The Mormons, Joseph Smith, & Meadows Massacre Incident

[Winston]

The Prophecies of Joseph Smith is a well-written biography which documents the major events in Joseph’s life. 141 prophecies made by Joseph Smith, 40 prophecies about him made by other people, and 52 other supernatural experiences. All of these combine to bear witness that Joseph Smith truly was and is a prophet called and authorized by God.

Prophecies of Joseph Smith
https://ldshorizonpublishers.com/produc ... %20travels.

You have to buy the book to read it at that link. Isn't there a free version online? What percentage of these prophecies came true? Why didn't the prophecies warn Smith of when he would be assassinated so he could avoid it? You gotta wonder.

Why do you know so much about Mormonism? Are you a former Mormon or crypto Mormon?

[Winston]

BBC article on why the Mormons were persecuted.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religion ... rs_1.shtml

PBS article on why the Mormons were persecuted.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperi ... pposition/

Slavery was one of the issues and factors, as Taco said.

The Mormons were persecuted for several reasons:

* They didn't keep slaves, which was seen as a threat to the surrounding slave-owning culture at a time when the abolition of slavery was a big issue.
* Their doctrine of plural marriage was seen as a serious attack on the social and ethical rules of the period.
* The rapidly growing and tightly-knit Mormon communities had the potential to exercise considerable political power.
* They were considered outsiders who led a completely different sort of life.

https://www.pbs.org/mormons/themes/problem.html

What were the reasons for the persecutions of the Mormons in the early nineteenth century? ….

I think ... the high level of fear that was expressed about the Mormons had to do with the extent to which antebellum America was wrestling with issues of power -- church and state certainly, but also regional power. Remember, this is pre-Civil War years, where they are still trying to struggle with South/North, the meaning of the frontier and how that was going to affect the balance of power in the nation.

The Mormons are out there on the frontier, and out there as a bloc. They're also out there with specific ideas that run counter to the establishment. They believe not just in a moral conformity of state and religion; they believe that religious leaders should provide the leadership for the town as well. Even the Puritans didn't believe that.

They're building cities, and these cities are meant to stay, and they're meant to govern a geographic region, and that region keeps getting bigger and bigger as their numbers enlarge. They're gathering to them all these immigrants as well. People from different parts of the region are coming in, and eventually you'll have people outside the United States. So all of those anxieties are getting aggravated by the Latter-day Saints in the way they bring together temporal, political concerns and religious, ecclesiastical concerns.

From those who were doing the Joseph Smith Papers, there's some evidence that the expulsion of Mormons from Missouri is based on an enormous land grab, which we don't often take into account. We talk about Mormons coming in and dominating the economies, but we never think of the lands they possessed on the frontier when others were seeking to do other things with those lands.

The persecution theme is important in the way Mormons think of themselves. One historian said there's no excuse for the persecution, but the Mormons were strategic in using it. How important is persecution [as] a way of forging their identity?

Mormonism's history of persecution is part of understanding who they are and who they were and how they understood themselves to be and how they present themselves in the world. There's no question about that. I think historically that persecution became a measure of their righteousness, as religious [people] are wont to do. I think that it also shored up their external boundaries against Protestant America.

I think in the contemporary world, however, persecution largely is not [of] that much interest to Latter-day Saints. They think of themselves as having won. If there's one way to understand the importance of conversion numbers to them, I think it's a sign that they've made it, that they survived, that they triumphed over adversity. But I don't think they focus on persecution itself as being a part of their present. I don't think they have any axes to grind. …

[Winston]

PBS full documentary on the Mormons. You can watch free at the links below. It is 4 hours, and split into two parts.

https://www.pbs.org/video/frontline-the ... -part-one/

https://www.pbs.org/video/frontline-the ... -part-two/

PBS Article on the Meadows Massacre.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperi ... -massacre/

[Winston]

Funny animated cartoon about what Mormons believe about Jesus and the Mormon theology.

[Winston]

The whole movie about the Mountains Meadows Massacre called "September Dawn" is now up on YouTube. See below.



Here is a great review of it on IMDB and why it's worth watching even though Mormons don't want you to see it:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0473700/re ... ef_=tt_urv

8/10
A story that had to be told and needs to be known
Wuchakk 30 July 2012

"September Dawn" (2007) is a powerful and unforgettable film. It details the long covered-up massacre at Mountain Meadows, Utah, on September 7-11, 1857, where a group of Mormons murdered well over a hundred settlers traveling from Arkansas to California. The settlers stopped in southwest Utah to rest and resupply and the Mormons who lived there graciously allowed it. Unfortunately, in the ensuing days the decision was made to slaughter the settlers, likely due to paranoia over the brief "Utah War" that was going on at the time (between the Feds and the Mormon settlers in Utah) and also because of the Mormons' severe persecutions back East in the 1830s-40s, which provoked them to seek sanctuary in Utah in 1847.

Brigham Young was the president of the LDS denomination at the time and the governor of Utah. Was he involved in the decision to slaughter the innocent settlers? Although Mormon leaders deny this to this day it's possible for two reasons: (1.) As the LDS president and Utah governor it's unlikely that something of this magnitude would have been carried out without Young's authorization; and (2.) the leader of the slaughter, John D. Lee - the only man convicted and shot for the massacre - was the adopted son of Brigham Young. The film theorizes that the murderers took an oath of silence and that's why the massacre has been covered-up by LDS officials to this day, although Lee admitted to being the scapegoat before his execution. Chew on that.

The vibe of the film is very realistic, sort of like "Dances With Wolves," although not as compelling. For instance, the Paiute natives -- whom the Mormons hoodwinked into participating in the initial assault -- are very well done. The acting is convincing across the board with only one dubious part. In this regard "September Dawn" stands head & shoulders above roll-your-eyes Westerns of yesteryear.

Perhaps the film has such an authentic vibe because it's based on the historical facts and is fair with them. For one, the film utilizes Juanita Brooks' book and others as sources, and they happen to be devout Mormons. Secondly, the film reveals the valid reasons for the Mormon's paranoia - due to the Feds' harassment presently and also previous persecutions back East, SEVERE persecutions. Thirdly, the film details a peculiar doctrine the Mormons adhered to - "blood atonement" - that gave them the mentality that they were doing the settlers a favor by killing them (that is, the settlers would die to this temporal world but they'd be eternally blessed, or something to this effect).

Some have criticized the film for adding a romantic subplot concerning a Mormon youth and a settler girl, but this is a typical Hollywood technique, e.g. "Pearl Harbor," "Red Baron" and "Titanic." Others object to a Mormon youth cracking up after the massacre - another fictional addition - but it makes sense that an unhardened youth would lose his marbles, so to speak, after such a horrific undertaking and, again, it's portrayed in a convincing manner. Besides, who's to say something like these two subplots didn't happen? It's very possible that they did.

Although the story takes place in Southwest Utah they couldn't shoot there for obvious reasons. So they shot it in central Alberta, near Calgary. Although these locations are an acceptable substitute they lack the more arid look of SW Utah.

Bottom Line: The harsh criticism that has been dished out on this film is ridiculous and not even remotely accurate. Although it's sometimes a hard film to watch for obvious reasons, "September Dawn" is a worthy modern Western that dares to sneer at political correctness and tell the truth, at least as far as can be done by the documented facts. Sure there's some speculation and fictionalization, but all movies based on historical events do this to some extent and, like I said above, these fictionalizations are based on likely possibilities. I guarantee you that "September Dawn" is far more historically accurate than heralded films like "Braveheart."

Since the film is so well done I can only chalk up the ridiculous criticism to intolerant liberal ideology. After all, the film dares to show Christians in a positive light being led to the slaughter literally by wacko religious fanatics. Not that all Mormons back then or today are wacko religious fanatics, not at all, but that group that murdered the innocent settlers definitely were and, more specifically, those who authorized it and led the (otherwise good) men involved to carry it out.

The film runs 1 hour, 51 minutes.

GRADE: A-/B+

[Winston]

It's highly unlikely Brigham Young gave the order to attack people in the Mountain Meadows Massacre since Mormons follow the Judeo-Christian ethic of "Thou shalt not kill". You can be excommunicated for it. However, it is allowed for self defense.

Polygamy was practiced by about 1% of the Mormon Church. Some Mormons continued to practice polygamy after the law ending it was passed and were promptly excommunicated.

Like Joseph Smith, many prophets and apostles in the bible were also killed for their beliefs. it is true that Joseph Smith was a Freemason. However, Freemason's were the ones who killed him. There are different kinds of Freemasons, some are violent and some are not.

The Book of Mormon talks about 2 groups of people (Nephites, Jaredites) that lived in North America 2000 years ago. These people were destroyed due to secret combinations (freemasonry). The Book of Mormon serves as a warning to modern day Gentiles (Americans) of what will happen if they do not repent and serve god.

You forget that the Mormons in the 1950s had a doctrine called "Blood Atonement" which Brigham Young came up with. He was very fanatical about it. It states that the Mormons have a right to kill sinners, both inside their church and outside their church. Did you watch the lecture above by Will Bagley? He gives some good reasons why Brigham Young must have been involved.

1. During the commemoration of the burial of the 120 victims of the massacre, he said "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord, and I have taken a little" indicating that he saw the massacre as a form of revenge.

2. White Christian men are unlikely to murder a lot of white women and children like that, unless they were ordered to, and in Mormonism of the 1850s, everyone there was required to follow orders. It was a theocracy and dictatorship. Normal men don't massacre a group full of women and children. Think about it. Also the local leaders were unlikely to do that on their own unless they had orders from the highest level.

3. Eyewitness testimonies based on hard to find documents, have people saying that Brigham Young ordered the massacre and tried to cover it up. Authors like Will Bagley and Juanita Brooks also claim that the Mormon Church destroyed and suppressed a lot of their documents from the 1850s. Obviously if the Church destroyed documents then it has something to hide that it doesn't want you to see.

4. John D. Lee, the only man executed for the massacre and made a scapegoat, wrote in his autobiography "Mormonism Unveiled" written before his execution, that he believes Brigham Young ordered the massacre. Since he was thrown under the bus by him, he had nothing to do and came out with the truth. You can read his autobiography online for free. There are many copies of it online, including Kindle versions on Amazon. He was an insider of course who was scapegoated, so he had nothing to lose by telling the truth.

5. You can't organize an attacking militia and group of Indians in 1 or 2 days, as Will Bagley explained in the lecture above. It takes weeks to organize. This means that the massacre was likely planned in advance, perhaps right when the Arkansas wagon train arrived in Utah. That's why they were lead out into the meadows by the Mormons where they would be a sitting duck for any attack.

6. Brigham Young taught the doctrine of "Blood Atonement" which means they had the right to kill any sinner to save their soul, including people outside the church. And revenge was justified in this as well. This is based on his publicized lectures. This doctrine may not be practiced by Mormons today, but in the 1850s it definitely was a literal doctrine, especially in the violent and wild west.

So you see, there are many good reasons to believe that Brigham Young ordered the massacre. Here is the Will Bagley lecture again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSv_pDIpAd0

[Taco]

99 percent of the general information about Mormons is either biased or an outright lie. It was persecution from other "christians" that made them leave the eastern US and finally settle in Utah. The doctrine of blood atonement is also a lie.

[MrMan]

Check out this documentary on Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism. It is very pro Mormon and makes him out to be like Jesus Christ in character. He sure looks handsome, charming and charismatic in the paintings of him. Doesn't he look handsome, holy, and spiritual? lol

I don't get it though. Why did so many people join his religion and believe in him even though he offered no proof? What does Mormonism offer than mainstream Christian churches don't?

Do you all think Joseph Smith was a con-man or did he really have a supernatural visitation from higher forces or entities or gods or ETs? A crazy man can't generate a big following like that which endures for this long. There has to be something real or powerful to it for that to happen right? Even if it's not the "only way to God" it still must have some power or grip on people to be able to convert so many and last this long right?

Also if he was so kind, loving, generous, and Christ like, then why did an angry mob assassinate him and why was he arrested twice? They wouldn't do that unless he did something wrong right?

Btw why were the Mormons kicked out of Missouri and Illinois? Why didnt everyone coexist with them peacefully with freedom of religion?



Another documentary on Joseph Smith.



This documentary is too pro Mormon. It doesn't answer an obvious question: If Joseph Smith was so kind, loving and Christ-like, then why did so many mobs want to kill him? And why was he arrested twice? He must have done something wrong to get arrested and hunted by mobs right? Why doesn't this film address that? It's an obvious and logical question that any thinking viewer would ask.

I read sites that quote sources that indicate that Smith would 'spiritually' marry women. One of the women after he died during a court case over which Mormon group would get the lot of land that he prophesied would be the location of the temple put one of these 'spiritual' wives on the stand. When asked if the marriage involved carnal relations, she said that they who thought otherwise did not know Joseph Smith.

One of the girls he 'married' was 14-years-old. Apparently he had some old matronly spiritual wives who may have helped recruit these younger women.

One of his followers and a good friend was thinking of castrating him after some incident, and it wasn't long before Smith was imprisoned. There was a printing press in town and someone had a newspaper printing negative things about Joseph Smith. He declared martial law. He was arrested for this. After he was in custody, the charges were changed to treason, a capital crime. Imprisonment was having him confined to a house. Security was poor, and someone got a pistol to him. When a mob came from him for whatever he'd done or for whatever reason, he had pistol in hand when he died.

Supposedly, Smith didn't want to do the polygamy thing but was commanded to, and threatened by an angel with a flaming sword for resisting. The flaming sword-- the reason behind polygamy. But if a man has a flaming sword, does a woman want to be with him?

A friend of mine said that one of his ancestors was a part of a group of settlers going to Oregon. They took a route through Utah in the time of Brigham young. The Mormons were allegedly suspicious of the settlers and had an Indian tribe they were friendly attack them. They had new weapons, and they fought the Indians. Finally, they saw some white folks, the Mormons coming for them and thought they could get some help. The story goes that the Mormons attacked. This man's ancestor was a boy. The story goes a Mormon family took him in. In the Spring, he stole a horse to get away, and they beat him for it. The next year, he succeeded, found another outpost of civilization, and got word to the US army.

From what I've read, Brigham Young claimed all of Joseph Smith's wives in his group as his own wives and set up a big harem. I read he sent one of the husbands away on a mission, then claimed his wife.

When Utah wanted to be the state, the US government passed a law that prevented them from joining if they still held to polygamy, so the church disavowed it, though some individuals continued to be polygamist. Splinter groups that kept polygamy split off. That Warren Jeffs group is probably more like Brigham Young type Mormons in some ways.

[MrMan]

Smith supposedly translated the Book of Mormon from golden plates (where did the plates go) from 'Reformed Egyptian.'

So some people came to Smith to get him to translates some plates, kind of rectangular bell shaped 'plates.' He did, something about coming from the loins of Ham. Then the people who hired him acknowledged that they had made the plates. These plates were tested a few decades back and were consistent with materials made in the 1800s.

Smith also got one of his Mormon religious texts by translating some document about Abraham, and it had a picture which he said was the binding of Isaac. But since then, scholars have learned how to read hieroglyphics, and the book is actually an Egyptian version of the Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead.