Page 22 of 25
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 17th, 2022, 7:35 am
by Yohan
MrMan wrote: ↑April 16th, 2022, 9:51 pm
It doesn't sound like you've ever read the gospels. Jesus is called 'He' throughout the gospel. Blasphemers and people with their own agendas have proposed some of the theories you mentioned.
With 'evidence I really mean something else which is NOT the gospel, just any other source which is not related to the Bible or to any other religious book like the Quran.
There is more or less nothing, there is no independent, no neutral source as far as I know, which proves that Jesus even existed.
To claim Jesus did exist as a man because it is mentioned in the Gospel is not a proof.
About blasphemers etc. I think there is nothing wrong to ask questions if there is doubt. And there is reasonable doubt.
For example this survey claims that 22 percent of adults in UK do not believe that Jesus was a real person...
https://www.history.com/news/was-jesus- ... l-evidence
The Bible Says Jesus Was Real. What Other Proof Exists?
Some argue that Jesus wasn't an actual man, but within a few decades of his lifetime, he was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians.
CHRISTOPHER KLEIN UPDATED:MAR 24, 2021 ORIGINAL:FEB 26, 2019
While billions of people believe Jesus of Nazareth was one of the most important figures in world history, many others reject the idea that he even existed at all. A 2015 survey conducted by the Church of England, for instance, found that 22 percent of adults in England did not believe Jesus was a real person.
---
Documentary evidence outside of the New Testament is limited.
The most detailed record of the life and death of Jesus comes from the four Gospels and other New Testament writings. “These are all Christian and are obviously and understandably biased in what they report, and have to be evaluated very critically indeed to establish any historically reliable information...
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 17th, 2022, 9:43 am
by Cornfed
Yohan wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:35 am
With 'evidence I really mean something else which is NOT the gospel, just any other source which is not related to the Bible or to any other religious book like the Quran.
There is more or less nothing, there is no independent, no neutral source as far as I know, which proves that Jesus even existed.
There are mentions from first century Roman historians who presumably had access to Roman official records.
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 17th, 2022, 10:18 am
by Yohan
Cornfed wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 9:43 am
Yohan wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:35 am
With 'evidence I really mean something else which is NOT the gospel, just any other source which is not related to the Bible or to any other religious book like the Quran.
There is more or less nothing, there is no independent, no neutral source as far as I know, which proves that Jesus even existed.
There are mentions from first century Roman historians who presumably had access to Roman official records.
Even if Jesus existed somehow, there is no proof that he was a son of God, and there is no proof for any afterlife after we die.
While bother with religion anyway?
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 17th, 2022, 10:45 am
by Cornfed
Yohan wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 10:18 am
Even if Jesus existed somehow, there is no proof that he was a son of God, and there is no proof for any afterlife after we die.
While bother with religion anyway?
I posted videos where I discuss evidence for the resurrection of Jesus and why Christianity is necessary for science.
https://rumble.com/vq2w5o-did-the-resur ... appen.html
https://rumble.com/vqe3is-there-is-no-s ... anity.html
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 17th, 2022, 7:36 pm
by MrMan
Scholars of different persuasions accept epistles like Romans, I and II Corinthians, and Galatians as being written by Paul. These are first-century epistles. Paul writes of his interactions with Jesus' disciples Peter and John in Galatians. In I Corinthians, he mentions a number of witnesses of Jesus' resurrection from the dead. These were his contemporaries, though Paul was likely a younger contemporary to the twelve apostles. Paul's letters were written within decades of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Paul himself was a witness of the resurrection of Christ.
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 17th, 2022, 7:49 pm
by Cornfed
MrMan wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:36 pm
Paul himself was a witness of the resurrection of Christ.
Say what?
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 17th, 2022, 7:51 pm
by Cornfed
What evidence would one expect of Jesus that we don't have? Pontius Pilate clearly existed and was an important guy in Palestine at the time for 10 years, yet the only physical evidence we have of him is a few coins and a single inscription. You wouldn't expect a guy like Jesus to generate very much.
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 18th, 2022, 12:23 am
by Yohan
The only way to know that any form of a God does exist and there is an afterlife for humans is to die.
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 18th, 2022, 5:31 am
by MrMan
Cornfed wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:49 pm
MrMan wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:36 pm
Paul himself was a witness of the resurrection of Christ.
Say what?
Have you ever heard of the road to Damascus? It's mentioned in Acts 9, Acts 22, and I Corinthians 15.
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 18th, 2022, 5:32 am
by MrMan
Yohan wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 12:23 am
The only way to know that any form of a God does exist and there is an afterlife for humans is to die.
We can also know by observing creation, the works of the Creator.
God also answers prayer, sometimes quite specific prayers. There are also prophecies, healings, and things of this nature that occur from time to time.
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 18th, 2022, 6:49 am
by Cornfed
MrMan wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 5:31 am
Cornfed wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:49 pm
MrMan wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:36 pm
Paul himself was a witness of the resurrection of Christ.
Say what?
Have you ever heard of the road to Damascus? It's mentioned in Acts 9, Acts 22, and I Corinthians 15.
Having a dreamlike vision of something is not the same as witnessing it.
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 20th, 2022, 7:47 am
by MrMan
Cornfed wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 6:49 am
MrMan wrote: ↑April 18th, 2022, 5:31 am
Cornfed wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:49 pm
MrMan wrote: ↑April 17th, 2022, 7:36 pm
Paul himself was a witness of the resurrection of Christ.
Say what?
Have you ever heard of the road to Damascus? It's mentioned in Acts 9, Acts 22, and I Corinthians 15.
Having a dreamlike vision of something is not the same as witnessing it.
Paul considered himself a witness of the resurrection. The KJV uses the word 'vision' but this is not the normal Greek word for 'vision.'
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 20th, 2022, 9:35 am
by Cornfed
MrMan wrote: ↑April 20th, 2022, 7:47 am
Paul considered himself a witness of the resurrection. The KJV uses the word 'vision' but this is not the normal Greek word for 'vision.'
If I claimed to see Jesus in front of me right now would I have witnessed the resurrection? It is not a productive way to define it.
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 20th, 2022, 12:37 pm
by MrMan
Cornfed wrote: ↑April 20th, 2022, 9:35 am
MrMan wrote: ↑April 20th, 2022, 7:47 am
Paul considered himself a witness of the resurrection. The KJV uses the word 'vision' but this is not the normal Greek word for 'vision.'
If I claimed to see Jesus in front of me right now would I have witnessed the resurrection? It is not a productive way to define it.
Paul calls those who travelled with Jesus, after the resurrection, from Galillee to Jerusalem, 'witnesses to our people' (Acts 13:31) and says that he had seen the risen Lord, but does not use 'witness' to describe himself (in our translations), so I'll take your comment under advisement.
He was talking about being witnesses to 'our people'-- to a group of fellow Jews. Does the Jewishness of Jesus and the apostles bother you? How do you reconcile the antisemitism with that? Does it bother you that an early Christian in Acts 13:1 is 'called Niger'?
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Posted: April 20th, 2022, 12:41 pm
by Cornfed
MrMan wrote: ↑April 20th, 2022, 12:37 pm
Cornfed wrote: ↑April 20th, 2022, 9:35 am
MrMan wrote: ↑April 20th, 2022, 7:47 am
Paul considered himself a witness of the resurrection. The KJV uses the word 'vision' but this is not the normal Greek word for 'vision.'
If I claimed to see Jesus in front of me right now would I have witnessed the resurrection? It is not a productive way to define it.
Paul calls those who travelled with Jesus, after the resurrection, from Galillee to Jerusalem, 'witnesses to our people' (Acts 13:31) and says that he had seen the risen Lord, but does not use 'witness' to describe himself (in our translations), so I'll take your comment under advisement.
He was talking about being witnesses to 'our people'-- to a group of fellow Jews. Does the Jewishness of Jesus and the apostles bother you? How do you reconcile the antisemitism with that? Does it bother you that an early Christian in Acts 13:1 is 'called Niger'?
Your being just plain silly while talking about Christianity bothers me. You are not helping.