.

Woman'sView, do you not realize that among any population group, whether it be in Brazil, Argentina, France, Russia, Samoa, Singapore, you-name-it, that there will be men who play the field regardless of the color of their respective passports?

Now, how is this a crisis situation? Are you afraid of some Ugly Yankee label being applied to both genders, when they now work in let's say Brazil or Singapore as an ex-pat? For one, I don't concern myself with this because those who play the field, will attempt to do so, regardless of some added shame factor by Americana propagandists. Next, given the fact that these American passport holding players will be not a heck of a lot different than any other nationality of players, that they'll be a type of global brat pack (see Charlie Sheen, Owen Wilson, Jason Stratham, etc) then anything you or I need to concern ourselves with. As for the Ugly Yank, that label already applies to poorly dressed Americans who're loud at restaurants and hotels abroad. This label's been in effect since the 1950s, when more and more Americans were becoming ex-pats for International corporations or the military.

S_Parc, there are some who wish to immigrate abroad who will join at the table of the poorly dressed Americans who're loud at restaurants and hotel abroad. To that group, overseas will be their own personal playground.

To the good guys reading this, disregard the above, this does not apply to you.

[Woman'sview]

What does "play the field" mean? Men who have been previously ignored all their lives will respond to the advances of many women. Something, like what women do in America. What is bizarre is that women in America have a problem with this whereas in most non-anglo countries it is considered normal behavior. Most men eventually give up on this lifestyle naturally when they start having an empty feeling inside and start desiring a more permanent relationship with a woman. The behavior corrects itself without any preaching. What is really abnormal behavior is the practice of women aborting their own children. This goes against the core of a normal woman's love for her children. This is a real perversion and unnatural. But, you notice the deflection of the mass media influenced culture is to put all the blame on the men, no matter what they do, and to praise destructive female behavior. My advice to men - stop feeling the need to defend yourself.

You are right about the media, MrPeabody, it is a great culprit here. Abortion is always wrong.
MrPeabody, whether one goes overseas or not, morals are morals. And they apply to both gender.

[S_Parc]

there are some who wish to immigrate abroad who will join at the table of the poorly dressed Americans who're loud at restaurants and hotel abroad. To that group, overseas will be their own personal playground.

Ok, but this is analogous to the Flag Burning Amendment, as a response to a few loud mouths who desecrate Old Glory, from time to time. In this aspect, you remind me of my father, who BTW is a staunch conservative Reaganite, and when he heard about the Flag Burning proposal, he was convinced that there were Leninists about to stage a coup on the Capital so he was all for it. But yes, I agree, there are those who don't like the govt but on the whole, they tend to both respect the Flag and voice their hostilities out loud.

Likewise, you're being an alarmist in terms of ex-pat communities. Many Americans go as far as Canada or perhaps, Mexico and Costa Rica, when they leave the country. And then yes, a few might be found OD'ed in some villa near Puerto Vallarta. That's the cost of having some choice in one's decisions. As for mainstay Americans living/settled abroad, however, they seem to be very polite and very well integrated, as outsiders, in their host countries. I've already been in those circles, in both South America and Asia, and none of them come off as the types of jerks that you've alluding at. The jerks, for the most part, are the drunken vis-a-vis stoned US/UK/Aussie youths who make a fool of themselves whenever they coagulate in a common hotel. This is especially true for the UK soccer fans but let's not go there.

[S_Parc]

The problem is, if you do not belong to one of these groups, you marry at your own risk.

I'll give you one other scenario which works:

A boy and girl grow up in some small town near Bangor Maine. They meet at the age of 13 and enjoy going out for hiking, canoeing, and fishing in their nearby lakes and rivers. They both listen to the same genres of classic rock. When they turn 17, they decide that they want to go for the big adventure so they both get accepted to Boston Univ (BU) in the city. Well, a year or two in, both of them are disillusioned by the haughtiness and Nouveau riche attitudes of many of their classmates. And in particular, they find Bostonians to be rude and arrogant for their tastes. Thus, they transfer back to the Univ of Maine, finish their degrees there, get married, and settle down for slightly lower paying jobs in Bangor ME so that they can enjoy the pace of life they were accustomed to w/o the rat race of the city.

The above scenario tells me that the good ones will be gone by early adulthood and at the same time, they're not fishing with either the urban or suburban sharks. Since it's impossible to go back in time to that mythical rural enclave, one has to accept the isolation and dysfunctionality of American urban and suburban life when it comes down to the battle of the genders. Thus, I've accepted this and have moved on. I recommend other fellows to do the same.

[Woman'sview]

there are some who wish to immigrate abroad who will join at the table of the poorly dressed Americans who're loud at restaurants and hotel abroad. To that group, overseas will be their own personal playground.

Ok, but this is analogous to the Flag Burning Amendment, as a response to a few loud mouths who desecrate Old Glory, from time to time. In this aspect, you remind me of my father, who BTW is a staunch conservative Reaganite, and when he heard about the Flag Burning proposal, he was convinced that there were Leninists about to stage a coup on the Capital so he was all for it. But yes, I agree, there are those who don't like the govt but on the whole, they tend to both respect the Flag and voice their hostilities out loud.

Likewise, you're being an alarmist in terms of ex-pat communities. Many Americans go as far as Canada or perhaps, Mexico and Costa Rica, when they leave the country. And then yes, a few might be found OD'ed in some villa near Puerto Vallarta. That's the cost of having some choice in one's decisions. As for mainstay Americans living/settled abroad, however, they seem to be very polite and very well integrated, as outsiders, in their host countries. I've already been in those circles, in both South America and Asia, and none of them come off as the types of jerks that you've alluding at. The jerks, for the most part, are the drunken vis-a-vis stoned US/UK/Aussie youths who make a fool of themselves whenever they coagulate in a common hotel. This is especially true for the UK soccer fans but let's not go there.

I think what you say is true for the most part. Americans who immigrate can fall in either camp.

[S_Parc]

Americans who immigrate can fall in either camp

I'd argue that the immature tourists (see Soccer fans) are more in your category than those who sincerely want to relocate.

You're crying wolf, please refrain from it "the US Flag is safe", you're only alluding to my theme that you're an Agent Provocateur.

[Woman'sview]

The problem is, if you do not belong to one of these groups, you marry at your own risk.

I'll give you one other scenario which works:

A boy and girl grow up in some small town near Bangor Maine. They meet at the age of 13 and enjoy going out for hiking, canoeing, and fishing in their nearby lakes and rivers. They both listen to the same genres of classic rock. When they turn 17, they decide that they want to go for the big adventure so they both get accepted to Boston Univ (BU) in the city. Well, a year or two in, both of them are disillusioned by the haughtiness and Nouveau riche attitudes of many of their classmates. And in particular, they find Bostonians to be rude and arrogant for their tastes. Thus, they transfer back to the Univ of Maine, finish their degrees there, get married, and settle down for slightly lower paying jobs in Bangor ME so that they can enjoy the pace of life they were accustomed to w/o the rat race of the city.

The above scenario tells me that the good ones will be gone by early adulthood and at the same time, they're not fishing with either the urban or suburban sharks. Since it's impossible to go back in time to that mythical rural enclave, one has to accept the isolation and dysfunctionality of American urban and suburban life when it comes down to the battle of the genders. Thus, I've accepted this and have moved on. I recommend other fellows to do the same.

That seems like a good scenario, S_Parc.
Another kind of pairing that seems to work is two "nerds" married with similar interest has a good chance of their marriage lasting.
Can you or anyone else think of another kind of couple whose marriage will survive in America?

[MrPeabody]

What does "play the field" mean? Men who have been previously ignored all their lives will respond to the advances of many women. Something, like what women do in America. What is bizarre is that women in America have a problem with this whereas in most non-anglo countries it is considered normal behavior. Most men eventually give up on this lifestyle naturally when they start having an empty feeling inside and start desiring a more permanent relationship with a woman. The behavior corrects itself without any preaching. What is really abnormal behavior is the practice of women aborting their own children. This goes against the core of a normal woman's love for her children. This is a real perversion and unnatural. But, you notice the deflection of the mass media influenced culture is to put all the blame on the men, no matter what they do, and to praise destructive female behavior. My advice to men - stop feeling the need to defend yourself.

You are right about the media, MrPeabody, it is a great culprit here. Abortion is always wrong.
MrPeabody, whether one goes overseas or not, morals are morals. And they apply to both gender.

True, but when they figure it out for themselves, then their behavior changes.

[S_Parc]

Another kind of pairing that seems to work is two "nerds" married with similar interest has a good chance of their marriage lasting.

I only see these types of couplings work when it's with the insular groupings like both Armenians or both Jews, etc, are in effect. Or when the guy is white and the woman, east Asian. But that's not a whole lot different then going to Taipei university and meeting a woman there.

The main pressure, which keeps nerdy white couples together is the academic ivory tower where in effect, they live a type of highly scheduled or regimented lifestyle. Yet, once they leave and work in the private sectors, they descend to the same failures of the less academic types in urban/suburban dysfunctional societies.

The reason why my rural Maine example works better is that both parties are *naturalists* at heart and enjoy the serenity of a fishing trip over being a part of some urban group think effect. This state needs to be instilled before one's 14 for it to be a life-long condition. I knew one rather attractive Maine country gal and she'd met her future husband, within her 1st week of arriving in Boston for work. Don't know if they moved back to Maine later but I figured her husband would gladly leave Boston for her, if he could find some telecommuting work. On the other foot, Urban-Suburbanites are very stimulant oriented than natural in their peak moments. Where the nerds fail is that many of them have had little real experience outside of studying for exams or doing one's homework. Usually, those people start to learn about adulthood, after the age of 30, and at that point, it's too late for them to really find out what's right and what doesn't work.