This HA Movement is Weird

[praxis22]

I highly doubt women in the pre-1950s era had 10 partners before marriage. Virginity was still treasured in those days.

But if you take this scientific diarrhoea at face value then it really doesn't support your first post. If women nowadays want the bad boy then give them the bad boy attitude. Treat them like crap, be a misogynist because if you follow the 7 steps you'll most likely end up alone.

Dude, (If I may lapse into the vernacular) the 40's was 70 years ago, you may want to move with the times? I'm sure there are such women, but it strikes me you have to work harder to impress them, and their over-protective families than you would a normal woman. Saving yourself for marriage these days is a little passée, have you not read the porn myth?

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/

As for winding up alone, I don't see why? I got married and ended up alone, which was actually the reason I got divorced. I wanted kids, she didn't, etc. She was a lovely girl, Chinese, got married in Singapore, but she was very messed up, and not the kind I could fix without sacrificing something I took years to walk away from.

As the District Nurse who overheard me talking to my dying step-father would later tell my mother, "he's single, solvent, well adjusted, intelligent and doesn't already have kids? Does he know how rare that is?" Apparently there are many English women looking for a bloke like me, but once you shake the dust of the country from your boots, it's hard to go back, the title of the forum is right in that respect.

That said I still don't see how becoming a better man will cause me to fail, what's the thinking?

[terminator]

Good for you that you have found the girl of your dreams and you're getting another man's child too! I'd recommend not calling her much to save your money and I hope the staff at ZAGS only want small bribes from you to do their jobs.

There's a very large chance she will leave you, as she's not just a "1-passport-digger," but she wants 2 passports! However, I hope things work out.

[praxis22]

Praxis22,
You must be a woman. Only a feminist woman would call people "misogynist".

The eponymous Mr Smith, a pleasure

I would draw your attention to the following:

Like I said, it's not about Hate, and it's not about people, it's about behaviour, hence, "you have a great deal of misogyny" as opposed to "a large number of misogynists"

Posting pictures of hot sexy women is not objectifying or degrading to women. It is glorifying them. Men have desires and are heterosexual. They like beautiful women. Why do you condemn that? If you like a beautiful rose, would I say that you are objectifying or degrading it? lol

Women are judged by their beauty, youth and femininity, while men are judged by their status and resources. That's the natural way that nature has made it. Who are you to challenge what's inherent and natural?

You are nothing but a deconstructionist and brainwashed liberal feminist who degrades all that is natural.

First, I have to say that that is one of the weirder things ever said to me, I can assure you, that I am a fully functioning man, and while I think the feminism that my mothers generation fought for, was good and even necessary, the modern, "what good are men" variety I think are somewhat misguided, and indeed this speech, by Roy F. Baumeister, is good antidote to that:

http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm

This is the article I talked of reading last year. if you're a thinking man it's worthy of your time.

I'm a lot more liberal than you give me credit for, I was somewhat surprised to find the libertarian party were actually Right of the GOP, and that the so called Liberals, were actually right of the right wing (Tories) in the UK, this is why I called myself a Socialist, American liberals of any water are far too right wing, but I digress.

My critique of feminism, or at least the results of modern feminism, are based on this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... es/308654/

And indeed a conversation I just had with my (recently bereaved) mother, who complains that all the men in her life have disappeared since the death of her husband, and she is "surrounded by women" which is a thought that gives her the willies apparently.

What really struck me from that article was the following:

What my mother could envision was a future in which I made my own choices. I don’t think either of us could have predicted what happens when you multiply that sense of agency by an entire generation.

But what transpired next lay well beyond the powers of everybody’s imagination: as women have climbed ever higher, men have been falling behind. We’ve arrived at the top of the staircase, finally ready to start our lives, only to discover a cavernous room at the tail end of a party, most of the men gone already, some having never shown up—and those who remain are leering by the cheese table, or are, you know, the ones you don’t want to go out with.

It struck me that that was ineffably sad, not only that, but the article goes on to detail that many women are spending more and more time with other women, and will thus remain "alone" and unmarried. But in so doing, all the smart and educated women seem to have succeeded in doing was removing themselves from the gene pool. That in saying, (though I haven't caught up with modern feminism for a while) that "we're just as good as men" that a huge opportunity has been missed. Most of the women who do climb to the top of the professional ladder do so by emulating men. Christine Lagarde, (head of the IMF) seems to be an exception in that regard. Women are more risk averse than men, not as creative in many ways, (I'm thinking here of financial "innovation") if there had been more of them on banks boards and in government long ago, the financial crisis may not have happened.

When I got married the first time, I did so mostly on the back of the thought that the woman I would marry was "unlike any woman I had ever met" which I thought was a good thing at the time, I was later to learn to my cost, why. But not before learning other lessons, such as agreeing for the sake of not arguing and an easy life is in many ways abdicating responsibility. This is what women complain about when they talk about their men as having another child. You cannot give away your power, nor can somebody else take it. But at the same time you have to learn to disagree with women on a level playing field, without getting angry. without violence.

In hindsight I came to realise, that in my marriage I had played the role of the woman, I had been passive, she had been aggressive. It was perhaps as part of the arc of that that I found myself being the one that asked for the divorce, much as women ask for divorce in 70% of cases. Though recently I have been ruminating on the words of Buddha,

Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.

and this

There is shame in victory, and much to think about, and that is enough until we we arrive and are young and fertile again.

I wish my ex no ill will, it's just a shame she didn't grow like I did.

Life is about growing old, and growing up. realising that most women find porn objectionable. I'm no stranger to it myself, If I'm not mistaken you avatar is from Domai right? But once you have a woman what do you need the porn for? Nobody is cutting off your balls here, but a life, a relationship with women, means not being antagonistic, you wouldn't want to see them mooning over old pictures either right? The pictures may differ but it's the emotional response we have to them that counts right? this is after all where men and women differ.

As for challenging what is "natural" I'm not, I would again point you to this:

Yet this is exactly what men like me, (and indeed all older Western men) are doing, looking for younger women in Eastern Europe, Asia, and South America. It's a trade as old as time, Youth & Beauty for stability & (financial) Security. Because if they wanted a young, poor and unstable man they could find plenty of those at home.

I feel you have perhaps misunderstood me, and done that most female of things, which is react to what you think I said, as opposed to the words I used, would you like to re-read and try again?

deconstructionist and brainwashed liberal feminist who degrades all that is natural.

It's natural to shit in the woods, but we also have indoor plumbing. We are not savages, foaming at the mouth and roaming the savannah looking for fresh roadkill

[praxis22]

[Andrewww]

Dude, (If I may lapse into the vernacular) the 40's was 70 years ago, you may want to move with the times? I'm sure there are such women, but it strikes me you have to work harder to impress them, and their over-protective families than you would a normal woman. Saving yourself for marriage these days is a little passée, have you not read the p**n myth?

There's a big difference between a virgin and a woman with 10 ex-boyfriend don't you think ? Both of those are a bit extreme. I don't think I would have the time and patience to look for a virgin (not to mention chasing one) but I'm not ok with the 10 ex-boyfriends either.

Being well adjusted, intelligent and single without kids is not enough in North American society. Maybe for a 30 year old woman past her prime that's perfect but the young 20 years olds will pick the broke, hypergamous gangster/rapper/failed-artist-fulltime-bartender over you anytime. That's why being a better man won't land you a better woman. It's the sort of advice you get from your mother, your sister, your female cousin or some pick-up artist wanna-be that just doesn't resonate in real life.

[jboy]

I haven't done this for years, (forum life) I'd forgotten places like this existed

Strangely, I only subscribed to add a comment about James Altucher, he's very good. but having had a small look about this place is mad.

You're looking for women, yet you have a great deal of misogyny, and Avatars of women in various states of undress. Not to mention the more lurid pictures from AFA, etc.

Perhaps I should explain, I'm in the process, ZAGS permitting, I'll be married early this year to a woman with a two year old son, and I will have an instant family, that will be good.

However, this isn't cheap, no matter how you do it, it isn't cheap, it will cost you, (conservative estimate) approx $10-16K, You're going to need a house/apartment and a steady job, which given the state of the global financial system going forward may be rough.

If you are living in America, you're going to be burning a lot of money on phone calls, I'm averaging 1-2 trips a month to Ukraine, and I'm still burning through money on the phone.

Pro-Tip: you can buy a cheap SIM in Ukraine on the Life:) (the smiley is part of the brand/name, it's red.) network, which allows her to call you at a fraction of the price you call her, it cost 15gr, (12 copeks a minute) Also in country it's the best network to be on, good internet connection. Make sure you pack an Android phone, Google translate and maps are life savers. Also, you can use Google talk, (buy her an android phone) to save on SMS charges, which mount up, and then you don't have a 140 character limit.

If you're doing phone calls, you're going to have to deal with a long distance relationship, that is hard, even at close proximity like I am it's still hard, for both of you.

You need to understand the culture, there is Russian Culture, there is Ukrainian culture, for the simple reason that you can take the woman out of the country but you cannot take the country out of the woman. I had problems at the start, because I still didn't understand what was expected, so I defaulted to being a Western, "feminised" man, that only serves to get up their nose, and they are not used to men agreeing with them, at least not for an easy life like we do.

It is my contention/opinion that the reason why Western men get scammed so much is because they don't act like men, not the men these women are used to, and these women live and breathe men, if they're not married by the time they're 25 they are unlikely to get married at all. Beauty is the least of their assets, they are incredibly well educated, my Fiancée speaks three languages and is learning a fourth, they are cultured, love to read, (when was the last time you read a book for pleasure?) They are schooled in the classics from an early age. And then they are placed in front of a Westerner, who thinks he can buy her, and offers to buy whatever she looks at. She looks at you, sees you are weak, dismisses you and takes the gifts/money. And it is easy money, not only that they can go on courses to learn how to press your buttons, you're a fungible resource.

If you want the girl, you're going to have to grow up and be a man, as she understands them, because only when she thinks you're a man, will she feel safe being a woman. Otherwise it's a dog eat dog world out there and she's probably getting paid 1-2000gr ($1-200) a month, Average rent, $3-500, this is why she still lives with her family, so they can split the rent. If you don't understand this, you will be taken like a rookie. I had to fight for that insight, benefit from it, "a man is known by his actions"

A good start would be here: (though I think there is a newer edition)

7 steps to manhood:

'Fixing it' with your father. - Alive or dead he's all you've got.
Finding sacredness in your sexuality. - Ditch the p**n.
Meeting your partner in equal terms. - Your wife is not your mother.
Engage actively with your kids. - Be the role model you wanted, play.
Learning to have real male friends. - You need emotional support.
Finding your heart in your work. - Love what you do.
Freeing the wild spirit. - Get outside, commune, forget your fears.

If you are seriously thinking of going, and statistically, only 10% that write will go, then by all means go on a tour, the first time, get a feel. But then go read "a girl like me, 2005" by Elena Solomon, (she runs Elena's models, Russian, married a white South African) you can find it for free on pdf sharing sites. Or pay for it. There was another one I paid for, "so you want to marry a Ukrainian lady" or something like that, mostly for background. You need to understand the culture.

Also understand the agency model, they know if you go to see one woman, you fail and get discouraged they lose a customer. If you're a woman, and you don't meet the guy at the airport, and watch him leave from the airport, then you can be sure he's going to see other women, kid in the candy store style, "you cannot bargain for love" nor can you audition or interview for it. If you're serious about this, do as Elena suggests, go see one woman at a time. Rent an apartment. No woman will join you in your hotel room, only hoes do that.

You are not buying a woman, you are looking for a wife, and the mother of your kids. (Because if you're looking for a woman of child bearing age, 19 -40, and they don't already have a lot of kids, they are going to want one, and want one with you.) If a woman came up to you in a bar, wearing daisy dukes and a bikini, you'd think she was easy, didn't respect herself. So why are you looking at/interested in profiles with public bikini pictures? I'm sure you see what I'm getting at. Sure the bikini pictures are hot, but that's a fantasy, not a real woman, not a real relationship.

For those that make the trip, however you make it, I wish you luck, the rest of you should probably go back to surfing the NSFW board.

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