Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

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Winston
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

Post by Winston »

alfredo wrote:
November 3rd, 2017, 6:09 pm
Ok Thanks
You've made three posts now I think. So you can PM Rock now. Have you tried PMing him yet?
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

Post by Winston »

Btw @HouseMD why can't the medical profession just do this?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/153981
Endoscopic retrograde cholangiopancreatolography

When a person with gallstones cannot have surgery or ursodeoxycholic acid, they may undergo endoscopic retrograde cholangiopancreatolography (ERCP), which requires a local anesthetic. A flexible fiber-optic camera, or endoscope, goes into mouth, through the digestive system, and into the gallbladder.

An electrically heated wire widens the opening of the bile duct. The stones are then removed or left to pass into the intestine.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20364895
Procedure to remove stones. Your doctor may perform a procedure called endoscopic retrograde cholangiopancreatography (ERCP) to remove any stones blocking the bile ducts or cystic duct.
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Winston
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

Post by Winston »

alfredo wrote:
October 30th, 2017, 11:22 pm
Could ROCK please let me know who and how to contact the Dr and place where he said he went to get the gallbladder sparing surgery done.. I am in Canada and do not speak Chinese and am looking for good Dr to get a large gallstone removed but save the gallbladder. In Canada only option is to remove GallBladder.. Thanks in advance..
Hi @alfredo. I spoke to Rock online and he gave me this website of his hospital in Dongguan, China. The website is in Chinese though so you will have to use Google Translate feature on Chrome browser to translate it automatically into English.

http://en.dgbdw.cn/html/list_565.html

There is another center in Guangzhou, China that has an English site caters to foreigners. However, that one seems to cost a lot more, over triple the price. See here:

http://nogallstones.com
http://nogallstones.com/surgery-price

Their other site which has pretty much the same info:

http://elikimclinic.com
http://elikimclinic.com/gallstones-remo ... -cost.html

It would appear that medical centers that cater to local Chinese (like Rock's center) cost a lot less, and the ones that cater to foreigners cost a lot more. Rock's center in Dongguan charged him about $2000 USD when he was there. But the one above that caters to foreigners cost $6700. A big difference.

Try contacting both and see what they say. They should have contact info on their sites.
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

Post by Winston »

@HouseMD need your urgent advice on something.

I only have mild pains and aches in my right side. They come and go, but are recurring and usually come at night while I sleep and only when I move or toss and turn, not when I'm still. No fever or vomiting or the "severe attack" that people describe. But on ultrasound, my gallbladder looks bloated and enlarged. Is my condition reversible or should I get some kind of surgery?

The doctors here in Taiwan of course want to remove my gallbladder and are pushing me to do it. But they won't tell me how many stones I have or what size they are, they just want me to hurry and do the surgery. That makes me skeptical and suspicious. Should I demand to see my x-ray and CT scans to see my stones? If so, what should I look for? I don't know how to read x-rays and CT scans.

Thanks.
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

Post by Winston »

gsjackson wrote:
August 2nd, 2020, 11:03 am
Winston wrote:
August 2nd, 2020, 10:31 am
gsjackson wrote:
January 24th, 2017, 7:04 pm
I'm told that any time they get someone (i.e., cash cow with insurance) in the hospital with internal problems of indeterminate origin, they want to take out the gall bladder. Must be the most expensive procedure they can get away with without severe and immediate side effects.

Three months ago I went into the hospital with pancreatitis. There wasn't the slightest doubt in my mind that the cause was having taken more prescription drugs in the previous six weeks than I had in the rest of my life combined, owing to knee replacement surgery -- opiates, etc.

But the side effects of prescription drugs is the 800 pound gorilla on the dining room table that doctors aren't allowed to look at. So a ditzy blonde "hospitalist" and Arab surgeon teamed up on me while I was hooked up to an IV to get me to let them take out my gall bladder. The blonde showed me a picture of something circular with lots of dots in it, clearly implying it was an x-ray of my gall bladder with multiple gall stones in it. Meanwhile the Arab played the bad cop and told me about all his patients who died from pancreatitis. Told me I needed to "think on a higher level" (I was obviously reluctant to have one highly invasive procedure just six weeks after another).

Long story shorter, the next day they decide maybe it isn't the gall bladder, and are off chasing some other theory. I check out of the hospital "against medical advice," go see my GP a few days later, he looks over the hospital records and informs me to my great surprise that neither the ultrasound x-ray or an MRI showed any gall stones at all.

Dodged a bullet getting out of that hospital intact. Anyway, a long way of saying I agree, Winston, that the gall bladder probably has some purpose, and anyone should be very leery when they're told while vulnerable in the hospital that it needs too be removed.
Wow @gsjackson so doctors have colluded to deliberately lie to you about your gallbladder? Geez. Where was this? In a foreign country or the US? If this happened in the US you can sue them for conspiracy and deceit. I thought doctors just say whatever they are programmed to say. I didn't know they would knowingly lie. For what? Profit from surgeries? Most doctors are rich so why would they need to resort to lying like a low scumbag? I hate it when they use fear to try to get you to do the surgery. That's sick. They seem overly eager about this kind of surgery. That is a red flag.

Can you see gallstones in an ultrasound or x-ray? Are they visible? They told me I had stones but had no pictures of it from my x-ray or ultrasound or CT scan.
Tucson Medical Center. I don't know for sure whether they were deliberately lying to me, but it would seem like they were. Yanking a gallbladder is one of hospitals' main cash cows, so yes it should raise a red flag. They got off the surgery thing shortly after a social worker type learned that I'm licensed to practice law.

That's why an ultrasound x-ray and MRI were taken -- to see if I had gallstones. According to my GP, both indicated that I did not.

To add an anecdote: Someone I know had his gallbladder removed a year, year and a half ago, and it triggered virtually every health issue imaginable. He's now on dialysis, and spends almost all his time in the hospital dealing with one health problem or another. They've been like dominoes falling ever since the gallbladder surgery. His life is basically over at 59. You can, of course, hear plenty of stories about uneventful gallbladder removals, but there are no guarantees.
Btw @gsjackson what's the difference between pancreatitis pain and gallbladder pain? They sound like the same thing when I read about them below.

https://www.virginiamason.org/acute-pancreatitis

If I ask them to show me my x-ray and CT scan results, how do I know what to look for? I usually just see organs in white. I can't see any red inflammation. Should gallstones be visible and countable? Earlier tonight I went to an ultrasound clinic to get a second opinion. He said he couldn't tell me how many gallstones I have, and that it would only be known if a doctor removes my gallbladder and counts the stones after the surgery. However all the online articles said that ultrasound should be able to see and count the stones. So that's not consistent with what I read.

Suppose I go to the hospital and demand to see my x-ray scans and CT scans. What do I look for? It's just a bunch of organs in white. How can I determine anything from that?
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

Post by andrewfitzpatrick »

I needed mine removed 2 years ago. I'm in the best shape of my life now and haven't had any negative consequences.
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

Post by Winston »

http://nogallstones.com/articles/23-gallbladder-removal

No more gallbladder removal
Published on 19.01.2012

Gallbladder removal doesn't need anymore

Surgery to remove the gallbladder, known as a cholecystectomy, is one of the most common surgeries done in the United States, performed on more than half a million people each year. The surgery is chosen when other methods, such as medications or ultrasound to break up the stones (lithotripsy) have not been successful in relieving symptoms or eliminating the stones.

Conventional cholecystecomy involves removing the gallbladder by one of two methods: laparoscopically through four small incisions in the abdomen with the assistance of a tiny video camera; or through one large incision in the abdomen. Both methods are associated with side effects and complications, although the laparoscopic technique, which is more common, is less risky.

A team of scientists in China, however, have developed a device that allows removal of gallstones without taking out the gallbladder. The patented, specially designed endoscope allows clinicians to locate and remove gallstones and other gallbladder lesions by sucking them out of the body like a vacuum.

In the American Institute of Physics’ Review of Scientific Instruments, the scientists describe how the ultrasonic probe at the end of the endoscope can find even the smallest gallstones. The new device also has a channel so fluids can be injected into the gallbladder to make it easier for clinicians to do the procedure, and it also can connect to any type of camera system.

Use of the new device was compared with another type of endoscope at two hospitals, and there was reportedly “no significant difference” in safety between the two methods. In addition, the authors report that the new device provides better flexibility, reliability, and image quality than existing methods.

Gallstones are pebble-like objects that form when liquid (bile) stored in the gallbladder hardens. Bile is a mixture of water, proteins, fats, cholesterol, bile salts, and bilirubin, which is a waste product.

Gallstones can be as small as a grain of sand or as large as a golf ball. Two types of gallstones can occur: those composed largely of hardened cholesterol, which is the case about 80% of the time; or pigment stones, which are composed of bilirubin.

The exact cause of gallstones is not known, although there are established risk factors. Some of them include

* Diet high in cholesterol and fat and low in fiber
* Rapid weight loss, which causes the liver to secrete extra cholesterol into bile, which in turn can cause gallstones
* Being overweight, as this reduces the amount of bile salts in bile, which in turn increases cholesterol
* Age over 60, because the body secretes more cholesterol into bile as we age
* Use of cholesterol-lowering drugs, which can raise the amount of cholesterol secreted into bile

Development of this new device that makes gallbladder removal unnecessary is a significant advance and will be most welcome by individuals who develop gallstones that need to be removed. The new device is not available in the United States and any other countries.

Sources:
American Institute of Physics, paper accepted for publication in the Review of Scientific Instruments
National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases

http://www.emaxhealth.com/1275/gallston ... nnecessary
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

Post by Neo »

Winston wrote:
August 2nd, 2020, 11:18 am
Ok thanks for all your answers @HouseMD. It seems that whatever God or Creator that designed the human body left a lot of flaws, such as the gallbladder being so fragile and easy to get inflammed or infected by stone formation, etc. That's bad design, like an accident waiting to happen. A bad programming flaw, so to speak. Why couldn't our Creator design the gallbladder with a bigger bile duct so stones couldn't get trapped in there? Or disable the ability to form stones in the gallbladder? Or have some repair mechanism or backup organ remove any stones that form in the gallbladder? That would make sense.

I guess even God or the Creator is not perfect. This is just one of millions of reasons why God/Creator isn't perfect, whereas there is zero reason to believe that God must be perfect, regardless of what Christian doctrines say or what Christians like @Neo believe. Of course, they will always say, "God did create humans and the world to be perfect, but man sinned in the Garden of Eden, so he brought ruin into God's perfect creation." But of course, that doesn't hold water, since the Garden of Eden story can only be metaphorical, not literal, since it's too problematic as a literal story for many reasons we've discussed before.

No, it just means either you are unwilling or unable to accept the story is true. Death entered into the world through sin, and the punishment, is that man must die. Also, because of that sin, Adam and Eve were denied access to the Tree of Life, which means no eternal life or eternal health in this life. The Bible is correct. It is just some people don't have faith and the Holy Spirit for faith and understanding.
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

Post by Winston »

Should You Remove Your Gallbladder Because of a Stone? - Dr. Eric Berg



Wow this comment sounds like my dad's situation. Maybe my dad's doctors scammed him? If so, can we sue them?
D N
11 months ago
I declined to remove my gall bladder ten years ago. My doctor was a professor at Columbia, and he lied to me ... he said that gall bladders cannot be healed. I just somehow knew that was wrong. I changed my diet and went back a bit over a year later and tested normal. When I asked him how that could have happened, he just silently flipped through my chart like he was thinking about something else and didn't hear me. I learned a lot from that experience. I still have my gall bladder. I now understand how it works, why I need it, and how I can support it in the future. Knowledge is good.

D N
11 months ago
@Sebastián Pauluchak Hi! I did not have stones. They told me I had a diseased gall bladder, I suppose due to an observed problem with the fat that was injected. Anyway, I go with keto with intermittent fasting, and then I do an extended fast three or four times a year. I know there is a gall bladder flush protocol for stones, but I have never used it. If you add ox bile supplements to your diet, you may get some relief from the discomfort. I wish you all the best!
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

Post by MrMan »

Winston wrote:
August 2nd, 2020, 12:23 pm
Btw @HouseMD why can't the medical profession just do this?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/153981
Endoscopic retrograde cholangiopancreatolography

When a person with gallstones cannot have surgery or ursodeoxycholic acid, they may undergo endoscopic retrograde cholangiopancreatolography (ERCP), which requires a local anesthetic. A flexible fiber-optic camera, or endoscope, goes into mouth, through the digestive system, and into the gallbladder.

An electrically heated wire widens the opening of the bile duct. The stones are then removed or left to pass into the intestine.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20364895
Procedure to remove stones. Your doctor may perform a procedure called endoscopic retrograde cholangiopancreatography (ERCP) to remove any stones blocking the bile ducts or cystic duct.
I would have preferred that. I had these horrible painful feelings that would come and go, kind of like contractions, in my abdomen. it was my wife and I's anniversary. We were on the beach at night and about to go home and go to bed (for round 2) and I got the worst pain of my life. They told me if I didn't have surgery, I might die. I spent a night in the hospital and decided against it. I'd research it more and see if there was a way to save my gallbladder. The night in the hospital cost me about $2000. I was in grade school and had opted for the health insurance that paid 80% instead of 90%-- big mistake.

I tried epsom salts and olive oil. I didn't know of any doctors offering the procedure you prescribe. I don't think there were any in my part of the US. The doctors in the US generally remove the gall bladder.

So, over a year later, I had another episode and let them cut it out. I was on a much better insurance deal. The specialist went into detail on the damage caused. They'd asked me if I drank. I had pancreatitus, and I don't drink. The gall and infection had backed up. The doctor told me I needed my gall bladder removed, or I could die, so I went for it. I spent a few days eating jello being fed from a tube. I hadn't really seen Food Network hardly at all, but it became very interesting. I got one nurse to give me some icecream once, one of those little round containers. That was a treat. They probably made a mistake. Finally, they let me eat. The incisions were small. They were ugly because I had blood mixed with medical superglue, but that eventually washed off and I have the smallest scars that I'd probably have to point out for someone to notice.

I forgot to ask for them to keep the stones. I would have liked to have seen what caused everything to clog up. In grad school, I spent a lot of time sitting and sometimes laying down working on my computer. usually, I rode a bike a couple of miles a day, but I'd gotten out of the habit for a couple of months, and I wonder if that contributed. It may just be genetics or eating palm oil in Indonesia or something else I could have prevented.

But I wish I could have kept the gall bladder. The doctors I talked to said the stones just come back and you have the problem later. Given that it can cost $10K or 20K (or more, I'm just guessing and I don't remember the price from many years ago) having your gallbladder periodically emptied is just way too expensive for the average person anyway.

And having an endoscopy tube put down your throat isn't natural. My mom had that for a test and it messed up her singing voice. She's not a professional, but it changed her voice. It's not a good feeling. I have been assured, though, that they use a different tube for the other end than they use for the throat. I asked doctors and other people who work in hospitals about that, because I figured there was a good chance they used the same equipment for both. They say it's a different kind.

I didn't notice noticeable weight gain that I could attribute to that. My weight seems to be the same or follow lifestyle habits, allowing for changing with aging. I do get queasy if I drink a lot of something cold, like an Icee. I used to occasionally get this nasty gall-bladder-queasiness that reminded me of the gall bladder pain on occasion before the operation. I used to love those things. I don't know if that has anything at all to do with aging.
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

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My wife saw a couple of doctors about sinusitus in Indonesia, and the first one did seem a little like the automechanic you describe. He talked about a sinus infection getting worse and worse until it damaged the brain. My wife and I left there, thought through what he said and realized it seemed like he was trying to manipulate us into her getting an operation. But the next guy kept giving her different kinds of antibiotics. We did finally decide on a small operation to fix a deviated septum, and she was never diagnosed with sinusitus after that.

I suppose the doctors could have been selling me an operation, but they all seemed to agree that I had a pretty bad infection and damage to internal organs, and also the intense pain I had experienced was a selling point. With my insurance, financially, I could have the problem taken care of at that time, so I opted for the operation. Other medical options weren't open to me at the time.
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

Post by Winston »

MrMan,
Nice story. Between the time you had your first gallbladder attack and a year later, didn't you try to take care of your gallbladder by not eating fatty foods or sugary foods or dairy products? You're supposed to do that.

Also, did you try any liver/gallbladder flush protocols? A lot of people online say they work, they can't all be lying. Some even have proof from the stones that came out, which were found to be cholesterol stones from the gallbladder, not fake stones as critics allege.

I didn't understand why you mention endoscopy tube. They don't use that during a gallbladder operation, unless they are using it to suck out the stones only. Do they do that in the US? That would be preferable. I'm sure it would have been a clean tube. lol

Why do doctors always say the stones will come back? Rock's stones never came back after he had his stones removed.

Did the doctors tell you the size of your stones and how many there were?
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

Post by HouseMD »

Winston wrote:
August 3rd, 2020, 6:46 pm
MrMan,
Nice story. Between the time you had your first gallbladder attack and a year later, didn't you try to take care of your gallbladder by not eating fatty foods or sugary foods or dairy products? You're supposed to do that.

Also, did you try any liver/gallbladder flush protocols? A lot of people online say they work, they can't all be lying. Some even have proof from the stones that came out, which were found to be cholesterol stones from the gallbladder, not fake stones as critics allege.

I didn't understand why you mention endoscopy tube. They don't use that during a gallbladder operation, unless they are using it to suck out the stones only. Do they do that in the US? That would be preferable. I'm sure it would have been a clean tube. lol

Why do doctors always say the stones will come back? Rock's stones never came back after he had his stones removed.

Did the doctors tell you the size of your stones and how many there were?
https://www.aafp.org/afp/2014/0515/p795.html

If you want to know the general medical approach. Gallstones over 5 mm in size become far less likely to pass spontaneously, and at 10 mm they pose risk of obstruction if they enter the bile duct, which can lead to ascending infection of the pancreas and gallbladder and ultimately death. Above 15 mm, most stones cannot enter the bile duct and will basically cause intermittent obstruction depending on their location, resulting in biliary colic. I am not going to advise you with regard to your gallbladder situation, but I will say that prolonged obstruction predisposes toward necrosis, porcelain gallbladder, pancreatitis, and other undesirable conditions.

We tend to use ultrasound for evaluation of stones, not CT scan. You can get a good idea of whether there is biliary sludge vs small stones vs large stones quickly, cheaply, and without dosing someone with radiation. Stone size is not the only factor in deciding whether to pull a gallbladder, and they're really not a moneymaker so people aren't trying to rip you off like they are with, say, spinal surgery, which makes a ton of money but has almost no evidence base for chronic back pain. A surgeon makes about as much from lancing a couple of boils in the office as they do from pulling out a gallbladder, they're kind of known as a tedious annoyance of a procedure.
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Re: Should your gallbladder ever be removed?

Post by Winston »

Good news. The pain in my right side has subsided after taking some gallbladder supplements from iherb.com. It only occasionally returns, about once a week maybe, and the pain is only mild. However, the stone seems to still be there, otherwise there would be no mild pain even. I'll have to do the full gallbladder flush at some point, which I linked above, to try to get rid of the stones. A lot of people online, including a relative of mine, said the liver flush really does work and really does release stones from your body. You can pick them up from the toilet and analyze them and see that they are real stones, not soap balls like critics and establishment defenders claim.

Here are the supplements I'm taking from iherb.com. It includes a liquid dropper called "stone breaker" that I put into water too.

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Christopher-s- ... -Caps/6359

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Natural-Factor ... sules/2587

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Amazon-Therape ... 30-ml/8995

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