Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance?

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Winston
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Re: Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance

Post by Winston »

What are all you guys astrology sign? Both west and east? I'm a pisces and ox.

How come most western males nowadays dismiss astrology without ever studying it? How do they know its totally false if they know nothing about it? Thats illogical and arrogant. If astrology wasnt real then billionaires and elites would not use it. But they do. Elites are much smarter and more knowledgeable than average people so we can conclude that if they use something then there must be something to it. Also ive noticed the patterns in astrology are true in the people I observe, including myself. its certainly not random. Right?

I also tell modern men that the french statiscian michel gauquelin spent his whole life providing scientific proof of astrology that defies chance. But they still dismiss it. The modern male mind thinks atheism and dismissing astrology is the height of new rationality. Most western men i know are like that.

A typical example is bill maher, the comedian. He represents the typical modern western male who believes religion is all bunk and that its a fact as evident as 2+2=4. He is very anti religion and atheist and even though his ass has been kicked in debate many times on TV, he still holds to his same beliefs. Atheism is like a religion nowadays.
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Re: Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance

Post by Winston »

Great documentary about astrology, narrated by Christopher Lee, star of hammer horror films, who played dracula many times.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ5I3Q8axgE

Description:

The Truth About Astrology - Full Documentary

In our modern age of science and rationality, the mere mention of astrology is enough to evoke a broad range of reactions across the spectrum of society. For many people, the term astrologer summons to mind images of hippies, new-age witches, so-called psychics or a variety of other charlatans and frauds. On the other hand, kings and emperors throughout history have used their secret knowledge of astrology to their own great benefit.

To this day, politicians and judges, world-famous celebrities, powerful businessmen, and financiers from New York and the City of London to Moscow and Hong Kong, still use astrology to guide them when they make important decisions. So what is astrology all about, and how can this ancient science be put to use to help you? Read on to discover the answers to these and other questions.

First let's tackle some common myths and misconceptions about astrology.

- Astrology is not magic.

This bears repeating: astrology is not magic. The science underlying the practice of astrology is based on thousands of years of empirical research, and as with all good science, our understanding of astrology continues to evolve and improve as we do. Just as alchemy paved the way for the development of modern science and the widely-respected scientific method, so too will astrology lead the way to a greater understanding of the energies that permeate the Universe and how their ebb and flow can affect terrestrial life.

- Astrology is not a new-age fad.

We've all seen the signs for those shady tarot and palm-reading shops, and if you've traveled through Europe (especially Eastern Europe) then you've probably encountered various gypsies and other ne'er-do-wells hocking their fortune telling and astrology services, often at exorbitant prices. Unfortunately, most of these people are charlatans and frauds; some of them are well-intentioned but delusional about their own capabilities, and occasionally you may find a genuine astrologer out there, but the vast majority of such individuals are nothing more than snake-oil salesmen (or women, as the case often is) and they know it.

Real astrology is an ancient science practiced by respected individuals throughout history, including right up to the modern day. You won't find real astrologers hocking their services with exaggerated claims, false promises, or gimmicky promotions, because they simply don't need to. And although some legitimate astrologers do sell crystals, essential oils and other natural products, you wouldn't find most of us within a mile of a New Age shop. Many of us are doctors, lawyers, teachers or professionals in other fields, and astrology is just another aspect of our lives.

- Astrology is not based on superstitious mumbo-jumbo.

Much of the confusion surrounding whether astrology is or is not a legitimate science stems from the fact that astrologers have historically made great use of symbolism and allegory to communicate their understanding of how the position of the stars impacts terrestrial life.

Modern astrologers still use much of the same terminology and symbolism simply because modern science has yet to catch up with astrology. We are only now starting to study and understand the impact of things like mass coronal ejections from the sun and how they impact life here on Earth; it's no surprise that we haven't even begun to understand how the electromagnetic waves and radioactive energies of other stars may impact life here.

- Astrology is not easy.

This is a bit of a double-edged statement. On the one hand, the principles that underlie the practice of astrology are quite simple and easy to grasp; but on the other hand, just take a look at the nighttime sky next time you're away from the city! To get the most accurate readings from any astrological chart, there are usually two or three dozen different aspects and relationships to look at and take into consideration, and this is what makes astrology complex and difficult, especially if you want the most accurate and detailed results.

Remember those kings and emperors I mentioned, as well as the politicians, celebrities and market-shaping financiers around the world? Well, part of why they are able to use astrology to their own benefit is because they can afford to pay for the services of skilled astrologers. When a powerful businessman in India wants to find a good date for his company merger, the astrologer he hires may take anywhere from several days to several weeks to select the most opportune time. Good astrology takes time and effort, because there are many planets, stars and celestial bodies, as well as their positions and relationships to one another, which must be considered.
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Re: Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance

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Winston wrote:What are all you guys astrology sign? Both west and east? I'm a pisces and ox.

How come most western males nowadays dismiss astrology without ever studying it? How do they know its totally false if they know nothing about it? Thats illogical and arrogant. If astrology wasnt real then billionaires and elites would not use it. But they do. Elites are much smarter and more knowledgeable than average people so we can conclude that if they use something then there must be something to it. Also ive noticed the patterns in astrology are true in the people I observe, including myself. its certainly not random. Right?

I also tell modern men that the french statiscian michel gauquelin spent his whole life providing scientific proof of astrology that defies chance. But they still dismiss it. The modern male mind thinks atheism and dismissing astrology is the height of new rationality. Most western men i know are like that.

A typical example is bill maher, the comedian. He represents the typical modern western male who believes religion is all bunk and that its a fact as evident as 2+2=4. He is very anti religion and atheist and even though his ass has been kicked in debate many times on TV, he still holds to his same beliefs. Atheism is like a religion nowadays.
Winston, I was born on January 25, 1973 (on a Thursday). Therefore my astrological or birthday sign is that of Aquarius (the water bearer). As for the Eastern or Chinese zodiac, I was born in the year of the Ox.
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Re: Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance

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I'm a Leo and a Tiger.
Rawrrrrrrr.
Misery and happiness are only states of mind.
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Re: Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance

Post by Ralph in Miami »

I follow Vedic Astrology. The degrees in the sky are off by 23 degrees in Western Astrology and that makes a huge difference in one's reading/ rising sign. Getting into Brihat Para Hora Shastra. Heavy reading but has really helped me get to know myself. Astrology in my opinion is the Holy Science. Don't subscibe to any faith but the little I know of Hinduism this seems to make the most sense.
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Re: Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance?

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Holy cow. This European lady I'm talkng is an Aries too I just found out.

Remember i told u guys before that most women i meet are Aries and most of my girlfriends are too. Well half at least. Lol. That cannot be explained by chance because chance is 1 in 12 which is 8 percent. So 8 percent of the women i know should be Aries yet its more like 50 or 60 percent.

Skeptics cant deny that that defies chance and is a definite pattern. U cant deny that. Many esoteric occult stuff does seem to ring true.

Dianne is aries too. So is kelly. So was robin. So were half the girls i met in Russia and lithuania by random cold approach. I think the reason is either:

1. I have a karmic connection with Aries women.
2. Aries women are more outgoing and bold about talking to strangers so i meet them more.

Or both of these reasons. But it cannot be coincidence or chance. Thats for sure. 50 or 60 percent is much higher than 8 percent. No doubt.
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Re: Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance

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Winston wrote:
October 27th, 2015, 3:01 am
Some significant things to consider:

You gotta remember that astrology is not 100 percent fiction or false. There are very REAL and CONSISTENT patterns in astrology that randomness and chance can't explain. If you study the work of Michel Gauquelin, you would see that there is strong statistical evidence to back up the reality of astrology. In fact, when the Skeptical Inquirer tried to debunk Gauquelin's work, one of their founding members, Dennis Rawlins, resigned when he found out that his organization was using dishonest fraudulent tactics and that truth was not their real agenda. So the Skeptical Inquirer failed to debunk Gauquelin's work proving astrology, and in fact their research validated it, so they tried to cover that up. That's why their founding member, Dennis Rawlins, resigned from the team and blew the whistle on CSICOP, the organization that publishes Skeptical Inquirer. Rawlins published a paper called "Starbaby" (which you can read online by Googling "Dennis Rawlins Starbaby") where he exposes what happened, and how the professional skeptics ended up validating astrology rather than debunking it.

Also, if the Illuminati and secret societies that rule our world use astrology and numerology -- and ruling elites for thousands of years have as well, from ancient Egypt and Babylon to present day -- then there must be something to it. Remember that such elites are way smarter than us and the masses, so if they take something seriously, then there must be something to it. It's a very logical assumption. However, the astrology and occult knowledge of the ruling elite and secret societies is far more advanced than the layman astrology you pick up in bookstores, and kept in the realm of hidden knowledge that only initiated ones are privy to. They even plan big events such as the JFK assassination and 9/11 around astrologically significant dates. But that's another subject matter. In general though, powerful people and billionaires use astrology and numerology. Therefore, if the most successful and powerful people use it and take it seriously, then there MUST be something to it. It's a very logical assumption. They definitely aren't fools.

Either way, patterns do exist in astrology, so there is something to it. Even practical, realistic, down-to-earth guys like Rock and Ethan_sg, and others in this forum, have noticed this, so they take astrology into consideration as well when dealing with people and relationships. And so have others here like S_Parc, Jester and Jtest28. In fact, when I was in Poland and talking to a girl on the train, I told her that I guessed she was a Taurus and she was surprised that I guessed her sign correctly. That happens sometimes too.

So you gotta keep all this in mind before dismissing something.
Winston this is both a great post and topic!!!
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Re: Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance?

Post by Winston »

From my reply to MrMan:
MrMan wrote:
August 31st, 2021, 10:53 am
Winston wrote:
August 31st, 2021, 4:43 am
How can Satan or demons be behind astrology? How would he match your personality with your sun sign? Wouldn't he have to dig in and change who you are at the core to do that? How can he make things happen in alignment with the planets? Wouldn't he have to be more powerful than God to do all that?
I happened to see this question. The atheist, 'the amazing Randy' went to a classroom of college students and told them that he had designed a horoscope for them based on their date of birth. Some of them were amazed. It described them to a T. Then he said take that paper and pass it to the person in front of you. All of them had received the same horoscope.

You don't have to be 'more powerful than God'. You just have to tell people what they want to hear.
That's from an old documentary. Randi's horoscopes were all very general and applied to everyone. That's not how astrology is though. Maybe newspaper astrology is like that, but not real astrology. Astrologers like Sydney Omar and Linda Goodman have debunked that long ago. Birth charts are very specific.

The atheist Michael Shermer did a double blind astrology test with professional astrologer Jeffrey Armstrong. He prepared birth charts for everyone in the study that were very specific. The people said their real charts were very accurate but not when they were shuffled randomly. So that proved the accuracy of astrology. See the clip below:



If there was no accuracy in astrology, it would not be convincing to so many. A hoax can only go so far. Astrology is not perfect or always accurate, but it is not random chance either, it is something in the middle. It produces patterns that chance cannot explain. For example, most of my exes are Aries, and half the girls I met in Russia and went out with were Aries too. That is 50 percent, which is far above 1 in 12 chance. Big difference. Chance cannot explain that. Most of my male best friends have been Cancer or Scorpio too. Again, that's not chance. Certain signs repeat in one's life consistently.

I also notice that most people I know of a certain sign are similar to that sign, for example everyone knows Virgos are anal retentive, and yes, every Virgo I know is in fact anal retentive, including Rock even. Even Rock has noticed that. And every Cancer I've known has been moody a lot, which is a typical trait for Cancers. So the patterns are there. Chance or Satan cannot do that. How can Satan match me with my Pisces sign and produce Piscean characteristics in my personality and psyche to the core? That's impossible. Satan cannot change who you are at birth in your core basic personality. For evil entities to affect you, you have to invite them in and ask them to. The universe doesn't allow them to do whatever they want, otherwise they would capture the whole world, so the universe or God limits what bad entities can do. Even Christians say that too.

Also look up Michel Gauquelin. He was a French statistician who found proof of astrology that are astronomical. In prominent leaders, he always found Mars in their chart in the same places, which was like a gazillion to one odds. Gauquelin wavered in his life between belief and skepticism in astrology many times, before finally accepting it as real. So he was not a "true believer" but a skeptic who changed his mind back and forth about astrology many times, before finally accepting it as real and proving it with statistics in birth charts of powerful leaders. Look up his research. It's well documented.

You really need to look at the big picture and consider all the data MrMan, not just focus narrowly on one little thing and draw conclusions from that. Am I the only true intellectual who can think here and has a broad mind that can consider all the data and evidence? Geez. Why can't you guys do the same??? If you were an intellectual, you would know all this stuff. Come on.
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Re: Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance?

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Winston wrote:
August 31st, 2021, 11:33 am
The atheist Michael Shermer did a double blind astrology test with professional astrologer Jeffrey Armstrong. He prepared birth charts for everyone in the study that were very specific. The people said their real charts were very accurate but not when they were shuffled randomly. So that proved the accuracy of astrology. See the clip below:

I have seen several of them. The clips weren't impressive. If you tell someone they are supportive or have a talent, most people want to hear that. We all have some degree of talent... or desire to have talent.

Another issue is if you put people in a room likely to hear a reading, then it is likely that they have read some of the descriptions of what their 'sign' is like, what Cancers are like, or Pisces, or whatever. So they may look for those characteristics in themselves, or seek to cultivate them. And if they believe in it, when they hear the ideas echoed back, they might accept the ideas also. This type of experiment rules out the type of people who would refuse to receive an astrologer's consultation, so you are dealing with a skewed sample.

As Christians, though, the issue is not whether a soothsayer, diviner can give an accurate reading, but that it is forbidden to go to them. Demons can know stuff, too.
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Re: Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance?

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MrMan wrote:
August 31st, 2021, 12:09 pm
Winston wrote:
August 31st, 2021, 11:33 am
The atheist Michael Shermer did a double blind astrology test with professional astrologer Jeffrey Armstrong. He prepared birth charts for everyone in the study that were very specific. The people said their real charts were very accurate but not when they were shuffled randomly. So that proved the accuracy of astrology. See the clip below:

I have seen several of them. The clips weren't impressive. If you tell someone they are supportive or have a talent, most people want to hear that. We all have some degree of talent... or desire to have talent.

Another issue is if you put people in a room likely to hear a reading, then it is likely that they have read some of the descriptions of what their 'sign' is like, what Cancers are like, or Pisces, or whatever. So they may look for those characteristics in themselves, or seek to cultivate them. And if they believe in it, when they hear the ideas echoed back, they might accept the ideas also. This type of experiment rules out the type of people who would refuse to receive an astrologer's consultation, so you are dealing with a skewed sample.

As Christians, though, the issue is not whether a soothsayer, diviner can give an accurate reading, but that it is forbidden to go to them. Demons can know stuff, too.
Yes they are. They aren't impressive because they contradict your beliefs. That's why. A controlled double blind test is very significant. And no surprise too, because astrology does tend to be accurate. See the Virgo and Cancer examples I gave above. Most people do fit their sun sign and their moon sign and rising sign too. It's not general like "you are supportive or have a talent". If it was that vague, no one would be impressed. That's pseudoskeptic straw man. I've seen specifics in astrology that you can't explain. Not all of it is general. That is a lie and total straw man, if you consider that astrology is ONLY all general and no specifics. That is NOT TRUE. And that is not the Christian position either, Christians usually say that Satan is behind it. Did you hear John Todd's recordings where he says demons are behind astrology?

No you didn't watch the clip. These are NOT general birth sign descriptions. These are customized birth charts based on the birth dates of the participants. NOT general sun signs! Come on. You obviously did not watch the clip! Why did you lie???!!!

A birth chart is a scientific process with formulas and interpretations, not a reading by demons. If you ever get one, you will see what I mean.

Regardless my personal examples prove that astrology is not chance and has consistent patterns, which skeptics cannot explain of course.

Of course the church wants you to think it is demons, because they want occult power for themselves, not the masses. They don't want the masses to be empowered. This is old news. Only ignorant Christians don't get it.
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Re: Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance?

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Winston wrote:
August 31st, 2021, 12:17 pm
MrMan wrote:
August 31st, 2021, 12:09 pm
Winston wrote:
August 31st, 2021, 11:33 am
The atheist Michael Shermer did a double blind astrology test with professional astrologer Jeffrey Armstrong. He prepared birth charts for everyone in the study that were very specific. The people said their real charts were very accurate but not when they were shuffled randomly. So that proved the accuracy of astrology. See the clip below:

I have seen several of them. The clips weren't impressive. If you tell someone they are supportive or have a talent, most people want to hear that. We all have some degree of talent... or desire to have talent.

Another issue is if you put people in a room likely to hear a reading, then it is likely that they have read some of the descriptions of what their 'sign' is like, what Cancers are like, or Pisces, or whatever. So they may look for those characteristics in themselves, or seek to cultivate them. And if they believe in it, when they hear the ideas echoed back, they might accept the ideas also. This type of experiment rules out the type of people who would refuse to receive an astrologer's consultation, so you are dealing with a skewed sample.

As Christians, though, the issue is not whether a soothsayer, diviner can give an accurate reading, but that it is forbidden to go to them. Demons can know stuff, too.
Yes they are. They aren't impressive because they contradict your beliefs. That's why. A controlled double blind test is very significant. And no surprise too, because astrology does tend to be accurate. See the Virgo and Cancer examples I gave above. Most people do fit their sun sign and their moon sign and rising sign too. It's not general like "you are supportive or have a talent". If it was that vague, no one would be impressed. That's pseudoskeptic straw man. I've seen specifics in astrology that you can't explain. Not all of it is general. That is a lie and total straw man, if you consider that astrology is ONLY all general and no specifics. That is NOT TRUE. And that is not the Christian position either, Christians usually say that Satan is behind it. Did you hear John Todd's recordings where he says demons are behind astrology?
I don't have time to watch all these clips. You throw hundreds of hours of clips into discussions, then keep sending messages to get me and others involved in the conversation. If conversation involves watching a long video first, I'm probably not going to watch it. I don't do this for a living.

I saw a few of the readings. There was an an Asian lady. As far as guesses at something substantial, he guessed she might be into dance or martial arts, and he guessed she had problems with her father. The other stuff I saw in the readings was flattery or other stuff people want to believe about themselves-- stuff about someone having a good voice, being attractive or guessing well. What percentage of the percentage accurate was stuff people wanted to believe about themselves?

Anyway, even if he were 100% accurate, I've got no reason to sit around watching hours of this stuff. The issue is not whether these types of things can be accurate, but whether it is appropriate to consult such folks. A lot of it is psychological stuff, cold reading techniques, and such, or telling people what they want to hear, even if the practitioner may not be aware of it. Astrology is one of those things that I consider... likely forbidden. It seems to me it is divination at its most accurate. Some of it is just telling people stuff they want to believe about themselves.

As far as accuracy goes, the details were nowhere near as specific and shocking as some of the prophecy/words of knowledge type stuff I've witnessed.
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Re: Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance?

Post by Winston »

MrMan,
That clip above is only 10 min. Come on.

I've had specifics in my sun sign too. In Linda Goodman's book on astrology, it said that I probably had my first crush when I was 5. It was true for me. I asked other people and they denied being able to have crushes at that age. So that's something that doesn't apply to most people.

Astrology is not evil. You can't quote the Bible on that. What reason do you have to assume that everything in the occult is evil and Satanic? Bible verses are not an authority so you can't quote that. Any other valid arguments? No it is not all general. If it were, no one would be impressed.

What accurate prophecies have you witnessed? Can you give examples?
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Re: Why does Astrology work and reveal patterns above chance?

Post by MrMan »

Winston wrote:
August 31st, 2021, 10:02 pm
MrMan,
That clip above is only 10 min. Come on.
That's a lot of time to devote to this stuff. You'll also post multiple videos in a thread, some that are much longer than this.
I've had specifics in my sun sign too. In Linda Goodman's book on astrology, it said that I probably had my first crush when I was 5. It was true for me. I asked other people and they denied being able to have crushes at that age. So that's something that doesn't apply to most people.
How many guesses in the book did not fit you? How many were generic and positive enough for people to say 'yeah, that's me' whether it is true or not?
Astrology is not evil. You can't quote the Bible on that. What reason do you have to assume that everything in the occult is evil and Satanic? Bible verses are not an authority so you can't quote that.
Divination is forbidden. Cloud reading (ciphering omens) is forbidden. I'm inclined to put astrology in the divination category. I realize you do not accept the authority of the Bible, and we have a different ideas on that.
What accurate prophecies have you witnessed? Can you give examples?
There are prophecies and words of knowledge. So between these two, I've seen hundreds of really accurate things. Many of them are along the lines of the person giving the prophecy or sharing the word of knowledge knowing things that about the other person that he or she could not naturally know. Fewer are along the lines of future predictions. Maybe a year ago, my wife heard back from a man she'd prophesied over. She prophesied about one day he'd lead a certain type of ministry. (Can't remember if it was training people for ministry or apologetics. I could ask her.) Anyway, about 15 years later or so, he saw her online and told her back then he was a janitor, and how now he had a ministry like she described.

My parents were wanting to build a house and kept talking about it. They'd lived in once city where they had a house, moved, and were renting. They didn't know anyone at this church, but there is a man who prophesied who was there for a conference. He basically prophesied over people all night, then he'd have them repeat prayers back after him, that usually contained a lot of personal information about themselves. Anyway, he got to my parents. He prophesied and had them pray about a 'water table' on a plot of land. My parents ended up buying land. He had my mom pray with him about some personal stuff, and prayed about my dad's specific field of construction work. There was no way he could have known what my dad did for a living, or that they wanted to build a house. This went on and on, maybe 15 or 20 hours of it that weekend, person after person. I worked with someone at the church. She'd whisper to me, "That man is going to work at a summer camp"-- the guy he prophesied about ministering to kids at the summer camp. Another one was going to work on a cruise ship for the summer (a college student, probably) and he prophesied about that.

I've occasionally gotten what I'd consider words of knowledge, details about people that I'd pray about and they say something about. For me, it's more promptings I'd pray, not so much knowing the import of the words to the individual. Like one guy said, "How did you know I was adopted' after I prayed with him. My wife gets a lot of this stuff, too. She told me she believed one of our friends at church had had an affair. He confessed to it when she confronted him. There is no way she could have known.

My vocation is teaching. That's still a big part of what I do now in higher ed, and I was an English teacher overseas. My strongest spiritual gift is in that area. Numerous times, either in prophecies or people sharing words of knowledge or whatever word of encouragement they had for me where they said that I was a teacher. It's so common, I realized a while back, that i am not amazed by it. Maybe I didn't appreciate it. I'm like, "okay, I already know that..." and listen to the next thing. I kind of appreciate it if I share something with someone else and they let me know its confirmation or whatever, so I try to give that kind of encouragement back when someone shares a word of knowledge, prophecy, etc. with me if the situation allows for it.
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